The Vatican’s official text of the sermon italicized the words “I come to you as a brother” — a consequential marker indicating Leo’s intention to remodel the papacy into the office of a primus inter pares (first among equals), which has been a significant demand of Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran churches in ecumenical dialogues with the Vatican in recent years.
If he really does mean to make the papacy into something these other churches can accept, this all sounds very promising for increased Christian unity.
The Vatican’s official text of the sermon italicized the words “I come to you as a brother” — a consequential marker indicating Leo’s intention to remodel the papacy into the office of a primus inter pares (first among equals), which has been a significant demand of Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran churches in ecumenical dialogues with the Vatican in recent years.
If he really does mean to make the papacy into something these other churches can accept, this all sounds very promising for increased Christian unity.
I would bet that full communion will still be contingent on accepting RC views on the priesthood and the Eucharist, but I'd like to be surprised.
The Vatican’s official text of the sermon italicized the words “I come to you as a brother” — a consequential marker indicating Leo’s intention to remodel the papacy into the office of a primus inter pares (first among equals), which has been a significant demand of Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran churches in ecumenical dialogues with the Vatican in recent years.
If he really does mean to make the papacy into something these other churches can accept, this all sounds very promising for increased Christian unity.
I would bet that full communion will still be contingent on accepting RC views on the priesthood and the Eucharist, but I'd like to be surprised.
I suspect he is looking East rather than West. Middle Eastern Churches are really suffering, and there is already agreement on those topics, but not on Primacy and how it is exercised. For the churches of the Reformation, it might come down to politely agreeing to differ on doctrine, but full cooperation on big issues like poverty, climate change and the mass migration these are already causing.
The Vatican’s official text of the sermon italicized the words “I come to you as a brother” — a consequential marker indicating Leo’s intention to remodel the papacy into the office of a primus inter pares (first among equals), which has been a significant demand of Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran churches in ecumenical dialogues with the Vatican in recent years.
If he really does mean to make the papacy into something these other churches can accept, this all sounds very promising for increased Christian unity.
I would bet that full communion will still be contingent on accepting RC views on the priesthood and the Eucharist, but I'd like to be surprised.
Actually, there has been some movement on the RC view of the priesthood. Protestants, for the most part, hold to the position of the priesthood of all believers. The Council of Trent held that the priesthood was a sacrament reserved for those called into it (males, of course). However, it Vatican II the Romans accepted the concept of the common priesthood of all believers but still felt the ordained priesthood was a sacrament. Leo seems to be favoring the common priesthood in relation to other denominations. but he still holds only males can be ordained priests. On the other hand, he may be open to accepting women in the role of deacon. Point is, there is movement.
I think you need to be careful on the doctrine of Priesthood of all believers for Protestants. There are many and varied positions on that and it is not a singly defined position. My own take would be that there is one Priest, Christ and as part of his body all Christians share in his priesthood. There is nothing in that that is not acceptable to Catholics or Orthodox. Indeed part of the Catholic rite anoints the candidate as a priest at Baptism in this sense.
I hold as plausible that within that Priesthood there maybe a specific roles/callings which may be sensed as priestly. What if any those roles/callings are is a huge area of debate both within Protestantism. It is not for me to decide, and I tend to view as multiple anyway. It, however, stretches from out right rejection to very similar understandings of that of the Roman Catholic Church.
An Addendum what I do think you find in Protestantism is that there is more freedom around who may perform the functions that are normally associated with these priestly roles/callings and these are often intimately linked with their understanding of what is happening at Eucharist and other sacraments.
For RCs and I think the Orthodox, the priesthood of believers operates in two ways. Firstly there is the duty all Christians share to bring people to Christ. Secondly to join with the ordained in offering the Eucharist and to not just be passive spectators.
According to Catholic teaching all those who are baptised are considered to be 'prophets, priests and kings'.
All 'christian' baptisms are considered by the RC Church to be valid, if they have been carried out 'in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit'
This means that,according to the teaching of the RC Church, all, including the those from the many thousands of Protestant denominations, are 'prophets, priests and kings'
What exactly is meant by 'prophet,priest and king' is an other question. However along with these titles there is the expectation that the baptised will act in a way which conforms to these titles.
In addition to the 'priesthood of all believers' the RC Church recognises also the 'ministerial priesthood' of those who serve in the particular pastoral work of the Church. Many 'Protestant' denominations recognise also a specially appointed group of people who serve in the ministry of Word and Sacrament, irrespective of what words they may use to designate such 'ministers of Word and Sacrament'
'Priest' is a shortened form of the word 'Presbyter' which is often translated into English as 'Elder'.
If this becomes a persistent theme we could use exploding trad cath heads as an energy source.
This cracked me up!
More ecumenicity would be wonderful. I'm not sure about the 'first among equals' phrase which reminds me of Orwell's Animal Farm: 'Some of us are more equal than others'; but genuine collegiality and Roman Catholic participation in ecumenical projects and missions could be a game changer.
If this becomes a persistent theme we could use exploding trad cath heads as an energy source.
This cracked me up!
More ecumenicity would be wonderful. I'm not sure about the 'first among equals' phrase which reminds me of Orwell's Animal Farm: 'Some of us are more equal than others'; but genuine collegiality and Roman Catholic participation in ecumenical projects and missions could be a game changer.
Primus inter pares is common enough in Anglican circles, being the position of the Archbishop of Canterbury among the Primates of the Anglican Communion, or indeed the Primus of the SEC among the college of bishops. It's also a pretty common view among Anglicans that the Pope is the most senior bishop but not accepting the Papal claim of universal jurisdiction.
There are similar views among some Orthodox. Others are as anti 'papist' as the most hardline Ulster Protestant and would make the late Rev Ian Paisley look like Mr Ecumenical in comparison.
It's high time we all got round a table and sorted it all out.
There are similar views among some Orthodox. Others are as anti 'papist' as the most hardline Ulster Protestant and would make the late Rev Ian Paisley look like Mr Ecumenical in comparison.
It's high time we all got round a table and sorted it all out.
No chance. There are people whose identity is being one of the select few. Their self-esteem is directly proportional to how many other people are Wrong.
If this becomes a persistent theme we could use exploding trad cath heads as an energy source.
This cracked me up!
More ecumenicity would be wonderful. I'm not sure about the 'first among equals' phrase which reminds me of Orwell's Animal Farm: 'Some of us are more equal than others'; but genuine collegiality and Roman Catholic participation in ecumenical projects and missions could be a game changer.
Primus inter pares is common enough in Anglican circles, being the position of the Archbishop of Canterbury among the Primates of the Anglican Communion, or indeed the Primus of the SEC among the college of bishops. It's also a pretty common view among Anglicans that the Pope is the most senior bishop but not accepting the Papal claim of universal jurisdiction.
Amen! And that we have Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments if enacted by a priest. How this might work with a new direction by Rome, I don’t know.
If this becomes a persistent theme we could use exploding trad cath heads as an energy source.
This cracked me up!
More ecumenicity would be wonderful. I'm not sure about the 'first among equals' phrase which reminds me of Orwell's Animal Farm: 'Some of us are more equal than others'; but genuine collegiality and Roman Catholic participation in ecumenical projects and missions could be a game changer.
Primus inter pares is common enough in Anglican circles, being the position of the Archbishop of Canterbury among the Primates of the Anglican Communion, or indeed the Primus of the SEC among the college of bishops. It's also a pretty common view among Anglicans that the Pope is the most senior bishop but not accepting the Papal claim of universal jurisdiction.
Amen! And that we have Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments if enacted by a priest. How this might work with a new direction by Rome, I don’t know.
Rome won't row back on Anglican orders until/unless it's ready to ordain women.
If this becomes a persistent theme we could use exploding trad cath heads as an energy source.
This cracked me up!
More ecumenicity would be wonderful. I'm not sure about the 'first among equals' phrase which reminds me of Orwell's Animal Farm: 'Some of us are more equal than others'; but genuine collegiality and Roman Catholic participation in ecumenical projects and missions could be a game changer.
Primus inter pares is common enough in Anglican circles, being the position of the Archbishop of Canterbury among the Primates of the Anglican Communion, or indeed the Primus of the SEC among the college of bishops. It's also a pretty common view among Anglicans that the Pope is the most senior bishop but not accepting the Papal claim of universal jurisdiction.
Amen! And that we have Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments if enacted by a priest. How this might work with a new direction by Rome, I don’t know.
Rome won't row back on Anglican orders until/unless it's ready to ordain women.
Well, they might row back on ordained men, if those men have been ordained by men going back, but I don't know if they'd be willing to do that. There are also Anglican churches that don't ordain women to the priesthood.
If this becomes a persistent theme we could use exploding trad cath heads as an energy source.
This cracked me up!
More ecumenicity would be wonderful. I'm not sure about the 'first among equals' phrase which reminds me of Orwell's Animal Farm: 'Some of us are more equal than others'; but genuine collegiality and Roman Catholic participation in ecumenical projects and missions could be a game changer.
Primus inter pares is common enough in Anglican circles, being the position of the Archbishop of Canterbury among the Primates of the Anglican Communion, or indeed the Primus of the SEC among the college of bishops. It's also a pretty common view among Anglicans that the Pope is the most senior bishop but not accepting the Papal claim of universal jurisdiction.
Amen! And that we have Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments if enacted by a priest. How this might work with a new direction by Rome, I don’t know.
Rome won't row back on Anglican orders until/unless it's ready to ordain women.
Well, they might row back on ordained men, if those men have been ordained by men going back, but I don't know if they'd be willing to do that. There are also Anglican churches that don't ordain women to the priesthood.
If this becomes a persistent theme we could use exploding trad cath heads as an energy source.
This cracked me up!
More ecumenicity would be wonderful. I'm not sure about the 'first among equals' phrase which reminds me of Orwell's Animal Farm: 'Some of us are more equal than others'; but genuine collegiality and Roman Catholic participation in ecumenical projects and missions could be a game changer.
Primus inter pares is common enough in Anglican circles, being the position of the Archbishop of Canterbury among the Primates of the Anglican Communion, or indeed the Primus of the SEC among the college of bishops. It's also a pretty common view among Anglicans that the Pope is the most senior bishop but not accepting the Papal claim of universal jurisdiction.
Amen! And that we have Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments if enacted by a priest. How this might work with a new direction by Rome, I don’t know.
Rome won't row back on Anglican orders until/unless it's ready to ordain women.
Well, they might row back on ordained men, if those men have been ordained by men going back, but I don't know if they'd be willing to do that. There are also Anglican churches that don't ordain women to the priesthood.
If this becomes a persistent theme we could use exploding trad cath heads as an energy source.
This cracked me up!
More ecumenicity would be wonderful. I'm not sure about the 'first among equals' phrase which reminds me of Orwell's Animal Farm: 'Some of us are more equal than others'; but genuine collegiality and Roman Catholic participation in ecumenical projects and missions could be a game changer.
Primus inter pares is common enough in Anglican circles, being the position of the Archbishop of Canterbury among the Primates of the Anglican Communion, or indeed the Primus of the SEC among the college of bishops. It's also a pretty common view among Anglicans that the Pope is the most senior bishop but not accepting the Papal claim of universal jurisdiction.
Amen! And that we have Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments if enacted by a priest. How this might work with a new direction by Rome, I don’t know.
Rome won't row back on Anglican orders until/unless it's ready to ordain women.
Well, they might row back on ordained men, if those men have been ordained by men going back, but I don't know if they'd be willing to do that. There are also Anglican churches that don't ordain women to the priesthood.
This is going to be very interesting when we get a woman as ABoC.
Indeed! We in the US have already had a female Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church.
Yebbut, it's relatively easy for a Girls Have Cooties priest or Bishop from elsewhere to just harrumph and disapprove. It's a bit more difficult when the person he believes isn't even a priest, much less a bishop, is the leader of his communion.
The easy solution really is to appoint a trans woman and just wait for their brains to explode as they decide whether she can be validly ordained or not as they play bigotry bingo inside their own heads.
If this becomes a persistent theme we could use exploding trad cath heads as an energy source.
This cracked me up!
More ecumenicity would be wonderful. I'm not sure about the 'first among equals' phrase which reminds me of Orwell's Animal Farm: 'Some of us are more equal than others'; but genuine collegiality and Roman Catholic participation in ecumenical projects and missions could be a game changer.
Primus inter pares is common enough in Anglican circles, being the position of the Archbishop of Canterbury among the Primates of the Anglican Communion, or indeed the Primus of the SEC among the college of bishops. It's also a pretty common view among Anglicans that the Pope is the most senior bishop but not accepting the Papal claim of universal jurisdiction.
Amen! And that we have Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments if enacted by a priest. How this might work with a new direction by Rome, I don’t know.
Rome won't row back on Anglican orders until/unless it's ready to ordain women.
Well, they might row back on ordained men, if those men have been ordained by men going back, but I don't know if they'd be willing to do that. There are also Anglican churches that don't ordain women to the priesthood.
This is going to be very interesting when we get a woman as ABoC.
Indeed! We in the US have already had a female Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church.
Yebbut, it's relatively easy for a Girls Have Cooties priest or Bishop from elsewhere to just harrumph and disapprove. It's a bit more difficult when the person he believes isn't even a priest, much less a bishop, is the leader of his communion.
The easy solution really is to appoint a trans woman and just wait for their brains to explode as they decide whether she can be validly ordained or not as they play bigotry bingo inside their own heads.
Well, depending on their reasons for holding their views, of course, which may or may not stem from bigotry per se.
If this becomes a persistent theme we could use exploding trad cath heads as an energy source.
This cracked me up!
More ecumenicity would be wonderful. I'm not sure about the 'first among equals' phrase which reminds me of Orwell's Animal Farm: 'Some of us are more equal than others'; but genuine collegiality and Roman Catholic participation in ecumenical projects and missions could be a game changer.
Primus inter pares is common enough in Anglican circles, being the position of the Archbishop of Canterbury among the Primates of the Anglican Communion, or indeed the Primus of the SEC among the college of bishops. It's also a pretty common view among Anglicans that the Pope is the most senior bishop but not accepting the Papal claim of universal jurisdiction.
Amen! And that we have Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments if enacted by a priest. How this might work with a new direction by Rome, I don’t know.
Rome won't row back on Anglican orders until/unless it's ready to ordain women.
Well, they might row back on ordained men, if those men have been ordained by men going back, but I don't know if they'd be willing to do that. There are also Anglican churches that don't ordain women to the priesthood.
This is going to be very interesting when we get a woman as ABoC.
Indeed! We in the US have already had a female Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church.
Yebbut, it's relatively easy for a Girls Have Cooties priest or Bishop from elsewhere to just harrumph and disapprove. It's a bit more difficult when the person he believes isn't even a priest, much less a bishop, is the leader of his communion.
The easy solution really is to appoint a trans woman and just wait for their brains to explode as they decide whether she can be validly ordained or not as they play bigotry bingo inside their own heads.
Well, depending on their reasons for holding their views, of course, which may or may not stem from bigotry per se.
The "I'm not sexist personally but I have to oppose women's ordination because God is" people? I'm long past giving them a pass.
If this becomes a persistent theme we could use exploding trad cath heads as an energy source.
This cracked me up!
More ecumenicity would be wonderful. I'm not sure about the 'first among equals' phrase which reminds me of Orwell's Animal Farm: 'Some of us are more equal than others'; but genuine collegiality and Roman Catholic participation in ecumenical projects and missions could be a game changer.
Primus inter pares is common enough in Anglican circles, being the position of the Archbishop of Canterbury among the Primates of the Anglican Communion, or indeed the Primus of the SEC among the college of bishops. It's also a pretty common view among Anglicans that the Pope is the most senior bishop but not accepting the Papal claim of universal jurisdiction.
Amen! And that we have Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments if enacted by a priest. How this might work with a new direction by Rome, I don’t know.
Rome won't row back on Anglican orders until/unless it's ready to ordain women.
Rome may not want to engage with Protestant/Anglican Churches beyond warm cooperation. It's focus is on the East where there are not issues about orders and gender etc, but where Christian Churches are under severe persecution and people are actually being martyred for their faith.
If this becomes a persistent theme we could use exploding trad cath heads as an energy source.
This cracked me up!
More ecumenicity would be wonderful. I'm not sure about the 'first among equals' phrase which reminds me of Orwell's Animal Farm: 'Some of us are more equal than others'; but genuine collegiality and Roman Catholic participation in ecumenical projects and missions could be a game changer.
Primus inter pares is common enough in Anglican circles, being the position of the Archbishop of Canterbury among the Primates of the Anglican Communion, or indeed the Primus of the SEC among the college of bishops. It's also a pretty common view among Anglicans that the Pope is the most senior bishop but not accepting the Papal claim of universal jurisdiction.
Amen! And that we have Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments if enacted by a priest. How this might work with a new direction by Rome, I don’t know.
Rome won't row back on Anglican orders until/unless it's ready to ordain women.
Apostolic Curae was enacted by the previous Leo.
Indeed - one of the most embarrassing and poorly thought-through Papal pronouncements in history*, so let's hope the new Leo doesn't use that as a template!
*The response from the CofE, Saepius Officio, in Latin so elegant it was praised by the Vatican, gently pointed out that the yardstick used in Apostolicae Curae to invalidate Anglican orders also, logically, invalidated Roman Catholic and Orthodox orders on any grounds except 'I say it doesn't and I'm the Pope'!
If this becomes a persistent theme we could use exploding trad cath heads as an energy source.
This cracked me up!
More ecumenicity would be wonderful. I'm not sure about the 'first among equals' phrase which reminds me of Orwell's Animal Farm: 'Some of us are more equal than others'; but genuine collegiality and Roman Catholic participation in ecumenical projects and missions could be a game changer.
Primus inter pares is common enough in Anglican circles, being the position of the Archbishop of Canterbury among the Primates of the Anglican Communion, or indeed the Primus of the SEC among the college of bishops. It's also a pretty common view among Anglicans that the Pope is the most senior bishop but not accepting the Papal claim of universal jurisdiction.
Amen! And that we have Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments if enacted by a priest. How this might work with a new direction by Rome, I don’t know.
Rome won't row back on Anglican orders until/unless it's ready to ordain women.
Apostolic Curae was enacted by the previous Leo.
Indeed - one of the most embarrassing and poorly thought-through Papal pronouncements in history*, so let's hope the new Leo doesn't use that as a template!
FWIW, the “Doctrinal Commentary on the Concluding Formula of the Professio fidei” (1998), includes “the declaration of Pope Leo XIII in the Apostolic Letter Apostolicae Curae on the invalidity of Anglican ordinations” among examples of “those truths connected to revelation by historical necessity and which are to be held definitively, but are not able to be declared as divinely revealed.” (Emphasis added.) The teaching that only men can be ordained to the priesthood is another example given.
Comments
Following the Mass, he also raised the situations in Gaza, Myanmar and Ukraine and, earlier today, while continuing a cycle of catechesis started by Francis, he added another appeal for humantarian aid and ending of hostilities in the Gaza Strip.
If he really does mean to make the papacy into something these other churches can accept, this all sounds very promising for increased Christian unity.
I would bet that full communion will still be contingent on accepting RC views on the priesthood and the Eucharist, but I'd like to be surprised.
I suspect he is looking East rather than West. Middle Eastern Churches are really suffering, and there is already agreement on those topics, but not on Primacy and how it is exercised. For the churches of the Reformation, it might come down to politely agreeing to differ on doctrine, but full cooperation on big issues like poverty, climate change and the mass migration these are already causing.
Actually, there has been some movement on the RC view of the priesthood. Protestants, for the most part, hold to the position of the priesthood of all believers. The Council of Trent held that the priesthood was a sacrament reserved for those called into it (males, of course). However, it Vatican II the Romans accepted the concept of the common priesthood of all believers but still felt the ordained priesthood was a sacrament. Leo seems to be favoring the common priesthood in relation to other denominations. but he still holds only males can be ordained priests. On the other hand, he may be open to accepting women in the role of deacon. Point is, there is movement.
I hold as plausible that within that Priesthood there maybe a specific roles/callings which may be sensed as priestly. What if any those roles/callings are is a huge area of debate both within Protestantism. It is not for me to decide, and I tend to view as multiple anyway. It, however, stretches from out right rejection to very similar understandings of that of the Roman Catholic Church.
All 'christian' baptisms are considered by the RC Church to be valid, if they have been carried out 'in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit'
This means that,according to the teaching of the RC Church, all, including the those from the many thousands of Protestant denominations, are 'prophets, priests and kings'
What exactly is meant by 'prophet,priest and king' is an other question. However along with these titles there is the expectation that the baptised will act in a way which conforms to these titles.
In addition to the 'priesthood of all believers' the RC Church recognises also the 'ministerial priesthood' of those who serve in the particular pastoral work of the Church. Many 'Protestant' denominations recognise also a specially appointed group of people who serve in the ministry of Word and Sacrament, irrespective of what words they may use to designate such 'ministers of Word and Sacrament'
'Priest' is a shortened form of the word 'Presbyter' which is often translated into English as 'Elder'.
This cracked me up!
More ecumenicity would be wonderful. I'm not sure about the 'first among equals' phrase which reminds me of Orwell's Animal Farm: 'Some of us are more equal than others'; but genuine collegiality and Roman Catholic participation in ecumenical projects and missions could be a game changer.
Primus inter pares is common enough in Anglican circles, being the position of the Archbishop of Canterbury among the Primates of the Anglican Communion, or indeed the Primus of the SEC among the college of bishops. It's also a pretty common view among Anglicans that the Pope is the most senior bishop but not accepting the Papal claim of universal jurisdiction.
It's high time we all got round a table and sorted it all out.
No chance. There are people whose identity is being one of the select few. Their self-esteem is directly proportional to how many other people are Wrong.
Amen! And that we have Apostolic Succession and valid sacraments if enacted by a priest. How this might work with a new direction by Rome, I don’t know.
Rome won't row back on Anglican orders until/unless it's ready to ordain women.
Well, they might row back on ordained men, if those men have been ordained by men going back, but I don't know if they'd be willing to do that. There are also Anglican churches that don't ordain women to the priesthood.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination_of_women_in_the_Anglican_Communion
This is going to be very interesting when we get a woman as ABoC.
Indeed! We in the US have already had a female Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church.
Yebbut, it's relatively easy for a Girls Have Cooties priest or Bishop from elsewhere to just harrumph and disapprove. It's a bit more difficult when the person he believes isn't even a priest, much less a bishop, is the leader of his communion.
The easy solution really is to appoint a trans woman and just wait for their brains to explode as they decide whether she can be validly ordained or not as they play bigotry bingo inside their own heads.
Well, depending on their reasons for holding their views, of course, which may or may not stem from bigotry per se.
The "I'm not sexist personally but I have to oppose women's ordination because God is" people? I'm long past giving them a pass.
la vie en rouge, Purgatory host
Apostolic Curae was enacted by the previous Leo.
Indeed - one of the most embarrassing and poorly thought-through Papal pronouncements in history*, so let's hope the new Leo doesn't use that as a template!
*The response from the CofE, Saepius Officio, in Latin so elegant it was praised by the Vatican, gently pointed out that the yardstick used in Apostolicae Curae to invalidate Anglican orders also, logically, invalidated Roman Catholic and Orthodox orders on any grounds except 'I say it doesn't and I'm the Pope'!