Trump Tariffs

Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
edited July 29 in Purgatory
Let me get this straight.

If Trump is imposing 50% tariffs on imported steal and 25% tariffs on imported car parts, which will significantly raise the prices of cars made in America, while raising finished EU products imported into the United States by 15%, wouldn't be to the advantage of car makers to make their products in Europe?

Meanwhile lawsuits are winding their way through the American International Tarriff Court challenging Trump's claim to emergency powers to impose tariffs. Originally the lower courts had tried to stay Trump's tariff orders but SCOTUS, I think, allowed him to continue to collect the tariffs on the promise he would reimburse them if the courts finally rules against him

Now that would be interesting.

Comments

  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Let me get this straight.

    If Trump is imposing 50% tariffs on imported steal and 25% tariffs on imported car parts, which will significantly raise the prices of cars made in America, while raising finished EU products imported into the United States by 15%, wouldn't be to the advantage of car makers to make their products in Europe?

    Meanwhile lawsuits are winding their way through the American International Tarriff Court challenging Trump's claim to emergency powers to impose tariffs. Originally the lower courts had tried to stay Trump's tariff orders but SCOTUS, I think, allowed him to continue to collect the tariffs on the promise he would reimburse them if the courts finally rules against him

    Now that would be interesting.

    With Trumps attitude towards the law they could be waiting a long time for the money if they did.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    50% tariffs on imported steal

    Just to point out he has not and would never tariff imported theft. In fact, he loves it and encourages it at every opportunity.

    Trump does not understand tariffs. He makes this clear again and again. He still seems to think that the countries he imposes them on pay the tariffs, not - as everyone points out - the US consumer.

    If challenged, of course, he says that people should just buy from the US. Ignoring the fact that, in most cases, the US no longer has the capability, to set it up would take decades and cost a fortune, the products would be more expensive therefore and probably of poorer quality, without the experience that other places have of producing them, and so would have only a US market, which is not big enough.

    Of course, being so stupid he would be outsmarted by a squashed grape, he doesn't understand this even a little.

    And anyone who points this out he accuses of being "un-American".
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host

    Of course, being so stupid he would be outsmarted by a squashed grape, he doesn't understand this even a little.

    And anyone who points this out he accuses of being "un-American".

    He thinks he is America. So anyone who disagrees with him is, of course, un-American in his eyes.

  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    The case looking at whether or not Trump has the authority to impose these tariffs continues to wind through the courts.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Caissa wrote: »
    The case looking at whether or not Trump has the authority to impose these tariffs continues to wind through the courts.

    It might not make a difference as far as Trump is concerned. He appears to view court judgments as advisory, except when they affect people he doesn’t like.
  • Not even advisory. Almost always as evidence of disloyalty, leading to revenge.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Politico is reporting the Washington Federal Court of Appeals has given a frosty reception to the claim by Trump he can invoke emergency powers to impose tariffs.

    Of course, even if the appeals court rules against Trump. he will go to SCOTUS--and if they rule against him, that will be a lot of sh-- hitting the fan.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Politico is reporting the Washington Federal Court of Appeals has given a frosty reception to the claim by Trump he can invoke emergency powers to impose tariffs.

    Of course, even if the appeals court rules against Trump. he will go to SCOTUS--and if they rule against him, that will be a lot of sh-- hitting the fan.

    How likely is that. From over here he seems to have a lot of friends in SCOTUS
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Hugal wrote: »
    From over here he seems to have a lot of friends in SCOTUS

    Yup. Six, to be exact.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    If the lower courts have all said there is nothing in the Emergency Economic Powers Act of 1977 that mentions he can impose tariffs on his own authority, that would be a very tough road to go down. Besides, the Constitution clearly states only Congress has the power to impose impose tariffs Article 1, Section 8
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Well, here’s a thing.

    Shoot the messenger if you don’t like the message?

    Plus the underlying retaliatory message from Trump to all those in government providing data is clear. Loyalty to him is more important than accuracy.

    I quote Frank Herbert again, from “Dune Messiah”.

    “If you put away from you those who tell you the truth, those who remain will know what you want to hear. I can think of nothing more poisonous than to rot in the stink of your own reflections”.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Well, with what little I have in the markets, I HOPE they bounce back this time.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Well, with what little I have in the markets, I HOPE they bounce back this time.

    "The markets" will probably be fine, after some adjustments. Consumers, not so much. Here's a snippet from the New York Times [ paywall ] on reactions to the latest round of tariffs.
    And in recent days — before Mr. Trump announced tariffs for much of the world on Thursday night — Adidas, Procter & Gamble, Stanley Black & Decker and other large corporations told investors that they either had increased prices or planned to do so soon to offset the tariff costs. Companies like Walmart and the toymakers Hasbro and Mattel had already warned that tariffs would lead to higher prices.

    We have no interest in running a lower-margin business, particularly due to tariffs,” Richard Westenberger, the chief financial officer of Carter’s, a children’s apparel maker, said on a call with analysts on July 25. “And if this is something that’s going to be a permanent increase to our cost structure, we have to find a way to cover it.

    Wow! Who knew that putting a massive new tax on imported consumer goods would increase the price of consumer goods? At any rate, while most large corporations are fairly pro-Trump (they love the lower taxes and dismantling any enforcement of labor or environmental regulations), they're definitely not willing to lower their profit margins just so Trump's policies look more successful and less idiotic.
  • There is an analysis (I can't find the source right now) that Trump's tariffs should be viewed as a sales tax in disguise. The US is an outlier in that it has no Goods and Services Tax/Value Added Tax or Sales tax and the federal level and the US Government relies heavily on income taxes. Domestic federal sales taxes are politically impossible in the US but in the form of tarrifs on import they are palatable. US consumers pay them either way.
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    I seem to remember the price at the till in the US was always more than the price given on the shelf. Was that not due to sales tax?
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    AIUI, sales taxes in the US are set locally with no Federal sales taxes. I don't know how those would compare to VAT in other nations, but would be very variable in different places - both in what percentage they are and what they apply to. I don't know why the displayed price doesn't include the tax to be paid (possibly it's similar to the practice of certain low-cost airlines in advertising very low prices which exclude all taxes and other charges to entice people into buying because it looks very much cheaper than it is).
  • Boogie wrote: »
    I seem to remember the price at the till in the US was always more than the price given on the shelf. Was that not due to sales tax?

    Also in Canada. The cash register price is always higher than the displayed price for taxable products, whether its a button or a car.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Before the income tax was instituted in the US, much of our tax structure was based on tariffs. We were a young country with new industries, tariffs were a way of protecting our growth as a nation. We also had excise taxes, sometimes called sin taxes, on tobacco, alcohol and the like. Also, utilities. Then there is the federal gas tax. In a sense, these are all a sales tax on goods and services, but they are all regressive in nature. The income tax was designed to be progressive, and the inheritance taxes were to prevent the excessive transfer of wealth within a family.

    While people are saying the average American family will pay on average an extra $2400 on goods and services per year as a result of the tariffs, you can damn well bet it will be the lower classes than the higher income brackets that will experience more of the burden.

    Wife and I have a moderate income for a retired couple. However, we don't have an extra $2,400 to cover the average estimated tax. Something will have to give. We usually make a once a year trip somewhere. We had hoped for Hawaii. Probably not going to happen.

    If other families have to make similar decisions, it will mean our economy will shrink PDQ. That will have an impact on the markets. That is why they dropped so deep when T first announced his plans in April.

    On top of that, the firing of the head of the statistics chairperson in the Bureau of Labor and Statistics will have a chilling effect on the future markets because businesses need accurate numbers to plan out their business strategies. No one likes flying blind into a cloud bank. It could be too late to head off negative consequences.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    I don't know why the displayed price doesn't include the tax to be paid (possibly it's similar to the practice of certain low-cost airlines in advertising very low prices which exclude all taxes and other charges to entice people into buying because it looks very much cheaper than it is).

    The displayed price doesn't include sales tax because there's no law requiring it and there's no incentive for stores to do this. But I don't think omitting sales tax on the displayed price entices people to buy because we all know there's going to be sales tax and we know what it is. It's not like airfare, because there are no other extra fees when you buy clothing or shampoo or whatever. The one thing I buy regularly where there are extra taxes is gasoline, and all gas stations display the total price per gallon with all taxes included because it would indeed be a shock to find out you're paying an extra 60 cents or so per gallon in California excise tax.

    Also sales taxes vary a lot. Here in Long Beach it's 10.5%. In nearby cities, all places where I've recently purchased goods or services, it's variously 9.75%, 10.25%, 7.75%, and 9.25%. Stores don't want me to think they're charging people in Huntington Beach significantly less for shampoo than they're charging me a few miles away. That variation is a governmental decision, not a marketing one, because around here a sales tax is actually several taxes rolled together -- state, county and city. Long Beach people buying big-ticket items, such as appliances or cars, will sometimes go down to Orange County to make their purchases to save on sales tax.
  • MarsupialMarsupial Shipmate
    We’ve only got the federal and provincial sales tax here (13% combined) but most vendors don’t include it in the sticker price because they don’t have to. The exceptions that come to mind are gas and booze - where there is an excise tax being factored in as well.
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