Catechesis. Work cut out?
Gamma Gamaliel
Shipmate
in Purgatory
I listened to the first part of Giles Fraser's 3-part series Church Going on BBC Radio 4.
He's an Anglican cleric, broadcaster and columnist of 'liberal catholic' persuasion.
The series will examine the state of church attendance, decline and pockets of growth in the UK today.
As part of the programme he visited his alma mater of Ripon College, Cuddesdon near Oxford. He was surprised to hear how few full-time students there are now and even more surprised when the Principal told him she'd known students come in who weren't even aware that there was only one God in Christianity.
This was nothing new, she claimed. When she did her own training there was someone who hadn't heard of Moses and someone who thought Martin Luther was black.
I've come across some wild and woolly ideas from enquirers and catechumens in our parish but this took me by surprise, I must admit.
The Principal was quite philosophical. This was how it is. Besides, there are opportunities if people are coming in with no 'baggage.'
Obstacle or opportunity?
Does this reflect the situation where you are and within your church, denomination or tradition?
I know US Shipmates have more experience of adult Sunday school and similar initiatives that are less common here in the UK. But even in the US I imagine that general 'religious knowledge' is not what it was.
Thoughts?
He's an Anglican cleric, broadcaster and columnist of 'liberal catholic' persuasion.
The series will examine the state of church attendance, decline and pockets of growth in the UK today.
As part of the programme he visited his alma mater of Ripon College, Cuddesdon near Oxford. He was surprised to hear how few full-time students there are now and even more surprised when the Principal told him she'd known students come in who weren't even aware that there was only one God in Christianity.
This was nothing new, she claimed. When she did her own training there was someone who hadn't heard of Moses and someone who thought Martin Luther was black.
I've come across some wild and woolly ideas from enquirers and catechumens in our parish but this took me by surprise, I must admit.
The Principal was quite philosophical. This was how it is. Besides, there are opportunities if people are coming in with no 'baggage.'
Obstacle or opportunity?
Does this reflect the situation where you are and within your church, denomination or tradition?
I know US Shipmates have more experience of adult Sunday school and similar initiatives that are less common here in the UK. But even in the US I imagine that general 'religious knowledge' is not what it was.
Thoughts?
Comments
#1 Cnihtlet is a current student at a US liberal arts college, and has been continually shocked at the low level of what I'd call general knowledge in their classmates. This includes, but is by no means limited to, basic knowledge of Christian stories.
I graduated from a Canadian Catholic school in the mid-90s, but our social-studies curriculum followed the provincial standard, using a textbook written for public schools in the US. And we were certainly taught about Martin Luther and what he did and what his opinions were.
I'm assuming this is taught in the UK as well, and that student just forgot it, as we all forget things from our school days. Though I'm surprised it's something that would be forgotten by someone inclined toward a career in the Christian clergy.
As a result, he developed a curriculum that focused on apologetics of the faith.
I just looked. There are several apologetics type Sunday School curriculums out there now.
Not really - Luther doesn't really feature in the history-as-taught of the English Reformation (and probably not the Scottish either, because Calvin and Knox are the key figures) as the focus is on the dynastic difficulties of the Tudors. If we were taught about Luther it was likely a quarter page sidebar in the textbook.
He is, however, theologically liberal.
In citing him here I'm not making any value judgement on his political views, whatever they might be.
I've read his columns from time to time and heard him on The Moral Maze. Other than that he's not on my radar very much.
If someone else was presenting the new Radio 4 series about church attendance in the UK I'd be quoting them. It's not an endorsement.
Back to the point ...
Yes, I'm generally shocked at the low level of 'general knowledge' I encounter these days ... although my own level of general scientific knowledge is pretty poor.
I was walking through The Louvre a few years ago and passed some young Americans in front of a Renaissance painting of David and Goliath.
'Say, there's a little guy beating up a big guy ...'
They didn't even recognise the characters.
I wouldn't have been so surprised if they were British. I know the Bible Belt doesn't extend all over the States but my impression would be that general awareness of Bible stories might be higher than it is here. It was certainly higher here when I was growing up.
@Aravis, I was surprised to hear this from Cuddesdon too. But then, we shouldn't take these things for granted.
Could you tell me why you think he is a bigot? Not a rant, please, just a list of his beliefs of sayings that justify your view.
Yet he writes (used to write?) for the Guardian. Oh dear!
He's a vocal transphobe and genocide apologist.
Golly! I didn't know. Oh dear. I remember GF from years ago on Radio 4, so I'm shocked he has so changed.
End of tangent, please?
Okay, thanks. But I'm wondering how a textbook would explain the existence of the Reformation in the first place, without mentioning Luther.
As it was taught to us, Luther was important because he declared salvation to be between the individual and God, and then culture and politics took it from there.
Is it possible he was talking about mature entrants who may have had another career (putting two and two together from the comment about full time students) ?
I suspect the Ship is heavy with people who like to "know stuff" - and given the decline in reading more and more prospective clergy come at it from a lifetime of not really engaging with the world in this way.
That actually strikes me as something that somebody would say who DOES know the story, and was being humorously bathetic in his description of it.
I was also gonna say that most renditions of David and Goliath that I've seen don't portray anything that a newcomer to the imagery would characterize as "beating up". The first page of Google images shows mostly David and Goliath facing off before the shot is fired, but a deeper dive into more violent imagery does get you a few of Goliath on the ground, looking seriously injured.
Just to be clear, I don't doubt that the person you overheard might actually not have known the David and Goliath story. Obviously, you were there and could pick up the tone of voice, whereas I was not.
Many moons ago!
Obviously, Luther the guy himself would only figure at the beginning of a narrative about the Reformation, but I'm surprised that a book called Guide to the Reformation presented him in a way that could be described as "mentioned in passing".
Then again, my perception of British awareness of the Reformation might be overly influenced by the Yorkshire protestant's monologue in Monty Python's Meaning of Life, where he attributes his right to wear a condom directly to the 95 Theses. Obviously, that was hyperbole, but I think I assumed it reflected the general knowledge.
Yes. I think this is right.
I've heard various comments from RCs and Anglicans about allegedly low standards from mature candidates for ordination, some quite misogynist in tone - 'they are even taking gym mistresses!'
Without eliding that issue, I think there are people coming forward from what we might call 'non-traditional' backgrounds. Anglican clergy used to predominantly come from more 'Establishment' backgrounds, public schools, Oxbridge etc.
That's been changing for some time and for the better. As you say, there's also been a decline in reading around subjects.
And yes, @stetson I was there and picked up the tone of voice. That said, Goliath was depicted prone with David slicing his head off. He did have a slingshot embedded in his forehead. If he'd been stood up with David slinging a stone at him they may have recognised the story of course.
@Jane R - yes, I did history at was then O'level and A'Level. Luther, Calvin and indeed Zwingli were all featured and not just in passing.
I suspect they aren't now.
Away from the ordination training issue, in my own circles we are finding that some enquirers are well up on spats between various bishops and jurisdictions because they've picked it up online (from 'Interdox' keyboard warriors), but haven't the foggiest notion of any theology apart from polemics against the 'West' or 'the Orientals' or this, that or the other group or theologian.
A friend in a parish in the Greek archdiocese told me about a visitor who grilled him for a considerable length of time about differences or disagreements between this, that or the other jurisdiction and views about particular theologians seen as a bit fringe or controversial.
At length, the visitor paused and asked, 'So who is this Lazarus we've been commemorating in the service today?'
I think I've mentioned before that my brother knew an old lady in South Wales who thought that her Baptist chapel was founded by John the Baptist.
He also knew another old lady in an Anglican parish who thought that John the Baptist wrote the New Testament.
An Anglican ordinand recently told me that a long-standing reader in her parish thought that the epistle to the Romans was written by someone called 'Romans.'
These were all people who'd grown in church and attended for years.
This isn't just a newbie thing.
The social studies class where we learned about Luther was just the standard class that average-level students were expected to take.
Mind you, we were studying the Reformation within the context of its influence on western society in general, not any one specific country. The impression I'm getting here is that in the UK, it's taught in relation to British history?
Calvin also got a bit of attention in our curriculum as well, I think connected with the protestant work ethic. Erasmus, if he was mentioned at all, woulda been just in passing.
If you recall the scene in full, however, the proud Protestant's wife didn't know they were Protestants, much less knew anything about Luther.
An English Reformation history may mention Luther, but it's likely to be along the lines of "he didn't like the way the Catholic Church was run, particularly the sale of indulgences". It doesn't focus on sola fide et al because the English Reformation wasn't about that - it was about who had authority over the church in England.
She was interviewed on Fraser's programme.
At O'Level there wouldn't have been so much detail of course. Our O'Level syllabus covered the Treaty of Versailles, the Depression and New Deal, Stalin, Hitler and Mussolini.
Yes. I was referring to Fraser rather the Principal.
I wonder if she knew who John the Baptist was, but thought he had made a detour up to the isles at some point in his life, like baby Jesus in Glastonbury, or if she really had no clue at all.
Right. Though I think that might have reflected the better education of the husband relative to the wife in whatever era that was?
(A recurring gag in Python is people implausibly discussing things that are far above their education levels, but I think I always took that scene to reflect stuff that a succesful protestant-shopkeeper-type might actually know, though he might not express it such a manner.)
Well, as I learned it, Luther's objection to indulgences was the starting point of his eventual adoption of sola fides. And I assume most historians would say that the sociopolitical characteristics of the English were altered by the ultimate victors being the people closer to Luther's position than to Rome's(*).
(*) Cue contingent of high-candle Anglican Shipmates claiming that they're actually Catholic.
'Noddy's Guide to...' is used in British English to describe something that's been dumbed down (for an audience that you intend to patronise).
They are taught about James VI and I and the gunpowder plot, but that's much later. I only know this because my daughter (at the age of 10) was the only person in her class in favour of religious freedom, when the teacher asked if James was right to ban Catholics. Which made me very proud (but also worried about her classmates).
Thanks. I wasn't aware of that.
However, when I did my history degree and masters as a mature student, the European origins of the Reformation were prominent.
I do think it's unhelpful to sneer at people for not knowing things that they have never had the opportunity to learn. We all have expert knowledge about some things and are completely ignorant of others. I certainly learned that when I was invited to join some friends for a pub quiz: most of it was about celebrities, culture and sport and my knowledge was completely useless until we got to the science round (which was surprising, because I only did science to GCSE/O level). Our team came last.
Point of information, though James VI of Scotland, Ist of England, didn't 'ban' Catholics.
Restrictions on RCs were already in place. What was coming before Parliament were measures to reinforce and enforce those restrictions and ratchet them up to a greater extent.
Hence the Gunpowder Plot.
But yes, the reaction of your daughter's classmates is worrying.
On 'Noddy's Guides' and as a gratuitously Carry On style double-entendre aside, I knew a bloke who'd been a maths teacher. The maths text book at that time was written by a bloke called Nobbs.
Imagine the chaos when a bunch of lads were larking about at the back of the class at the beginning of a lesson when he shouted, 'Get your Nobbs out!'
By "us", do you mean Anglicans, or protestants(so-called) in general?
I completely agree. The only exception is when someone talks about a topic in a combative or pompous manner, and then gets the facts wrong. But even then, I'd try to do it in a way that didn't imply contempt for everyone lacking the relevant knowledge, just the person I was arguing with, eg. "Well, for a guy who seems to know all about what's wrong with Canada, it's strange you can't even get the capital city right."
One of the last timed I played trivia-night at a bar, my three team-mates all agreed about the answer to one particular question(about serial killers), but I told them I was absolutely certain they were wrong, and convinced them to go with my prefered answer. You can guess how that ended up.
Well, I personally never studied Latin at school, and I don't recognize every phrase that gets used here. But for the most part, I tend to think of most Latin phrases I see or hear as having been domesticated into everyday English, in the manner of other foreign phrases, eg. "My boss is the uber-jerk." And if I don't know a given phrase, I'm usually happy to look it up.
As for the Ship being the most classist forum one has been on, MAYBE inadvertantly, with people assuming everyone else has been taught the same things they were, but as far as aggressive snobbery goes, nowhere near the worst, in my experience.
I'm not at all surprised at the lack of religious knowledge in people applying for ordination. It might be that other qualities are more desirable at that stage. And they are there to learn the theory, after all. I would imagine that the level of Christian knowledge among the general populace is only marginally better than their knowledge of quantum physics.
@Heavenlyannie - I grew up in a council house in South Wales and we did a tiny bit of Latin at my bog-standard comprehensive school. Probably about the same amount as we did Welsh, but I didn't do exams in either.
I don't speak Welsh and I don’t speak Latin. I know some phrases in both languages which I've picked up somewhere or other over the years.
I'm not sure how 'classist' these boards are but generally most Shipmates are educated to university level and as @chrisstiles says up thread are the sort of people who like looking things up.
That's not necessarily a 'class' thing but I can understand what you are getting at. I didn't have a particularly deprived background apart from a few years after my parents split up, and by and large my family on both sides had been upwardly mobile for a few generations - farm labourers to tin-plate workers to shop keepers, ministers and school teachers, a timber yard manager, draughtsmen ...
Or on the other side 'respectable working class' dipping into extreme poverty but with a shot-gun marriage to a 'boss's daughter' fallen on hard times.
I'm sure your childhood on a Luton council estate was more working class than my upbringing.
There was a time when council housing was more demographically varied than 'social housing' tends to be now.
Heck, the estate I grew up on is very run down now in a way it never was when I lived there.
Yes, I'm middle class and I don’t pretend to be anything else. Yes, I've been treated as an oik a time or two when I was younger because I had a pronounced 'Valleys' accent and some of my late wife's relatives were snooty towards me at first - most were posher than me.
But overall I've not had to put up with much other than a few comments from trendy lefty 'Hampstead socialists' at university, a few disapproving comments from posh people now and then and those tiresome digs about sheep.
On the whole, I'd say the Ship is predominantly middle class, white collar and professional with a largely liberal/left-leaning orientation.
There are a few exceptions.
I think making training for ministry more accessible (in many ways) is important, and the class profile of ordinands is also changing. People are coming to ordination from a wider variety of backgrounds, and this is a good thing. However, I do think that studying church history is an important thing for ordinands to do, because you can't really understand anything without understanding history.
For what it's worth, for GCSE history we did the History of Medicine, Northern Ireland and The Troubles, Weimar Germany, and the Holocaust. I think that's it? History of Medicine stands out as a favourite within that. I attempted A Levels twice - the first time I left midway through the first year because I left home, but I remember covering the history of suffrage in the UK and the Boer Wars. Second time I specifically did Early Modern History at A Level so did the Wars of the Roses, Early Modern Spain, and Tudor Foreign Policy. However, because of the whole Being Homeless thing I have two Es at A Level and no degree - I've just always been autistic about history and especially church history, so I'm mostly self-taught. I'm from a working-class background where my parents don't have degrees but always had an interest in history, especially natural history and Roman Britain.
Though the phenomena I'm thinking about is the much more generational - specifically the drop in reading among Gen Z
There's a separate phenomena of the aggressive anti-intellectualism, but that tends to be class rather than age specific (most often middle class).