What does the Trump win mean for the UK and other countries?

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  • CharlesReadCharlesRead Shipmate Posts: 24
    I expect I'm not the only person who wishes that Musk would become president of Mars, and leave this sad planet alone.

    Not that I wish the Martians any harm, but hopefully they'll be like the incorporeal blue fire globes in that wonderful short story by Ray Bradbury.

    Be careful with those Martians - they are well- defended as this clip from a British sci-fi film of 1966 makes clear:
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=HNbxA66wQ0c

    (There are some ironically relevant quotes in this clip - I liked 'We are under attack by a life form we don't understand'.)
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    Hugal wrote: »
    Other countries need to talk with the Trump government. Sensible discussions are best. Trump, however is just a bigger version of a school bully. You deal with bullies in one of two ways. Ignore them or fight back. I don’t think ignoring him is possible. So if he threatens tariff threaten back. If he threatens to invade, dare him. Be ready with a group of friends to push him back.

    Good luck with that. He owns the tuck shop.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    In the case of Columbia, they refused to allow two US military flights of deportees. Trump threatened stiff tariffs and suspended visas from Columbia. Columbia blinked. They said they would transport their own people. Trump is now crowing America is being respected now.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    In the case of Columbia, they refused to allow two US military flights of deportees. Trump threatened stiff tariffs and suspended visas from Columbia. Columbia blinked. They said they would transport their own people. Trump is now crowing America is being respected now.

    That doesn't really seem to be what happened. They were already allowing civilian flights of deportees - and have been for a number of years. Trump back-peddled on using military flights, things went back to normal and then Trump claimed it was a famous victory.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Canada had decided to put more soldiers at the border because Biden had asked them too. They told Donald they were putting more soldiers at the border and Donald has claimed victory and a freeze has been put on tariffs by both sides. So just say to Donald what he wants to hear and do what you were going to do and it will be fine.
    The US administration was surprised at the fight back from the EU. Good. It shows that Donald is not the all powerful leader of the world.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    edited February 4
    We (Canadians) do not have any soldiers at the border with the US.
    https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/border-plan-leblanc-trump-1.7412456
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Interesting the Canadian PM said they were committed to it. Unless I miss heard
  • I think the PM said he would put more personnel on the border. I do not think he specifically mentioned whether they would be civilian or military or both.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    We have Canadian Border Service at the border not military. We do not have any military at the border.
  • Here’s the announcement -

    https://www.canada.ca/en/public-safety-canada/news/2025/02/government-of-canada-expands-plan-to-strengthen-border-security.html

    They say civilian and law enforcement, which I assume means CBSA and RCMP. Though I wonder who is going to be flying the Black Hawks.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Our PM seems to think we could get out of a decent amount of the blanket tariffs Trump is pushing. Let’s see about that.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Bad news for Europe is the short answer. Signs of a radical shift in foreign policy already. Long term allies will be targeted.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    J D Vance just delivered an insulting speech at the Munich Security Conference. “There’s a new sheriff in town” (Trump) “so listen up while I put you all straight”.
  • The bright spot is that we may, in future, hear a little less guff about the Special Relationship/
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    edited February 14
    The Special Relationship between the USA and Russia!
  • Hugal wrote: »
    Our PM seems to think we could get out of a decent amount of the blanket tariffs Trump is pushing. Let’s see about that.

    Canada is not avoiding these tarifs, neither will the UK.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    edited February 14
    Hugal wrote: »
    Our PM seems to think we could get out of a decent amount of the blanket tariffs Trump is pushing. Let’s see about that.
    Canada is not avoiding these tarifs, neither will the UK.

    So far Canada is avoiding blanket tariffs. Trump folded like a cheap suit on that issue. As a face-saving measure Trump has decided that instead of blanket tariffs he'll impose targeted tariffs on Canadian steel and aluminum. Nobel laureate in economics Paul Krugman explains why these tariffs are likely to be counterproductive.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Not that it would bother Trump but doesn’t the WTO have a framework for tariffs which all countries signed up to the WTO are expected to abide by?

    (Not sure about enforcibility).
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    Vance met the AfD after his speech in Munich according to the Economist. The new regime is making a point of backing the far-right in Europe.

    In a (nowadays sadly rare) relatively sane Telegraph article the writer says Vance's message is simple: "drink the MAGA Kool-Aid or you're on your own"...
  • I may have misunderstood Trump (easy to do) but he seems to want goods imported from the USA to be exempt from VAT.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    That's my understanding too : )
  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    There's been a horrific amount of collaboration in the UK news media - various columns in newspapers praising Trump, someone from the AFD ( German Far Right party - basically Nazis) was allowed to chunter on on the radio news supporting Vance. Vance's sexist lying speech was called 'uncompromising' instead of lying, pro-fascist and authoritarian.

    Every time I turn on the news, it feels like to some extent they're normalising Trump and his regime or wont say what they ought to about the extent of the threat he poses. Starmer is another one who is too spineless to call him out.


    I really fear our electorate won't wake up in time and people pissed off at Labour who haven't thought through what Reform actually are will vote to put this brand of fucked- up incompetent authoritarianism, neo-fascism and bigotry in power in our country too.
  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    But not for Radio 4!
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    edited February 15
    Louise wrote: »
    There's been a horrific amount of collaboration in the UK news media - various columns in newspapers praising Trump, someone from the AFD ( German Far Right party - basically Nazis) was allowed to chunter on on the radio news supporting Vance. Vance's sexist lying speech was called 'uncompromising' instead of lying, pro-fascist and authoritarian.

    Every time I turn on the news, it feels like to some extent they're normalising Trump and his regime or wont say what they ought to about the extent of the threat he poses. Starmer is another one who is too spineless to call him out.

    I really fear our electorate won't wake up in time and people pissed off at Labour who haven't thought through what Reform actually are will vote to put this brand of fucked- up incompetent authoritarianism, neo-fascism and bigotry in power in our country too.

    I love your idealism Louise. Free speech is only for fascists however. As they own the media nearly as much as Putin does. Starmer has to swim in these global fascist waters. Until Farage. Whom the electorate will sufficiently adore and lay down and sleep with.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I’m far too old to be a defeatist. I’m with Louise. It’s not idealistic to swim against this tide. It’s stupid or cynical to swim with it. The measure of a civilised society is its treatment of minorities. If you believe that, stand up for it.

  • Eirenist wrote: »
    I may have misunderstood Trump (easy to do) but he seems to want goods imported from the USA to be exempt from VAT.

    Well, perhaps it is time for us (following Ukraine's recent lead, I read) to invite the Chinese in for discussions. If you're going to get f***** by / into bed with an authoritarian demagogue, perhaps best to consider a range of options.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    A week or so ago there was some Trump spokesperson on the news saying that tariffs on UK goods would be justified because charging VAT on goods from the US put US produced goods at a disadvantage. Which seems to misrepresent what VAT actually is, and may mean that the Trump administration doesn't actually know.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    Eirenist wrote: »
    I may have misunderstood Trump (easy to do) but he seems to want goods imported from the USA to be exempt from VAT.

    Well, perhaps it is time for us (following Ukraine's recent lead, I read) to invite the Chinese in for discussions. If you're going to get f***** by / into bed with an authoritarian demagogue, perhaps best to consider a range of options.
    It's a clever, desperate roll of the dice; a failed attempt to queer the pitch. Which only has two players. Putin. Trump.
    Barnabas62 wrote: »
    I’m far too old to be a defeatist. I’m with Louise. It’s not idealistic to swim against this tide. It’s stupid or cynical to swim with it. The measure of a civilised society is its treatment of minorities. If you believe that, stand up for it.
    Starmer is neither stupid nor cynical. He's realist. Of course I believe it. So does Starmer. But he's trying to stay in power, and we're not. We've always had to court fascism, Orwell's nationalism. Undocumented immigrants are not part of 'us' according to the majority. If you know how to change their minds at the ballot box, please run on it. Civilization is intrinsically unfair since it weeded out alternatives (Graeber & Wengrow).
    A week or so ago there was some Trump spokesperson on the news saying that tariffs on UK goods would be justified because charging VAT on goods from the US put US produced goods at a disadvantage. Which seems to misrepresent what VAT actually is, and may mean that the Trump administration doesn't actually know.
    That's rational Alan. Which doesn't apply. Their ignorance of purchase, sales tax, despite it being the source of a third of states revenue, is baked in irreversibly à la the Law of the Medes and the Persians.
  • Eirenist wrote: »
    I may have misunderstood Trump (easy to do) but he seems to want goods imported from the USA to be exempt from VAT.

    His claim is that VAT is equivalent to a tariff, rather than a sales tax, which is either another example of his stupidity, or an example of him using blustery stupidity as a negotiating tactic. Either is possible.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Eirenist wrote: »
    I may have misunderstood Trump (easy to do) but he seems to want goods imported from the USA to be exempt from VAT.

    His claim is that VAT is equivalent to a tariff, rather than a sales tax, which is either another example of his stupidity, or an example of him using blustery stupidity as a negotiating tactic. Either is possible.

    The term has the word tax in it. I admit it is more complicated than just a sales tax but it is still a tax. Trump said that a Canadian right winger should run for Prime Minister. His lack of understanding is breathtaking.
  • VAT is a sales tax. If you sell something you add VAT to the sales value. There are exceptions for "necessities" and there are two (technically three if you include zero) different rates.
  • Leorning CnihtLeorning Cniht Shipmate
    edited February 21
    The Rogue wrote: »
    VAT is a sales tax. If you sell something you add VAT to the sales value. There are exceptions for "necessities" and there are two (technically three if you include zero) different rates.

    Although VAT differs from a US-style sales tax in how the accounting is done, which means it's often misunderstood by people whose experience is US-centric.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    The Rogue wrote: »
    VAT is a sales tax. If you sell something you add VAT to the sales value. There are exceptions for "necessities" and there are two (technically three if you include zero) different rates.

    Although VAT differs from a US-style sales tax in how the accounting is done, which means it's often misunderstood by people whose experience is US-centric.
    That may be true for the average American who may not notice much more than they need to add sales taxes to their bills at home but travel overseas those taxes are included in the displayed price. But, for someone who has established businesses, like say golf courses, in other nations then they should have a basic understanding of different tax systems.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    edited February 21
    Yes to the customer it is a part of the cost of the product but as mentioned accounting wise it is a whole different ball game.
    Yes business from outside the UK will probably have a basic grasp of the system, but probably and do are different things. Certainly someone should be able to tell Trump the difference between tariffs and VAT.
  • But would they dare to?
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    I think obviously Trump knows this already. It's just an excuse for his ranting.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Trump is complaining that the EU doesn’t accept certain US goods. The reason is they don’t meet EU regulations. We in the UK have stuff not accepted by the EU. Stuff going to Northern Ireland has to be appropriately labelled. Would the US government accept any goods from outside that don’t meet Us standards?
  • Hugal wrote: »
    Trump is complaining that the EU doesn’t accept certain US goods. The reason is they don’t meet EU regulations. We in the UK have stuff not accepted by the EU. Stuff going to Northern Ireland has to be appropriately labelled. Would the US government accept any goods from outside that don’t meet Us standards?

    But the US standards are the best in the world. Nobody else has standards better than we do. For real. Those other countries aren't being fair to us. It's very unfair. They invent their own standards to protect their own industries while they're busy selling to us. Unfair. We're going to fix it.
    </Trump>
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    I am getting ever-so-slightly worried about Trump's positive comments about Keir Starmer. What is the PM doing to receive these glowing tributes? Is he "Breaking Bad" like Walter White?
  • Starmer is reported as aiming to be a 'bridge between the USA and Europe'. As far as Trump is concered, thus is likely to mean 'a means of passing on his instructions'.
    Meanwhile, The Times reports that contacts in the US Defense Department have warned their UK counterpsrts against relying 0vermuch on cut-price American equipment. Fistly, because if Trump thinks we've got it too cheaply, he may send in a supplemetary bill. Secondly, if we try to use it against his wishes, 'You may find your missiles won't fire and your planes won't fly.'
  • I am getting ever-so-slightly worried about Trump's positive comments about Keir Starmer. What is the PM doing to receive these glowing tributes? Is he "Breaking Bad" like Walter White?

    I wouldn't put too much store in it in itself; he's often quite positive about people the first time he meets them, especially if they prove to be sufficiently obsequious.

    Macron was pretty popular with Trump for a short period after the invite to attend the Bastille Day celebrations (the theatre of which would have appealed to Trump).
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    The BBC are basically saying the results of the meeting were positive but this is Donald Trump that could all change.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Hugal wrote: »
    The BBC are basically saying the results of the meeting were positive but this is Donald Trump that could all change.

    Too right it can.

    Trump 18/02 - "Zelensky is a dictator!"
    Trump 27/02 - "Did I say that? I can't believe I said that! Next question please."
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    edited March 3
    The current world situation is shifting the constellations of politics. Here's a vignette from Stormont: SF First Minister is uncomfortable with British government order from Belfast factory for Ukrainian arms: she would prefer to prioritise peace negotiations despite being very anti-Trump. DUP deputy first minister much more in favour of the order despite being more Trump-sympathetic.

    I feel a certain irony in Sinn Fein suggesting that weapons of war can never be the way forward.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Well Trump has posted on Truth Social that if the people of Gaza do not give up the hostages they are dead. In the same post he threatened Hamas but this particular threat was to the people of Gaza. He has threatened to kill them. Some media outlets are reporting it as him telling Hamas they are dead but the final part of the message was clearly aimed at Gazens not just Hamas.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    I am getting ever-so-slightly worried about Trump's positive comments about Keir Starmer. What is the PM doing to receive these glowing tributes? Is he "Breaking Bad" like Walter White?

    I wouldn't put too much store in it in itself; he's often quite positive about people the first time he meets them, especially if they prove to be sufficiently obsequious.

    And at this point, it's in the UK's interest to have cordial relations with the POTUS.

    Now, if Trump starts threatening the UK with the same kinda tariff/annexationist bullshit he's pushing on Canada etc, that's a different story.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    The current world situation is shifting the constellations of politics. Here's a vignette from Stormont: SF First Minister is uncomfortable with British government order from Belfast factory for Ukrainian arms: she would prefer to prioritise peace negotiations despite being very anti-Trump. DUP deputy first minister much more in favour of the order despite being more Trump-sympathetic.

    I feel a certain irony in Sinn Fein suggesting that weapons of war can never be the way forward.

    What is Sinn Fein's general attitude toward Russia vs. Ukraine?
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    stetson wrote: »
    I am getting ever-so-slightly worried about Trump's positive comments about Keir Starmer. What is the PM doing to receive these glowing tributes? Is he "Breaking Bad" like Walter White?

    I wouldn't put too much store in it in itself; he's often quite positive about people the first time he meets them, especially if they prove to be sufficiently obsequious.

    And at this point, it's in the UK's interest to have cordial relations with the POTUS.

    Is it really. Maybe it is. I am dubious though. There's a danger of becoming a Marco Rubio on a national scale.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    I am getting ever-so-slightly worried about Trump's positive comments about Keir Starmer. What is the PM doing to receive these glowing tributes? Is he "Breaking Bad" like Walter White?

    I wouldn't put too much store in it in itself; he's often quite positive about people the first time he meets them, especially if they prove to be sufficiently obsequious.

    And at this point, it's in the UK's interest to have cordial relations with the POTUS.

    Is it really. Maybe it is. I am dubious though. There's a danger of becoming a Marco Rubio on a national scale.

    Well, if the alternative is Trump threatening to annex you and impose 25% tariffs on your exports...
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