I would say that changes are afoot in the (Baptist Union) Baptists. While there is a smallish but probably slowly-growing group of "progressive" churches and ministers (though few or none as "liberal" as some in the Methodists and the URC), there is also a recently formed "pushback" conservative movement which defines itself as Evangelical in a fairly narrow sense.
I'm picking up that there are some differences between GAFCON and the 'Global South' group of Anglican Provinces.
GAFCON is a largely African/Australian fusion whereas the Global South group includes Singaporean and Latin American Anglicans who don't necessarily swing the same way.
There are also differences between the African approach which I'm told tends towards arriving at a 'common mind' on issues and the Sydney Anglican one which tends to more more 'directive' and also more sola scriptura in its neo-Calvinist sense. Equally, some African Provinces are more Anglo-Catholic than evangelical.
From what I can gather this isn't expected to lead to all out splits and schisms but do wonder how long a UDI GAFCON could hold itself together.
Evangelicalism is notoriously fissaporous. Once we have the likes of Bishop Jensen proclaiming that scripture 'alone' should be the source of unity when interpreted in its 'plain canonical sense' - shorthand for 'the way he interprets it' - then the ground is set for further fissures.
I'm picking up that there are some differences between GAFCON and the 'Global South' group of Anglican Provinces.
GAFCON is a largely African/Australian fusion whereas the Global South group includes Singaporean and Latin American Anglicans who don't necessarily swing the same way.
The Church of South East Asia (which includes the Diocese of Singapore) partnered with the Church of Rwanda in the AMiA effort, so at one point they were quite closely aligned with Gafcon, I'm not sure what has happened since, in any case it's just under 100K strong. I'm not sure which Latin American groups you are thinking of, as both Chilean and breakaway Brazilian group are in both.
@Jengie Jon I meant more distinguishing between liberal and progressive, which I think is more to do with your second point - but also that things vary naturally according to the local area, if there are any multi-denominational partnerships, etc. For eg there seem to be quite a lot of Methodist churches around me, and they are generally somewhat more conservative leaning than the national Methodist norm (though not universally so). I personally just chalk that up to regional differences and would think that the same applies to the URC, Baptists etc too.
Nope. You really need to learn church history. Methodism is a merged church in the UK, and each church has its own flavour. Equally different churches dominated in other areas. I live in a region with a high number of the lowest of the low(Methodist New Connexion) among Methodists for just this reason. Though with Sheffield being a Methodist city and the lowest of the low always being small, you really have to know what to look for to spot it now. There was even one branch that was Anglo-Catholic in flavour. If you get to talk to the older people, they quite possibly could tell you which denomination they come from because their grandparents told them. The merger happened around 1930, but the flavours are still there. I could certainly tell the difference between Carver St Wesley and Hanover Methodist (now both closed) in the 1990s. The removal of stationing by conference means that churches now pick their minister, which will slow the dissolution of the individual character of congregations.
Methodist are not descendents of Puritan/Separatists and therefore my comments about Baptists and URC do not apply to them.
I'm aware that Methodists aren't descendents of Puritans/Separatists. I was also aware of Methodists in the UK being a merged church and I know that around here Primitive Methodism dominated. I still don't see how that contradicts the idea that different styles/emphases flourish in different regions. To me they would go hand in hand.
I'm picking up that there are some differences between GAFCON and the 'Global South' group of Anglican Provinces.
GAFCON is a largely African/Australian fusion whereas the Global South group includes Singaporean and Latin American Anglicans who don't necessarily swing the same way.
The Church of South East Asia (which includes the Diocese of Singapore) partnered with the Church of Rwanda in the AMiA effort, so at one point they were quite closely aligned with Gafcon, I'm not sure what has happened since, in any case it's just under 100K strong. I'm not sure which Latin American groups you are thinking of, as both Chilean and breakaway Brazilian group are in both.
Sure. I did a bit of a lurk online where conservative Anglicans who aren't part of GAFCON but broadly sympathetic to it, were discussing these issues.
They acknowledged that they might be guilty of engaging in cultural stereotyping but they felt that culturally there could be a degree of tension between Sydney and some of the African Provinces as well as Asian and Latin American Anglicans.
They didn't 'unpack' it more than that nor did they foresee all out war between Anglican Provinces in the Southern Hemisphere.
GAFCON is not monolithic but as far as I can see, though, is united mainly by what it is against rather than what it is for.
From my brief online excursion it seems that conservative Anglicans elsewhere are seeing this as a 'reset' rather than a revolution.
They appear to see it as a timely reiteration of what they see as traditional Anglican values following recent assaults by the liberal establishment in Canterbury and its allies in Canada, New Zealand, Wales and Scotland.
It should be the Gospel not Canterbury that acts as the unifying principle with the Articles, the Homilies and so on underlining and supporting that.
Which begs questions of course as to why these Articles and Homilies should be favoured over other confessions and councils and what makes Anglican ones 'worthy of all acceptance' rather than Reformed ones or whatever else.
And indeed what we understand by the Gospel. The Gospel according to Jensen? To Nigeria? To Canterbury?
The two Archbishops in the Church of Ireland have responded to the two solo runs by +D&D and +KEA. Bit of a CofI 101 lesson given.
"Archbishops’ statement on the Church of Ireland and the Anglican Communion
The Most Rev John McDowell, the Church of Ireland’s Primate of All Ireland and Archbishop of Armagh, with the Most Rev Michael Jackson, Primate of Ireland and Archbishop of Dublin have issued the following statement on the relationship between the Church of Ireland and the Anglican Communion following the recent communiqué from Gafcon:
In view of the recent communiqué issued by Gafcon, entitled The Future has Arrived, we feel it might be helpful to members of the Church of Ireland if we clarified some matters of fact, with particular reference to the Anglican Communion.
The Anglican Communion is a body of autonomous Anglican Provinces (including the Church of Ireland) who voluntarily join together in clearly defined ways. It has existed in a formal sense since 1867, when the Archbishop of Canterbury issued invitations to what became the first Lambeth Conference. From the beginning, the Office of the Archbishop of Canterbury and the convening of the Lambeth Conference were expressions of Anglican unity and identity which, as the Communion grew over time, were supplemented by two further instruments of unity – the Primates’ Meeting and the Anglican Consultative Council (ACC).
This is the Anglican Communion to which the Church of Ireland belongs. The Preamble and Declaration (which is one of our foundation formularies) commits us to communion with the Church of England. The Preamble and Declaration is prefixed to the Constitution and included in the Book of Common Prayer. Our bishops receive invitations to and usually attend the Lambeth Conference. The Archbishop of Armagh attends the Primates’ Meetings and the General Synod appoints representatives (clerical and lay) to the ACC. In fact, the next meeting of the ACC to which all Anglican Provinces have been invited to send representatives will be hosted by the Church of Ireland in Belfast in the early summer of 2026. In addition, the Church of Ireland plays a full part in the Commissions, Committees and Networks of the Anglican Communion and in this way lives out this particular aspect of our discipleship of Jesus Christ.
There are many organisations and movements within the Anglican Communion who wish to reform aspects of the Communion and how it works. The Communion has always welcomed and accommodated debate and diversity of this nature. However, the Church of Ireland recognises no body other than the one described in the preceding paragraphs as the Anglican Communion.
We do not suggest that the Anglican Communion as it has existed in history and continues to exist today is a perfect organisation. It is inevitable that those who hold to the Anglican theological method involving Scripture, Tradition and Reason, and working out our discipleship in autonomous but interdependent Provinces will not agree on everything. However, praying always for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we are committed to studying the Scriptures and learning from the insights of the past together with our fellow Anglicans, in communion, around the world."
I was quoting what these conservative clergy were saying, or what I understood them to be saying, rather than what my own opinion might be. I don't know enough about the inner workings of the Anglican Communion, nor the CofE come to that ...
I may well have misunderstood them. They may have been saying that the Gospel is normative and that any Articles and Homilies and whatever else in any part of the Anglican Communion are subsidiary to that.
Whatever the case, it still begs the question as to what is understood by 'the Gospel' and how the scriptures are to be interpreted.
Whatever the case, it still begs the question as to what is understood by 'the Gospel' and how the scriptures are to be interpreted.
And it has always been the case that no province has the right to tell another how to understand or interpret. The recent apoplexy from conservatives has been a result of them discovering that being free of the CofE appointing their bishops and setting their canons means that other provinces are equally free to do things conservatives don't like.
I may well have misunderstood them. They may have been saying that the Gospel is normative and that any Articles and Homilies and whatever else in any part of the Anglican Communion are subsidiary to that.
Well, unless you are in the position to quote/link to the source we can't say whether or not you misunderstood them.
I've only seen commentary (Thinking Anglicans) querying Sola Scriptura wrt Hooker, rather than the "Gospel" per se.
Whatever the ins-and-outs, and rights-or-wrongs may be, this whole GAFCON thing seems to me to be banal, self-righteous, arid, dreary, loveless, and lifeless.
That doesn't rule out the fact that many GAFCON or GAFCON-style parishes are lively and socially-aware, at least in parts. No one church, province, priest, lay person, or parish is perfect...
I wonder what God makes of it? We are told somewhere that Jesus wept.
I'll find the link. It's a lengthy discussion on an 'Anglican TV' online channel in the US. I didn't know such things existed.
If it’s the YouTube channel they take a fairly singular view of things and as podcasters should probably be best regarded as ‘just some guys’
Sure. I didn't say they were 'authoritive' sources in any way. Just some guys chewing the fat.
I rarely look at churchy stuff on You Tube, including from my own lot, unless someone brings it to my attention or, as in this case, I just wanted to eavesdrop to get some kind of 'feel' for the sort of things that are being said.
My overall impression was that these guys ought to find something else to do with their time.
The Secretary General of the Anglican Communion, Bishop Anthony Poggo, has issued a Pastoral Letter in response to the statement by GAFCON. Unsurprisingly, it's a primarily a word of encouragement, and an exhortation to keep meeting together. He only addresses the substance of GAFCON's statement in general terms:
… Divisions among Anglicans, and many other divisions in the Body of Christ, are sadly well known, as we see in the Scriptures (1 Cor 11:17). These divisions require urgent attention and repair, by means of every instrument available to us.
There's a link to the letter (pdf file) on this page. Being 17 October when he wrote it, the martyred bishop he references is Ignatius of Antioch.
When we were in Newfoundland, a few clergy, including our former Bishop, left to join the Anglican Network in Canada, AIUI under the auspices of the Bishop of the Southern Cone.
Some of them seemed odd bedfellows: there were some opposed to the ordination of women; some who were so far up the candle their hair was in danger of catching fire; some who opposed same-sex marriage. Did they become part of GAFCON?
I'm asking out of curiosity (or maybe ignorance); perhaps @Caissa (or any other Canadians on this thread) could enlighten me?
Some of them seemed odd bedfellows: there were some opposed to the ordination of women; some who were so far up the candle their hair was in danger of catching fire; some who opposed same-sex marriage. Did they become part of GAFCON?
The Anglican Church of the Southern Cone (now Anglican Church of South America) is part of GAFCON, yes. Though the Anglican Network in Canada is now part of the ACNA (separately also a member of GAFCON).
Comments
GAFCON is a largely African/Australian fusion whereas the Global South group includes Singaporean and Latin American Anglicans who don't necessarily swing the same way.
There are also differences between the African approach which I'm told tends towards arriving at a 'common mind' on issues and the Sydney Anglican one which tends to more more 'directive' and also more sola scriptura in its neo-Calvinist sense. Equally, some African Provinces are more Anglo-Catholic than evangelical.
From what I can gather this isn't expected to lead to all out splits and schisms but do wonder how long a UDI GAFCON could hold itself together.
Evangelicalism is notoriously fissaporous. Once we have the likes of Bishop Jensen proclaiming that scripture 'alone' should be the source of unity when interpreted in its 'plain canonical sense' - shorthand for 'the way he interprets it' - then the ground is set for further fissures.
'Twas ever thus.
The Church of South East Asia (which includes the Diocese of Singapore) partnered with the Church of Rwanda in the AMiA effort, so at one point they were quite closely aligned with Gafcon, I'm not sure what has happened since, in any case it's just under 100K strong. I'm not sure which Latin American groups you are thinking of, as both Chilean and breakaway Brazilian group are in both.
I'm aware that Methodists aren't descendents of Puritans/Separatists. I was also aware of Methodists in the UK being a merged church and I know that around here Primitive Methodism dominated. I still don't see how that contradicts the idea that different styles/emphases flourish in different regions. To me they would go hand in hand.
Sure. I did a bit of a lurk online where conservative Anglicans who aren't part of GAFCON but broadly sympathetic to it, were discussing these issues.
They acknowledged that they might be guilty of engaging in cultural stereotyping but they felt that culturally there could be a degree of tension between Sydney and some of the African Provinces as well as Asian and Latin American Anglicans.
They didn't 'unpack' it more than that nor did they foresee all out war between Anglican Provinces in the Southern Hemisphere.
GAFCON is not monolithic but as far as I can see, though, is united mainly by what it is against rather than what it is for.
From my brief online excursion it seems that conservative Anglicans elsewhere are seeing this as a 'reset' rather than a revolution.
They appear to see it as a timely reiteration of what they see as traditional Anglican values following recent assaults by the liberal establishment in Canterbury and its allies in Canada, New Zealand, Wales and Scotland.
It should be the Gospel not Canterbury that acts as the unifying principle with the Articles, the Homilies and so on underlining and supporting that.
Which begs questions of course as to why these Articles and Homilies should be favoured over other confessions and councils and what makes Anglican ones 'worthy of all acceptance' rather than Reformed ones or whatever else.
And indeed what we understand by the Gospel. The Gospel according to Jensen? To Nigeria? To Canterbury?
Answers on a postcard please ...
"Archbishops’ statement on the Church of Ireland and the Anglican Communion
The Most Rev John McDowell, the Church of Ireland’s Primate of All Ireland and Archbishop of Armagh, with the Most Rev Michael Jackson, Primate of Ireland and Archbishop of Dublin have issued the following statement on the relationship between the Church of Ireland and the Anglican Communion following the recent communiqué from Gafcon:
In view of the recent communiqué issued by Gafcon, entitled The Future has Arrived, we feel it might be helpful to members of the Church of Ireland if we clarified some matters of fact, with particular reference to the Anglican Communion.
The Anglican Communion is a body of autonomous Anglican Provinces (including the Church of Ireland) who voluntarily join together in clearly defined ways. It has existed in a formal sense since 1867, when the Archbishop of Canterbury issued invitations to what became the first Lambeth Conference. From the beginning, the Office of the Archbishop of Canterbury and the convening of the Lambeth Conference were expressions of Anglican unity and identity which, as the Communion grew over time, were supplemented by two further instruments of unity – the Primates’ Meeting and the Anglican Consultative Council (ACC).
This is the Anglican Communion to which the Church of Ireland belongs. The Preamble and Declaration (which is one of our foundation formularies) commits us to communion with the Church of England. The Preamble and Declaration is prefixed to the Constitution and included in the Book of Common Prayer. Our bishops receive invitations to and usually attend the Lambeth Conference. The Archbishop of Armagh attends the Primates’ Meetings and the General Synod appoints representatives (clerical and lay) to the ACC. In fact, the next meeting of the ACC to which all Anglican Provinces have been invited to send representatives will be hosted by the Church of Ireland in Belfast in the early summer of 2026. In addition, the Church of Ireland plays a full part in the Commissions, Committees and Networks of the Anglican Communion and in this way lives out this particular aspect of our discipleship of Jesus Christ.
There are many organisations and movements within the Anglican Communion who wish to reform aspects of the Communion and how it works. The Communion has always welcomed and accommodated debate and diversity of this nature. However, the Church of Ireland recognises no body other than the one described in the preceding paragraphs as the Anglican Communion.
We do not suggest that the Anglican Communion as it has existed in history and continues to exist today is a perfect organisation. It is inevitable that those who hold to the Anglican theological method involving Scripture, Tradition and Reason, and working out our discipleship in autonomous but interdependent Provinces will not agree on everything. However, praying always for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we are committed to studying the Scriptures and learning from the insights of the past together with our fellow Anglicans, in communion, around the world."
Except that the Articles and Homilies are not part of the inheritance of all Anglican churches and should not be considered normative.
I may well have misunderstood them. They may have been saying that the Gospel is normative and that any Articles and Homilies and whatever else in any part of the Anglican Communion are subsidiary to that.
Whatever the case, it still begs the question as to what is understood by 'the Gospel' and how the scriptures are to be interpreted.
And it has always been the case that no province has the right to tell another how to understand or interpret. The recent apoplexy from conservatives has been a result of them discovering that being free of the CofE appointing their bishops and setting their canons means that other provinces are equally free to do things conservatives don't like.
Well, unless you are in the position to quote/link to the source we can't say whether or not you misunderstood them.
I've only seen commentary (Thinking Anglicans) querying Sola Scriptura wrt Hooker, rather than the "Gospel" per se.
If it’s the YouTube channel they take a fairly singular view of things and as podcasters should probably be best regarded as ‘just some guys’
That doesn't rule out the fact that many GAFCON or GAFCON-style parishes are lively and socially-aware, at least in parts. No one church, province, priest, lay person, or parish is perfect...
I wonder what God makes of it? We are told somewhere that Jesus wept.
Sure. I didn't say they were 'authoritive' sources in any way. Just some guys chewing the fat.
I rarely look at churchy stuff on You Tube, including from my own lot, unless someone brings it to my attention or, as in this case, I just wanted to eavesdrop to get some kind of 'feel' for the sort of things that are being said.
My overall impression was that these guys ought to find something else to do with their time.
There's a link to the letter (pdf file) on this page. Being 17 October when he wrote it, the martyred bishop he references is Ignatius of Antioch.
Some of them seemed odd bedfellows: there were some opposed to the ordination of women; some who were so far up the candle their hair was in danger of catching fire; some who opposed same-sex marriage. Did they become part of GAFCON?
I'm asking out of curiosity (or maybe ignorance); perhaps @Caissa (or any other Canadians on this thread) could enlighten me?
The Anglican Church of the Southern Cone (now Anglican Church of South America) is part of GAFCON, yes. Though the Anglican Network in Canada is now part of the ACNA (separately also a member of GAFCON).