Suspicions of abuse

DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
You may have seen this news story.

We can’t speculate on the culpability of the man against whom the allegations were made. But for the future - what do we expect an institution to do in this situation ?
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Comments

  • I'm a safeguarding officer for a Church of England parish. Based on this - what safeguarding? I appreciate that there are issues of justice and equity which must be taken into account, and allegations can't be acted on without testing, but this sort of inactivity over 20 years reminds me of the issues discussed on the thread about statutes of limitations. I'm not sure that anything that is fully just to all sides in such situations is possible, but this one seems a particularly poor case. There are probably quite a few more - probably not statistically massive as a proportion of all clergy, but significant in their impact on those involved, and on the reputation of the church and indeed the Christian faith as a whole.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited August 13
    My impression is that in this situation they would not have a legal basis to dismiss the clergyman ? That might have been different if he had not held some kind of freehold.
  • There was no speculation about suspicions from his former Bishop, just a blunt statement about Hindley being a danger to children and young people. It's horrendous that such abuse is occurring so blatantly in the Churchnof England and other major institutions in 2024.

    How do you continue working alongside someone when you know they are grooming and abusing in this way?
    The former Bishop of Blackburn Julian Henderson described the financial settlement when he was in post as the “only option” left for the Church “to protect children and vulnerable young people from the risk Canon Hindley posed”.
  • We have to bear in mind the difference between risk and proven acts. Protection from risk is a duty - but dismissal can't be on the basis of risk; it requires proof.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    Accused should be entitled to due process.
  • Caissa wrote: »
    Accused should be entitled to due process.

    In this case the victims were told to move on and 30 years of abuse (alleged) were ignored by those in a position to take action to ensure due process.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    Accusers should also be entitled to due process.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited August 13
    Per the article this particular person was accused, investigated but never charged. So the question is - where does that leave an employer ?

    I note the church seriously considered shutting the cathedral to get rid of him, probably if they had done that they could have been sued for constructive dismissal anyway.

    It’s alleged in the article that the problem was they were afraid of litigation - but in this situation litigation they lost would represent a situation of the court finding they broke the law. (Such a finding would amount to saying they didn’t follow due process.)

    So in such a situation in the future - what do we think they should do, what would handling a situation like this well actually look like ?
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    I don't know if British law is analogous to Canadian law. In our courts the burden of proof is reasonable doubt in criminal cases. If there is found to be reasonable doubt an individual is acquitted. Many crown prosecutors in Canada will not proceed with a case if they believe there may be reasonable doubt. Civil cases are adjudicated on balance of probabilities. In other words, is there a 50 + 1 likelihood that something happened. Would an employer only have to meet the burden of balance of probabilities in any due process that might lead to discipline or dismissal in the UK?
  • KoFKoF Shipmate
    In theory it should be possible to dismiss someone for gross misconduct that doesn't meet the standards needed for a legal case.

    But then that still needs investigating. If an organisation is disorganised perhaps even uninterested and incompetent, I can imagine that they could fairly easily get into this kind of mess.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Basically, with freehold, he could only be dismissed on a proven disciplinary offence - proved beyond reasonable doubt. He could be asked to move, but not compelled. Just because “everyone knew” he presented a risk was not enough to enable him to be removed. All that could be done was to put safeguards in place.

    There is a suggestion that this was not adequately done - although that is not clear. It is also clear that he was prepared to argue (and does indeed say) that he was being persecuted on account of his sexuality, and this threat probably affected how closely people felt able to monitor him.
  • This is always my concern with these things. The tendency to equate homosexuality with paedophilia has a long and dishonourable history. That's the other side to what I said above.
  • More broadly; the CofE seems to have been systematically bad at dealing with charges of this nature if multiple recent cases are any judge - frequently because they were operating on the basis of a good chaps theory of governance.
  • But how do you suggest the church deals with the difference between proof of an offence and protection against risk? You can't have - well I don't think you can - removal from post on the basis of protecting against risk. But what else do you do?
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited August 13
    (I note that one thing they have done, which should make it easier to deal with situations in the future - is get rid of the freehold system. They did that in 2007.)
  • Even without the freehold system, there is still most of the tension I referred to, grounded in competing claims for justice.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    edited August 13
    Caissa wrote: »
    Accused should be entitled to due process.
    Caissa wrote: »
    I don't know if British law is analogous to Canadian law. In our courts the burden of proof is reasonable doubt in criminal cases. If there is found to be reasonable doubt an individual is acquitted.

    What exactly does "due process" mean in this context? As the linked article states, the clergyman in question "has never been charged with any criminal offences". The state is not trying to deprive Canon Hindley of his liberty or property, which are the usual cases where due process and reasonable doubt come into play. This is strictly a question of employment. I don't know what the standards for dismissal are in the UK generally or the Church of England specifically, but where I come from most jobs are "at will" employment, meaning that an employee can be sacked for almost any reason, or no reason at all. No process of any sort is due. One of the more popular reasons for getting fired is bad quarterly returns by your employer, for which there is no kind of due process. My guess is that the specifics of this particular situation made that kind of severance impossible, but I'm still not sure what process @Caissa thinks an employer owes an employee.
  • ThunderBunkThunderBunk Shipmate
    edited August 13
    UK employment law includes concepts of unfair and constructive dismissal, both of which would at least lead to a substantial settlement if upheld at an employment tribunal. This is one thing to bear in mind when considering payments made in such situations.

    An authoritative source on dismissal under UK employment law: https://www.acas.org.uk/dismissals/dismissals-with-and-without-notice
  • HarryCHHarryCH Shipmate
    Is there no mechanism for simply transferring him away from the cathedral to some post where his behavior (whether charged or not) would pose less of a problem?
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    I think the freehold prevented that ? But if he were effectively demoted without a finding against him, he might win at an employment tribunal.
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    edited August 13
    Crœsos wrote: »
    I don't know what the standards for dismissal are in the UK generally or the Church of England specifically, but where I come from most jobs are "at will" employment, meaning that an employee can be sacked for almost any reason, or no reason at all. No process of any sort is due. One of the more popular reasons for getting fired is bad quarterly returns by your employer, for which there is no kind of due process.
    I am under the impression that US employment law is egregiously weighted towards the employer relative to employment law in other liberal democracies.
    The UK is I think fairly to the right as liberal democracies go and an employer has to go through several hoops to demonstrate that they have a good reason to fire an employee for any reason other than that they don't need the job done anymore.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    I was wrong about the standard of proof above. It is the civil standard - balance of probability - but with the caveat that the more serious the allegation the more cogent the evidence must be. Almost certainly the alleged victims would have had to give evidence. (Which is what appears to have foundered the possibility of criminal prosecution.)

    There is no power to transfer him, or to effectively demote him. But equally, for the time being at least, being an office holder and not an employee means that he couldn’t go to an Employment Tribunal as it has no jurisdiction.
  • There's a Radio Four documentary giving more details here:

    BBC News - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0021w8q
    File on 4 - The priest and the pay-off - BBC Sounds

    If you Google Blackburn Cathedral and Andrew Hindley one of the top links is a Mystery Worshipper report from 2008.
  • Dafyd wrote: »
    Crœsos wrote: »
    I don't know what the standards for dismissal are in the UK generally or the Church of England specifically, but where I come from most jobs are "at will" employment, meaning that an employee can be sacked for almost any reason, or no reason at all. No process of any sort is due. One of the more popular reasons for getting fired is bad quarterly returns by your employer, for which there is no kind of due process.
    I am under the impression that US employment law is egregiously weighted towards the employer relative to employment law in other liberal democracies.
    Yes, though it can vary quite a bit from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, as well as depending on contracts and other factors.

    But when it comes to something like clergy placement, that’s generally going to be considered a church matter into which federal or state law is rarely going to come into play. It’s church law/rules that will govern.


  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    In the United States, most clergy appointments are considered "It will." meaning they can be released from the call by the governing authority for any reason. In the ELCA polity, a person has to be 1) Grossly heretical . or 2) Grossly Immoral, or 3) Grossly Incompetent to be relieved of the call.

    I have had one such case come forward while on the Synod Council. It was never proven the minister was a pedophile, but the bishop worked with him to find a job both were mutually satisfied with--it was outside of church ministry.

    I think the issue in the OP would be how the alleged victims would want to proceed. Would they end up suing the diocese, for instance. The church would have to limit its liability, that is for sure.
  • You may have seen this news story.

    We can’t speculate on the culpability of the man against whom the allegations were made. But for the future - what do we expect an institution to do in this situation ?

    There are people against whom there is sufficient evidence of criminal activity to warrant a prosecution, and those people should be prosecuted. But there are other people against whom there is not sufficient evidence to obtain a successful prosecution, but there is reasonable evidence to suggest that they might pose a risk to vulnerable people.

    In practice, most employers involved with young and/or vulnerable people will have strict safeguarding policies and codes of conduct, and breach of such a policy would be a disciplinary offence subject to punishment up to and including termination of employment. It seems likely that most people that "might pose a risk" will be in breach of safeguarding policies.

    It is perhaps more interesting in the specific case of priests, who aren't employees, but surely there's an analogous process to remove a priest for flagrant breach of policy?

  • This is probably me being dumb, but why could they not have saved themselves a helluva lot of time and money by reporting him to the cops / filing criminal charges as soon* as they had anything reasonable that would likely stand up in court, and letting the government handle it from then on out? It's not like there was effective secrecy anyway, it seems from reading. And it would have the added benefit of making the church authorities look properly responsible.

    * to be sure, during the iffy time before they had enough on him to call the cops, they'd still have to do the hard work of safeguarding; but it doesn't look like this man would have taken the hint and quit, so maybe not for so very long.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    As the BBC news story makes clear, he was reported to the police on five occasions, but they never felt they had enough evidence to bring charges.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    The reason I started the thread, is because the news article positions the CofE very clearly as having not done the right thing. But given the legal and regulatory frameworks, what I am asking - is what would be the right thing ?

    He was reported to the police five times, they tried to take him to disciplinary tribunals on multiple occasions but independent judges assessing the evidence found there weren’t grounds to proceed, they tried to pay him to leave, then they tried to give him ill health retirement and he appears to have challenged that and then they reached a financial settlement - and the diocese in the interim sought the support of the archbishops to close down the cathederal in case that did not work. (They also commissioned multiple independent professional assessments of risk, with varying conclusions.)

    Meanwhile they placed limits on his work to keep him away for from children.

    In these circumstances - what else do we think they should have done if anything ?
  • KoFKoF Shipmate
    edited August 14
    Again, if a person feels essentially untouchable by the law then it is hard to remove them from most senior positions in the UK. As far as I understand, at least some of the alleged victims were not prepared to assist the police.

    The Church of England is/was a weird anomaly in English employment law, with priests being essentially by state appointment but not employed by the church or state authorities. No other religious body in the UK has a similar status.

    Also I think one has to mix in the fact that there was inertia within the structure of the heirarchy, a tendency to avoid publicity and public scandal and incompetence.

    All of these things mixed together means that the result was almost inevitable. A payoff was likely the only possible way out.
  • The Soul Survivor scandal was last year and Emanuel Wimbledon a few years before that, so high profile untouchables are clearly an ongoing issue. How confident do clergy and others here feel about whistle blowing?
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    KoF wrote: »
    <snip>
    The Church of England is/was a weird anomaly in English employment law, with priests being essentially by state appointment but not employed by the church or state authorities. No other religious body in the UK has a similar status.<snip>
    That’s not really an accurate description of the situation. In general, clergy of any denomination in a standard local church ministry role* are regarded as office holders rather than employees. The processes for removing them from office vary from denomination to denomination, but they don’t generally fall within the remit of employment law.

    (*By contrast someone employed as a chaplain by, e.g., a university, hospital, or prison will have a contract of employment, and be subject to the usual operation of employment legislation. Although even employees can be hard to dismiss if they appear to be doing their job and no wrongdoing is proved.)
  • Has anyone considered the possibility that he hasn’t actually done anything wrong?
  • Has anyone considered the possibility that he hasn’t actually done anything wrong?

    It's possible he hasn't done anything illegal, but multiple independent allegations over several years would suggest he's been behaving inappropriately for a priest.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Please can we avoid speculation on his personal culpability.

    Doublethink, Temporary Epiphanies Hosting
  • Has anyone considered the possibility that he hasn’t actually done anything wrong?

    The number of individual unrelated complaints over a thirty year period, suggest that something was clearly not going right.
  • The reason I started the thread, is because the news article positions the CofE very clearly as having not done the right thing. But given the legal and regulatory frameworks, what I am asking - is what would be the right thing ?

    He was reported to the police five times, they tried to take him to disciplinary tribunals on multiple occasions but independent judges assessing the evidence found there weren’t grounds to proceed, they tried to pay him to leave, then they tried to give him ill health retirement and he appears to have challenged that and then they reached a financial settlement - and the diocese in the interim sought the support of the archbishops to close down the cathederal in case that did not work. (They also commissioned multiple independent professional assessments of risk, with varying conclusions.)

    Meanwhile they placed limits on his work to keep him away for from children.

    In these circumstances - what else do we think they should have done if anything ?

    This. I haven't read into the details of this case yet but on the face of it, the CofE has done the only thing it could.

    Step wise:
    1. There were concerns about the behaviour of a priest
    2. Five (5!) separate police investigations did not result in charges therefore he is legally innocent
    3. We know that abusers can evade conviction for a lot of reasons therefore there must be a risk of harm
    4. The CofE tried lots of things to deal with this but we're prevented from acting by legalities
    5. So to protect children from potential risk, they paid him off.

    That strikes me as a sacrificial and Christian thing to do.

    There may be details that change that assessment, but it seems to me the CofE did the only thing it could do.

    AFZ
  • Whatever the ins and outs of this case, it must have had an effect on the Cathedral and its people. Recent YouTube videos of the main Sunday Eucharist show a large choir (on holiday this month, I think), but a sparse congregation...
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited August 14
    Has anyone considered the possibility that he hasn’t actually done anything wrong?

    The number of individual unrelated complaints over a thirty year period, suggest that something was clearly not going right.

    The individual accused claims what was not going right was a homophobic attempt to drive him out. There is at least a little independent corroboration of that in the judge's critique of the NSPCC report.

    I think a key point for an institution in this situation is that they have no way of knowing which narrative mostly closely resembles the truth. So in that uncertainty they have to act to balance justice and safety - so what should they do ?
  • MarsupialMarsupial Shipmate
    From what others have said it sounds like the status of his employment made it very difficult to terminate him for cause. And termination without cause is always going to cost the employer money though $240K sounds like a lot… I suppose practically speaking the more secure the job is the more it’s going to cost to get someone to leave it.

    It sounds like things have changed since 2007. There needs to be some way of dealing with allegations of unacceptable behaviour at the disciplinary level that doesn’t depend on the results of any criminal process. But at first blush they seem to have done what they could in the situation they were in.
  • KoFKoF Shipmate
    edited August 14
    So in that uncertainty they have to act to balance justice and safety - so what should they do ?

    A risk assessment is exactly that, an assessment of risk. It's not saying that x or y definitely happened, it's not saying the legal standard of guilt has been met, it's simply saying what the risks might be.

    If I'm an institution where over a period of 20 years several independent and credible witnesses have come to me with remarkably similar reports, then clearly there's a risk there that needs managing.

    There's clearly at least a potential risk to children. As other have said it is not really high because nothing has been comprehensively proven, but if something was to happen in the future and it was shown that the institution didn't act on the risk assessment, then there's also a major financial and legal risk to the institution. That sounds unfair if there is truly a conspiracy against them, but what else can the institution do?

    There's also a risk to the complainee even if it is all lies, in the sense that over the last 20 years numerous and apparently unconnected people have conspired against them. In that situation, digging heels in and refusing to leave is an unacceptable risk to them.

    I don't think this would ever have got this far in any other job or religious position. It dragged on for as long as it did because the complaints kept coming and the individual concerned refused to resign.

  • MarsupialMarsupial Shipmate
    Re-reading the article there does seem to have been an attempt to bring the allegations to an independent tribunal but the independent judge refused to allow the proceedings to go ahead. It would be interesting to know more about what the process is and how it can be effectively short-circuited so early in the game.
  • Has anyone considered the possibility that he hasn’t actually done anything wrong?

    It's possible he hasn't done anything illegal, but multiple independent allegations over several years would suggest he's been behaving inappropriately for a priest.

    Because nobody would ever make a malicious accusation, or misconstrue a perfectly innocent interaction out of homophobic prejudice.
  • Marsupial wrote: »
    There needs to be some way of dealing with allegations of unacceptable behaviour at the disciplinary level that doesn’t depend on the results of any criminal process.

    As long as the first stage of that process is to honestly and open-minded establish the validity of the allegations, sure. Otherwise we’re just bringing back witch hunts with a 21st Century twist.
  • Has anyone considered the possibility that he hasn’t actually done anything wrong?

    It's possible he hasn't done anything illegal, but multiple independent allegations over several years would suggest he's been behaving inappropriately for a priest.

    Because nobody would ever make a malicious accusation, or misconstrue a perfectly innocent interaction out of homophobic prejudice.

    This is a case of multiple claims of abuse over three decades. Those on the other side of the interaction clearly didn't regard it as being innocent. There is no evidence that this is purely a case of a clerical elite victimising an unpopular colleague.

    Those who are on the margins have little to gain from making accusations against those in power.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Marsupial wrote: »
    Re-reading the article there does seem to have been an attempt to bring the allegations to an independent tribunal but the independent judge refused to allow the proceedings to go ahead. It would be interesting to know more about what the process is and how it can be effectively short-circuited so early in the game.
    It looks as though complaint(s) were brought out of time, and the judge refused to allow it (them) to proceed. The factors to be taken into account begin at paragraph 82 here.
  • North East QuineNorth East Quine Purgatory Host
    The podcast The Priest and the Payoff on BBC Sounds gives more information.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Here’s the report in the Church Times.
  • MarsupialMarsupial Shipmate
    BroJames wrote: »
    Marsupial wrote: »
    Re-reading the article there does seem to have been an attempt to bring the allegations to an independent tribunal but the independent judge refused to allow the proceedings to go ahead. It would be interesting to know more about what the process is and how it can be effectively short-circuited so early in the game.
    It looks as though complaint(s) were brought out of time, and the judge refused to allow it (them) to proceed. The factors to be taken into account begin at paragraph 82 here.

    I see. One year doesn’t seem like a very long time in the circumstances. But honestly the whole thing seems extremely mysterious. When actual bishops are alleging that strings are being pulled inappropriately and there’s nothing they can do about it something has gone seriously wrong somewhere.

  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    BroJames wrote: »
    Here’s the report in the Church Times.

    Drunkenness it is not normally a defence in law - so I am surprised it would be given as a reason not to proceed to tribunal.
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