I live alone. One Christmas I was absolutely exhausted so I told anyone who asked that I was having Christmas with someone else. After Christmas one of Mum's cousins, J asked what I had sone for Christmas.
So I told her honestly what I had done. She fully approved, and the following Christmas did the same herself.
So there I was at 40 leading Mum's 80+ year old cousin astray.
I live alone. One Christmas I was absolutely exhausted so I told anyone who asked that I was having Christmas with someone else. After Christmas one of Mum's cousins, J asked what I had sone for Christmas.
So I told her honestly what I had done. She fully approved, and the following Christmas did the same herself.
So there I was at 40 leading Mum's 80+ year old cousin astray.
I don't know if it's a separate thread but how do you communicate with someone who insists (1) you're a liar (2) You have memory problems (3) You're a fantasist
(You have multiple independent and also expert testimony beyond yourself that this is not the case)
I am at a loss.
I don't know if this is at its core dementia - because looking back, the startling false accusations began when my partner and I first got together 23 years ago, when the person was just in their mid fifties and they don't appear to do it to other people- just me and partner are the subject of the really bizarre stuff that demonises my partner and completely invalidates my testimony and experiences.
Dementia could have made this worse but in a way it doesn't matter - even if it's some other psychological mechanism or condition it's not the person's fault, I can't change it and it's stunningly hurtful and hard to cope with.
I would imagine there might be non- medical self-help resources and lived experience of carers of how to approach such a situation, so I'd be really grateful to hear if anyone can share.
I don't know if it's a separate thread but how do you communicate with someone who insists (1) you're a liar (2) You have memory problems (3) You're a fantasist
(You have multiple independent and also expert testimony beyond yourself that this is not the case)
I am at a loss.
I don't know if this is at its core dementia - because looking back, the startling false accusations began when my partner and I first got together 23 years ago, when the person was just in their mid fifties and they don't appear to do it to other people- just me and partner are the subject of the really bizarre stuff that demonises my partner and completely invalidates my testimony and experiences.
Dementia could have made this worse but in a way it doesn't matter - even if it's some other psychological mechanism or condition it's not the person's fault, I can't change it and it's stunningly hurtful and hard to cope with.
I would imagine there might be non- medical self-help resources and lived experience of carers of how to approach such a situation, so I'd be really grateful to hear if anyone can share.
I lived with just such a person for 56 years. Not in my home, thank God, after the first 22... Mine was a narcissist. She also altered reality to suit herself, freely, for all the years I've known her, and had no dementia or diagnosable medical condition that would account for it. And so I got accused of lying, making shit up, trying to get attention by claiming (perfectly real) medical problems, and so forth. I was told events I remembered (and everybody else did, too) had never happened. You know the kind of thing.
Before I say anything else, I'm a bit freaked out by the suggestion (hopefully I misread you?) that you are this person's carer. Dear God, that is NOT something you can do--at least, not in the same home, with daily presence and all that. It's just not. Look into what other options exist out there, even if you have to go to services for indigent people. Or if you have to, swap caregiving with someone else who also has a difficult relative (I sort of did this for a while, because it's much easier to care for someone else's abuser than your own. They don't know where your buttons are, and their approval means nothing to you.) Ask yourself, "If I were dead, what would this person be relying on?" Because otherwise you're in for long term crucifixion. Please, no.
Moving on, then...
The first thing to keep in mind is that you are NOT GOING TO CHANGE THIS PERSON. They have deep-seated issues that have nothing to do with you or your partner at base--this is almost certainly something that goes back to their childhood--and though you are the target, and it feels (and is meant!) super personally, you are not the cause. What that means is you cannot change the behavior. If you did not exist, the person would find some other target to have the exact same behaviors to.
The second thing to keep in mind is that they know EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING. This is not a case of miscommunication that you can overcome with goodwill and trying harder. There is no goodwill on the other side of this relationship. There is a messed-up human being who for whatever reason, wants to see you in pain. The more you make your pain evident, the more this person feels successful.
(I realize I am describing evil, here. And yet, even in my narcissist, there was some good. That's the problem, in a way. The good comes to the surface once in a while, and I would get suckered in, thinking maybe we were finally starting something positive together. And then the old pattern starts replaying... It's the classic abuse pattern. Leaving altogether is one answer. But if you feel you can't do that (I couldn't, for reasons of conscience), the best place to reach, with the help of God, is a point where you can regard the person as you would a wounded tiger--with pity, but with detachment, and a determination not to feed yourself to it.)
If you can't cut ties altogether, about the only thing you can really do is to protect yourself as best possible, and, I suppose, pray. Now, protection CAN be done, and with varying degrees of effectiveness.
The first thing to do is if at all possible, to get into good counseling. Nuff said on that.
Regarding the accusations of lying--
When she says you're fantasizing/lying/making shit up for attention (yes, mine said this to me too), say, "I'm sorry you feel that way" and walk away. Do not argue AT ALL. The person almost certainly knows the truth, this isn't ABOUT truth, this is about power and causing pain to you. Use the broken record technique. "I'm sorry you feel that way." "I'm sorry you feel that way." and so on, and so forth. Give no reasons, make no explanations, offer no examples. Say your canned line and walk away. It will drive the person insane (well, more than they are already), because if you aren't there to cause pain to, what are they going to do with their time?
Do NOT offer your pain to the person in an attempt to get them to see the damage they're doing to you. They already know. Your pain is the whole point of the accusation. Walk away. (continued)
What follows are general guidelines for dealing with such a person. They may or may not be helpful.
At a time when you have the spoons to do it, sit down, with a pad of paper, and decide precisely what boundaries you want to set with this person. How often will you see/call/visit them, and when? The answers could range from "not at all" to "a little," but expect them to behave as they are behaving, and figure out how long it will knock you out for. What is the cost of each call/visit? Figure that out. In my case, I determined I would call this person no more often than every two weeks, and I would have on hand a person to interrupt me with a plausible excuse to get off the phone if it became too overwhelming. (I put up with this much because there were others in the family to protect. I don't recommend self-sacrifice without knowing exactly what you are doing and paying, and why.)
Which reminds me--figure out WHY you are willing to give x amount of your time and stress to them. If you know why you are doing it, it's easier to grit your teeth--and also to walk out when you determine you've met as much of your goal as you're going to meet, given the person's abuse, on this occasion, gotta go now, X, bye.
In my case, the cost for a 20 minute phone call was 48 hours of feeling like shit and being incapable of getting anything done. Thus the two weeks' recovery time.
We also had yearly visits. (I highly recommend moving thousands of miles away.) I never got into one of those without having an exit plan (=my own rental car, a hotel or relative's home I could retreat to if she crossed my "can't/won't take this anymore" boundary, and plenty of money to get the hell out of anywhere--restaurant, etc.--without being trapped because we were there as her guests or something.
I went into each visit knowing it was going to be x number of days of listening to her tell me bitter, angry lies about everyone she knew, including people I loved, because she was incapable of paying any attention to my own life (which she knew very little about, by her own choice), had a very restricted circle of acquaintances (due to her behavior) and would therefore monologue for ages. I intentionally allowed her to monologue as she pleased as long as she did not break a couple of barriers. In my case, those were a) if you ever start talking about fat and weight loss, the conversation is over and I am leaving your presence instantly--even if that means walking out of a restaurant or leaving a family event. b) if you badmouth my sister or brother, ditto. I had to enforce those boundaries for a couple of years before she realized they were firm and she would get the same unwanted result (no audience) every time. It meant the monologues shifted to rage against the neighbors and friends she hadn't seen for years, but hey, that was far easier to cope with for me. I just let it wash over me.
If you set a similar boundary regarding your partner, expect to have to state it once and have him/her test it at least three times with you carrying out the consequence every single time, instantly. No pleading, no emotional outbursts, no argumentation--just "Bye, X, we're going." And go.
Keep in mind that if you fail to carry out the consequence even once, he/she will become that much stronger in the bad behavior--because now there's hope that you don't really mean it. It will take so much longer to overcome the lapse. But even a narcissist can learn if you're withholding what they want the most--that is, your attention and presence.
Expect rage. Remove yourself and your partner instantly. Don't get into situations where you can't remove yourself, like a train trip (yes, this happened to me). Expect to be badmouthed for your new boundaries behind your back as well as to your face. (Don't worry--any sensible person already knows what he/she is, and will admire you for getting the hell away from it.)
If any of this sounds familiar, there are a couple of resources (books) that might help. One is The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker. Another is Karyl McBride's Will I Ever Be Good Enough. For bite-sized advice, try captainawkward.com.
In my case, the cost for a 20 minute phone call was 48 hours of feeling like shit and being incapable of getting anything done. Thus the two weeks' recovery time.
This!
And so I got accused of lying, making shit up, trying to get attention by claiming (perfectly real) medical problems, and so forth. I was told events I remembered (and everybody else did, too) had never happened. You know the kind of thing.
Also this! I got (among other things) accused of having secretly given birth and that my lovely mild mannered and delightful partner had made me get rid of the child and give it away! No such thing ever happened nor would anyone who knew him or me even slightly have believed this for a moment.
No, thankfully I'm not the carer nor likely to be now as she has X who they decided to half disinherit me for and completely disinherit my family for the week before Christmas. I just thought people who were carers for people with these problems might have some ideas so I'd ask. I'm clear after finding out how staggeringly I've been discounted and disbelieved and written off and negated as a person not to be listened to or credited at all on false and hurtful grounds that I can't do this.
Don't get into situations where you can't remove yourself, like a train trip (yes, this happened to me)
Yes this happened to me getting trapped in a moving car with the person in question driving while coming out with alarming and upsetting stuff. I've gone to great lengths to avoid it ever since but need to relearn to drive.
Thanks so much for this. We're concentrating on getting though the festive season and then I will likely sit down and do the exercise about boundaries with my partner.
I would also add, tell them as little about your life as you can, because they can and will use anything like that as ammunition, maybe sooner, but maybe unexpectedly later. I had to learn that with my own parents.
You’re welcome! I used dark humor to survive such occasions. The two of you can play Nasty Comments Bingo—or lay bets on how long it takes her to comment on subject Y. Or attempt to predict what the next outrageous lie will be—dream them up and whoever gets closest to reality gets a foot rub, that sort of thing.
Comments
So I told her honestly what I had done. She fully approved, and the following Christmas did the same herself.
So there I was at 40 leading Mum's 80+ year old cousin astray.
🕯🕯🕯
Love it
(You have multiple independent and also expert testimony beyond yourself that this is not the case)
I am at a loss.
I don't know if this is at its core dementia - because looking back, the startling false accusations began when my partner and I first got together 23 years ago, when the person was just in their mid fifties and they don't appear to do it to other people- just me and partner are the subject of the really bizarre stuff that demonises my partner and completely invalidates my testimony and experiences.
Dementia could have made this worse but in a way it doesn't matter - even if it's some other psychological mechanism or condition it's not the person's fault, I can't change it and it's stunningly hurtful and hard to cope with.
I would imagine there might be non- medical self-help resources and lived experience of carers of how to approach such a situation, so I'd be really grateful to hear if anyone can share.
I lived with just such a person for 56 years. Not in my home, thank God, after the first 22... Mine was a narcissist. She also altered reality to suit herself, freely, for all the years I've known her, and had no dementia or diagnosable medical condition that would account for it. And so I got accused of lying, making shit up, trying to get attention by claiming (perfectly real) medical problems, and so forth. I was told events I remembered (and everybody else did, too) had never happened. You know the kind of thing.
Before I say anything else, I'm a bit freaked out by the suggestion (hopefully I misread you?) that you are this person's carer. Dear God, that is NOT something you can do--at least, not in the same home, with daily presence and all that. It's just not. Look into what other options exist out there, even if you have to go to services for indigent people. Or if you have to, swap caregiving with someone else who also has a difficult relative (I sort of did this for a while, because it's much easier to care for someone else's abuser than your own. They don't know where your buttons are, and their approval means nothing to you.) Ask yourself, "If I were dead, what would this person be relying on?" Because otherwise you're in for long term crucifixion. Please, no.
Moving on, then...
The first thing to keep in mind is that you are NOT GOING TO CHANGE THIS PERSON. They have deep-seated issues that have nothing to do with you or your partner at base--this is almost certainly something that goes back to their childhood--and though you are the target, and it feels (and is meant!) super personally, you are not the cause. What that means is you cannot change the behavior. If you did not exist, the person would find some other target to have the exact same behaviors to.
The second thing to keep in mind is that they know EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING. This is not a case of miscommunication that you can overcome with goodwill and trying harder. There is no goodwill on the other side of this relationship. There is a messed-up human being who for whatever reason, wants to see you in pain. The more you make your pain evident, the more this person feels successful.
(I realize I am describing evil, here. And yet, even in my narcissist, there was some good. That's the problem, in a way. The good comes to the surface once in a while, and I would get suckered in, thinking maybe we were finally starting something positive together. And then the old pattern starts replaying... It's the classic abuse pattern. Leaving altogether is one answer. But if you feel you can't do that (I couldn't, for reasons of conscience), the best place to reach, with the help of God, is a point where you can regard the person as you would a wounded tiger--with pity, but with detachment, and a determination not to feed yourself to it.)
If you can't cut ties altogether, about the only thing you can really do is to protect yourself as best possible, and, I suppose, pray. Now, protection CAN be done, and with varying degrees of effectiveness.
The first thing to do is if at all possible, to get into good counseling. Nuff said on that.
Regarding the accusations of lying--
When she says you're fantasizing/lying/making shit up for attention (yes, mine said this to me too), say, "I'm sorry you feel that way" and walk away. Do not argue AT ALL. The person almost certainly knows the truth, this isn't ABOUT truth, this is about power and causing pain to you. Use the broken record technique. "I'm sorry you feel that way." "I'm sorry you feel that way." and so on, and so forth. Give no reasons, make no explanations, offer no examples. Say your canned line and walk away. It will drive the person insane (well, more than they are already), because if you aren't there to cause pain to, what are they going to do with their time?
Do NOT offer your pain to the person in an attempt to get them to see the damage they're doing to you. They already know. Your pain is the whole point of the accusation. Walk away. (continued)
At a time when you have the spoons to do it, sit down, with a pad of paper, and decide precisely what boundaries you want to set with this person. How often will you see/call/visit them, and when? The answers could range from "not at all" to "a little," but expect them to behave as they are behaving, and figure out how long it will knock you out for. What is the cost of each call/visit? Figure that out. In my case, I determined I would call this person no more often than every two weeks, and I would have on hand a person to interrupt me with a plausible excuse to get off the phone if it became too overwhelming. (I put up with this much because there were others in the family to protect. I don't recommend self-sacrifice without knowing exactly what you are doing and paying, and why.)
Which reminds me--figure out WHY you are willing to give x amount of your time and stress to them. If you know why you are doing it, it's easier to grit your teeth--and also to walk out when you determine you've met as much of your goal as you're going to meet, given the person's abuse, on this occasion, gotta go now, X, bye.
In my case, the cost for a 20 minute phone call was 48 hours of feeling like shit and being incapable of getting anything done. Thus the two weeks' recovery time.
We also had yearly visits. (I highly recommend moving thousands of miles away.) I never got into one of those without having an exit plan (=my own rental car, a hotel or relative's home I could retreat to if she crossed my "can't/won't take this anymore" boundary, and plenty of money to get the hell out of anywhere--restaurant, etc.--without being trapped because we were there as her guests or something.
I went into each visit knowing it was going to be x number of days of listening to her tell me bitter, angry lies about everyone she knew, including people I loved, because she was incapable of paying any attention to my own life (which she knew very little about, by her own choice), had a very restricted circle of acquaintances (due to her behavior) and would therefore monologue for ages. I intentionally allowed her to monologue as she pleased as long as she did not break a couple of barriers. In my case, those were a) if you ever start talking about fat and weight loss, the conversation is over and I am leaving your presence instantly--even if that means walking out of a restaurant or leaving a family event. b) if you badmouth my sister or brother, ditto. I had to enforce those boundaries for a couple of years before she realized they were firm and she would get the same unwanted result (no audience) every time. It meant the monologues shifted to rage against the neighbors and friends she hadn't seen for years, but hey, that was far easier to cope with for me. I just let it wash over me.
If you set a similar boundary regarding your partner, expect to have to state it once and have him/her test it at least three times with you carrying out the consequence every single time, instantly. No pleading, no emotional outbursts, no argumentation--just "Bye, X, we're going." And go.
Keep in mind that if you fail to carry out the consequence even once, he/she will become that much stronger in the bad behavior--because now there's hope that you don't really mean it. It will take so much longer to overcome the lapse. But even a narcissist can learn if you're withholding what they want the most--that is, your attention and presence.
Expect rage. Remove yourself and your partner instantly. Don't get into situations where you can't remove yourself, like a train trip (yes, this happened to me). Expect to be badmouthed for your new boundaries behind your back as well as to your face. (Don't worry--any sensible person already knows what he/she is, and will admire you for getting the hell away from it.)
If any of this sounds familiar, there are a couple of resources (books) that might help. One is The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker. Another is Karyl McBride's Will I Ever Be Good Enough. For bite-sized advice, try captainawkward.com.
So much of this rings bells.
This!
Also this! I got (among other things) accused of having secretly given birth and that my lovely mild mannered and delightful partner had made me get rid of the child and give it away! No such thing ever happened nor would anyone who knew him or me even slightly have believed this for a moment.
No, thankfully I'm not the carer nor likely to be now as she has X who they decided to half disinherit me for and completely disinherit my family for the week before Christmas. I just thought people who were carers for people with these problems might have some ideas so I'd ask. I'm clear after finding out how staggeringly I've been discounted and disbelieved and written off and negated as a person not to be listened to or credited at all on false and hurtful grounds that I can't do this.
Yes this happened to me getting trapped in a moving car with the person in question driving while coming out with alarming and upsetting stuff. I've gone to great lengths to avoid it ever since but need to relearn to drive.
Thanks so much for this. We're concentrating on getting though the festive season and then I will likely sit down and do the exercise about boundaries with my partner.
I really really appreciate this. Thanks so much.
Also, sending love and hugs and prayers.
Thank you both so much!
Love the tactics, Lamb Chopped!
https://youtube.com/shorts/1aySiASXMak?si=0AEs7P-zzfyPSe3V