UK Supreme Court Decision on Meaning of Sex & Gender in the 2010 Equalities Act

This discussion was created from comments split from: UK officially fucks Trans kids over.
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  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Ah, shit. The Supreme Court just endorsed a TERFy interpretation of the Equality Act 2010, saying sex is "biological" (whatever the fuck theu mean by that). The British state has now been fully captured by TERFdom.
  • TubbsTubbs Admin Emeritus, Epiphanies Host
    Oh.

    The Supreme Court ruling states that definition of woman in Equality Act refers to 'biological women' .

    Scrolling further down the Guardian's coverage, I found that the ruling does not diminish transgender women’s protections against direct discrimination.

    In their judgment, Lord Reed, Lord Hodge, Lady Rose and Lady Simler said:

    A man who identifies as a woman who is treated less favourably because of the protected characteristic of gender reassignment will be able to claim on that basis.

    A man who identifies as a woman who is treated less favourably not because of being trans (the protected characteristic of gender reassignment) but because of being perceived as being a woman will be able to claim for direct sex discrimination on that basis.

    This does not entail any practical disadvantage and there is no discordance (as the Scottish ministers appear to suggest) between the individual’s position in society and the ability to claim on this basis.

    A certificated sex reading of the EA 2010 is not necessary here, and the approach applies equally whether or not the claimant has a gender recognition certificate.


    I'm not convinced by the statement that defining women differently in one piece of legislation doesn't undermine the protections given in another piece. OTH, it is going to make a lot of money for lawyers and creates another rod to beat trans women with.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited April 16
    They appear not to have given much consideration to either people who are intersex, or how we accommodate trans people in hospitals and other facilities without outing them without their consent to others sharing the same spaces. (E.g. this would appear to mean if you admit a trans woman to a female ward, you would need to put up signage stating it’s now a mixed sex ward and label male and female lounges and vice versa.)

    They are also haven’t explained why they think we ever need single sex facilities that specifically exclude trans men, trans women or non-binary people.
  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    edited April 16
    Oh that's bad - it generally takes a day or so for the very few (and very shoestring and very outgunned) trans news outlets to write something and I'll post links when I see things but it looks bad.


    Jolyon Maugham has some legal comment here on Bluesky

    https://bsky.app/profile/jolyonmaugham.bsky.social/post/3lmw7wy3pa22l
    Having excluded all trans people from proceedings before it, the Supreme Court decides in favour of For Some Women Scotland
    ...
    The Supreme Court accepted the submissions of the GC orgs before it that bringing trans people with a GRC within the definition of man or women would create absurdities. But it refused to hear from anyone pointing out the absurdities of excluding them - that's why trans representation matters

    Laura Pollock quotes Ellie Gomersall who is own voice in The National

    Supreme Court ruling 'undermines vital human rights', says activist



    I think we're seeing real institutional capture with people with bigoted views at the top of many of our key institutions and consequent dysfunction on human rights decisions and loss of rights for trans people.
  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    edited April 16
    But also here a note of caution from Jess O'Thomson

    https://bsky.app/profile/jessothomson.co.uk/post/3lmvx2eb4bs2e
    Please wait for actual analysis from friendly sources to come out before believing whatever propaganda gets spread about this case.
    ...
    It is a deliberate strategy of the anti-trans movement to mislead people about what the law and cases actually say, in order to further their agenda

    Statement by Translucent

    Translucent is disappointed with today’s Supreme Court judgement. However we need to consider the judgement carefully before responding fully.

    Translucent is aware that many in the trans community will be extremely worried by this decision and its implications.


    We would like to reassure them that they are still protected from discrimination, victimisation and harassment because of their protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

    If a trans community member experiences discrimination or harassment, we suggest they promptly seek legal support, whether from a local solicitor, free advice centre, or a family solicitor and consider what legal actions they can take to protect themselves and others.

    It is vital to remain calm whilst our legal teams evaluate the consequences of this decision and consider whether further action may be taken in the European Court of Human Rights to reinstate any rights we may have lost.
  • Jane RJane R Shipmate
    edited April 16
    IANAL but surely the intent of the ruling is clear, however much weaselling around they do to try and obscure it. The mere fact that they refer to trans women as 'men who identify as women' says it all.

    And intersex and non-binary people apparently don't exist.

    🤬😭
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    edited April 16
    My daughter is shattered. Don’t blame her. The UK Supreme Court seems to be at odds with EU law.

    On immediate practical issues she’s driving up to see us next weekend. She has a GRC and has completed surgical reassignment. She’s been using ladies loos for 5 years without a single adverse comment. Given the Supreme Court’s comments about single sex spaces is this something she can safely do? And what if someone complains? And what if there are new signs on the doors? She looks female now. I am not sure she would feel safe going into a gentleman’s loo. And when you’ve got to go, you’ve got to go. It’s a five hour drive for her.
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    edited April 16
    It's terrifying that one of the best things we can do right now for our beloveds who are trans women is help them hide. I have a friend who is raising a lovely trans girl and they got almost all her paperwork transitioned before Trump took office. That almost is making them very anxious but they have her on a medical treatment plan that is right for her and she's a happy healthy kid*.

    *Albeit rather worried about politics
  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    edited April 16
    Here we go - here's Jess O'Thomson's new piece on it. It really is bad

    https://www.wearequeeraf.com/uk-supreme-court-rules-that-trans-women-arent-women-under-the-equality-act-2010/

    TL;DR: The legal definition of a woman in the UK now excludes trans people after a Supreme Court ruling defined sex as 'biological sex' - sex assigned at birth. The ruling will have a devastating impact on Trans+ rights in the UK, and has already drastically reduced them. Trans people now can't make equal pay claims, and can be excluded from all single-sex spaces under any circumstances

    As JaneR quotes, you can see it using bigoted language and this is ignorant bigoted stuff

    'It now seems legal in the UK to exclude trans people from single-sex spaces under any circumstances'

    It conflicts with the European Court of Human Rights' legal decisions and needs to be challenged. The Scottish government has been utterly craven and isn't going to challenge it and it's highly unlikely that the openly transphobic Labour government will do anything to change the law.


    Jess O'Thomson: My takeaway from the Supreme Court ruling


    There’s no easy way to put it - this decision is terrible for trans people. I have no doubt it will be used as a rallying point for even further attacks on our rights.

    We’re yet to see how all of this will play out in practice, but it seems clear that this won’t just hurt the trans community. The reasoning adopted, and the relentless desire to police ‘what is a woman’ can only hurt our wider communities.

    Now is the moment to work in solidarity with other marginalised groups, and resist an establishment which wants to force us into ever smaller boxes.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    I'm struggling to see how this judgement doesn't effectively nullify the Gender Recognition Act 2004. It seems like the law has been ignored rather than interpreted.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    I think (but, not being a lawyer don't know for certain) that as the case was brought against the Scottish Government that only the Scottish Government would have the option of appealing to the European Court of Human Rights - and (again, not a lawyer) because the Gender Recognition Act that has just been ripped up arose from a ECHR ruling it would seem likely that such an appeal could be successful.
  • Jane RJane R Shipmate
    I expected better of the Supreme Court. They're supposed to think carefully about the implications of their rulings, not just rip them straight from the Daily Heil.
  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    edited April 16
    I think (but, not being a lawyer don't know for certain) that as the case was brought against the Scottish Government that only the Scottish Government would have the option of appealing to the European Court of Human Rights - and (again, not a lawyer) because the Gender Recognition Act that has just been ripped up arose from a ECHR ruling it would seem likely that such an appeal could be successful.

    Because they studiously avoided speaking to any trans people it looks like you're right- nobody has standing to appeal it but the transphobes and the Scottish government and Swinney has already sold out on that - the socially conservative wee coward that he is - running scared of the Herald, Sunday Post and Daily Record.

    He'd better not be let back to Pride.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I'm struggling to see how this judgement doesn't effectively nullify the Gender Recognition Act 2004. It seems like the law has been ignored rather than interpreted.

    My daughter has made this point, particularly so far as single sex spaces are concerned.

    Currently I’m ploughing through the small print.

  • They appear not to have given much consideration to either people who are intersex,

    No, indeed. It seems like "I barely scraped a pass at GCSE Biology" levels of Trumpiness. Actual biology, as we know, is a bit more complicated than that.

    With specific reference to intersex people, I see absolutely no valid reason why the choice ("this kid has ambiguous sex, but we're going to treat them as a boy/as a girl") made by parents in their infancy should be binding on the child as they grow older.
    They are also haven’t explained why they think we ever need single sex facilities that specifically exclude trans men, trans women or non-binary people.

    Modesty taboos are a bit complicated. At one level, we don't "need" single-sex facilities of any kind. Everyone getting naked in the same room works - it's just that a lot of people don't like it. Some of them will claim modesty requirements rooted in their religious faith and practice; others have some kind of internalized modesty taboo that is based on some combination of their upbringing and experience.

    Trans people are also a bit complicated. A trans woman, for example, could be anywhere between a person with a body of standard male appearance who identifies as a woman, to a person with male genetics who has had extensive surgery to acquire a standard female appearance, or anywhere in between.

    It is hard for me to understand how, for example, telling a trans man who wears a beard and has had top & bottom surgery that he needs to change in the women's room because when he was born, hospital staff said "oh look - a vulva!" actually supports anyone's modesty needs, but this seems to be the logical consequence of excluding trans men from the definition of "men".
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host

    It is hard for me to understand how, for example, telling a trans man who wears a beard and has had top & bottom surgery that he needs to change in the women's room because when he was born, hospital staff said "oh look - a vulva!" actually supports anyone's modesty needs, but this seems to be the logical consequence of excluding trans men from the definition of "men".

    TERFs are rarely this logically consistent - it's simply a bald assertion that they should be able to decide who gets into "women's" spaces. They don't really give a shit about what happens in "men's" spaces, up to and including
    all the horrendous crimes committed against trans women, including sexual assault, v-coding etc. In their view it's better for a hundred trans women to be raped than a cis transphobe feel uncomfortable
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Hell Host

    It is hard for me to understand how, for example, telling a trans man who wears a beard and has had top & bottom surgery that he needs to change in the women's room because when he was born, hospital staff said "oh look - a vulva!" actually supports anyone's modesty needs, but this seems to be the logical consequence of excluding trans men from the definition of "men".

    TERFs are rarely this logically consistent - it's simply a bald assertion that they should be able to decide who gets into "women's" spaces.

    I think it's more than that; going from what their leading lights say, they prefer that trans people don't exist at all.

    Further, this is one issue on which the Labour government have proved happy to be led to the right - with a minister this morning comparing their position favourably with the Tories.
  • Yes, not sure about leading lights, but some of the rhetoric looks like getting rid of trans people.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    The idea that biological sex is binary shows that the judges ignored biological science.
  • Jane RJane R Shipmate
    Thereby proving that common sense is actually very rare.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Jane R wrote: »
    Thereby proving that common sense is actually very rare.

    "Not that common, and rarely sense" has been my go-to phrasing.
  • Barnabas62 wrote: »
    The idea that biological sex is binary shows that the judges ignored biological science.

    Yes, presumably they adopted the views of the man in the street, so how are they able to pronounce an authoritative decision? No wonder the Daily Mail acclaimed it.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Hell Host
    Yes, not sure about leading lights, but some of the rhetoric looks like getting rid of trans people.

    I'm not going to mention names as they also tend to be highly litigious, but there's been a lot of rhetoric in the past about creating problematic populations etc.

    I will point at this article though:

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/national/25097138.equalities-boss-outlines-changes-toilets-changing-rooms-womens-sport/

    "She suggested trans rights organisations “should be using their powers of advocacy to ask for those third spaces”."

    That's the head of the EHRC (which on a sidenote we were encouraged to think was a very august and highly impartial body).
  • I'm curious as to what the court based its judgment on. As already stated, not biological science, but a legal view. How is this arrived at?
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    I'm curious as to what the court based its judgment on. As already stated, not biological science, but a legal view. How is this arrived at?

    Supposedly they inferred what parliament meant by "woman" and "sex" when writing the Equality Act 2010, ignoring that parliament will have done so in the full knowledge of the provisions of the GRA 2004 and could have spelled out if they intended to exclude trans women.
  • I notice that Jolyon Maugham is giving this judgment a "good kicking", he's on X and Blue-sky. There are some trans-friendly lawyers.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited April 17
    They've already started coming for the NHS:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce84054nqnyo

    @chrisstiles is this what you mean by "creating problematic populations"? Essentially if the NHS can't treat trans patients on wards which match their gender identity, they'll need to give them individual rooms, which will create resentment on grounds of cost and fairness.
  • I notice that Jolyon Maugham is giving this judgment a "good kicking", he's on X and Blue-sky. There are some trans-friendly lawyers.

    The issue with that though is, IMO, he is an idiot.

    I’m as bewildered about all this (yesterday’s decision) as the next person, but I struggle to care what he thinks. On pretty well any subject.
  • The Equalities Commission now saying they will "pursue" the NHS, if they don't adapt their policies, that is, they must stop being favourable to trans people. Truly, we are in hell, and under a Labour govt.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Hell Host
    KarlLB wrote: »
    @chrisstiles is this what you mean by "creating problematic populations"?

    Sorry if it caused confusion, I was summarising the wording of some of the language I'd seen used without mentioning names - it was TERFs describing what they felt about the then exeunt situation - I don't think they were necessarily thinking about anything so prosaic as provision of third spaces.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Hell Host
    From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce84054nqnyo the EHRC is saying they expect the NHS to change policies. Which policies should be changed?

    "Currently the NHS guidance says trans people should be accommodated according to the way they dress, their names and their pronouns. Under the ruling this would be scrapped."

    Is this the EHRC's interpretation or the BBC's ? Because I'm not sure the ruling would mean that this guidance should be scrapped.

    The impression given is that it's a blank document to be interpreted however the anti-trans camp feels.
  • Presumably the bigots will be going all out to ban trans people, e.g., in hospitals, schools, etc. But it doesn't mean they will be successful.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    edited April 17
    I’ve got an appointment to see my MP.

    Meanwhile, I understand that Baroness Falkender has confirmed the position over single sex locations (e.g toilets and changing rooms) that trans women will not be entitled to use them. Some urgent guidelines are in preparation and will be issued shortly. Presumably as a Statutory Instrument or similar?

    I haven’t seen a source yet (info from my daughter).
  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    The EHRC was institutionally captured under the Tories by that appointment and has taken worrying anti-trans approaches since. Labour could have replaced that person and stopped the damage but didn't.

    Labour are a transphobic party. They are now in charge and they not only do nothing about these attacks but they make attacks of their own (as well as not removing the Section 35 order against the Scottish Parliament on self ID, there's Wes Streeting on puberty blockers and gender markers etc).

    They have continued Conservative policy on this which post- Brexit had joined with the international far right and their media in homing in on trans people as a group to be scapegoated and demonised along with immigrants, people on benefits/ disabled people etc.

    And of course Labour does the latter ones as well.

    Remember the last UK prime minister to support an improvement in trans people's human rights and at least stop things getting worse was Theresa May.

    We are now in a political landscape that has shifted so far right since Brexit that the Labour party have themselves become a far right party who are a danger to minorities and who use scapegoating of minorities based on false premises to drive votes.

    There's no such thing as a pro-Brexit party that isn't far right and dangerous because to explain why the sunlit uplands haven't appeared and everything's still getting worse you need scapegoats.

    And if you can't deliver economic growth to pay for services because you deliberately crippled one of the main ways of driving it, you can deliver wins for hate instead. It's much easier and cheaper.

    We're not at the Trump stage of chaotic evil yet, Starmer and Streeting & co are lawful evil so-to-speak on the alignment chart but it's still bad.

    The media system which cheered on Brexit here and Trump in the US has published thousands and thousands of articles demonising trans people - who are only about 1% of the population.

    It can demonise anyone and destroy their life or human rights. I belong to a group which only recently got demonised by the horseshoe of the far right and reactionaries claiming to be on the left but actually indistinguishable from the right in the effects of their privileged crankery.

    That's part of why people should never treat those demonised as outliers or niche interests - that bell of dehumanisation tolls for everyone.

    Currently it's tolling for trans people and we need to think about how we resist it and fight it most effectively.

    There are demonstrations planned and I will be looking at what trans people and organisations have to say about what they want allies to do.
  • Barnabas62 wrote: »
    I’ve got an appointment to see my MP.

    Meanwhile, I understand that Baroness Falkender has confirmed the position over single sex locations (e.g toilets and changing rooms) that trans women will not be entitled to use them. Some urgent guidelines are in preparation and will be issued shortly. Presumably as a Statutory Instrument or similar?

    I haven’t seen a source yet (info from my daughter).

    But will this actually take effect? Will bigots be patrolling toilets, and scrutinising genitals?
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    What's horrifying to me is that people who are otherwise fierce advocates for safeguarding, for protecting people from abuse, who have moved heaven and earth to improve the attitude of churches towards survivors of abuse are silent or loudly cheering this. I don't know if they're oblivious to the harms experienced by trans women forced into male spaces or are justifying it by saying they just have to stop "pretending" to be women.
  • Well, I'm gob-smacked by the whole array of anti-trans opinion. Who are these people, and what dark thoughts are in their minds?
  • Surely the answer is to be more adult about this, recognise biological reality and the reality that there are trans people? The answer seems to me to follow the example of Denmark and create, in effect, a third gender category of 'X'. My trans friends have long advocated for this - as one, David, says It is fact that I was born female and that Debbie lived and achieved for 20 years before I came about, and I don't want to deny that. I'm not male now, I'm a third gender.

    I think trying to shoehorn trans people into the two specific categories many insist on is wrong - they are their own people and we must accept that and make provision for them as that.
  • Some schools close to me have been sympathetic to kids transitioning. So will the bigots now steam in, demanding full detransition? And their parents accused of child abuse? If they seriously attempt this, it will cause havoc.
  • Barnabas62 wrote: »

    Meanwhile, I understand that Baroness Falkender has confirmed the position over single sex locations (e.g toilets and changing rooms) that trans women will not be entitled to use them.

    Baroness Falkner?

    Baroness Falkender is a bit dead.


  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Surely the answer is to be more adult about this, recognise biological reality and the reality that there are trans people? The answer seems to me to follow the example of Denmark and create, in effect, a third gender category of 'X'. My trans friends have long advocated for this - as one, David, says It is fact that I was born female and that Debbie lived and achieved for 20 years before I came about, and I don't want to deny that. I'm not male now, I'm a third gender.

    I think trying to shoehorn trans people into the two specific categories many insist on is wrong - they are their own people and we must accept that and make provision for them as that.

    How is it more "adult" to force people into a third category who don't want to be there? Non-binary people exist, but not all trans people are non-binary and pretending they are doesn't solve anything.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Quite right! I meant Falkner. Sorry. Hard to keep my head straight today; I’m pretty distressed. Someone I love very much is being victimised.
  • Barnabas62 wrote: »
    Quite right! I meant Falkner. Sorry. Hard to keep my head straight today; I’m pretty distressed. Someone I love very much is being victimised.

    No it was a genuine query - I hadn't actually heard of Baroness Falkner before 10 minutes ago, so had to google, but *had* heard of the late Marcia Williams. I briefly wondered if there was a new one with the same name.

    Wasn't trying to minimise the situation at all.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Didn’t think you were. The Baroness is Chair of the EHRC (Equality and Human Rights Commission). I’m not sure how concerned she is for the human rights of trans people. There’s an opinion that the EHRC has been invaded by transphobes. With some reason.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Hell Host
    edited April 17
    Louise wrote: »
    The EHRC was institutionally captured under the Tories by that appointment and has taken worrying anti-trans approaches since.

    Not just that one single appointment and relatedly there is a track record of people from the EHRC tweeting and making statements that are anti-Black or Islamaphobic going back many years.
  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    edited April 17
    Yes they're not fit for purpose or rather seem to be being used for purposes that are the opposite of why you'd think they exist
  • or are justifying it by saying they just have to stop "pretending" to be women.

    That is exactly the way that many of these people think. In the US, you could start with the disgusting collection of Republicans who persist in addressing Rep. Sarah McBride as "Mr. McBride, the gentleman from Delaware" and the like.

    They have chosen to believe that trans people do not exist, and do exactly view trans women as "men pretending to be women", and their solution is basically "you're not a woman - get over it". They are not interested in what trans people say, because they have decided that it's self-evident that trans people are wrong about who they are.

  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    or are justifying it by saying they just have to stop "pretending" to be women.

    That is exactly the way that many of these people think. In the US, you could start with the disgusting collection of Republicans who persist in addressing Rep. Sarah McBride as "Mr. McBride, the gentleman from Delaware" and the like.

    They have chosen to believe that trans people do not exist, and do exactly view trans women as "men pretending to be women", and their solution is basically "you're not a woman - get over it". They are not interested in what trans people say, because they have decided that it's self-evident that trans people are wrong about who they are.

    And there are millions like them, loudly cheering the Supreme Court decision.

    Frankly, it's classic hatred of difference. Same mentality that flushes the school weirdo's head down the bog. Empathy failure.
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    KarlLB wrote: »

    Frankly, it's classic hatred of difference. Same mentality that flushes the school weirdo's head down the bog. Empathy failure.

    And fear of difference. 😢

  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    And of course they tell others lies about trans people to make them afraid too
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