@betjemaniac what would you recommend of Betjeman for the uninitiated?
I'd also like to know...
Today is the Feast of St John of the Cross and he's been a great influence on my thinking about the darkness and uncertainties of the mystical life. Very austere and bleak at times but some dazzling poetry.
@betjemaniac what would you recommend of Betjeman for the uninitiated?
The easiest way in is probably to get hold of the Collected Poems (paperback is a fairly standard paperback book price), then jump around in that. I’m probably going to mangle some titles here but to get your ‘ear’ in actually look at the non-religious stuff first - how to get on in society, indoor games near Newbury, Slough etc
Then get into the ‘heavy’ stuff on faith, doubt, death - death in Leamington, portrait of a deaf man, Christmas, in a Bath tea shop, hymn, for nineteenth century burials, Croydon…
Away from the poetry there are several collections of his radio talks. All are wonderful but the volume ‘Sweet Songs of Zion’ brings together his broadcasts on hymns and hymnodists and is always fascinating.
Then of course there’s the (massive) verse autobiography Summoned by Bells - but that’s at the back of Collected Poems anyway.
That’s where I’d start. Given I’ve got pretty much the entire output of him including all the letters etc I can provide recommendations for ‘higher Betjeman studies’ too!
I'm tempted to say Jürgen Moltmann, Jürgen Moltmann and Jürgen Moltmann, and I can't think of any others in theology who have quite so completely shaped my thought.
But theology is not all. I know it sounds pretentious but James Joyce just wowed my sense of the power of language - arguably English! - and TS Eliot and RS Thomas took me deep into the heart of a poetic God. New Zealand's Janet Frame inspired me for a long time, though it's been a while since I read her.
I don't read enough these days. So busy, so easily fatigued when I'm not.
I'm not reading as much as I used to either @Zappa.
I find a lot of Christian books quite difficult. They are either for beginners and a bit like a reading comprehension exercise, or they are very theological and my brain gets lost quite easily.
I always enjoyed reading Rachel Held Evans blog and her books. I always found her take on life and being faithful and wrestling with life's hard things to be beneficial.
Now that she is no longer with us I enjoy Nadia Bolz Weber, Jeff Chu and Sarah Bessey, all friends of Rachel. I particularly enjoy that they are going to appear magically in my inbox as well as their books being available.
and TS Eliot and RS Thomas took me deep into the heart of a poetic God.
Indeed. Add George Herbert and John Donne if we're allowed four. Here, RST reads like a response to a Purg post:
… There have been times
when, after long on my knees
in a cold chancel, a stone has rolled
from my mind, and I have looked
in and seen the old questions lie
folded and in a place
by themselves, like the piled
graveclothes of love’s risen body
An English teacher in high school introduced me to Ursula Le Guin. Another to Donne*.
As others have written, many new to me also. Thank you all for sharing.
---
St Isaac the Syrian: as one who gets caught up in my own sin to despair at times, his emphasis, far beyond many others, on God's Love is a needful perspective.
I will preface this by saying my reading of him is very, very limited, and my philosophical reading so little as to be non-existent, but the very little I read of Michel de Montaigne decades ago struck me: if I understood/recall correctly one of many of his teachings is the notion of our imperfections and self-reflection which was helpful to me as a perfectionist, as one at work who would be terrified of starting something lest I go down the wrong path, who would check everything 20 times, horrified at getting something wrong, etc. I'm not "cured" of this entirely, but acknowledging my failings, and that I will fail, was, is now, thank you Nick for this thread that caused me to consider this now, a good lesson.
I'll repeat Donne here. He gave voice to my (non-practising at the time) Christian beliefs and made me realise poetry, outside the Scriptures, could communicate Truths. I don't claim to be intelligent or wise, I am very simple honestly, and I was slow to this perhaps, but this served as a launching point for other poets, mystics, etc (St John of the Cross was mentioned, thanks to one-time Shipmate Nunc Dimittis who recommended him), which has given voice to my faith.
* after I expressed intense boredom in the poet we were studying for the Higher School Certificate -- final 2 secondary years here. God, I was (am?) insufferable...poor teachers. And this at a bog standard government school where for a term he stayed behind after school once a week to lead me through Donne. Off topic, but some teachers go far beyond, far beyond, what is required of them...
One writer Mrs. RR and I love is Laurie Lee. The influence (if any) he had was to help me appreciate good writing and in my own articles to (hopefully) recognise and rewrite any of my own ugly sentences. A dear friend has recently pointed me in the direction of:
: https://www.longtailfilms.co.uk/LostTapes.html
We watched these yesterday evening. Just wonderful!
One writer Mrs. RR and I love is Laurie Lee. The influence (if any) he had was to help me appreciate good writing and in my own articles to (hopefully) recognise and rewrite any of my own ugly sentences. A dear friend has recently pointed me in the direction of:
: https://www.longtailfilms.co.uk/LostTapes.html
We watched these yesterday evening. Just wonderful!
Growing up an elderly widow lives across the road from us. She only died a couple of years ago - well into her 90s.
One Christmas, after my mother died, and when she was going to be on her own she joined us for Christmas lunch. It started with ‘send a plate over’ became ‘I’ll just come for the food’ and ended with her staying about 8 hours and drinking the bar dry…
Anyway, at some point in the conversation it turned out that she was a relative of Laurie Lee and out poured all sorts of stories. I just wish I could remember half of them but see above comment about the bar…
Oh, Sharon K Penman definitely influenced my life - particularly the Welsh trilogy.
I used to belong to a historical re-enactment group. We portrayed medieval Welsh mercenaries because our Glorious Leader had read the Welsh trilogy and asked: "Why is nobody re-enacting this? It's brilliant!"
I had also read the Welsh trilogy and it was one of the reasons I joined that group, which was a big part of my life for about 10 years.
The books start with Prince Llewellyn the Great and work through to his grandson Llewellyn the Last. The last part of the last book is particularly hard to get through if you know anything about the history of the Welsh being conquered by Edward I.
Oh, Sharon K Penman definitely influenced my life - particularly the Welsh trilogy.
I used to belong to a historical re-enactment group. We portrayed medieval Welsh mercenaries because our Glorious Leader had read the Welsh trilogy and asked: "Why is nobody re-enacting this? It's brilliant!"
I had also read the Welsh trilogy and it was one of the reasons I joined that group, which was a big part of my life for about 10 years.
The books start with Prince Llewellyn the Great and work through to his grandson Llewellyn the Last. The last part of the last book is particularly hard to get through if you know anything about the history of the Welsh being conquered by Edward I.
Although I felt for Llewellyn the last, my hero was actually Simon de Montfort.
However, my favourite work of hers has to be
The Sunne in Splendour,
@Telford Sunne in Splendour was brilliant - even more so because I think it was her first novel.
I did like Simon de Montfort in the Welsh trilogy, but my heart belongs to both of the Llewellyns. I've even visited the spot where Llewellyn the Last was supposed to have spent his last night, at Aberedw near Builth Wells - legend has it he slept in a cave, but there was actually a small castle there, which is a far more likely place.
Probably Leslie Weatherhead. My Dad’s copy of The Christian Agnostic showed me 40 odd years ago that conservative evangelicalism isn’t the only way. I’ve not re-read it since, and what I’d make of it now is another matter.
Probably Leslie Weatherhead. My Dad’s copy of The Christian Agnostic showed me 40 odd years ago that conservative evangelicalism isn’t the only way. I’ve not re-read it since, and what I’d make of it now is another matter.
Ironically I consider myself an Agnostic Christian. It's not quite the thing Weatherhead was talking about from what I gather.
I'll cast another vote for loving the works of Sharon Kay Penman, especially The Sunne in Splendour and the Welsh Trilogy (while I love all her work, and enjoyed the later books on the Plantagents, I've always thought those earliest books were her best, or at least most evocative, for me).
Penman would easily make any list of my top five favourite authors, but I wouldn't have thought of her for this thread (still trying to think of my answers for this one) because she doesn't quite fall into the same category of "influential" for me. She certainly influenced me as a reader and a writer, and as a lover of history. But in terms of influencing me as a person - my faith and values and the way I see the world -- though I'm primarily a fiction reader, I tend, like many in this thread, to go with non-fiction writers who are more explicitly writing about those types of questions. And yet perhaps it's the fiction I've read that's shaped me most after all?
Elinor Brent Dyer (author of the Chalet School series).
Not because she's a brilliant writer or because her books are particularly realistic, but because they introduced me to the idea of learning foreign languages at an early age, which had a profound effect on my life (influencing my choice of A levels and degree subject, for starters).
There are authors I admire more, as an adult. Many have had an effect on my beliefs and/or life choices. But you asked for the author who has had the most effect on me.
Frank Morison, author of Who moved the stone?, who enabled me to see that faith in the resurrection doesn’t mean leaving your critical faculties behind. Dorothy L Sayers for offering in literary form reflections about respectful, courteous and considerate conduct. And also (through The Mind of the Maker) some interesting food for thought on the Trinity.
@Jane R The writers who have most influenced our choices in life are not necessarily those whom we most admire in later life. I feel the two have been somewhat confused in this thread.
Frank Morison, author of Who moved the stone?, who enabled me to see that faith in the resurrection doesn’t mean leaving your critical faculties behind. Dorothy L Sayers for offering in literary form reflections about respectful, courteous and considerate conduct. And also (through The Mind of the Maker) some interesting food for thought on the Trinity.
Been forever since I read Morison. I want to read more of Sayers, particularly her non-fiction and her biography (by Downing).
Obviously, other shipmates have understood the invitation to talk about why writers have influenced them. I will try to catch up on my homework. Late.
While thinking about Kafka this morning, I realize there is a good deal of overlap with Kierkegaard, particularly regarding conformity.
Society demands and brutally enforces conformity. The rules to which one is expected to conform are irrational, sometimes secret, often impossible. The person who cannot conform, even if he desires and tries to, will be punished.
I think that unconsciously or semi-consciously the ideas of Laurence J Peter ("The Peter Principle") may have affected the way I have approached my career. I suspect I have internalised some of his ideas about "Creative Incompetence"... "the offers of promotion have now ceased" as one of his exemplars puts it...
I am always thankful for the great English teachers I had at school and being introduced to writing, particularly poetry that I would never have found on my own. I loved John Donne and have always wanted Death be not Proud for my funeral. T S Eliot was one I'd like to read more of now that I have the time to do so.
I loved Pride and Prejudice and have often reflected on the 3 types of marriages depicted and certainly thought a lot about them when I was contemplating marriage as a much younger person. I'd like to think my choice was more like Lizzie's than Lydia's!
I'm still in love with Narnia and sometimes feel that when God seems far away that I will still try to be a friend of Narnia.
In terms of contemporary fiction, I thought Jodi Picoult really got into the head of cancer Mums very well with My sister's keeper and through reading her books, I've thought about a lot of social issues, that I might have not pondered very deeply at all. I think that's opened me up to the lives of others and made me a bit more accepting.
I've also been enjoying reading Australian writer Joanna Nell who writes almost exclusively about the challenges faced by older people through her novels, and I wish I'd found her before my Mum started to have dementia and my Dad became unwell, I would have been better informed and possibly a teeny bit kinder and less frustrated. She comes from her GP perspective, and does a great job both of writing readable characters, but providing through her experience some education as well.
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, specifically The Gulag Archipelago.
Amy Tan introduced me to an inside view of Chinese-American culture and thought, and the particular challenges between generations in families close in their history to immigration. This has been valuable to me in many relationships. Her work and that of many authors of races different from mine have forced me to see the world differently.
Most of Kyoko Mori's books deal with creating an alternate family for oneself, when one's blood relationships are impossible. She has shown me that "family" does not have to fit any particular mold and that a constructed family is sometimes what one needs to survive. Banana Yoshimoto's beautiful book "Kitchen" fits here as well.
Solzhenitsyn showed strength and grace through faith during immense, intense suffering. Faith is possible, even when it is not naive. Maybe time to reread the Gulag.
C.S. Lewis, of course, who steered me back to faith at a difficult time, starting with Out of the Silent Planet, then Narnia, then Mere Christianity. Another formative book was Victor Gollancz's anthology A New Year of Grace, broadening my spiritual horizons, and, surprisingly, Arnold Toynbee's A Study of History, giving me some inkling of the interconnectedness of civilisations and the vast spread of the web of time.
Comments
I'd also like to know...
Today is the Feast of St John of the Cross and he's been a great influence on my thinking about the darkness and uncertainties of the mystical life. Very austere and bleak at times but some dazzling poetry.
The easiest way in is probably to get hold of the Collected Poems (paperback is a fairly standard paperback book price), then jump around in that. I’m probably going to mangle some titles here but to get your ‘ear’ in actually look at the non-religious stuff first - how to get on in society, indoor games near Newbury, Slough etc
Then get into the ‘heavy’ stuff on faith, doubt, death - death in Leamington, portrait of a deaf man, Christmas, in a Bath tea shop, hymn, for nineteenth century burials, Croydon…
Away from the poetry there are several collections of his radio talks. All are wonderful but the volume ‘Sweet Songs of Zion’ brings together his broadcasts on hymns and hymnodists and is always fascinating.
Then of course there’s the (massive) verse autobiography Summoned by Bells - but that’s at the back of Collected Poems anyway.
That’s where I’d start. Given I’ve got pretty much the entire output of him including all the letters etc I can provide recommendations for ‘higher Betjeman studies’ too!
Akenfield is absolutely seminal.
But theology is not all. I know it sounds pretentious but James Joyce just wowed my sense of the power of language - arguably English! - and TS Eliot and RS Thomas took me deep into the heart of a poetic God. New Zealand's Janet Frame inspired me for a long time, though it's been a while since I read her.
I don't read enough these days. So busy, so easily fatigued when I'm not.
I find a lot of Christian books quite difficult. They are either for beginners and a bit like a reading comprehension exercise, or they are very theological and my brain gets lost quite easily.
I always enjoyed reading Rachel Held Evans blog and her books. I always found her take on life and being faithful and wrestling with life's hard things to be beneficial.
Now that she is no longer with us I enjoy Nadia Bolz Weber, Jeff Chu and Sarah Bessey, all friends of Rachel. I particularly enjoy that they are going to appear magically in my inbox as well as their books being available.
Indeed. Add George Herbert and John Donne if we're allowed four. Here, RST reads like a response to a Purg post:
… There have been times
when, after long on my knees
in a cold chancel, a stone has rolled
from my mind, and I have looked
in and seen the old questions lie
folded and in a place
by themselves, like the piled
graveclothes of love’s risen body
(From The Answer)
An English teacher in high school introduced me to Ursula Le Guin. Another to Donne*.
As others have written, many new to me also. Thank you all for sharing.
---
St Isaac the Syrian: as one who gets caught up in my own sin to despair at times, his emphasis, far beyond many others, on God's Love is a needful perspective.
I will preface this by saying my reading of him is very, very limited, and my philosophical reading so little as to be non-existent, but the very little I read of Michel de Montaigne decades ago struck me: if I understood/recall correctly one of many of his teachings is the notion of our imperfections and self-reflection which was helpful to me as a perfectionist, as one at work who would be terrified of starting something lest I go down the wrong path, who would check everything 20 times, horrified at getting something wrong, etc. I'm not "cured" of this entirely, but acknowledging my failings, and that I will fail, was, is now, thank you Nick for this thread that caused me to consider this now, a good lesson.
I'll repeat Donne here. He gave voice to my (non-practising at the time) Christian beliefs and made me realise poetry, outside the Scriptures, could communicate Truths. I don't claim to be intelligent or wise, I am very simple honestly, and I was slow to this perhaps, but this served as a launching point for other poets, mystics, etc (St John of the Cross was mentioned, thanks to one-time Shipmate Nunc Dimittis who recommended him), which has given voice to my faith.
* after I expressed intense boredom in the poet we were studying for the Higher School Certificate -- final 2 secondary years here. God, I was (am?) insufferable...poor teachers. And this at a bog standard government school where for a term he stayed behind after school once a week to lead me through Donne. Off topic, but some teachers go far beyond, far beyond, what is required of them...
: https://www.longtailfilms.co.uk/LostTapes.html
We watched these yesterday evening. Just wonderful!
Growing up an elderly widow lives across the road from us. She only died a couple of years ago - well into her 90s.
One Christmas, after my mother died, and when she was going to be on her own she joined us for Christmas lunch. It started with ‘send a plate over’ became ‘I’ll just come for the food’ and ended with her staying about 8 hours and drinking the bar dry…
Anyway, at some point in the conversation it turned out that she was a relative of Laurie Lee and out poured all sorts of stories. I just wish I could remember half of them but see above comment about the bar…
Just wonderful! Thanks for sharing.
I used to belong to a historical re-enactment group. We portrayed medieval Welsh mercenaries because our Glorious Leader had read the Welsh trilogy and asked: "Why is nobody re-enacting this? It's brilliant!"
I had also read the Welsh trilogy and it was one of the reasons I joined that group, which was a big part of my life for about 10 years.
The books start with Prince Llewellyn the Great and work through to his grandson Llewellyn the Last. The last part of the last book is particularly hard to get through if you know anything about the history of the Welsh being conquered by Edward I.
Although I felt for Llewellyn the last, my hero was actually Simon de Montfort.
However, my favourite work of hers has to be
The Sunne in Splendour,
Amy Tan - nearly all
Kyoko Mori - nearly all
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, specifically The Gulag Archipelago.
I did like Simon de Montfort in the Welsh trilogy, but my heart belongs to both of the Llewellyns. I've even visited the spot where Llewellyn the Last was supposed to have spent his last night, at Aberedw near Builth Wells - legend has it he slept in a cave, but there was actually a small castle there, which is a far more likely place.
Ironically I consider myself an Agnostic Christian. It's not quite the thing Weatherhead was talking about from what I gather.
Penman would easily make any list of my top five favourite authors, but I wouldn't have thought of her for this thread (still trying to think of my answers for this one) because she doesn't quite fall into the same category of "influential" for me. She certainly influenced me as a reader and a writer, and as a lover of history. But in terms of influencing me as a person - my faith and values and the way I see the world -- though I'm primarily a fiction reader, I tend, like many in this thread, to go with non-fiction writers who are more explicitly writing about those types of questions. And yet perhaps it's the fiction I've read that's shaped me most after all?
Still pondering it.
Would it.be too far afield in this thread to ask in what way/s these authors have influenced shipmates?
Not because she's a brilliant writer or because her books are particularly realistic, but because they introduced me to the idea of learning foreign languages at an early age, which had a profound effect on my life (influencing my choice of A levels and degree subject, for starters).
There are authors I admire more, as an adult. Many have had an effect on my beliefs and/or life choices. But you asked for the author who has had the most effect on me.
Charles Williams has been helpful in my approach to certain matters both spiritual and metaphysical.
Been forever since I read Morison. I want to read more of Sayers, particularly her non-fiction and her biography (by Downing).
Obviously, other shipmates have understood the invitation to talk about why writers have influenced them. I will try to catch up on my homework. Late.
There are whole groups of people whose lives are just fine without, who may exist unaware of and entirely without, the intrusion of Whiteness.
Religion can be a tool of control.
Religion can become uncontrolable.
Power under can be far more effective and less corupting than power over.
While thinking about Kafka this morning, I realize there is a good deal of overlap with Kierkegaard, particularly regarding conformity.
Society demands and brutally enforces conformity. The rules to which one is expected to conform are irrational, sometimes secret, often impossible. The person who cannot conform, even if he desires and tries to, will be punished.
It would not, and you are not the first to ask as much in this thread.
I loved Pride and Prejudice and have often reflected on the 3 types of marriages depicted and certainly thought a lot about them when I was contemplating marriage as a much younger person. I'd like to think my choice was more like Lizzie's than Lydia's!
I'm still in love with Narnia and sometimes feel that when God seems far away that I will still try to be a friend of Narnia.
In terms of contemporary fiction, I thought Jodi Picoult really got into the head of cancer Mums very well with My sister's keeper and through reading her books, I've thought about a lot of social issues, that I might have not pondered very deeply at all. I think that's opened me up to the lives of others and made me a bit more accepting.
I've also been enjoying reading Australian writer Joanna Nell who writes almost exclusively about the challenges faced by older people through her novels, and I wish I'd found her before my Mum started to have dementia and my Dad became unwell, I would have been better informed and possibly a teeny bit kinder and less frustrated. She comes from her GP perspective, and does a great job both of writing readable characters, but providing through her experience some education as well.
: ) Thanks, @The_Riv.
My next installment, then.
Amy Tan introduced me to an inside view of Chinese-American culture and thought, and the particular challenges between generations in families close in their history to immigration. This has been valuable to me in many relationships. Her work and that of many authors of races different from mine have forced me to see the world differently.
Most of Kyoko Mori's books deal with creating an alternate family for oneself, when one's blood relationships are impossible. She has shown me that "family" does not have to fit any particular mold and that a constructed family is sometimes what one needs to survive. Banana Yoshimoto's beautiful book "Kitchen" fits here as well.
Solzhenitsyn showed strength and grace through faith during immense, intense suffering. Faith is possible, even when it is not naive. Maybe time to reread the Gulag.
My man
Probably no pun intended here, but I thought I'd comment.