Episcopal Bishop of Washington, the Right Reverend Mariann Edgar Budde B.A. DDiv - certified Badass

Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
edited January 26 in Purgatory
Other social media sites are blowing up over Bishop Budde standing up to Trump and speaking Truth to power.

For some general information about her https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariann_Budde

The full service is here: https://youtu.be/PhHE8fvf92M

The Sermon is here: https://youtu.be/xwwaEuDeqM8

What few people realize is she showed mercy to the Matthew Sheppard family. Matthew was a young LBGTQA man who was murdered in Wyoming in 1993. His family was never able to bury him for because his grave was often vandalized. Bishop Budde heard about the plight of the family and offered to intern him at the Washington National Cathedral in October 2018. In her sermon at his requiem, she said he was now safe. https://www.npr.org/2018/10/26/659835903/watch-matthew-shepard-laid-to-rest-at-national-cathedral

We have a hell thread for Mr. Trump. I wish we could put this thread in Heaven. But I will keep it in Purgatory because the reaction to Rev Budde gives me pause.

Seems like the American church has long abandoned her mission of giving comfort to those who know no comfort and making the comfortable uncomfortable. Maybe it is time we speak up more forcefully.

(ETA title in title & denominational clarification, DT)
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Comments

  • God bless her. ❤️❤️❤️
  • The problem with a thread like this (I wholeheartedly concur with the OP) is that, in this forum, you're preaching to the choir. Or perhaps not? Let's see.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    I suspect you're right, on a Christian discussion forum it's difficult to disagree with someone who so clearly expressed the words of Christ in her homily. Though given the propensity of Christ to address the Pharisees as "white washed tombs" and to make a whip to drive out those who were focussed on making money from the poor rather than worship of God I'm not sure Jesus would have made the same point in such a polite and respectful manner.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    My thoughts exactly on her sermon at the time Alan. Not that I'd have wished that she had attacked Trump, it wouldn't have gone well at all. She couldn't have attacked him on the same basis; the ruling classes are utterly different. Nobody could gainsay Jesus. Trump would have doubled down as never before. On the spot.
  • Where's Gordon Cheng when you need him?
  • Where's Gordon Cheng when you need him?

    "Need" and "Gordon Cheng" do not sit comfortably together in the same sentence.
  • She's the first hero of the 47th Age.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Where's Gordon Cheng when you need him?

    "Need" and "Gordon Cheng" do not sit comfortably together in the same sentence.

    Like the proverbial hole in the head….

  • Well someone has to fib that Trump is wonderful and +Mariann is wicked, to make a go of the thread. Who else, if not Gordo?
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    She nailed her colours to the mast, re Trump. But with a brave and gentle hammer.

    Brave and gentle words have an unpredictable future, as in this case. But all power needs to have truth spoken to it. That’s risky if you are also in the public eye to some extent and have a responsible public office.

    I think she is both courageous and humble. As a lifelong nonconformist I recognise her Episcopalian nonconformity to diplomatic expectations.
  • Some admin please delete excess post please
  • North East QuineNorth East Quine Purgatory Host
    Done.

    North East Quine, Purgatory host
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    mousethief wrote: »
    She's the first hero of the 47th Age.

    Yes.

    Light in dark times.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    I wait to see if Trump tries to have her ;investigated'.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    He’s vengeful and doesn’t forget or forgive perceived slights. I wouldn’t be surprised to see something nasty. Social media nastiness is already going on but he may be looking for more.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Barnabas62 wrote: »
    He’s vengeful and doesn’t forget or forgive perceived slights.

    Oh he does forget if people do obeisance. Witness Vance, and numerous other Republicans that were briefly honest about him then were in his good graces once they bent the knee.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Well, I’m going to try to get hold of her book “How we learn to be brave”. There isn’t much bravery around these days, particularly when it comes to speaking the truth to power. Keep your head down and wait for better times” is a much more common, more “ prudent” attitude.
  • Please could the thread title be altered to Bishop Mariann Budde?
    :wink:
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Barnabas62 wrote: »
    Well, I’m going to try to get hold of her book “How we learn to be brave”. There isn’t much bravery around these days, particularly when it comes to speaking the truth to power. Keep your head down and wait for better times” is a much more common, more “ prudent” attitude.
    In following the call to love our neighbour I'm not sure "prudent" has much of a say.

    Remember when asked to say who is our neighbour we need to love Jesus told a story about a man beset by robbers on a lonely road. Clearly this was a dangerous place, the possibly dead body of the man by the road side was there to emphasise this. The prudent action would be to hurry on and get out of the area as soon as possible. Stopping, taking time to care for the victim and then travelling slowly (because a half dead man on a donkey isn't going to be in a position to hold tight as they move as fast as possible) isn't prudent. It is, however, what love of neighbours looks like. Loving others isn't a safe thing to do.
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    Barnabas62 wrote: »
    Well, I’m going to try to get hold of her book “How we learn to be brave”. There isn’t much bravery around these days, particularly when it comes to speaking the truth to power. Keep your head down and wait for better times” is a much more common, more “ prudent” attitude.

    I've already tried - it's sold out!

    I will try again.
  • Please could the thread title be altered to Bishop Mariann Budde?
    :wink:

    Thanks!
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Please could the thread title be altered to Bishop Mariann Budde?
    :wink:

    I chose the title Rev because she is representing not only the clergy of her diocese, but also what the clergy of all denominations, even other faiths, should be doing--standing up to the Man and speaking to his crime against humanity.

    @Martin54 Did the bishop really attack Trump? Sounded to me like she just issued a prayer for mercy, an appeal for humanity. I did not hear her attacking him for his crimes of which he as been convicted, or his alleged incitement of the January 6th riot or his alleged adulterous affairs. Did you?
  • Barnabas62 wrote: »
    She nailed her colours to the mast, re Trump. But with a brave and gentle hammer.

    Brave and gentle words have an unpredictable future, as in this case. But all power needs to have truth spoken to it. That’s risky if you are also in the public eye to some extent and have a responsible public office.

    I think she is both courageous and humble. As a lifelong nonconformist I recognise her Episcopalian nonconformity to diplomatic expectations.

    Ahem ... as the estimable @Nick Tamen rightly reminded me recently, the term 'non-conformist' doesn't really have any traction outside England and Wales.

    The US Episcopalian Church is not a national church in the way the Church of England is in England or the Church in Wales is in Wales.

    The term 'non-conformist' specifically refers to those 'Dissenters' who did not 'conform' to the Act of Uniformity during the reign of Charles II.

    It doesn't apply to the US at all. The post-Independence Episcopalians in the former colonies tended to look to the Scottish Episcopalian Church, which wasn't 'Established' rather than the Church of England which was and is. They are still part of the worldwide Anglican Communion of course.

    Charles Wesley wasn't a 'non-conformist' when he wrote 'Love Divine' or any of his other hymns - as cited on another thread. Both he and John remained within the Church of England.

    I don't know what term we should use in a US context for what we'd call 'Free Churches' or 'non-conformist churches' here. From what other Shipmates have said, it's not a term in common use in Scotland and Northern Ireland let alone in other Anglophone countries worldwide.

    But yes, as Washington Cathedral is the US 'national' cathedral, there is something about this being a 'speaking truth to power' thing on a national stage, but not in quite the same way as if it'd happened in Westminster Abbey or Canterbury Cathedral.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Boogie

    Apparently it’s available for Kindle from the amazon.com website but not from the amazon.co.uk. website which I normally use. But yes, it’s become a best seller. Which I’m pretty pleased about.

    Alan Cresswell

    Well, she was speaking to a self-declared Christian, so I guess she was subject to “correct gently” (Galatians 6:1, 2 Timothy 2:24-6).
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Well, I am a proud descendant of the non-conformist tradition since some of my foreparents were Puritans.

    Rev. Budde took on the role of a nonconformist in that she went against the heresies of the MAGA people. I would think if Charles II had been in the front pew listening to her, she would have had a few words for him too. The fact that she is a woman would have made her a non-conformist in Charles' day.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Sorry, I missed the edit window. I was going to add this little ditty about Charles II.

    We have a pretty, witty king,
    Whose word no man relies on,
    He never said a foolish thing,
    And never did a wise one.

    Also applies to Mr, Trump, don't you think?
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Sorry, I missed the edit window. I was going to add this little ditty about Charles II.

    We have a pretty, witty king,
    Whose word no man relies on,
    He never said a foolish thing,
    And never did a wise one.

    Also applies to Mr, Trump, don't you think?

    Charles II was apparently amused by this, and observed that his words were his own, but his actions were those of his ministers...

    No, I don't think it applies to Trump, who says many foolish things.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Gamaliel

    Fair enough. I think nonconformism is first of all an attitude of mind, emphasising personal conscience, a passion for fairness and justice and a willingness to dissent from governing authorities who fall short of being fair.

    But I accept the need to define terms when using the word. I’m a child of the old Dissenters.

    And I’m sure Bishop Mariann chose to dissent from what was expected diplomatically on that occasion. She was right to do so, in my opinion. So I see, in my terms, the nonconformist attitude of mind and personal conscience at work. Delighted to do so!
  • Some anachronisms going on there ...

    Most Puritans were Anglicans. The Pilgrim Fathers were 'separatists' or 'Independents'.
    Sure, those that went to what became the colonies tended to come from the more radical independent groups, but they were a minorty within a minority.

    Rev Budde wouldn't have held any kind of ecclesial office in any of the 'nonconformist sects' at the time of King Charles II as none of them had female ministers. You may have had some women exercising some kind of 'prophetic' or spoken-ministry role in some of the wilder and woolier groups that emerged during the chaos of the Civil Wars and the Commonwealth period, but the first significant group to have female preachers was the Primitive Methodists in the 19th century, followed by the Baptists.

    I recognise that you are using the term 'nonconformist' in a looser sense, but as an ecclesial position it only makes sense in a context where there is a national church.

    You can't project your current US conditions back into 17th century England, although the 'seeds' were certainly there. I've often said that the American War of Independence (Revolutionary War to you guys) was Round 2 of our 17th century Civil Wars. Some would argue that the US Civil War was Round 3 ...

    I wouldn't go that far.
  • It's hardly fair to single out Gordon Cheng as he is not here to answer for himself, but I'll do so anyway ... ;)

    As an aside, I think Cheng single-handedly cured me of any residual inclination I may have had towards a certain form of neo-Calvinist Reformed Protestantism. Whereas both @Jengie Jon and @Nick Tamen have between them helped me retain my respect for the broader Reformed tradition, even though I've moved elsewhere.

    Back to Rev Budde ... yes, I felt her comments were timely, apposite, measured and necessary. 'Would that all the Lord's people were prophets.'

    Would that some of the heirarchs within my own Church do likewise in their particular settings.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Sure.

    Ive gone back to the roots of the word. What made the original nonconformists tick?

    I’m also accepting that in the UK, as a word, it is too mixed up with church history in the UK, and in the USA as well, to be used with clarity to represent what I meant.

    Perhaps we can agree that she chose to speak the truth to power, rather than conforming to expectations of what was normal on this occasion? I think she demonstrated some of the bravery she’s written about.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    You may have had some women exercising some kind of 'prophetic' or spoken-ministry role in some of the wilder and woolier groups that emerged during the chaos of the Civil Wars and the Commonwealth period.

    And around New England, they would have been called witches in the 17th century. I am certain that title crossed Mr. Trump's mind shortly after Rev Budde finished her homily, if not during.
  • Though given the propensity of Christ to address the Pharisees as "white washed tombs" and to make a whip to drive out those who were focussed on making money from the poor rather than worship of God I'm not sure Jesus would have made the same point in such a polite and respectful manner.
    I suspect that’s the wrong comparison, though. The Pharisees were the people who arguably should have been most receptive to what Jesus was teaching. And calling the Pharisees “white washed tombs” probably wasn’t his opening salvo.

    I think this is more akin to one of the prophets addressing a king who ignores the law.

    Barnabas62 wrote: »
    She nailed her colours to the mast, re Trump. But with a brave and gentle hammer.

    Brave and gentle words have an unpredictable future, as in this case. But all power needs to have truth spoken to it. That’s risky if you are also in the public eye to some extent and have a responsible public office.

    I think she is both courageous and humble. As a lifelong nonconformist I recognise her Episcopalian nonconformity to diplomatic expectations.

    Ahem ... as the estimable @Nick Tamen rightly reminded me recently, the term 'non-conformist' doesn't really have any traction outside England and Wales.

    The US Episcopalian Church is not a national church in the way the Church of England is in England or the Church in Wales is in Wales.
    I’m afraid I may repay your compliment with another bit of pedantry. It is the Episcopal Church, not the Episcopalian Church. Episcopalian is a noun, meaning a member or adherent of the Episcopal Church. Episcopal is the adjective,

    I’ll try to rein myself in now. :lol:

    But yes, as Washington Cathedral is the US 'national' cathedral, there is something about this being a 'speaking truth to power' thing on a national stage, but not in quite the same way as if it'd happened in Westminster Abbey or Canterbury Cathedral.
    Trivia tidbit: The pulpit from which Bishop Budde preached is carved from stone left over from repairs to the Bell Harry Tower of Canterbury Cathedral, and it is known as the Canterbury Pulpit. It is the pulpit from which the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., preached his last sermon, just days before he was assasinated.
    Meanwhile, The Bitter Southerner online magazine has brought back tee-shirts they first offered in 2018, bearing that old Southern exclamation “Have Mercy.”


  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Please could the thread title be altered to Bishop Mariann Budde?
    :wink:

    I chose the title Rev because she is representing not only the clergy of her diocese, but also what the clergy of all denominations, even other faiths, should be doing--standing up to the Man and speaking to his crime against humanity.

    @Martin54 Did the bishop really attack Trump? Sounded to me like she just issued a prayer for mercy, an appeal for humanity. I did not hear her attacking him for his crimes of which he as been convicted, or his alleged incitement of the January 6th riot or his alleged adulterous affairs. Did you?

    No she didn't. No I didn't. He has won the race to the bottom riding on the backs of the mob. All the good can do is truly stand mutely with the oppressed. But the good are spread too thin. The evil is spread too thick. It's not like the 20 year Civil Rights campaign up to '65. She has painted a target on her back for the mob. God help her. Because no one else will. She literally needs to start wearing a bullet proof vest. And even then.
  • Your doom-laden prognostications are, alas, often right - but I hope that, in this case, you are wrong.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    All the good can do is truly stand mutely with the oppressed

    Rev. Budde certainly did not stand mutely with the oppressed.
    But the good are spread too thin.

    Remember 2/3 of the American electorate did not vote for Trump. Of the ones that did vote, nearly half went for Harris or some other candidate (they are the good guys). 22 state attorney generals (again, nearly half) have already gone to court on behalf of the oppressed.
    She has painted a target on her back for the mob. God help her. Because no one else will.

    True, she has a target on her back, but many leaders of other faith groups have spoken up on her behalf. I am sure the local synods of my particular denomination will pass resolutions supporting her and/or her position. On FB there are several memes that are saying "I stand with her."

    To me, she is speaking for at least half of the American population.

    And it is very much like the American civil rights struggle of the mid 20s. It is a continuation of that struggle, in my book.

  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Though given the propensity of Christ to address the Pharisees as "white washed tombs" and to make a whip to drive out those who were focussed on making money from the poor rather than worship of God I'm not sure Jesus would have made the same point in such a polite and respectful manner.
    I suspect that’s the wrong comparison, though. The Pharisees were the people who arguably should have been most receptive to what Jesus was teaching. And calling the Pharisees “white washed tombs” probably wasn’t his opening salvo.

    I think this is more akin to one of the prophets addressing a king who ignores the law
    Well, she was certainly taking on the role of prophet - "speaking the truth to power" is the primary role of prophet. I think that anyone who takes to the pulpit is taking on the role of prophet, proclaiming the message of God for that congregation to both convict of sin and call to repentance and offer the hope of God to those without earthly hope. Her homily did that - proclaiming to all those who need mercy that in Christ and the Church they can find mercy and support, and convicting those who claim the support of God for their lack of love and mercy to their neighbours.

    I also think that Jesus was doing the same in his interactions with the Pharisees, and others of power in his time. Admittedly the Pharisees would have been more the equivalent of church leaders who support Trump, the equivalent of Trump and his political support would be King Herod and the Herodians and they don't seem to be that often the targets of Jesus' teaching (John the Baptist, on the other hand, had quite a lot of truth to tell Herod).
  • (John the Baptist, on the other hand, had quite a lot of truth to tell Herod).
    Indeed!


  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    Now this is a thread title I can get down with!!!
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Remember 2/3 of the American electorate did not vote for Trump.

    Neither did 2/3 of the American electorate vote against Trump.
  • MsBoyerMsBoyer Shipmate Posts: 1
    Bishop Budde's sermon was heartening and showed us what courage looks like at this time. I wrote her a thank you letter (on paper, with a stamp). We're going to need A Lot More Of This in the days/ years to come.
  • As I watched the sermon, I could not help but think of Jean-Paul Lorens' painting of Saint John Chrysostom lecturing the Empress Eudoxia. Surely the Bishop of Washington is simply following the apostolic tradition of speaking clearly to authorities of the church's teaching?

    If Mr Trump is not accustomed to this, then perhaps he simply needs to attend church more often, although staff may want to brief him on the Magnificat at vespers.

    I second @MsBoyer 's wish to send a letter of support. Public people get negative mail all the time, and positive responses go a way toward stregthening and encouraging them (postage is now $1.75 to the US).
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    Admirable as it may be, I don't think that a sermon like Budde's preached to this Administration every day of its tenure would move them in the slightest.
  • HedgehogHedgehog Shipmate
    Eirenist wrote: »
    I wait to see if Trump tries to have her ;investigated'.

    One member of the House of Representatives has stated that he wants her to be deported. As she was born in New Jersey, I am vague as to WHERE he thinks she should be deported. He is a Representative from Georgia, the same State that gave us the clueless Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene. Must be something in the water.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Remember 2/3 of the American electorate did not vote for Trump.

    Neither did 2/3 of the American electorate vote against Trump.

    Not right. 1/3 of the electorate did vote against Trump. The other third did not vote at all. Who can say why they did not vote, but whatever it was, they remain against Trump in the large scale of things.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Remember 2/3 of the American electorate did not vote for Trump.

    Neither did 2/3 of the American electorate vote against Trump.
    Not right. 1/3 of the electorate did vote against Trump. The other third did not vote at all.
    Yes, it is right. If they did not vote at all, they did not vote against Trump. They did not against or for anyone.


  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Just think .... a bishop preaching the gospel in her own cathedral and the bible toting Trumpists are furious.
  • Is Outrage!
    :grimace:

    But the Trumpian churches have their own version of the gospel...
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Is Outrage!
    :grimace:

    But the Trumpian churches have their own version of the gospel...

    I would call them heresies; but, who am I? I am certainly not a convening authority by any means.
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    MsBoyer wrote: »
    Bishop Budde's sermon was heartening and showed us what courage looks like at this time. I wrote her a thank you letter (on paper, with a stamp). We're going to need A Lot More Of This in the days/ years to come.

    Well done. I will do the same.
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