@pease : I think, since you quoted me, that churches always exist in a porous relationship with the communities they exist within, and different denominations have wildly different ideas about how that works.
Some churches see themselves as "gated communities," walled off from the communities they exist within. Other churches see themselves as expressions of their communities. Other churches see themselves as, to put it harshly, glorified social welfare agencies. Some churches - to use another cruel analogy - operate like businesses that seek to profit off of their host communities, like parasites. Some churches are like animals that just continue existing without properly understanding why or how, they just keep surviving, however they do, until they die.
There's always some separation to existing, in the same way that I could not exist on the ship if I were not able to separate my identity from "the ship" as a collective. At the same time, as I interface with the ship, I am honestly a part of the ship. A church in a culture must have some kind of separation from that culture, but also exists in a relationship with that culture.
I think "counter-cultural" is an interesting phrase. There are churches that are counter-cultural, though it varies according to culture. The church I'm in is very consonant with the local culture they're in, but certainly counter-cultural to the current administration of the USA. "Culture" is a tricky thing to tie down, especially in America.
Gluttony as "taking more than you share, especially when someone else lacks" is something I understand. That's something very different than obesity. Someone can be a glutton and not be overweight. Someone can be overweight and not engage in gluttony. You can be malnourished and carry a potbelly at the same time.
Hell, there's probably a deeper sin...pride? envy?...involved in staring at other people's perceived weaknesses to avoid taking responsibility for your own.
I agree the 7 D's aren't biblical, but they do make an interesting model if you handle them carefully. Handled carelessly, they're just as bad as the Bible, or a bottle of whiskey; and as Harper Williams wrote, you can see the wreckage from that up and down the street.
Lewis even talks about a kind of gluttony of delicacy and having to get what one wants, regardless of how it affects others, in the Screwtape Letters:
Glubose has this old woman well in hand. She is a positive terror to hostesses and servants. She is always turning from what has been offered her to say with a demure little sigh and a smile “Oh please, please... all I want is a cup of tea, weak but not too weak, and the teeniest weeniest bit of really crisp toast”. You see? Because what she wants is smaller and less costly than what has been set before her, she never recognizes as gluttony her determination to get what she wants, however troublesome it may be to others. At the very moment of indulging her appetite she believes that she is practicing temperance. In a crowded restaurant she gives a little scream at the plate which some overworked waitress has set before her and says, “Oh, that’s far, far too much! Take it away and bring me about a quarter of it”. If challenged, she would say she was doing this to avoid waste; in reality she does it because the particular shade of delicacy to which we have enslaved her is offended by the sight of more food than she happens to want.
It can be taken that way, but I no longer associate being fat with over indulgence. Too much is down to drugs. I put on pounds slowly while on one set of drugs (it was the sort that if you did a rigourous gym regime you could have a healthy weight but if not you put on weight but it was a real struggle to keep the routine with the drugs. There are far worse drugs for weight gain. Then coming off them and onto another drug that causes you to loose weight and lost it all in under a year. Both of these are side effects. How can I judge someone who is over weight as a glutton or lazy without knowing circumstance?
Equally someone who is as thin as a sparrow maybe a glutton. C.S. Lewis describes this in his Screwtape Letters where someones mother only wants a boiled egg and a piece of toast but the egg must be just right and the toast perfectly browned. Gluttony is being ruled by your appetite for the pleasure material things bring you.
Some churches see themselves as "gated communities," walled off from the communities they exist within. Other churches see themselves as expressions of their communities. Other churches see themselves as, to put it harshly, glorified social welfare agencies. Some churches - to use another cruel analogy - operate like businesses that seek to profit off of their host communities, like parasites. Some churches are like animals that just continue existing without properly understanding why or how, they just keep surviving, however they do, until they die.
I think there is one image that is missing. Growing up, I heard the church is an outpost. In the community, but not of the community. Certainly, fit the small church where I was raised. The town was 90% Mormon. Mormonism was very strong in town. We sought to present an alternative to the "Jesus opened the way of salvation, but you still have to earn it" motif we heard coming from the Mormons. Oh, the stories I could tell about this.
…But I think of enclosed community as something more like withdrawing from the gaze of the panopticon rather than withdrawing from humanity. In monastic spaces you are very much up close and personal with humanity!
Yes - that was part of the point I was making. Separateness from society is not equivalent to withdrawing from humanity - it can be the converse, if society itself becomes devoid of community. And it is is being devoid of community that I see as being an issue for the integrity of our human-ness.
I suppose I would say it is a specific type of community that I choosing to separate from society to belong to or rather to partially separate from society to participate in. Is it essential to Christian belief? no. Is it essential for where I am at present with my belief? yes. Those two things are not the same.
Let me explain my take on white martyrdom, I will leave the red out of it. I understand that as part of Baptismal vocation we are all called to some form of martyrdom but that those forms differ from person to person.…
Thanks, Jengie Jon. I'm not familiar with the language (of martyrdom) in this context, but I think I can see how it relates to what you are doing.
I wish I could figure out how to change my approach to social media so that I was not so dependent on it for human interaction. I want to try to get out and meet people more. Just speaking of community…
I feel like social media has somehow managed to combine being isolated with quasi-community in ways that are often extremely unhealthy. I’m not sure it’s the worst of both worlds but I’m not sure it isn’t…
Maybe there's a real-life person who knows your situation and might be able to help you plan?
I need more real-life people in my life. Once this semester is over I certainly need to go to the bars again. And I desperately wish I could meet the right guys in certain contexts, somehow...
Maybe there's a real-life person who knows your situation and might be able to help you plan?
I need more real-life people in my life. Once this semester is over I certainly need to go to the bars again. And I desperately wish I could meet the right guys in certain contexts, somehow...
Have you considered getting into the cosplay scene - you clearly love your comics and anime ? Similarly, you might want to try a table top role play club. There are some TTRPGS based on the Marvel universe - an activity based social space can really take the pressure off.
Maybe there's a real-life person who knows your situation and might be able to help you plan?
I need more real-life people in my life. Once this semester is over I certainly need to go to the bars again. And I desperately wish I could meet the right guys in certain contexts, somehow...
Have you considered getting into the cosplay scene - you clearly love your comics and anime ? Similarly, you might want to try a table top role play club. There are some TTRPGS based on the Marvel universe - an activity based social space can really take the pressure off.
Not quite ready for cosplay (heh, except for the "cosplay" I'd like to do again at the relevant venues, but that's not really cosplay). Board games would be good. The level of involvement required for RPGs (I used to be massively into what was then called AD&D, Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, when there was only "First Edition" and "Basic," in junior high and high school, starting in 1980) may not quite be for me right now. Board games, though, absolutely.
I cannot wait for this semester to end in the next couple of weeks!! (Though I need to make sure I have enough classes to make it through summer--prayers welcome...)
There are also local bear and leather clubs and groups I need to get more involved in, definitely.
I meet a group of friends weekly when our game is up and running every Monday night for D&D - it’s hosted at my house which does my life ridiculously easy (we’ve been running board games when our DMs been in downtime). I am probably the oldest, it we did used to have a gent older than me till he moved down south, no children though.
I started doing this years ago for the sake of my mental health, I tend to become socially isolated when my mood is low and having a commitment helped me avoid that.
[Cloistered tangent]
I really enjoyed this from a group of Canadian nuns. It was done during the pandemic during a viral dance challenge relating to he Zulu song Jerusalema - but I have only just tripped over the phenomena on YouTube. I recommend reading the comments.
[/Cloistered tangent]
I meet a group of friends weekly when our game is up and running every Monday night for D&D - it’s hosted at my house which does my life ridiculously easy (we’ve been running board games when our DMs been in downtime). I am probably the oldest, it we did used to have a gent older than me till he moved down south, no children though.
I started doing this years ago for the sake of my mental health, I tend to become socially isolated when my mood is low and having a commitment helped me avoid that.
Oh, I definitely want to have a regular habit at least of getting together with people for things. Role-playing games specifically, at least the kind where you’re playing a specific character (and having to actually role-play, not just say “I cast such-and-such”) for months or years, I don’t think that’s something that I really want to get back into for all sorts of reasons.
I've also noticed my social life has taken a hit since pulling off facebook, and my mental health too. One reason I've posted more here, come to think of it. Hell, if folks follow my posting they can probably also follow my mental health. Yippee!
Just picking up the friends I have helps. Church helps. The lack of proper "third spaces" in the world is truly a challenge.
I've been a big D&D geek in the past, and I still have an online group I play with, but I can get reasons for avoidance. Ordinary board games can help too. Really, any social activity that distracts people from the awkwardness of existing can help facilitate some kind of conversation or interaction.
Comments
Some churches see themselves as "gated communities," walled off from the communities they exist within. Other churches see themselves as expressions of their communities. Other churches see themselves as, to put it harshly, glorified social welfare agencies. Some churches - to use another cruel analogy - operate like businesses that seek to profit off of their host communities, like parasites. Some churches are like animals that just continue existing without properly understanding why or how, they just keep surviving, however they do, until they die.
Each church is a community within a larger community and every single one does it in their own peculiar way. It's complex. There's an old book about it called "Christ and Culture" by H. Richard Niebuhr, if you're interested.
There's always some separation to existing, in the same way that I could not exist on the ship if I were not able to separate my identity from "the ship" as a collective. At the same time, as I interface with the ship, I am honestly a part of the ship. A church in a culture must have some kind of separation from that culture, but also exists in a relationship with that culture.
I think "counter-cultural" is an interesting phrase. There are churches that are counter-cultural, though it varies according to culture. The church I'm in is very consonant with the local culture they're in, but certainly counter-cultural to the current administration of the USA. "Culture" is a tricky thing to tie down, especially in America.
Hell, there's probably a deeper sin...pride? envy?...involved in staring at other people's perceived weaknesses to avoid taking responsibility for your own.
I agree the 7 D's aren't biblical, but they do make an interesting model if you handle them carefully. Handled carelessly, they're just as bad as the Bible, or a bottle of whiskey; and as Harper Williams wrote, you can see the wreckage from that up and down the street.
More here:
http://www.sisterdaughtermotherwife.com/p/gluttony-excerpt-from-cs-lewis.html?m=1
Equally someone who is as thin as a sparrow maybe a glutton. C.S. Lewis describes this in his Screwtape Letters where someones mother only wants a boiled egg and a piece of toast but the egg must be just right and the toast perfectly browned. Gluttony is being ruled by your appetite for the pleasure material things bring you.
I think there is one image that is missing. Growing up, I heard the church is an outpost. In the community, but not of the community. Certainly, fit the small church where I was raised. The town was 90% Mormon. Mormonism was very strong in town. We sought to present an alternative to the "Jesus opened the way of salvation, but you still have to earn it" motif we heard coming from the Mormons. Oh, the stories I could tell about this.
Thanks, Jengie Jon. I'm not familiar with the language (of martyrdom) in this context, but I think I can see how it relates to what you are doing.
I feel like social media has somehow managed to combine being isolated with quasi-community in ways that are often extremely unhealthy. I’m not sure it’s the worst of both worlds but I’m not sure it isn’t…
I need more real-life people in my life. Once this semester is over I certainly need to go to the bars again. And I desperately wish I could meet the right guys in certain contexts, somehow...
If that works for you, then go for it.
Have you considered getting into the cosplay scene - you clearly love your comics and anime ? Similarly, you might want to try a table top role play club. There are some TTRPGS based on the Marvel universe - an activity based social space can really take the pressure off.
Not quite ready for cosplay (heh, except for the "cosplay" I'd like to do again at the relevant venues, but that's not really cosplay). Board games would be good. The level of involvement required for RPGs (I used to be massively into what was then called AD&D, Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, when there was only "First Edition" and "Basic," in junior high and high school, starting in 1980) may not quite be for me right now. Board games, though, absolutely.
I cannot wait for this semester to end in the next couple of weeks!! (Though I need to make sure I have enough classes to make it through summer--prayers welcome...)
There are also local bear and leather clubs and groups I need to get more involved in, definitely.
I started doing this years ago for the sake of my mental health, I tend to become socially isolated when my mood is low and having a commitment helped me avoid that.
I really enjoyed this from a group of Canadian nuns. It was done during the pandemic during a viral dance challenge relating to he Zulu song Jerusalema - but I have only just tripped over the phenomena on YouTube. I recommend reading the comments.
[/Cloistered tangent]
Oh, I definitely want to have a regular habit at least of getting together with people for things. Role-playing games specifically, at least the kind where you’re playing a specific character (and having to actually role-play, not just say “I cast such-and-such”) for months or years, I don’t think that’s something that I really want to get back into for all sorts of reasons.
Just picking up the friends I have helps. Church helps. The lack of proper "third spaces" in the world is truly a challenge.
I've been a big D&D geek in the past, and I still have an online group I play with, but I can get reasons for avoidance. Ordinary board games can help too. Really, any social activity that distracts people from the awkwardness of existing can help facilitate some kind of conversation or interaction.