And if you're rounding up people you've stripped citizenship from, you don't have anywhere to send them--because their former countries won't take them back. Why should they?
The Republican National Convention hit rock bottom on its third day in Milwaukee, Wis., on July 17, with a sea of signs calling for “Mass Deportation Now.” If former president Donald Trump is elected for a second term, he and his advisers promise to remove from the U.S., via forced expulsions and deportation camps, as many as 20 million people—a number larger than the country’s current estimated population of undocumented residents. Put into effect, this scheme would devolve quickly into a vast 21st-century version of concentration camps, with predictably brutal results.
Pitzer's piece roots Trump's plan - well, Stephen Miller's - in the foul history of detention camps and is a good companion to the Radley Balko piece on logistics @Crœsos linked to upthread.
As Frodo pointed out to Sam as a star managed to briefly shine through a gap in the reek and fume of Mordor. But in the meantime Sauron is still there.
Reviving this thread because I have strung together some really awful stuff, and if I can do it, so can Trump and Stephen Miller. But maybe I'm catastrophizing? Not that catastrophes can't happen.
Unauthorized workers are about 5% of the US workforce, give or take, and they do demanding, frequently badly paid labor that we all depend on; they are farmworkers, construction workers, maids, caregivers, and restaurant workers.
Forced prison labor is legal in the US. Banning forced prison labor was on the ballot in California this week, and it looks like that proposition is losing, so even here in so-called liberal California, a majority of the electorate feels okay with involuntary servitude for inmates.
Stocks in private prison companies are soaring. Their executives were gleeful in earnings calls this week: "On the earnings calls, two of the largest players in the private prison industry ― GEO Group and Core Civic ― demonstrated broad agreement on the implications of a second Trump term, saying it was likely to increase government funding of private contracts for immigration detention, electronic tracking devices, and the transport of detainees within the United States and to other countries."
Is there anything to prevent unauthorized laborers in the US from becoming forced labor?
From history, it doesn’t look as though interned Japanese during WW2 were forced to work (though I think some got release for harvesting). But having demonised the immigrants, the notion of incarcerating them and forcing them to work while “due process” confirms their deportation might very well be part of the process. The argument “If we do have to keep them a bit for due process, they might as well work for their keep” seems pretty Trumpist.
Reviving this thread because I have strung together some really awful stuff, and if I can do it, so can Trump and Stephen Miller. But maybe I'm catastrophizing? Not that catastrophes can't happen.
Unauthorized workers are about 5% of the US workforce, give or take, and they do demanding, frequently badly paid labor that we all depend on; they are farmworkers, construction workers, maids, caregivers, and restaurant workers.
Forced prison labor is legal in the US. Banning forced prison labor was on the ballot in California this week, and it looks like that proposition is losing, so even here in so-called liberal California, a majority of the electorate feels okay with involuntary servitude for inmates.
Stocks in private prison companies are soaring. Their executives were gleeful in earnings calls this week: "On the earnings calls, two of the largest players in the private prison industry ― GEO Group and Core Civic ― demonstrated broad agreement on the implications of a second Trump term, saying it was likely to increase government funding of private contracts for immigration detention, electronic tracking devices, and the transport of detainees within the United States and to other countries."
Is there anything to prevent unauthorized laborers in the US from becoming forced labor?
There's a corollary to this that makes it worse: prison labour displaces real jobs and suppresses wages. 10 million detainees could end up displacing not only farm workers but warehouse workers, and almost anything where people can be closely supervised. What happens when Amazon distribution centres are co-sited with internment camps? Tesla factories? Great way for Elon to deal with the allegations of poor working conditions. Every union-busting pos will be clamouring for detainee labour, and every unscrupulous employer in dispute will threaten the same.
And that's when they'll start stripping citizenship from naturalised citizens, citing "fraud" or "flaws in the assessment process" to swell the numbers.
This Bloomberg article is behind a pay wall, but you can clearly view the headline, "Undocumented Immigrants in US Pay Almost $100 Billion in Taxes."
I'm not sure what MAGA has in mind re: accounting for this Federal revenue. Further cutting the taxes of the uber-wealthy and corporations won't help. The federal government may not pay them to work, but there's huge overhead required to fully maintain any workforce.
There's a chilling parallel here: Jews in Nazi Germany were dismissed from paid employment because they were Jews, and then put in concentration camps because they weren't working. And worked to death.
There's a chilling parallel here: Jews in Nazi Germany were dismissed from paid employment because they were Jews, and then put in concentration camps because they weren't working. And worked to death.
The exact same thought occurred to me when I read this thread yesterday. Trump is about to start on a downward path which could lead to a veritable Hell on Earth.
Though if you folks have practical thoughts about steps we on the ground can take (bearing in mind our relative poverty and powerlessness—that is, please don’t tell me to somehow bring into being a mass protest movement or similar)—I’d be grateful. For instance, we’re considering how we might get some of the remaining non-citizens naturalized before all hell breaks loose. I CAN teach citizenship and English classes, but finding the $710 dollars per application is out of our league. I’m planning to consult with what local resources might cooperate… I’m afraid most of us are maxed out already.
Though if you folks have practical thoughts about steps we on the ground can take (bearing in mind our relative poverty and powerlessness—that is, please don’t tell me to somehow bring into being a mass protest movement or similar)—I’d be grateful. For instance, we’re considering how we might get some of the remaining non-citizens naturalized before all hell breaks loose. I CAN teach citizenship and English classes, but finding the $710 dollars per application is out of our league. I’m planning to consult with what local resources might cooperate… I’m afraid most of us are maxed out already.
Money, at least, might be susceptible to crowdfunding. I think there would be an appetite from people inside and outside the US who are appalled at Trump for something tangible but low effort on their part.
Yes, crowdfunding would be something I'd be interested in contributing towards, though it wouldn't be huge amounts. Lots of small amounts do add up, of course.
How would it work? If, say, there are people with whom @Lamb Chopped is acquainted, and for whom $710 each might mean greater safety, an online appeal to those on both sides of the Pond (and elsewhere) might do the trick.
Yes, it might end up as money sunk and lost, but surely worth a try?
People who catastrophized in 1930s Germany weren't wrong, and if they acted on those thoughts to save themselves, it very much did help.
Predicting and planning, are not catastrophising, and of some practical help - just declaring “a veritable Hell on Earth” is not much more use than declaring repeatedly “we’re all doomed” a la Private Fraser in Dad’s Army.
People who catastrophized in 1930s Germany weren't wrong, and if they acted on those thoughts to save themselves, it very much did help.
Predicting and planning, are not catastrophising, and of some practical help - just declaring “a veritable Hell on Earth” is not much more use than declaring repeatedly “we’re all doomed” a la Private Fraser in Dad’s Army.
Yes, I used words which would have been better left un-used. My bad.
Don't know what's locally available to you, @Lamb Chopped -- here in SoCal there are lots of immigrants advocacy groups. Nationally I'd probably look to something like Immigrant Defense Project for help for non-citizens.
I know with my former son in law, it was more than just paying the $710 filing fee. His finances were lousy. Daughter helped him to develop a budget and pay down all debts. He had a charge of auto theft that was on the books. They had to hire a lawyer to get that expunged. Then there was getting the green card and showing he could be a productive citizen--he was always a hard worker. I think all in all the cost of him becoming a citizen was more than $5,000.
Then we had to go for a Queen's pardon so he could visit Canada--but that is another story for another day.
Now, we are beginning to wonder if all that expense may unravel. He was an undocumented immigrant. He had a felony conviction (first time and only offense--served only probation). Though it was expunged, there is still a gap in the record. Could the Trump deportation program exploit that gap.
Thanks, Ruth. I'm afraid the biggest need we'll have is the one we can't fill--because pro bono legal help is practically nonexistent here, and has been for years. And when it comes to immigration, it's even more impossible. Yet that's almost certainly going to be what we need. It's what we've needed these thirty years (and had for a brief three years before the person moved on).
Still, knowledge is helpful, even if we can't really implement it. (We, too, have a number of people with convictions--people who've straightened themselves out and gone on to become (usually) husbands, fathers, and just generally decent human beings. I'm not looking at the near future with a whole lot of hope, here.)
Well, it makes sense for those most closely affected to access whatever resources they have at hand.
I still think that crowdfunding - if necessary - is a way for those of us who are not directly involved to at least offer a little practical help, and I'm prepared to put my money where my mouth is.
Well, it makes sense for those most closely affected to access whatever resources they have at hand.
I still think that crowdfunding - if necessary - is a way for those of us who are not directly involved to at least offer a little practical help, and I'm prepared to put my money where my mouth is.
Ditto.
I don't know about the US but in the UK one of the biggest sources of free legal advice is students studying law. Obviously that's not always going to be as good as an immigration specialist but are there any local colleges you could hook up with? A lot of students (and faculty) will be looking for ways to fight back too.
I'm not saying we shouldn't crowdfund--absolutely this would be lovely, if we can find someone to run it, as I'm personally overwhelmed and can't take on the project. If someone's interested, let me know?
We're also right at the beginning of assessing what community needs are going to look like given the election, which means Mr Lamb and I need to do some surveying. That will give us a better idea of exactly what target we're shooting for. How many people, and so forth.
Acres of orange fields sat unpicked in Kern County this week as word of Border Patrol raids circulated through Messenger chats and images of federal agents detaining laborers spread on local Facebook groups.
The Border Patrol conducted unannounced raids throughout Bakersfield on Tuesday, descending on businesses where day laborers and field workers gather. Agents in unmarked SUVs rounded up people in vans outside a Home Depot and gas station that serves a breakfast popular with field workers.
This appears to be the first large-scale Border Patrol raid in California since the election of Donald Trump, coming just a day after Congress certified the election on January 6, in the final days of Joe Biden’s presidency. The panic and confusion, for both immigrants and local businesses that rely on their labor, foreshadow what awaits communities across California if Trump follows through on his promise to conduct mass deportations.
<snip>
U.S. Customs and Border Protection did not respond to a request for comment. On social media, Gregory K. Bovino, the Border Patrol chief in El Centro, called the sweeps “Operation Return to Sender.”
“We are taking it to the bad people and bad things in Bakersfield,” the El Centro Border Patrol said in response to a comment on its Facebook page. “We are planning operations for other locals (sic) such as Fresno and especially Sacramento.”
It’s unclear how many people have been detained by Border Patrol or how long the operation would last.
“We’re in the middle of our citrus harvesting. This sent shockwaves through the entire community,” said Casey Creamer, president of the industry group California Citrus Mutual, on Thursday. “People aren’t going to work and kids aren’t going to school. Yesterday about 25% of the workforce, today 75% didn’t show up.”
He pushed back on the Border Patrol’s claims they’re targeting bad people. He said they appeared to be general sweeps of workers.
“If this is the new normal, this is absolute economic devastation,” said Richard S. Gearhart, an associate professor of economics at Cal State-Bakersfield.
CBP has long been one of the most "Trumpy" federal agencies, so the idea that they'd use their discretion this way is not surprising. I'm guessing we'll see a lot of "Working Towards the Führer Donald" in the coming months and years, where low level bureaucrats seek to implement their understanding of Trump's priorities without being explicitly instructed to do so.
The other expectation I have is that this kind of policy won't be implemented on a broad, national scale, but selectively targeted at those Trump sees as his enemies. So immigrant round ups in California's citrus groves but not Florida's. Raids on meat packing plants in Illinois and Wisconsin, but not the ones in Iowa or Kansas. Most broad sweeps of immigrants in red states will probably be specifically targeted at "blue dot" cities.
I'm sure they'd be more than happy to wreck California's economy. They probably won't consider the follow-on damage to the national economy until it's already done.
I'm sure they'd be more than happy to wreck California's economy. They probably won't consider the follow-on damage to the national economy until it's already done.
If they really believe trickle-down economics, it won't even occur to them.
It’s evidence of oligarchy. A good choice of word by Joe Biden. “We are the Masters now”. Messing up the Californian economy, whether intended or incidental, will be blamed on Democrats currently in power.
This is either an escalation or a trial run for Trump's deportation policies.
Federal immigration authorities arrested a Palestinian activist Saturday who played a prominent role in Columbia University’s protests against Israel, a significant escalation in the Trump administration’s pledge to detain and deport student activists.
Mahmoud Khalil, a graduate student at Columbia until this past December, was inside his university-owned apartment Saturday night when several Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents entered and took him into custody, his attorney, Amy Greer, told The Associated Press.
Greer said she spoke by phone with one of the ICE agents during the arrest, who said they were acting on State Department orders to revoke Khalil’s student visa. Informed by the attorney that Khalil was in the United States as a permanent resident with a green card, the agent said they were revoking that instead, according to the lawyer.
A spokesperson for the Department of Homeland Security, Tricia McLaughlin, confirmed Khalil’s arrest in a statement Sunday, describing it as being “in support of President Trump’s executive orders prohibiting anti-Semitism.”
There are a several red flags about this. First, Khalil has been (was?) granted permanent resident status. This theoretically entitles him to due process, and yet we have this weirdly shifting justification from the alleged ICE agents about his status.
Second, if the reporting here is accurate Khalil seems to have been arrested for "wrongthink", expressing idea the current government dislikes. This is being filtered through the idea that any criticism of the current Israeli government constitutes providing material support for Hamas.
And then there's this.
Khalil’s attorney said they were initially informed that he was being held at an immigration detention facility in Elizabeth, New Jersey. But when his wife tried to visit Sunday, she learned he was not there. Greer said she still did not know Khalil’s whereabouts as of Sunday night.
Apparently the U.S. is "disappearing" people now. There is some reporting that Khalil is somewhere in Louisiana, but as far as I know there has been no official comment on this.
Sometimes you run across a 'straight' news story and think it has to be some kind of heavy-handed satire, and yet . . . From the Wall Street Journal (gift link):
The Department of Homeland Security is considering being part of a television show in which immigrants would compete for potential U.S. citizenship, an idea the producer pitched as far back as the Obama administration.
Department spokeswoman Tricia McLaughlin said she had spoken to the producer of the proposed television reality show and that consideration of the idea was ongoing.
It is “in the very beginning stages of that vetting process,” she said, adding, “Each proposal undergoes a thorough vetting process prior to denial or approval.”
The pitch for the proposed citizenship-competition show comes from Rob Worsoff, a producer and writer whose credits include the “Duck Dynasty” reality show. Worsoff, who emigrated from Canada, told The Wall Street Journal that the show is meant to be hopeful and a celebration of what it means to be an American citizen.
“This isn’t ‘The Hunger Games’ for immigrants,” Worsoff said. Immigrants already in the system would compete in various contests including potentially on American history and science. Worsoff stressed that losing contestants wouldn’t face deportation. “This is not, ‘Hey, if you lose, we are shipping you out on a boat out of the country,’” he said.
Worsoff’s outreach to DHS was earlier reported by the Daily Mail.
You know, if you have to explain “this isn’t ‘The Hunger Games’ for immigrants”, then you've pretty much admitted that's the way you know the public is going to perceive this show and, to a certain extent, you're counting on it being receive that way.
Another account of the solemn seriousness with which U.S. immigration policy is being taken can be found at the Daily Beast.
Comments
A truly chilling post. gods, have mercy.
Praying!
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/trumps-massive-deportation-plan-echoes-concentration-camp-history/. It begins:
Pitzer's piece roots Trump's plan - well, Stephen Miller's - in the foul history of detention camps and is a good companion to the Radley Balko piece on logistics @Crœsos linked to upthread.
Is there no limit to Trump's evil?
He will eventually go the way of all humans.
As Frodo pointed out to Sam as a star managed to briefly shine through a gap in the reek and fume of Mordor. But in the meantime Sauron is still there.
Even when he does there will be others. J D Vance sounds even worse.
JD Vance is such a minor player. He will go the way of Sarah Palin. remember her?
JD Vance is the Sarah Palin of Dan Quayles.
Tim Kaine? Although I confess he was "that guy" in my head for a while before his name surfaced.
For those who haven’t seen it, the Marsh Family’s “Vance VP,” (with due credit to ABBA’s “Dancing Queen”).
On a more serious note, I shared this some years ago, but I’ll share it again: “Hillbillies Need No Elegy,” a response to JD Vance from The Bitter Southerner.
Unauthorized workers are about 5% of the US workforce, give or take, and they do demanding, frequently badly paid labor that we all depend on; they are farmworkers, construction workers, maids, caregivers, and restaurant workers.
Forced prison labor is legal in the US. Banning forced prison labor was on the ballot in California this week, and it looks like that proposition is losing, so even here in so-called liberal California, a majority of the electorate feels okay with involuntary servitude for inmates.
Stocks in private prison companies are soaring. Their executives were gleeful in earnings calls this week: "On the earnings calls, two of the largest players in the private prison industry ― GEO Group and Core Civic ― demonstrated broad agreement on the implications of a second Trump term, saying it was likely to increase government funding of private contracts for immigration detention, electronic tracking devices, and the transport of detainees within the United States and to other countries."
Is there anything to prevent unauthorized laborers in the US from becoming forced labor?
From history, it doesn’t look as though interned Japanese during WW2 were forced to work (though I think some got release for harvesting). But having demonised the immigrants, the notion of incarcerating them and forcing them to work while “due process” confirms their deportation might very well be part of the process. The argument “If we do have to keep them a bit for due process, they might as well work for their keep” seems pretty Trumpist.
There's a corollary to this that makes it worse: prison labour displaces real jobs and suppresses wages. 10 million detainees could end up displacing not only farm workers but warehouse workers, and almost anything where people can be closely supervised. What happens when Amazon distribution centres are co-sited with internment camps? Tesla factories? Great way for Elon to deal with the allegations of poor working conditions. Every union-busting pos will be clamouring for detainee labour, and every unscrupulous employer in dispute will threaten the same.
And that's when they'll start stripping citizenship from naturalised citizens, citing "fraud" or "flaws in the assessment process" to swell the numbers.
I'm not sure what MAGA has in mind re: accounting for this Federal revenue. Further cutting the taxes of the uber-wealthy and corporations won't help. The federal government may not pay them to work, but there's huge overhead required to fully maintain any workforce.
The exact same thought occurred to me when I read this thread yesterday. Trump is about to start on a downward path which could lead to a veritable Hell on Earth.
Indeed not, but the thought came to me uninvited. Point taken, though.
People who catastrophized in 1930s Germany weren't wrong, and if they acted on those thoughts to save themselves, it very much did help.
Money, at least, might be susceptible to crowdfunding. I think there would be an appetite from people inside and outside the US who are appalled at Trump for something tangible but low effort on their part.
How would it work? If, say, there are people with whom @Lamb Chopped is acquainted, and for whom $710 each might mean greater safety, an online appeal to those on both sides of the Pond (and elsewhere) might do the trick.
Yes, it might end up as money sunk and lost, but surely worth a try?
Predicting and planning, are not catastrophising, and of some practical help - just declaring “a veritable Hell on Earth” is not much more use than declaring repeatedly “we’re all doomed” a la Private Fraser in Dad’s Army.
Yes, I used words which would have been better left un-used. My bad.
Then we had to go for a Queen's pardon so he could visit Canada--but that is another story for another day.
Now, we are beginning to wonder if all that expense may unravel. He was an undocumented immigrant. He had a felony conviction (first time and only offense--served only probation). Though it was expunged, there is still a gap in the record. Could the Trump deportation program exploit that gap.
We certainly hope not.
Still, knowledge is helpful, even if we can't really implement it. (We, too, have a number of people with convictions--people who've straightened themselves out and gone on to become (usually) husbands, fathers, and just generally decent human beings. I'm not looking at the near future with a whole lot of hope, here.)
I still think that crowdfunding - if necessary - is a way for those of us who are not directly involved to at least offer a little practical help, and I'm prepared to put my money where my mouth is.
Ditto.
I don't know about the US but in the UK one of the biggest sources of free legal advice is students studying law. Obviously that's not always going to be as good as an immigration specialist but are there any local colleges you could hook up with? A lot of students (and faculty) will be looking for ways to fight back too.
We're also right at the beginning of assessing what community needs are going to look like given the election, which means Mr Lamb and I need to do some surveying. That will give us a better idea of exactly what target we're shooting for. How many people, and so forth.
CBP has long been one of the most "Trumpy" federal agencies, so the idea that they'd use their discretion this way is not surprising. I'm guessing we'll see a lot of "Working Towards the Führer Donald" in the coming months and years, where low level bureaucrats seek to implement their understanding of Trump's priorities without being explicitly instructed to do so.
The other expectation I have is that this kind of policy won't be implemented on a broad, national scale, but selectively targeted at those Trump sees as his enemies. So immigrant round ups in California's citrus groves but not Florida's. Raids on meat packing plants in Illinois and Wisconsin, but not the ones in Iowa or Kansas. Most broad sweeps of immigrants in red states will probably be specifically targeted at "blue dot" cities.
If they really believe trickle-down economics, it won't even occur to them.
There are a several red flags about this. First, Khalil has been (was?) granted permanent resident status. This theoretically entitles him to due process, and yet we have this weirdly shifting justification from the alleged ICE agents about his status.
Second, if the reporting here is accurate Khalil seems to have been arrested for "wrongthink", expressing idea the current government dislikes. This is being filtered through the idea that any criticism of the current Israeli government constitutes providing material support for Hamas.
And then there's this.
Apparently the U.S. is "disappearing" people now. There is some reporting that Khalil is somewhere in Louisiana, but as far as I know there has been no official comment on this.
At the moment a federal judge in the District of Southern New York has issued an order forbidding the deportation of Khalil pending a habeas corpus hearing scheduled for tomorrow (March 12).
We've got several people (mentioned on the prayer thread) at risk of Guantanamo. It all depends on whether Vietnam will accept them back.
Prayer for Overcoming Indifference
here
Thanks LC.
I forwarded the prayer to my minister.
You know, if you have to explain “this isn’t ‘The Hunger Games’ for immigrants”, then you've pretty much admitted that's the way you know the public is going to perceive this show and, to a certain extent, you're counting on it being receive that way.
Another account of the solemn seriousness with which U.S. immigration policy is being taken can be found at the Daily Beast.