New ABC

KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
We have a new Archbishop of Canterbury - Dame Sarah Mullally, Bishop of London.

What are people's thoughts?

How will this appointment affect women's ministry within the CofE and in the wider communion? How does it work when you have large numbers of people who don't think you're even a priest, let alone the Archbishop?
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Comments

  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited October 3
    Wow, I didn't know that! There was a lot of speculation that it would be the Bishop of Chelmsford, but clearly not.

    Strangely enough I was at a meeting just 10 days ago where she spoke. There was tea and coffee before the meeting and, when she walked in, I thought: "I know that face - but who is she?". I don't know all the Bishops of the Church in Wales so I mistakenly thought it must be one of them!

    It's a "brave" choice ...I don't know how it will work out. At least she is young enough to have several years in post.
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    A mother as ABC. Wonderful!

    She said when she became Archbishop of London ""If our churches are going to be more relevant to our communities, that means increasing churches that are led by priests that are women, who come from black, Asian and minority ethnic groups,"

    She was right.

    "Archbishop Sarah is a late ordinand who before ordination was Chief Nursing Officer in the Department of Health. She trained for the ministry at the South East Institute for Theologian Education and served her first curacy at Battersea Fields in Southwark Diocese from 2001 to 2006. From 2006 to 2012 she was Team Rector at Sutton in Southwark Diocese. From 2012 to 2015 she was Canon Residentiary and Canon Treasurer at Salisbury Cathedral before taking up her role in 2015 as Suffragan Bishop of Crediton in the Diocese of Exeter. Bishop Sarah was installed as the 133rd Bishop of London at St Paul’s Cathedral on 12th May 2018."
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Soon-to-be ++Sarah does have some blots on her copy book, as I recall, but I suspect her main virtue is that she's not notably associated with a particular party within the church. Whether this will finally push the headship crowd (or the extreme Society types) into putting up or shutting up remains to be seen. If it does it might finally take the heat from LLF.
  • HelenEvaHelenEva Shipmate
    I always hoped there'd be a female Archbish Cantuar in my lifetime and now there is. Hurrah!
  • She has taken on the Worst Job in the C of E, so will be in much need of support and prayer from those who do accept the ministry of ordained women.

    Those who don't may well find this too bitter a pill to swallow, in which case they will have to make some difficult decisions, especially if they are stipendiary clergy.

    Quite how the very conservative groups elsewhere in the Anglican Communion will deal with her remains to be seen.
  • DavidKetelbyDavidKetelby Shipmate Posts: 4
    Theo Hobson, 'A female Archbishop of Canterbury changes everything for the CofE'.

    (Although a Spectator article, this isn't far-right or -phobic garbage).
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    About bloody time there was a female ABC. Let the AC schism begin.
  • Caissa wrote: »
    Let the AC schism begin.

    AC?

    Anglican Communion maybe.

    Anglo Catholic no - the current leadership of the trad ACs are very friendly with and used to working with her. They’ll be hoping for business as usual and will probably get it.

    It’s the conservative evangelicals that are worth watching
  • Which fwiw is why I think Theo Hobson is mostly talking bilge in the direction of the fulfilment of his usual (repeatedly, in the Spectator) hobby horse. He’s tilting at windmills. It’s not the traditionalist catholic people with the flying bishops he needs to focus on (and fwiw I don’t think they’ll be going anywhere, or need to).

    It’s the busy evangelical shacks with all the money that he needs to worry about.
  • (Sorry for third post) just to be clear, I’ve no issues with the appointment at all. But I’m in a church with a female priest these days anyway. But my (many) trad AC links all seem content in private, never mind publicly, today.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    AC= Anglican Communion. What else would it have meant? I suppose if I use ACC I would have to spell it out, as well (muses the Canadian).
  • betjemaniacbetjemaniac Shipmate
    edited October 3
    Well in the UK AC tends to be Anglo Catholic…

    (In CofE circles I mean)
  • Wales got their female Archbishop in first!

    However she's only officially being "enthroned" (what a terrible word) next month.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    I will remember that for the future, Betjemaniac. I never see it as an abbreviation for Anglo-Catholic in my neck of the woods.
  • Caissa wrote: »
    I will remember that for the future, Betjemaniac. I never see it as an abbreviation for Anglo-Catholic in my neck of the woods.

    No worries - given the nature of the event though it could well have been either! Hence asking.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited October 3
    Wales got their female Archbishop in first!
    And The Episcopal Church (US) got their first female presiding bishop almost two decades earlier.


  • HedgehogHedgehog Shipmate
    Caissa wrote: »
    AC= Anglican Communion. What else would it have meant? I suppose if I use ACC I would have to spell it out, as well (muses the Canadian).

    That's okay. I saw the thread title and thought "Who would want to change the alphabet? I mean, it is already in alphabetical order!" In fairness to me, I have just now started drinking my pot of oolong. It may take a few minutes before the benefit to my thinking process kicks in.
  • HelenEvaHelenEva Shipmate
    Caissa wrote: »
    I will remember that for the future, Betjemaniac. I never see it as an abbreviation for Anglo-Catholic in my neck of the woods.

    No worries - given the nature of the event though it could well have been either! Hence asking.

    So is an Anglo Catholic communicant in the Anglican Communion in Canada an ACCACC? [gets coat]
  • JabberwockyJabberwocky Shipmate Posts: 35
    edited October 3
    I have been hoping and praying that they might choose a woman to be the ABC, but I am very concerned how the more conservative sections of the Anglican Communion (AC) will view her legitimacy.


  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Congratulations are in order.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited October 3
    Apologies to H&As for possibly prolonging a Dead Horse aspect of this thread, but it seems hard to avoid.

    Just out of interest, I looked up the 587 churches in England which the pressure group WATCH* (Women And The Church) lists as being those who restrict, limit, or reject the ministry of ordained women, and not only that of ordained women...

    In this Diocese, 11 are members of The Society of SS Wilfrid & Hilda - the traditionalist Anglo-Catholic parishes - and 5 are under the episcopal care of +Ebbsfleet and are in the conservative-evangelical camp.

    It is true, as @betjemaniac says, that those A-C parishes co-exist quite happily with the Diocesan Bishop and most of the rest of the Diocese. Two of the conservative Ebbsfleet churches, however, are the wealthiest in the Diocese, and have huge (by Anglican standards) congregations.

    They are indeed the ones to watch, but their total defection is, I think (FWIW) unlikely, given that they already have their own alternative episcopal oversight.

    *Which I have just joined, BTW.
  • ATMF wrote, 'Soon-to-be ++Sarah does have some blots on her copy book, as I recall'.

    Hmmm .... haven't we all .... would you care to expand on this, please?
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    @Bishops Finger WATCH has unfortunately been quite a hotbed of some very nasty transphobia towards trans women clergy - obviously it's up to you how you spend your money, but they are not at all the inclusive feminist organisation that they pretend to be. As someone who is all for more women clergy in the Church of England I am not at all a fan of WATCH.

    @Boogie I am sure there was no slight intended towards childless/childfree women, but childfree women in particular have enough of a hard time within the Church without suggesting that motherhood makes someone better at being an Archbishop. Nobody would suggest that a male bishop without children would make an inferior Archbishop compared to one with children.

    Speaking personally, I am surprised that they would go for a woman simply because being the first would be an extra poisoned chalice on top of the already poisoned chalice that is being ABC - but my impression of ++Mullally is that she's a pretty unimpressive neoliberal but equally has nothing about her to scare the horses. I don't see that as a benefit, but I can see the appeal from a managerial perspective. I would certainly suggest that she's nowhere near as progressive as people might expect a female bishop to be, and that's probably why she was seen as being safe enough for the job - she's not in any way a radical but very establishment-friendly.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Also echoing @betjemaniac wrt conservative churches. While I take @Bishops Finger 's point about individually wealthy and large conservative Anglo-Catholic churches, they still have nowhere near the cultural or monetary power of eg a St Helen's Bishopgate. That said, most evangelical Anglicans these days are on the charismatic end and they generally accept women clergy. There are a lot of young evangelical women clergy these days.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Poor woman. I hope she has a thick skin.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    RockyRoger wrote: »
    ATMF wrote, 'Soon-to-be ++Sarah does have some blots on her copy book, as I recall'.

    Hmmm .... haven't we all .... would you care to expand on this, please?

    Those paying attention to the circumstances that led to the tragic death of Fr Alan Griffin think that stb ++Sarah is implicated in them. There is also a small but vocal group still furious about the measures taken to protect public health during a global pandemic, but I'm rather less convinced by them.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Alan29 wrote: »
    Poor woman. I hope she has a thick skin.

    I mean, nobody has forced her to take the job!
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Theoretically, God might have pressured her.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    RockyRoger wrote: »
    ATMF wrote, 'Soon-to-be ++Sarah does have some blots on her copy book, as I recall'.

    Hmmm .... haven't we all .... would you care to expand on this, please?

    Those paying attention to the circumstances that led to the tragic death of Fr Alan Griffin think that stb ++Sarah is implicated in them. There is also a small but vocal group still furious about the measures taken to protect public health during a global pandemic, but I'm rather less convinced by them.

    I am confused by this the coroner appear to suggest both that no investigation took place, and that an investigation found no evidence.

    Is it that investigation was delayed, and then subsequently cleared him posthumously ?
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Pomona wrote: »
    @Boogie I am sure there was no slight intended towards childless/childfree women, but childfree women in particular have enough of a hard time within the Church without suggesting that motherhood makes someone better at being an Archbishop. Nobody would suggest that a male bishop without children would make an inferior Archbishop compared to one with children.

    But Boogie didn't suggest that motherhood would make ++Mullally a better archbishop. She just said "Wonderful!" When someone who I can identify with in some way achieves a position like this, I feel the same way.
    [/quote]
    They [churches that restrict, limit, or reject the ministry of ordained women] are indeed the ones to watch, but their total defection is, I think (FWIW) unlikely, given that they already have their own alternative episcopal oversight.

    Question out of my ignorance -- how long can that alternative oversight hold out? Do they essentially have a church within the church, with their own little line of succession stemming only from male bishops that they can just maintain indefinitely?
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Also, this seems very much like an instance of the glass cliff phenomenon, the appointment of a CEO to a company in distress -- the board only finally chooses a woman to lead when things are really bad.
  • They [churches that restrict, limit, or reject the ministry of ordained women] are indeed the ones to watch, but their total defection is, I think (FWIW) unlikely, given that they already have their own alternative episcopal oversight.

    Question out of my ignorance -- how long can that alternative oversight hold out? Do they essentially have a church within the church, with their own little line of succession stemming only from male bishops that they can just maintain indefinitely?[/quote]

    I'm not sure, though I take your point. I can only speak of that whereof I know, but there are some A-C churches which have gone back to the mainstream in recent years, deciding to eschew the alternative episcopal oversight.

    The (very short) list of 'alternative episcopal oversight' bishops has also changed lately, with replacements coming forward for those who retire. For how long this can go on is anyone's guess!

  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited October 3
    @Pomona - thanks for the info regarding WATCH. I wasn't aware of their stance re transgender, and have cancelled my direct debit.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    @Ruth "A mother as ABC. Wonderful!" suggests that there is something about a mother being ABC that is particularly wonderful - by definition that would have to mean that a childfree woman being ABC is less wonderful. For all that I'm not a fan of Mullally, none of her achievements in the NHS or in the Church are due to her having had children. Nobody would say "a father as ABC, how wonderful!" because childless men aren't seen as lacking in the same way that childless women are.

    I did say that I realised that no slight towards childless/childfree women was intended.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    @Pomona - thanks for the info regarding WATCH. I wasn't aware of their stance re transgender, and have cancelled my direct debit.

    For clarification, I don't believe that it's an official stance wrt trans women - but they have allowed transphobia to flourish nonetheless. It's very much a "liberal but not progressive" group if that makes sense.
  • Yes, it does - thanks.
  • betjemaniacbetjemaniac Shipmate
    edited October 3
    Ruth wrote: »
    Question out of my ignorance -- how long can that alternative oversight hold out? Do they essentially have a church within the church, with their own little line of succession stemming only from male bishops that they can just maintain indefinitely?

    Basically yes. The newest flying bishops are of a (young) age where they’ll easily still be going maybe 10 years *after* this ABC reaches retirement age.
  • Ie if no one does anything for the next 20 years, and no new flying bishops are consecrated, then there might be an issue in 20 years. But no one’s really expecting there not to be any new ones, so it won’t arise.

    +Oswestry and +Richborough are 20 years off retirement. In fact, if I were a conspiracy theorist, I would suggest that the establishment has ensured young flying bishops in place (+Fulham is older) precisely to help the traditionalist catholics get through a female ABC at this point…
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Pomona wrote: »
    Alan29 wrote: »
    Poor woman. I hope she has a thick skin.

    I mean, nobody has forced her to take the job!

    Agreed, but she will still need a thick skin.
  • Pomona wrote: »
    Alan29 wrote: »
    Poor woman. I hope she has a thick skin.

    I mean, nobody has forced her to take the job!

    Out of curiosity is there much of a history of people turning down the appointment?
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    If there is it’s something that would quite possibly not be known. People are invited to put their name forward, and can easily say ‘no’ at that point. The CNC would then not even consider their name.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Pomona wrote: »
    @Ruth "A mother as ABC. Wonderful!" suggests that there is something about a mother being ABC that is particularly wonderful - by definition that would have to mean that a childfree woman being ABC is less wonderful.
    It does not have to mean this. It can mean that it is wonderful that this soon-to-be ABC is a mother, and that it would be wonderful in a different way if she were not. You acknowledge that no slight was intended but insist on reading one in.
  • Ie if no one does anything for the next 20 years, and no new flying bishops are consecrated, then there might be an issue in 20 years. But no one’s really expecting there not to be any new ones, so it won’t arise.

    +Oswestry and +Richborough are 20 years off retirement. In fact, if I were a conspiracy theorist, I would suggest that the establishment has ensured young flying bishops in place (+Fulham is older) precisely to help the traditionalist catholics get through a female ABC at this point…

    An interesting view - I wouldn't be surprised to learn that you're actually right...

    I think the new ABC will have a lot more to contend with than the traditionalist Anglo-Catholics. Without wishing to be brutal, many of those traditionalists are getting on in years, and there may well be more churches leaving the Society (but retaining Catholic-style worship etc.) as time goes by. I doubt if Our Place will be one, but you never know.
  • It just struck me that time is very much on the side of both appointments (and Blackburn) so looking back from here (IYSWIM?) it starts to look like an *arrangement*

    I really didn’t think it would happen this time round, but now it has I’m looking back at some of the deck shuffling of the last year or two (or three) in the traditionalist Catholic world, and can’t believe I didn’t suss it at the time.

    Some one (or some people) have been very clever here if I am right.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited October 3
    Indeed.

    God works in a mysterious way...

    A lot of the traditionalist A-C parishes do work very hard to keep the rumour of God alive, so to speak, even against great odds (deprived parishes, tiny ageing congregations, lack of £££ etc. etc.), and the Dead Horse issue is often of little concern to many - not all, of course - of the laity.

    If the new ABC keeps these Places in the fold, however, all well and good, but ISTM that there is a great deal of goodwill on the part of the traditionalists, which is not often noted or reported upon.
  • 100% agree. In my pretty extensive experience the traditional catholics these days are happy with the arrangements, happy where they are, and are getting on with ‘being church’ alongside everyone else.
  • TwangistTwangist Shipmate
    100% agree. In my pretty extensive experience the traditional catholics these days are happy with the arrangements, happy where they are, and are getting on with ‘being church’ alongside everyone else.

    That sounds like actual mutual flourishing
  • Well, not always exactly flourishing, but moving in the right direction!
  • JabberwockyJabberwocky Shipmate Posts: 35
    Urgh, I just went and read the comments on a post about soon to be ++Sarah on a social media site, and I feel like I need to bleach my brain.

    @Pomona thank you for the info on WATCH.
  • Wales got their female Archbishop in first!

    However she's only officially being "enthroned" (what a terrible word) next month.

    I think it's a perfectly good word, myself.

    Do we know what her theology is like? Wikipedia quotes the Financial Times as saying she was "seen as a theological liberal," but I don't know what they meant by that, nor by whom she was seen that way at the time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Mullally#Views
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