Authoritarians and Higher Education.

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  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Historically most Americans had no access to higher education. Until the mid-20th century, a lot of people didn't even finish high school (one of my grandfathers had a second-grade education -- he was needed on the family farm). Today, less than 40% of the population over 25 has a college degree (Census bureau). It makes sense to me that people would have mixed feelings about something that confers prestige (and wealth -- educational attainment is heavily tied to earnings) that is not necessarily available to them.

    I'm concerned about Harvard on general principle and because of the real value of the research done there. I'm not concerned about Harvard students overall, though -- these are people who will for the most part be okay. I'm concerned about the cumulative effect of Trumpian policies and funding cuts on people like the students two of my friends teach at local community colleges -- some of whom make frequent use of the school food banks and couch-surf or live in their cars.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    Nick T wrote: The University of Georgia was chartered in 1785, but didn’t began admitting students until 1801.

    My first alma mater has similar trajectory. I graduated with my BA in 1985. Because my school at Georgia both claimed this to be their bicentennial yea, our Encaenia address was given by the President of Georgia.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Regards, the number of Americans having college degrees--BA/S or higher. If 40% of Americans are college graduates, that is pretty high. I think the UK average is around 33%. I and open to correction on that one. And I would dare say it varies widely among all countries.

    I do think one of the problems is what we teach in primary and secondary education. There are so many subjects teachers in the lower grades have to be sensitive about. Parents can opt there kids out of sex education--usually a normal part of health education. SCOTUS recently took on a case where some parents are asking if they can opt out of an integrated reading program since some of the books deal with same sex relationships. States are telling educators they cannot mention DEI. One teacher in Boise was told she had to remove a banner showing different colors of hands with the saying: All Are Welcomed Here. (My nephew's wife has a similar banner in her school office and she would rather be fired than take it down.) Science subjects can be touchy too.

    And, then the first thing universities have to do is provide remedial education courses so everyone is prepared to have their minds blown as they delve into higher education.

    There is the classic routine where a college student returns home and has to deal with the lack of knowledge on the part of parents. Happened with my kids, and I think I am fairly well educated.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Regards, the number of Americans having college degrees--BA/S or higher. If 40% of Americans are college graduates, that is pretty high.

    Maybe, but it means 60% of Americans don't have college degrees and are shut out of all the privileges a college education can afford. I could see a lot of such folks thinking there's no reason for them to care about what happens to Harvard. It's only partly a caricature that people with Harvard degrees don't care about them.

    As an illustration: I lost count of the number of college-educated people I saw refer to the covid shutdown period as something like "the time when we all worked from home and made sourdough bread" with no reference to the many people who went to work in grocery stores every day.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Ruth wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Regards, the number of Americans having college degrees--BA/S or higher. If 40% of Americans are college graduates, that is pretty high.

    Maybe, but it means 60% of Americans don't have college degrees and are shut out of all the privileges a college education can afford. I could see a lot of such folks thinking there's no reason for them to care about what happens to Harvard. It's only partly a caricature that people with Harvard degrees don't care about them.

    As an illustration: I lost count of the number of college-educated people I saw refer to the covid shutdown period as something like "the time when we all worked from home and made sourdough bread" with no reference to the many people who went to work in grocery stores every day.

    Well, Mrs Gramps still worked at the university library at that time. She tried to stay home, but that lasted for about a month. She felt she had to go back to handle all the library loan requests that were backing up. The others worked from home. She was alone for the first year, but by the second year several other staff members came into the library.

    Me? I laid low for about a year because of possible health issues. Deal of it is, a number of people around me got it, but I never did until this past winter when I got the omicron variety.

    BTW, I grew up on real sour dough breads. I remember the starter in the refrigerator.

  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Anti intellectualism in America is not new. I felt pressure from American culture from an early age. The 80s were so full of stupid frat movies, frat style TV commercials, sitcoms, one every week it seemed after Animal House.

    Well, the movie Animal House had three writers: Chris Miller, Doug Kenney, and Harold Ramis, the first two alumni of early-era National Lampoon and both specializing in college-themed humour, much of it relying, for its maximum effect, on the reader having experienced at least undergraduate life. Sample joke: a satirical comic-book story featuring a first-year student who gets depressed about, among other things, a low mark on his paper entitled PARANOID BACHELOR GERMAN PHILOSOPHERS. Obviously, the better-educated readers were expected to congratulate themselves on getting the reference to Nietzsche.

    In the movie, I think this style is represented most obviously by Donald Sutherland as the disillusioned thirtysomething literature prof, desperately trying to interest his bored students in a discussion, complete with biblical props, about Satan being the most interesting character in Paradise Lost.

    I speculate(though don't know for sure) that the more well-known stuff from the film, aka the abject pandering to macho-party culture, was infused into the script by Ramis, who had gotten to Hollywood via stints at Playboy and Second City. "What's this? A zit." etc.

    As for the TV shows, the only one I ever saw was Delta House, part of the Animal House franchise, but apparently the other two networks had frat sitcoms as well, with all three shows gone after one season. I will read into the record that The Paper Chase, which certainly did not denigrate academic and intellectual pursuits, lasted three, albeit with a hiatus of a few years and a switch in networks.

    And I'd actually trace the anti-intellectual trend of that era back before Animal House, to Welcome Back Kotter, which openly celebrated academic failure and classroom disruption. In fairness, my understanding is that the show grew out of stand-up comedy routines, which probably weren't meant as any deep commentary on education.

    I do agree the genre has a pernicious tendency toward populist pandering, and for me the nadir is that scene in Back To School, where mature-student Rodney Dangerfield is portrayed as heckling his uptight business-prof(stereotypically British, natch) about how a real-world businessman has to use bribery and mafia kickbacks to run their operations. Of course the students all find Dangerfield the more informative lecturer and start writing down what he says(*).

    (Whereas anyone who has gone to university knows that mature students who sign up for undergraduate classes and spout off their folksy wisdom are generally despised by their more "age-appropriate" classmates.)

    (*) Interesting to see Dangerfield playing a boisterously confident individual in that film. I think he also did in so in Caddyshack, and later arguably a nightmarish view of the persona in Natural Born Killers. Watch at your own risk.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Ruth wrote: »
    As an illustration: I lost count of the number of college-educated people I saw refer to the covid shutdown period as something like "the time when we all worked from home and made sourdough bread" with no reference to the many people who went to work in grocery stores every day.

    Early in the pandemic, I saw a political cartoon intended to counsel a moderate approach to the crisis, using a Three Bears lift...

    OVERREACTING DADDY BEAR: OMG! We're all gonna die if we breathe the same air!

    IRRESPONSIBLE MOMMY BEAR SITTING IN PUB SMOKING: I need to get out of the house sometimes, and it's just a little flu.

    RIGHT-APPROACH BABY BEAR HOLDING TV REMOTE: Let's stay in and watch Netflix!

    Apart from the questionable ethics of a political commentator giving free advertising to a private-sector corporation, the cartoon was making quite a few assumptions about how close to universally readers would relate to the notion of automatic access to Netflix.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited May 8
    stetson wrote: »
    Anti intellectualism in America is not new. I felt pressure from American culture from an early age. The 80s were so full of stupid frat movies, frat style TV commercials, sitcoms, one every week it seemed after Animal House.

    Well, the movie Animal House had three writers: Chris Miller, Doug Kenney, and Harold Ramis, the first two alumni of early-era National Lampoon and both specializing in college-themed humour, much of it relying, for its maximum effect, on the reader having experienced at least undergraduate life. . . .

    I speculate(though don't know for sure) that the more well-known stuff from the film, aka the abject pandering to macho-party culture, was infused into the script by Ramis, who had gotten to Hollywood via stints at Playboy and Second City. "What's this? A zit." etc.
    I’d say that owes as much to Chris Miller as anyone.

    Miller went to Dartmouth, where he was a member of Alpha Delta Phi. (And where his fraternity nickname was “Pinto.”) Animal House was based on two of his “Tales of the Adelphian Lodge,” which had been published in National Lampoon in the mids-70s: “The Night of the Seven Fires” and “Pinto’s First Lay.” (You can read “Pinto’s First Lay” here.) I think it’s safe to say those two stories are as lewd and perverted—Miller has said he considers being calledperverted “a compliment”—as anything in the movie.

    As for macho-party culture, this appears early in “The Night of the Seven Fires”:
    There was much that was legendary about the Adelphian Lodge. For one thing, it was the only house among Dartmouth's twenty-four to which the freshman class each year at the nearby girls' schools were actually warned not to go. On the other hand, when a party weekend came along, everyone who was anyone had at least to make an appearance at the Adelphian, which was to Dartmouth social life what the Yankees had been to the American League pennant for the last fifteen years. The principles for which the Adelphian Lodge stood, and which had brought about its fame, were stated in their Credo, a large, hand-lettered sign that hung behind the bar: Sickness is health, blackness is truth, drinking is strength. And if there was a single event which embodied the entire Adelphian zeitgeist, it was the Night of the Seven Fires.


    All that said, I wouldn’t point to Animal House as an example of American anti-intellectualism. It’s anti-establishment, yes. But as someone whose college experience was in some ways shaped by Animal House (I started college the year after it came out), I never picked up on anyone thinking it was anti-intellectual.

    broke link because not safe for work - la vie en rouge, Purgatory host

  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited May 8
    Jesus Crimminy! Someone who knows more about early-70s Lampoon than I do. I pronounce myself both humbled and delighted.

    Anyway, yes, well spotted. And, to back you up, I'll also mention that another of the more debauched scenes in Animal House, Sutherland toking up with his students and seducing the girl, seems at least partly a re-write of Puff The Magic Dragon, also from Lampoon, and I'm pretty sure also by Miller. Only in the comic version, the provider of the weed is a prep-school dropout, who seems really cool to the impressionable initiates, but is subtly hinted to be a layabout loser, eg. dirty dishes piled in the sink, want-ads taped to the fridge. I thought that was actually a more realistic scenario than a prof in 1962 giving weed to his students.

    I can't access Pinto's First Lay. I do remember a Lampoon comic about a young guy living in a frat, and how the older guys would try to impress him with stories about their sexual prowess, but everyone spends a suspicious amount of time with girlie mags in the washroom. A party scene includes a segue into a topical joke about drugs used for interrogation in the Korean War.

    I think the Miller piece I remember best is Beat The Meatles, in which Miller portrays himself as interviewing The Fab Four about their excretory and masturbatory habits. In the memorial issue to Kenney, someone quoted Kenney to the effect that Miller was the magazine's go-to guy for "sexy" humour.

    As for the movie being anti-intellectual vs. anti-establishment, I think age might be factor there. I was still in elementary when it came out, early middle-school when I saw it on TV, and stuff like the boys stealing the wrong exams and scoring a 0.1% average seemed like the kinda thing underachieving early-adolescents would consider cool. But most university students are probably beyond the point of finding that kind of behaviour worthy of emulation.

    FWIW, I find the stuff in the movie about Dean Wormer pretty contrived, and he actually seems more like some kid's image of a mean high-school principal than anyone who'd be a post-secondary academic in that era.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    ...another of the more debauched scenes in Animal House, Sutherland toking up with his students and seducing the girl, seems at least partly a re-write of Puff The Magic Dragon, also from Lampoon, and I'm pretty sure also by Miller.

    Just looked it up. Puff The Magic Dragon was by Kenney, and I'm guessing the one about the depressed undergrad was as well, because they were both done as comic books.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited May 8
    @stetson, I’m seriously doubt I know more about the early 70s Lampoon than you do. My knowledge is mostly limited to things Animal House-related. And if that’s something that interests you, I highly recommend Chris Miller’s 2007 book The Real Animal House. (It’s described on the cover as “A Mostly Lucid Memoir” and “The Awesomely Depraved Saga of the Fraternity That Inspired the Movie.”)

    And sorry you can’t access “Pinto’s First Lay.” (The link is actually to a pdf of the entire Sept. 1975 “Back to College” issue of National Lampoon.) Maybe it’s a location thing. FWIW, the story is about Pinto’s trip to a brothel.

    stetson wrote: »
    FWIW, I find the stuff in the movie about Dean Wormer pretty contrived, and he actually seems more like some kid's image of a mean high-school principal than anyone who'd be a post-secondary academic in that era.
    I think the character of Dean Wormer is an example of the anti-establishment side of AH. He is the establishment, and he’s portrayed as a self-important buffoon.

    As for stealing the exams and the lowest grade point average in Faber history, I don’t think it ever occurred to us that that should be seen as something to emulate. It was just something to laugh at, and something that set up having the toga party. (And there were lots of those on college campuses after AH came out.)

  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Purgatory Host, Circus Host
    Hostly beret on

    @Nick Tamen I have broken your link in this post because it is not safe for work.

    If you are linking to material that is not worksafe, please make sure it is two clicks away and people know what they are clicking on.

    Hostly beret off

    la vie en rouge, Purgatory host
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited May 8
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    @stetson, I’m seriously doubt I know more about the early 70s Lampoon than you do. My knowledge is mostly limited to things Animal House-related. And if that’s something that interests you, I highly recommend Chris Miller’s 2007 book The Real Animal House. (It’s described on the cover as “A Mostly Lucid Memoir” and “The Awesomely Depraved Saga of the Fraternity That Inspired the Movie.”)

    Ah, so you're sorta the opposite of me: I was pretty heavy into the magazine(both then-current and back issues), but take-it-or-leave-it on Animal House. Since the early 80s, I think I've only re-watched it once, about 10 years ago on YouTube.

    I did have a print-out of Sutherland standing in front of "Satan" on the blackboard with a hangdog expression on his face, posted up on my classroom wall. Liked the shot.

    I don’t think it ever occurred to us that that should be seen as something to emulate. It was just something to laugh at...

    Well, again, I think age-differences might be a factor there. In middle school, I had a friend who sat next to me in science class, and we generally hated school and our teachers, and would sorta bond over getting low marks(we actually talked about the test scenes in AH after it showed on TV). By contrast, students at university more-or-less wanna be there, and would see a 0.1% average as something they'd desperately wanna avoid.

    and something that set up having the toga party. (And there were lots of those on college campuses after AH came out.)

    I definitely remember that. Even my teenaged comrades at an arts retreat had a toga party(not particularly debauched, I think wearing a toga at parties was just a general idea in circulation, thanks to the movie).
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Hostly beret on

    @Nick Tamen I have broken your link in this post because it is not safe for work.

    If you are linking to material that is not worksafe, please make sure it is two clicks away and people know what they are clicking on.

    Hostly beret off

    la vie en rouge, Purgatory host
    My apologies! It was a failure on my part not to think about that.


  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    edited May 10
    Following the tangential discussion on climate change I pondered on the argument that one finding might not be conclusive. Sometimes it can be. Lavoisier’s experimental finding that burning metals gained weight was the death of the phlogiston theory since it contradicted that theory.

    The Carbon 14 finding strikes me similarly as conclusive evidence. Findings may still diverge, I guess, on the percentage extent to which the increase in carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is caused by human activity rather than natural causes, but the evidence is conclusive that the percentage is significantly greater than zero. That is an undeniable fact.

    Advances in scientific understanding always involve this dimension of definitive disproving. The mind can no longer be open to the phlogiston theory, or that the sun revolves around the Earth, or the Earth is flat.

    I’m a strong believer in open-mindedness but on some issues, you just have to close that openness.

    And I’m not open minded about the wrongness of pressurising academic institutions to toe the political or philosophical lines peddled by any government.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    The Trumpian administration fascists are going after Harvard once again. The homeland security people have informed Harvard they are no longer authorized to accept international students effective immediately. This means that any international student currently enrolled at Harvard will need to transfer out of the institution. Roughly 7,000 students are impacted. It is around 27% of the student body. Considering how late it is in the academic year, international students will have a tough time being accepted at another institution and will likely be forced to go home.

    The administration claims Harvard fosters antisemitism and violence on campus. They also claim it supports the Chinese Communist Party.

    Of course, Harvard, is suing the administration.
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