If this morning’s Contemporary Worship service at my church is repeated, I shall not be attending.
I have no problem with the liturgy, but the music was sung by soloists on screen, from videos, mostly with words shown, but to me, unsingable. I need music. I cannot pick up tunes from a solo voice, with all their individual rhythmic idiosyncrasies, and sung at a pitch I cannot reach.
There was too much repetition, verse after verse of the same words, though I found no objection to the words themselves.
On two occasions we were asked to speak in twos and threes, firstly what we would take to a desert island, secondly stories involving bread in the Bible. Harmless enough, but a waste of time? The whole service lasted an hour and twenty minutes, which was 40 minutes too long, for what it was.
Tell me about it.
This sort of thing drove me out of my local Anglican parish.
They even started doing this sort of thing at the more 'traditional' 9am service where many of us had fled for refuge.
On one occasion the vicar even asked us to split into groups to discuss what we could see ourselves doing in 6 months time.
Given that many of the 9am-ers were in their 80s and that my wife had terminal cancer, this didn't go down very well with me at all.
Mrs Gamaliel was far more philosophical though. She was sat up in the organ loft out of harm's way and simply rolled her eyes and carried on.
I really don't know what they teach at vicar-school these days but how not to be an absolute prat doesn't appear to be on the curriculum.
Could we have a form of worship, necessarily non-traditional, that could exist on the Web but on corpus? We could have sermons created by a community over a wiki, for instance.
You remind me that while we were having zoom services during the pandemic, we had an open discussion slot after the sermon, where the congregation had the opportunity to discuss how they found the sermon, or the day's scripture, was relevant to their lives.
The zoom format made this intimate, and work well, because everyone was face-to-face. It wouldn't work nearly so well in a pew or row of chairs.
You can do this is small groups sitting in the round, but then you don't get the breadth of ideas or experience (and realistically not everyone has something useful or interesting to say every week) - the zoom format gives you an intimate feel with a larger group of people.
If this morning’s Contemporary Worship service at my church is repeated, I shall not be attending.
I have no problem with the liturgy, but the music was sung by soloists on screen, from videos, mostly with words shown, but to me, unsingable. I need music. I cannot pick up tunes from a solo voice, with all their individual rhythmic idiosyncrasies, and sung at a pitch I cannot reach.
There was too much repetition, verse after verse of the same words, though I found no objection to the words themselves.
On two occasions we were asked to speak in twos and threes, firstly what we would take to a desert island, secondly stories involving bread in the Bible. Harmless enough, but a waste of time? The whole service lasted an hour and twenty minutes, which was 40 minutes too long, for what it was.
Tell me about it.
This sort of thing drove me out of my local Anglican parish.
They even started doing this sort of thing at the more 'traditional' 9am service where many of us had fled for refuge.
On one occasion the vicar even asked us to split into groups to discuss what we could see ourselves doing in 6 months time.
Given that many of the 9am-ers were in their 80s and that my wife had terminal cancer, this didn't go down very well with me at all.
Mrs Gamaliel was far more philosophical though. She was sat up in the organ loft out of harm's way and simply rolled her eyes and carried on.
I really don't know what they teach at vicar-school these days but how not to be an absolute prat doesn't appear to be on the curriculum.
And they ask why ND people struggle to feel they belong at church...
The Peace is bad enough without this sort of fuckwitterry.
Mind, back when I was young and evangelical I once did a stint at a homeless night shelter run by a church with this other volunteer, both of us University students and CU people. It was the practice to do a short service in the evening. He wanted the guys to split into small groups and pray for each other. I could see the look on the regular staff member's face as he said this and fortunately managed to persuade him back to the tried and trusted singing of Abide with Me and saying the trad form of the Lord's Prayer.
And they ask why ND people struggle to feel they belong at church...
My lowest ebb was turning up one morning to discover that the service had been replaced (without any advertising - we all thought we'd gone for 0930 communion, the church's only service) with a Lenten interview with a parishioner, and that the vicar proposed to only run interviews with Parishioners instead of services across the whole of Lent. I think she sort of wistfully thought she might have missed her vocation as Michael Parkinson.
We had an informal discussion-type service the other week, however that was because I caught Covid and lay leaders had to "fill the gap" at short notice.
We had an informal discussion-type service the other week, however that was because I caught Covid and lay leaders had to "fill the gap" at short notice.
which is completely fine obviously - what that church was doing was 'hi everyone, out of the blue, we're abandoning our normal worship - starting today - for the whole of Lent. Because I've decided it'll be interesting. I know we only have one service a week as it is, but it'll be great!'
My lowest ebb was turning up one morning to discover that the service had been replaced (without any advertising - we all thought we'd gone for 0930 communion, the church's only service) with a Lenten interview with a parishioner, and that the vicar proposed to only run interviews with Parishioners instead of services across the whole of Lent. I think she sort of wistfully thought she might have missed her vocation as Michael Parkinson.
I admit I might be persuaded to show up for one of these if Dame Edna were the guest.
My lowest ebb was turning up one morning to discover that the service had been replaced (without any advertising - we all thought we'd gone for 0930 communion, the church's only service) with a Lenten interview with a parishioner, and that the vicar proposed to only run interviews with Parishioners instead of services across the whole of Lent. I think she sort of wistfully thought she might have missed her vocation as Michael Parkinson.
I admit I might be persuaded to show up for one of these if Dame Edna were the guest.
And they ask why ND people struggle to feel they belong at church...
My lowest ebb was turning up one morning to discover that the service had been replaced (without any advertising - we all thought we'd gone for 0930 communion, the church's only service) with a Lenten interview with a parishioner, and that the vicar proposed to only run interviews with Parishioners instead of services across the whole of Lent. I think she sort of wistfully thought she might have missed her vocation as Michael Parkinson.
Did they not think that, during Lent or otherwise, people might need Communion? 😱
And they ask why ND people struggle to feel they belong at church...
My lowest ebb was turning up one morning to discover that the service had been replaced (without any advertising - we all thought we'd gone for 0930 communion, the church's only service) with a Lenten interview with a parishioner, and that the vicar proposed to only run interviews with Parishioners instead of services across the whole of Lent. I think she sort of wistfully thought she might have missed her vocation as Michael Parkinson.
I would have walked out.
Me-centred clergy are the bane of the church. Were they not trained to be God-centred?
And they ask why ND people struggle to feel they belong at church...
My lowest ebb was turning up one morning to discover that the service had been replaced (without any advertising - we all thought we'd gone for 0930 communion, the church's only service) with a Lenten interview with a parishioner, and that the vicar proposed to only run interviews with Parishioners instead of services across the whole of Lent. I think she sort of wistfully thought she might have missed her vocation as Michael Parkinson.
Did they not think that, during Lent or otherwise, people might need Communion? 😱
what made it the more bizarre was that this was a proper back street urban, ritual centred, (liberal) anglo-catholic slum church, of the type that is still (just about) actually in a slum. Daughter church to the parish church a mile away but still with a congregation of its own.
Of all the places to wake up one morning, and think 'you know what? let's not bother with the mass for a month or so' - it was genuinely extraordinary.
And they ask why ND people struggle to feel they belong at church...
My lowest ebb was turning up one morning to discover that the service had been replaced (without any advertising - we all thought we'd gone for 0930 communion, the church's only service) with a Lenten interview with a parishioner, and that the vicar proposed to only run interviews with Parishioners instead of services across the whole of Lent. I think she sort of wistfully thought she might have missed her vocation as Michael Parkinson.
I would have walked out.
Me-centred clergy are the bane of the church. Were they not trained to be God-centred?
after that morning, I walked to the next church until after Easter Sunday.
Given that the *interview* church was a daughter church, presumably the argument was that the Faithful could go to the parent church for Mass, but, even so, the decision (was it supported by the PCC?) was indeed extremely bizarre.
How many of the congregation attended these *services*? If something like that was tried at Our Place, I doubt if anyone would bother to turn up.
That's not to say that such *interview* services are necessarily bad per se, but there's time and a place. Cancelling Mass altogether is not a good idea, but I suppose something along these lines could take place instead of a homily...although personally I wouldn't be impressed. We have three readings and a psalm, but, with the Gloria omitted during Lent, one could perhaps also leave out one reading, and the psalm, to give more room for the *interview*...
All this seems very odd to the Orthodox of course. We tend just to serve the Liturgy and lay on Vespers and Matins if there's enough energy and will to do so.
We do have Bible studies though and I've seen discussion and panel-type Q&A activities at conferences. Heck, we even use PowerPoint at those! Is outrage! Not for the worship you understand, but for presentations and lectures.
It's not really my place to comment on what other people do (but since when has that stopped me? ) but it strikes me that @Baptist Trainfan's practice of giving due notice when something new or unfamiliar is on offer is a sound one.
I'm not saying that everyone should be as formally liturgical as the more sacramental traditions, but one might expect at least some kind of liturgical training/rationale within Anglican circles - even low-ish ones.
I've seen more experimental forms of worship in Baptist and independent church settings and that seems fine to me as somehow it seems to fit the context.
Perhaps it's just me, but whenever I've seen Anglicans do this sort of thing it just comes across as rather 'forced', faddish or embarrassing.
If nothing else, it just seems like basic courtesy to give people a heads-up that something unusual is going to happen.
Our church newsletter takes care to announce that Fr X will be on vacation on some particular dates next month, so the Sunday services will be led by Fr Y, and in the event that a parishioner requires a priest in an emergency, coverage will be provided by The Rev Z.
"We're going to do something entirely different next Sunday" really ought to rate a mention.
In my tradition the refusal to celebrate Mass on Sunday would have the bishops phone ringing constantly and very harsh words words from parishioners to the priest.
However it just wouldn't happen.
My lowest ebb was turning up one morning to discover that the service had been replaced (without any advertising - we all thought we'd gone for 0930 communion, the church's only service) with a Lenten interview with a parishioner, and that the vicar proposed to only run interviews with Parishioners instead of services across the whole of Lent. I think she sort of wistfully thought she might have missed her vocation as Michael Parkinson.
:facepalm:
That’s what Sunday school/faith formation/insert-designation-of-choice-here is for.
This sounds like it's of a piece with the university chaplaincy which did nothing for a year apart from keeping bees. It's a kind of experiment that feels incredibly self indulgent. I think it's supposed to be a period of reflection and a fallow period. Makes sense for the institution but not necessarily for the people involved.
My lowest ebb was turning up one morning to discover that the service had been replaced (without any advertising - we all thought we'd gone for 0930 communion, the church's only service) with a Lenten interview with a parishioner, and that the vicar proposed to only run interviews with Parishioners instead of services across the whole of Lent. I think she sort of wistfully thought she might have missed her vocation as Michael Parkinson.
:facepalm:
That’s what Sunday school/faith formation/insert-designation-of-choice-here is for.
In fairness, not that many churches in the UK have adult Sunday school provision as, I understand, is quite common in the States.
So I can understand a clerical / ministerial concern to provide such a thing - or a half-hearted or ham-fisted attempt at such a thing - during the 'normal' Sunday service.
That doesn't make it 'right', of course, unless you are in a church setting that is accustomed to this kind of approach.
My lowest ebb was turning up one morning to discover that the service had been replaced (without any advertising - we all thought we'd gone for 0930 communion, the church's only service) with a Lenten interview with a parishioner, and that the vicar proposed to only run interviews with Parishioners instead of services across the whole of Lent. I think she sort of wistfully thought she might have missed her vocation as Michael Parkinson.
:facepalm:
That’s what Sunday school/faith formation/insert-designation-of-choice-here is for.
In fairness, not that many churches in the UK have adult Sunday school provision as, I understand, is quite common in the States.
So I can understand a clerical / ministerial concern to provide such a thing - or a half-hearted or ham-fisted attempt at such a thing - during the 'normal' Sunday service.
That doesn't make it 'right', of course, unless you are in a church setting that is accustomed to this kind of approach.
Yes.
It's hard enough (say some of the clergy) to get people to come to church once or twice a month on a Sunday, let alone to any extra services, meetings, or study courses.
Our Place has, in recent years, tried a modest study course each Tuesday during Lent. Held in the vestry, after the evening Mass in the church, it's been led by a retired priest who is rather good at this sort of thing, but the attendance has never AFAIK risen above single figures.
One of our neighbouring C of E Places now has a Sunday afternoon (430pm) *Cafe Church* sort of thing, mainly aimed at young families who are otherwise engaged on Sunday mornings! I don't know how they're doing at the moment (it got off to a slow start, I'm told), but it seems like a Good Idea to me.
Two more neighbouring Places (linked in a joint benefice) each have *Cafe Church* once a month (not on the same Sunday) instead of the usual Eucharist. This may be partly to allow their Lay Ministers some scope, and also to relieve their elderly soon-to-retire priest from having to celebrate two Eucharists each week. These are the churches which I have referred to elsewhere as having fallen on hard times post-Covid, so I hope this fairly recent venture into something different - but well-publicised! - bears fruit.
My lowest ebb was turning up one morning to discover that the service had been replaced (without any advertising - we all thought we'd gone for 0930 communion, the church's only service) with a Lenten interview with a parishioner, and that the vicar proposed to only run interviews with Parishioners instead of services across the whole of Lent. I think she sort of wistfully thought she might have missed her vocation as Michael Parkinson.
:facepalm:
That’s what Sunday school/faith formation/insert-designation-of-choice-here is for.
In fairness, not that many churches in the UK have adult Sunday school provision as, I understand, is quite common in the States.
So I can understand a clerical / ministerial concern to provide such a thing - or a half-hearted or ham-fisted attempt at such a thing - during the 'normal' Sunday service.
That doesn't make it 'right', of course, unless you are in a church setting that is accustomed to this kind of approach.
Yes.
It's hard enough (say some of the clergy) to get people to come to church once or twice a month on a Sunday, let alone to any extra services, meetings, or study courses.
Our Place has, in recent years, tried a modest study course each Tuesday during Lent. Held in the vestry, after the evening Mass in the church, it's been led by a retired priest who is rather good at this sort of thing, but the attendance has never AFAIK risen above single figures.
One of our neighbouring C of E Places now has a Sunday afternoon (430pm) *Cafe Church* sort of thing, mainly aimed at young families who are otherwise engaged on Sunday mornings! I don't know how they're doing at the moment (it got off to a slow start, I'm told), but it seems like a Good Idea to me.
Two more neighbouring Places (linked in a joint benefice) each have *Cafe Church* once a month (not on the same Sunday) instead of the usual Eucharist. This may be partly to allow their Lay Ministers some scope, and also to relieve their elderly soon-to-retire priest from having to celebrate two Eucharists each week. These are the churches which I have referred to elsewhere as having fallen on hard times post-Covid, so I hope this fairly recent venture into something different - but well-publicised! - bears fruit.
Youngest Beaky daughter takes Huxley/ Little Beaky and brothers to a monthly Sunday afternoon children's service where they sing songs and simple hymns, have a story and do a simple craft activity ( this is often liturgically linked so eg made crowns at Epiphany) and say a prayer.
She also sometimes takes them to the Parish Communion but there is no Sunday school provision as it's a tiny village church congregation of very few albeit lovely people.
The children's service is led by a Lay Minister and the PP.
Daughter says they all love it.
She also sometimes takes them to the Parish Communion but there is no Sunday school provision as it's a tiny village church congregation of very few albeit lovely people.
The children's service is led by a Lay Minister and the PP.
Daughter says they all love it.
It strikes me that those folk understand what Church is: not an event one "goes to", but a community of which one is a part.
My lowest ebb was turning up one morning to discover that the service had been replaced (without any advertising - we all thought we'd gone for 0930 communion, the church's only service) with a Lenten interview with a parishioner, and that the vicar proposed to only run interviews with Parishioners instead of services across the whole of Lent. I think she sort of wistfully thought she might have missed her vocation as Michael Parkinson.
:facepalm:
That’s what Sunday school/faith formation/insert-designation-of-choice-here is for.
In fairness, not that many churches in the UK have adult Sunday school provision as, I understand, is quite common in the States.
So I can understand a clerical / ministerial concern to provide such a thing - or a half-hearted or ham-fisted attempt at such a thing - during the 'normal' Sunday service.
That doesn't make it 'right', of course, unless you are in a church setting that is accustomed to this kind of approach.
Yes.
It's hard enough (say some of the clergy) to get people to come to church once or twice a month on a Sunday, let alone to any extra services, meetings, or study courses.
Our Place has, in recent years, tried a modest study course each Tuesday during Lent. Held in the vestry, after the evening Mass in the church, it's been led by a retired priest who is rather good at this sort of thing, but the attendance has never AFAIK risen above single figures.
One of our neighbouring C of E Places now has a Sunday afternoon (430pm) *Cafe Church* sort of thing, mainly aimed at young families who are otherwise engaged on Sunday mornings! I don't know how they're doing at the moment (it got off to a slow start, I'm told), but it seems like a Good Idea to me.
Two more neighbouring Places (linked in a joint benefice) each have *Cafe Church* once a month (not on the same Sunday) instead of the usual Eucharist. This may be partly to allow their Lay Ministers some scope, and also to relieve their elderly soon-to-retire priest from having to celebrate two Eucharists each week. These are the churches which I have referred to elsewhere as having fallen on hard times post-Covid, so I hope this fairly recent venture into something different - but well-publicised! - bears fruit.
Youngest Beaky daughter takes Huxley/ Little Beaky and brothers to a monthly Sunday afternoon children's service where they sing songs and simple hymns, have a story and do a simple craft activity ( this is often liturgically linked so eg made crowns at Epiphany) and say a prayer.
She also sometimes takes them to the Parish Communion but there is no Sunday school provision as it's a tiny village church congregation of very few albeit lovely people.
The children's service is led by a Lay Minister and the PP.
Daughter says they all love it.
That's the sort of thing I somewhat vaguely have in mind. Messy Church (AIUI) does try to involve parents/carers/other family members, but the service attended by the Beakies seems to be very much along similar lines.
She also sometimes takes them to the Parish Communion but there is no Sunday school provision as it's a tiny village church congregation of very few albeit lovely people.
The children's service is led by a Lay Minister and the PP.
Daughter says they all love it.
It strikes me that those folk understand what Church is: not an event one "goes to", but a community of which one is a part.
Our place has a monthly informal service geared to families, but despite trying it on three or four occasions, some us find it infantilising, or too ‘inclusive’. We don’t want to do action songs, or write prayers in paper hearts or discuss something, however harmless, in small groups. Hardly any children attend, maybe one family sometimes or a couple of children brought by their grandparents.
We wish it could be reviewed, as on that Sunday we feel we are not catered for, yet those for whom the service is intended are not attending. AWBU?
Our place has a monthly informal service geared to families, but despite trying it on three or four occasions, some us find it infantilising, or too ‘inclusive’. We don’t want to do action songs, or write prayers in paper hearts or discuss something, however harmless, in small groups. Hardly any children attend, maybe one family sometimes or a couple of children brought by their grandparents.
We wish it could be reviewed, as on that Sunday we feel we are not catered for, yet those for whom the service is intended are not attending. AWBU?
Just to clarify, the monthly children's service is in addition to the Sunday morning Parish communion and is very much for the children rather than a hybrid attempt at a service for all ages.
Our place has a monthly informal service geared to families, but despite trying it on three or four occasions, some us find it infantilising, or too ‘inclusive’. We don’t want to do action songs, or write prayers in paper hearts or discuss something, however harmless, in small groups. Hardly any children attend, maybe one family sometimes or a couple of children brought by their grandparents.
We wish it could be reviewed, as on that Sunday we feel we are not catered for, yet those for whom the service is intended are not attending. AWBU?
I don't think you mean "Automated Whole-Breast Ultrasound" .....
What is unreasonable is to expect people to do action songs, write prayers in paper hearts, break down into small groups to discuss things - however anodyne or harmless - and particularly when the 'target' demographic for this sort of thing aren't even attending.
What.is the.point?
Ok. We are faced with a dilemma in our contemporary Western society. People are no longed used to traditional forms of worship, whether sacramental or less so.
It strikes me that nobody has yet succeeded in coming up with an alternative that 'works' for everyone. Someone is going to be alienated somewhere along the line.
I'm not sure where that leaves us.
Orthodox parishes are reporting an influx of enquirers at the moment, many of them young men. Some of that worries me.
What I'm hearing from clergy is that very few have any idea whatsoever of even the 'basics' of Christian faith and practice in the most general terms.
So, what do we do? Dumb it all down? Or catechise, catechise, catechise?
My question was a rhetorical one, of course, @Lamb Chopped and @Alan29. But your answers are those I anticipated and would like to see put into effect.
As far as my own Tradition goes, there's a yawning gap between what's needed and what's provided. There are honorable and notable exceptions.
An earnest Greek lad I know, who has recently visited relatives and various historic sites and churches back there, estimates that around 80% of regular attenders over there can't understand a word of the services in Orthodox parishes.
Now there's an instance where a 'non-traditional' approach, having services in a language 'understanded of the people', would clearly be of benefit.
I'm not suggesting drum machines and PowerPoint slides. But at least the language that people actually speak. And explaining things.
Meanwhile, with the current phenomenon of young men - and some older women - suddenly expressing an interest in Orthodoxy, mainly through online influences (some highly questionable, I submit), most parishes aren't in a position to deal with it adequately.
I know of some parishes which suddenly find themselves with a dozen or more catechumens.
One priest told me that he has grave doubts about the depth and commitment of many recently 'received' in parishes across London, for instance.
We're not seeing that level of interest where I am, but there's a trickle of enquirers. Catechesis has never been our parish priest's strong point, he's more of a 'liturgist' and 'confessor'. There's work to be done.
Our place has a monthly informal service geared to families, but despite trying it on three or four occasions, some us find it infantilising, or too ‘inclusive’. We don’t want to do action songs, or write prayers in paper hearts or discuss something, however harmless, in small groups. Hardly any children attend, maybe one family sometimes or a couple of children brought by their grandparents.
We wish it could be reviewed, as on that Sunday we feel we are not catered for, yet those for whom the service is intended are not attending. AWBU?
It certainly sounds as though a review/rethink is needed, although I did wonder if perhaps your Vicar and PCC had decided to go ahead with the service for a period of, say, 6 months, to see if/how it worked?
That said, it might be well if there were less action songs/painting by numbers, or whatever...
Orthodox parishes are reporting an influx of enquirers at the moment, many of them young men. Some of that worries me.
I’ve heard about this. This is part of the whole kind of scary “defend traditional values and destroy our enemies, whether they are Muslim or ‘woke,’ under the banner of old European things, with some subtle or just plain overt racism” stuff, yes? The worrying bits, I mean. There seems to be an attraction to some of the less healthy aspects of old Christendom mixed with a weird toxic masculinity, and it’s been showing up with the Roman Catholic churches too, from what I’ve read.
Yes. I think the overall picture isn't quite as simple as that but there are certainly elements of all the things you mention - particularly in North America but it's happening here too.
It's not just an Orthodox and RC thing. A friend who attends a large and lively well-known evangelical-charismatic Anglican church tells me they've had a sudden influx of previously unchurched young men.
I'm not sure whether it's connected with 'anti-woke' sentiments there but that's certainly the case with many recent Orthodox enquiries.
Back in the day some Western enquirers/converts were a bit hippyish. And Metropolitan Anthony Bloom seemed to connect with the 'chattering classes.'
Some of the '90s converts had an unhealthy fixation/aversion to women's ordination it has to be said.
Orthodoxy always had some kind of 'exotic' appeal and in recent years the claim that we are older and more 'original' has become something of a marketing proposition. The appeal to 'tradition' and to history is attractive but it can be a double-edged sword. I'm interested in the Celtic and Anglo-Saxon Saints but you come across some Orthodox who wouldn't be happy until Mercia, Wessex and Northumbria were re-established.
Some crazies even want to restore a monarchy to the USA.
As a C of E church warden I get flack if any alternative idea is introduced from the traditional form of a communion service. E.G. asked congrehation to meditate rather than simply listening to a sermon. Personally I think repeating week after week a set form of the communion service does not help my Christian journey. As an aside communion is now the default service. In the 70's communion was a monthly service slot around Matins. Do miss this service for the music.
Also I may be an old fogie but love as a opportunity to wind down at the end of the week with one choral evensong service a month. Church also has an evening choral communion service with healing ministry once a month. This helps to engage the congrgation from being passive spectators.
We had a strange mixture this morning: normal Common Worship Parish Communion, with St Thomas Mass sung by the choir as usual, but five “ modern” hymns/ songs. All from the hymn book, but some much too short, so the excellent organist had to improvise to cover gaps.
Visiting priest, rambling sermon, not sure what she wanted us to take from it.
But it was Communion and no complaints about the liturgy.
Comments
Tell me about it.
This sort of thing drove me out of my local Anglican parish.
They even started doing this sort of thing at the more 'traditional' 9am service where many of us had fled for refuge.
On one occasion the vicar even asked us to split into groups to discuss what we could see ourselves doing in 6 months time.
Given that many of the 9am-ers were in their 80s and that my wife had terminal cancer, this didn't go down very well with me at all.
Mrs Gamaliel was far more philosophical though. She was sat up in the organ loft out of harm's way and simply rolled her eyes and carried on.
I really don't know what they teach at vicar-school these days but how not to be an absolute prat doesn't appear to be on the curriculum.
You remind me that while we were having zoom services during the pandemic, we had an open discussion slot after the sermon, where the congregation had the opportunity to discuss how they found the sermon, or the day's scripture, was relevant to their lives.
The zoom format made this intimate, and work well, because everyone was face-to-face. It wouldn't work nearly so well in a pew or row of chairs.
You can do this is small groups sitting in the round, but then you don't get the breadth of ideas or experience (and realistically not everyone has something useful or interesting to say every week) - the zoom format gives you an intimate feel with a larger group of people.
And they ask why ND people struggle to feel they belong at church...
The Peace is bad enough without this sort of fuckwitterry.
Mind, back when I was young and evangelical I once did a stint at a homeless night shelter run by a church with this other volunteer, both of us University students and CU people. It was the practice to do a short service in the evening. He wanted the guys to split into small groups and pray for each other. I could see the look on the regular staff member's face as he said this and fortunately managed to persuade him back to the tried and trusted singing of Abide with Me and saying the trad form of the Lord's Prayer.
My lowest ebb was turning up one morning to discover that the service had been replaced (without any advertising - we all thought we'd gone for 0930 communion, the church's only service) with a Lenten interview with a parishioner, and that the vicar proposed to only run interviews with Parishioners instead of services across the whole of Lent. I think she sort of wistfully thought she might have missed her vocation as Michael Parkinson.
which is completely fine obviously - what that church was doing was 'hi everyone, out of the blue, we're abandoning our normal worship - starting today - for the whole of Lent. Because I've decided it'll be interesting. I know we only have one service a week as it is, but it'll be great!'
I admit I might be persuaded to show up for one of these if Dame Edna were the guest.
Ditto. Never saw her in there though…
Did they not think that, during Lent or otherwise, people might need Communion? 😱
I would have walked out.
Me-centred clergy are the bane of the church. Were they not trained to be God-centred?
what made it the more bizarre was that this was a proper back street urban, ritual centred, (liberal) anglo-catholic slum church, of the type that is still (just about) actually in a slum. Daughter church to the parish church a mile away but still with a congregation of its own.
Of all the places to wake up one morning, and think 'you know what? let's not bother with the mass for a month or so' - it was genuinely extraordinary.
after that morning, I walked to the next church until after Easter Sunday.
How many of the congregation attended these *services*? If something like that was tried at Our Place, I doubt if anyone would bother to turn up.
That's not to say that such *interview* services are necessarily bad per se, but there's time and a place. Cancelling Mass altogether is not a good idea, but I suppose something along these lines could take place instead of a homily...although personally I wouldn't be impressed. We have three readings and a psalm, but, with the Gloria omitted during Lent, one could perhaps also leave out one reading, and the psalm, to give more room for the *interview*...
Or, better still, perhaps not.
We do have Bible studies though and I've seen discussion and panel-type Q&A activities at conferences. Heck, we even use PowerPoint at those! Is outrage! Not for the worship you understand, but for presentations and lectures.
It's not really my place to comment on what other people do (but since when has that stopped me?
I'm not saying that everyone should be as formally liturgical as the more sacramental traditions, but one might expect at least some kind of liturgical training/rationale within Anglican circles - even low-ish ones.
I've seen more experimental forms of worship in Baptist and independent church settings and that seems fine to me as somehow it seems to fit the context.
Perhaps it's just me, but whenever I've seen Anglicans do this sort of thing it just comes across as rather 'forced', faddish or embarrassing.
Our church newsletter takes care to announce that Fr X will be on vacation on some particular dates next month, so the Sunday services will be led by Fr Y, and in the event that a parishioner requires a priest in an emergency, coverage will be provided by The Rev Z.
"We're going to do something entirely different next Sunday" really ought to rate a mention.
However it just wouldn't happen.
That’s what Sunday school/faith formation/insert-designation-of-choice-here is for.
In fairness, not that many churches in the UK have adult Sunday school provision as, I understand, is quite common in the States.
So I can understand a clerical / ministerial concern to provide such a thing - or a half-hearted or ham-fisted attempt at such a thing - during the 'normal' Sunday service.
That doesn't make it 'right', of course, unless you are in a church setting that is accustomed to this kind of approach.
Yes.
It's hard enough (say some of the clergy) to get people to come to church once or twice a month on a Sunday, let alone to any extra services, meetings, or study courses.
Our Place has, in recent years, tried a modest study course each Tuesday during Lent. Held in the vestry, after the evening Mass in the church, it's been led by a retired priest who is rather good at this sort of thing, but the attendance has never AFAIK risen above single figures.
One of our neighbouring C of E Places now has a Sunday afternoon (430pm) *Cafe Church* sort of thing, mainly aimed at young families who are otherwise engaged on Sunday mornings! I don't know how they're doing at the moment (it got off to a slow start, I'm told), but it seems like a Good Idea to me.
Two more neighbouring Places (linked in a joint benefice) each have *Cafe Church* once a month (not on the same Sunday) instead of the usual Eucharist. This may be partly to allow their Lay Ministers some scope, and also to relieve their elderly soon-to-retire priest from having to celebrate two Eucharists each week. These are the churches which I have referred to elsewhere as having fallen on hard times post-Covid, so I hope this fairly recent venture into something different - but well-publicised! - bears fruit.
Youngest Beaky daughter takes Huxley/ Little Beaky and brothers to a monthly Sunday afternoon children's service where they sing songs and simple hymns, have a story and do a simple craft activity ( this is often liturgically linked so eg made crowns at Epiphany) and say a prayer.
She also sometimes takes them to the Parish Communion but there is no Sunday school provision as it's a tiny village church congregation of very few albeit lovely people.
The children's service is led by a Lay Minister and the PP.
Daughter says they all love it.
That's the sort of thing I somewhat vaguely have in mind. Messy Church (AIUI) does try to involve parents/carers/other family members, but the service attended by the Beakies seems to be very much along similar lines.
Ideally.
We wish it could be reviewed, as on that Sunday we feel we are not catered for, yet those for whom the service is intended are not attending. AWBU?
Just to clarify, the monthly children's service is in addition to the Sunday morning Parish communion and is very much for the children rather than a hybrid attempt at a service for all ages.
I don't think you mean "Automated Whole-Breast Ultrasound" .....
What is unreasonable is to expect people to do action songs, write prayers in paper hearts, break down into small groups to discuss things - however anodyne or harmless - and particularly when the 'target' demographic for this sort of thing aren't even attending.
What.is the.point?
Ok. We are faced with a dilemma in our contemporary Western society. People are no longed used to traditional forms of worship, whether sacramental or less so.
It strikes me that nobody has yet succeeded in coming up with an alternative that 'works' for everyone. Someone is going to be alienated somewhere along the line.
I'm not sure where that leaves us.
Orthodox parishes are reporting an influx of enquirers at the moment, many of them young men. Some of that worries me.
What I'm hearing from clergy is that very few have any idea whatsoever of even the 'basics' of Christian faith and practice in the most general terms.
So, what do we do? Dumb it all down? Or catechise, catechise, catechise?
My question was a rhetorical one, of course, @Lamb Chopped and @Alan29. But your answers are those I anticipated and would like to see put into effect.
As far as my own Tradition goes, there's a yawning gap between what's needed and what's provided. There are honorable and notable exceptions.
An earnest Greek lad I know, who has recently visited relatives and various historic sites and churches back there, estimates that around 80% of regular attenders over there can't understand a word of the services in Orthodox parishes.
Now there's an instance where a 'non-traditional' approach, having services in a language 'understanded of the people', would clearly be of benefit.
I'm not suggesting drum machines and PowerPoint slides. But at least the language that people actually speak. And explaining things.
Meanwhile, with the current phenomenon of young men - and some older women - suddenly expressing an interest in Orthodoxy, mainly through online influences (some highly questionable, I submit), most parishes aren't in a position to deal with it adequately.
I know of some parishes which suddenly find themselves with a dozen or more catechumens.
One priest told me that he has grave doubts about the depth and commitment of many recently 'received' in parishes across London, for instance.
We're not seeing that level of interest where I am, but there's a trickle of enquirers. Catechesis has never been our parish priest's strong point, he's more of a 'liturgist' and 'confessor'. There's work to be done.
It certainly sounds as though a review/rethink is needed, although I did wonder if perhaps your Vicar and PCC had decided to go ahead with the service for a period of, say, 6 months, to see if/how it worked?
That said, it might be well if there were less action songs/painting by numbers, or whatever...
I’ve heard about this. This is part of the whole kind of scary “defend traditional values and destroy our enemies, whether they are Muslim or ‘woke,’ under the banner of old European things, with some subtle or just plain overt racism” stuff, yes? The worrying bits, I mean. There seems to be an attraction to some of the less healthy aspects of old Christendom mixed with a weird toxic masculinity, and it’s been showing up with the Roman Catholic churches too, from what I’ve read.
It's not just an Orthodox and RC thing. A friend who attends a large and lively well-known evangelical-charismatic Anglican church tells me they've had a sudden influx of previously unchurched young men.
I'm not sure whether it's connected with 'anti-woke' sentiments there but that's certainly the case with many recent Orthodox enquiries.
Back in the day some Western enquirers/converts were a bit hippyish. And Metropolitan Anthony Bloom seemed to connect with the 'chattering classes.'
Some of the '90s converts had an unhealthy fixation/aversion to women's ordination it has to be said.
Orthodoxy always had some kind of 'exotic' appeal and in recent years the claim that we are older and more 'original' has become something of a marketing proposition. The appeal to 'tradition' and to history is attractive but it can be a double-edged sword. I'm interested in the Celtic and Anglo-Saxon Saints but you come across some Orthodox who wouldn't be happy until Mercia, Wessex and Northumbria were re-established.
Some crazies even want to restore a monarchy to the USA.
Also I may be an old fogie but love as a opportunity to wind down at the end of the week with one choral evensong service a month. Church also has an evening choral communion service with healing ministry once a month. This helps to engage the congrgation from being passive spectators.
Visiting priest, rambling sermon, not sure what she wanted us to take from it.
But it was Communion and no complaints about the liturgy.