A Sign of the Times

News item: reports of the Bondi, Australia massacre.
News item: reports of the US government thwarting planned attacks in LA area over New Years.

A church I know has decided to have their traditional Christmas Eve Service, but they are not going to advertise it in the local media because of ongoing threats from the Proud Boys (a far right militia group in the US) and a possible ICE raid if the event were published (They minister to a large group of Hispanic migrants). It will all be word of mouth.

Shaking my head.

Is this congregation doing the right thing for their own safety?

Or should they proudly advertise their Christmas service, come what may?

Comments

  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    So I guess now we're just waiting for the cock to crow?

    [Seriously, though. The idea that this might constitute a denial of Christ is the only reason I can see for debating the pros and cons of reduced publicity. From a purely utilitarian perspective, if they think that ICE is perpetrating harm against the communities they minister to, and that higher visibility for the Christmas Eve service might aid ICE in their harmful endeavours, then by all means, they should keep that service low-profile.

    Though I suppose there might be an issue if the religion in question requires its members to attend Christmas Eve services, and if some of them don't see the ads they won't know where to go?]
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    My question would be would ICE not suppose there would be service anyway. It is a church, it is Christmas Eve. Surely the chances of a service are high.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    My question would be would ICE not suppose there would be service anyway. It is a church, it is Christmas Eve. Surely the chances of a service are high.
    Not necessarily. Depends on the kind of church. For example, if it’s where I am and it’s a Baptist church, I’d say the chances of a Christmas Eve service are maybe 50-50. Maybe even lower.


  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    My question would be would ICE not suppose there would be service anyway. It is a church, it is Christmas Eve. Surely the chances of a service are high.
    Not necessarily. Depends on the kind of church. For example, if it’s where I am and it’s a Baptist church, I’d say the chances of a Christmas Eve service are maybe 50-50. Maybe even lower.
    Added to that, there's also a question of when on Christmas Eve any service might be. It seems common for some churches to have a service that runs passed midnight into Christmas Day. Whereas other churches might have a service early in the evening (6 or 7pm).
  • Services considerably earlier than midnight (or thereabouts) seem to be more commonly found in the C of E nowadays than previously.

    Our Place sticks to 1130pm for 'Midnight' Mass, with the Crib Service at 5pm - rather later than some neighbouring churches, who have theirs at around 3pm.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    When I sang in the cathedral we timed it so that the Gloria started at midnight. They and everywhere else in these parts starts at 8.00 or 8.30.
    We have a packed and noisy kids Mass at 5.00 with tableaux, processions and dressing up, a more normal one at 8.00, and one at 10.30 in the morning.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Or should they proudly advertise their Christmas service, come what may?

    Come what may? Like people being abducted and sent to a torture prison in El Salvador? Deported to a country where they haven't lived since childhood? Entirely lost in our detention system? Sent to Guantanamo? Detained indefinitely without access to adequate medical care, lawyers, food, sleep?

    I'm shocked that you raise their decision as a question for debate. The Proud Boys are after them. ICE and CPB are after them. What is the argument in favor of advertising their Christmas service? What are we even talking about here?
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited December 16
    In some instances, there may be a case for forgetting about Christmas services until Trump is dead (or in jail) and gone.
  • Ruth wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Or should they proudly advertise their Christmas service, come what may?

    Come what may? Like people being abducted and sent to a torture prison in El Salvador? Deported to a country where they haven't lived since childhood? Entirely lost in our detention system? Sent to Guantanamo? Detained indefinitely without access to adequate medical care, lawyers, food, sleep?

    I'm shocked that you raise their decision as a question for debate. The Proud Boys are after them. ICE and CPB are after them. What is the argument in favor of advertising their Christmas service? What are we even talking about here?

    Not really questioning their decision. They have every right to keep things quiet. I certainly imagine in the time of Nero Christians kept on the down low about their gatherings. To me, it is too bad a faith community has to resort to the tactics of the early Christians in today's world.
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    A few of our local Latino congregations work with rapid response teams. When there is a reason to believe members are in danger, volunteers come out to patrol the area and make sure that everyone can get to worship, worship, and leave safely. These people* actually found a van attempting to kidnap congregants. When they announced it's existence, it left. People are free and safe because of those alert volunteers.

    *I am in that group but was not present or involved in this.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Would my poor understanding of the amendments to the US Constitution allow such groups to carry arms to defend people attending worship from the actions of a tyrannical government? Or would volunteers patrolling an area need to establish themselves as a militia first?
  • Would my poor understanding of the amendments to the US Constitution allow such groups to carry arms to defend people attending worship from the actions of a tyrannical government? Or would volunteers patrolling an area need to establish themselves as a militia first?

    That is a difficult question. Second amendment people would say this is the very reason why citizens should exercise their right to keep and bear arms; however, if a gunman would want to take on these ICE people actively, the right to keep and bear arms would disappear. You shoot at a government person, they will shoot back with a lot more fire power than your group can muster.

    Best advise, in my book, is to use whistles and smart phone cameras. ICE does not seem to have an effective countermeasure against them.

  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    Would my poor understanding of the amendments to the US Constitution allow such groups to carry arms to defend people attending worship from the actions of a tyrannical government? Or would volunteers patrolling an area need to establish themselves as a militia first?

    In practice it would give ICE/Border patrol a excuse to kill us and/or our neighbors so even if we could it wouldn't be the best idea. As it is I've already spoken with some people about what it felt like for them to have ICE/BP pull a gun on them and threaten them for a while. All for the crime of following ICE/BP and recording their actions at a safe distance.
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