The ELCA unofficially considers itself a progressive organization, yet 52% of its members voted for Trump. A major part of that group were rural members who, frankly, were sold a bill of goods with Trump promising things he could not deliver. It will be interesting to see if there is some shifting in the mid terms.
An emphasis on personal responsibility doesn’t necessarily go along with a lack of compassion, or contempt for the disadvantaged. The politics of selfishness are another matter.
For me the issue is the gulf between the words "personal responsibility", and what is really being said when some people use those words. For instance, I wouldn't really see the kind of moral personal responsibility in the Gospels as being related to what politicians are saying when they use the phrase. There isn't an issue with actual personal responsibility, just what the phrase is used as shorthand for.
I agree with you and others who note that is often shorthand. A criticism of others rather than a finger pointing at oneself.
It’s also right to say that a sense of personal responsibility about one’s own attitudes and behaviour is a good thing.
I believe in both personal and social responsibility. There are some good and necessary responsibilities which can only be exercised by governments or the powers that be. Benign and caring individual actions are not enough in themselves. But they do help.
In the US, I think fear plays into it. They've got the notion that Christianity is a culture and that culture is threatened by "outsiders" who aren't properly Christian. So right wing politics tells them it'll protect them from those outsiders or compel them to become "Christian" in the proper way.
Now, I think that kind of attitude is anti-Christ, but such folks don't ask the likes of me.
In the US, I think fear plays into it. They've got the notion that Christianity is a culture and that culture is threatened by "outsiders" who aren't properly Christian. So right wing politics tells them it'll protect them from those outsiders or compel them to become "Christian" in the proper way.
Now, I think that kind of attitude is anti-Christ, but such folks don't ask the likes of me.
I'm not sure about this. Among the MAGA types cheering on the ICE deportations, are there are a lot who only want the non-Christians out, and would be disquieted if it were pointed out that at least some of the deportees are Christians?
Maybe there are a few old school know-nothings who would like it that Latin American RCs are being kicked out en masse, but even then, if a given MAGA protestant is cool with JD Vance being a heartbeat away from the presidency, I can't imagine that sectarian purity is a huge motivator for his xenophobia. I'd see chauvinistic nationalism as the more pertinent influence.
In the US, I think fear plays into it. They've got the notion that Christianity is a culture and that culture is threatened by "outsiders" who aren't properly Christian. So right wing politics tells them it'll protect them from those outsiders or compel them to become "Christian" in the proper way.
Now, I think that kind of attitude is anti-Christ, but such folks don't ask the likes of me.
I'm not sure about this. Among the MAGA types cheering on the ICE deportations, are there are a lot who only want the non-Christians out, and would be disquieted if it were pointed out that at least some of the deportees are Christians?
Maybe there are a few old school know-nothings who would like it that Latin American RCs are being kicked out en masse, but even then, if a given MAGA protestant is cool with JD Vance being a heartbeat away from the presidency, I can't imagine that sectarian purity is a huge motivator for his xenophobia. I'd see chauvinistic nationalism as the more pertinent influence.
Also a lot of Latino RCs are themselves Republican voters, especially men. There are for sure those Dominionists that would welcome every RC in the US being deported, but they would equally welcome liberal Protestants and Mormons being deported.
I am not a historian but it seems to me that at some point Protestant Christianity became increasingly individualistic and the legacy of that is the feeling that (financial) consequences flow directly from actions, and therefore a bad financial situation is evidence of poor planning. Right-wing nationalism plays into this false narrative and so Christianity became and easy overlay for the right.
Which is obviously ironic in that Protestant Christianity also had strong influences on the left where the sense of strong community action inspired the trade/labour unions and socialism.
If one encourages the idea of an estoteric message whereby 90 or even 99% of everyone else in the community is in some sense "dammed" then it becomes easier to accept scapegoating.
I do not think this is solely about Christianity, it seems like there's a similar pattern in various other religions too, it just seems like this has been the pattern in Western Europe.
What I find interesting, which I suppose is really a part of human human nature, is how people can say they believe one thing whilst obviously acting in another.
Both Christianity and Islam have some kind of belief of belonging to a wider family that is more important than nationalities and cultural backgrounds. At the same time this does not seem to resonate in terms of actually seeing other people as brethren even when they are from the same faith.
As a follower of Jesus I cannot see how right leaning people can do so and still follow Jesus. To me the Left more typifies what Jesus taught and his actions. I know several Christians who vote Conservative here in the UK but cannot see how that lines up with Jesus’ teaching.
Sorry. No. I do not think there is much congruence at all between following Jesus and any political ideology. Christians have had to live under all sorts of different political regimes over the centuries, a few not too bad, many pretty mediocre, and some very unpleasant indeed. Some in the latter category have been on the right, some on the left and some just very unpleasant without fitting that particular way of categorising them.
Most of our brothers and sisters have lived, and many still do live, in societies where they can have next to no influence on the regime to which they are subject, and where the best advice - overwhelmingly supported by the New Testament - is to keep your head down, do your best to live a Christian life under the circumstances and love your brothers and sisters.
If you live in the present day UK, you have some freedom to choose. There are several parties one can grit one's teeth and support up to a point. It would be much harder to support any of them unequivocally and without some reservations. Indeed, saying that 'Christians have a duty to do so' looks a bit like the third temptation to me.
There are also parties where I would say that what they advocate and the apparent ethical absence in the moral calibre of their key players is so incompatible with what the Christian faith stands for that a Christian should be asking themselves whether they should even vote for their candidates, yet alone support their party. That, though, is much more to do with their lack of ethical calibre than whether they are left or right.
And - and this is important - that one or some parties rule themselves out is not God's endorsement of any of the others.
In the US, I think fear plays into it. They've got the notion that Christianity is a culture and that culture is threatened by "outsiders" who aren't properly Christian. So right wing politics tells them it'll protect them from those outsiders or compel them to become "Christian" in the proper way.
Now, I think that kind of attitude is anti-Christ, but such folks don't ask the likes of me.
I'm not sure about this. Among the MAGA types cheering on the ICE deportations, are there are a lot who only want the non-Christians out, and would be disquieted if it were pointed out that at least some of the deportees are Christians?
Maybe there are a few old school know-nothings who would like it that Latin American RCs are being kicked out en masse, but even then, if a given MAGA protestant is cool with JD Vance being a heartbeat away from the presidency, I can't imagine that sectarian purity is a huge motivator for his xenophobia. I'd see chauvinistic nationalism as the more pertinent influence.
Also a lot of Latino RCs are themselves Republican voters, especially men. There are for sure those Dominionists that would welcome every RC in the US being deported, but they would equally welcome liberal Protestants and Mormons being deported.
ABC has now reported that Jill Biden says she prays to her dead son Beau. Doubtless something for the Reconstructionists to get excited about, but a practice I can 100% guarantee you takes place among Catholic Republicans as well. And a good chunk of the semi-churched Trump-bible demographic wouldn't see a problem either, and might even think it sounds sweet.
In the US, I think fear plays into it. They've got the notion that Christianity is a culture and that culture is threatened by "outsiders" who aren't properly Christian. So right wing politics tells them it'll protect them from those outsiders or compel them to become "Christian" in the proper way.
Now, I think that kind of attitude is anti-Christ, but such folks don't ask the likes of me.
I'm not sure about this. Among the MAGA types cheering on the ICE deportations, are there are a lot who only want the non-Christians out, and would be disquieted if it were pointed out that at least some of the deportees are Christians?
Maybe there are a few old school know-nothings who would like it that Latin American RCs are being kicked out en masse, but even then, if a given MAGA protestant is cool with JD Vance being a heartbeat away from the presidency, I can't imagine that sectarian purity is a huge motivator for his xenophobia. I'd see chauvinistic nationalism as the more pertinent influence.
Also a lot of Latino RCs are themselves Republican voters, especially men. There are for sure those Dominionists that would welcome every RC in the US being deported, but they would equally welcome liberal Protestants and Mormons being deported.
ABC has now reported that Jill Biden says she prays to her dead son Beau. Doubtless something for the Reconstructionists to get excited about, but a practice I can 100% guarantee you takes place among Catholic Republicans as well. And a good chunk of the semi-churched Trump-bible demographic wouldn't see a problem either, and might even think it sounds sweet.
Comments
I agree with you and others who note that is often shorthand. A criticism of others rather than a finger pointing at oneself.
It’s also right to say that a sense of personal responsibility about one’s own attitudes and behaviour is a good thing.
I believe in both personal and social responsibility. There are some good and necessary responsibilities which can only be exercised by governments or the powers that be. Benign and caring individual actions are not enough in themselves. But they do help.
Yes I am dyslexic so do know how to spell it. It is just letters run around
Well said.
I'm not sure about this. Among the MAGA types cheering on the ICE deportations, are there are a lot who only want the non-Christians out, and would be disquieted if it were pointed out that at least some of the deportees are Christians?
Maybe there are a few old school know-nothings who would like it that Latin American RCs are being kicked out en masse, but even then, if a given MAGA protestant is cool with JD Vance being a heartbeat away from the presidency, I can't imagine that sectarian purity is a huge motivator for his xenophobia. I'd see chauvinistic nationalism as the more pertinent influence.
Also a lot of Latino RCs are themselves Republican voters, especially men. There are for sure those Dominionists that would welcome every RC in the US being deported, but they would equally welcome liberal Protestants and Mormons being deported.
I don't know any Welsh besides "ach y fi" so I was just following your spelling, oops!
Which is obviously ironic in that Protestant Christianity also had strong influences on the left where the sense of strong community action inspired the trade/labour unions and socialism.
If one encourages the idea of an estoteric message whereby 90 or even 99% of everyone else in the community is in some sense "dammed" then it becomes easier to accept scapegoating.
I do not think this is solely about Christianity, it seems like there's a similar pattern in various other religions too, it just seems like this has been the pattern in Western Europe.
Both Christianity and Islam have some kind of belief of belonging to a wider family that is more important than nationalities and cultural backgrounds. At the same time this does not seem to resonate in terms of actually seeing other people as brethren even when they are from the same faith.
How about
Ach y fi! Mochyn mawr!!
(Big pig!)
Or ach y fi y mochyn!
Mind you often used by people who like nothing better than a ham sandwich!! (sic!)
It can tend towards highly close-knit communities that can become cliquey if they aren't careful, though.
The same can happen to Orthodox parishes in 'the diaspora'.
Most of our brothers and sisters have lived, and many still do live, in societies where they can have next to no influence on the regime to which they are subject, and where the best advice - overwhelmingly supported by the New Testament - is to keep your head down, do your best to live a Christian life under the circumstances and love your brothers and sisters.
If you live in the present day UK, you have some freedom to choose. There are several parties one can grit one's teeth and support up to a point. It would be much harder to support any of them unequivocally and without some reservations. Indeed, saying that 'Christians have a duty to do so' looks a bit like the third temptation to me.
There are also parties where I would say that what they advocate and the apparent ethical absence in the moral calibre of their key players is so incompatible with what the Christian faith stands for that a Christian should be asking themselves whether they should even vote for their candidates, yet alone support their party. That, though, is much more to do with their lack of ethical calibre than whether they are left or right.
And - and this is important - that one or some parties rule themselves out is not God's endorsement of any of the others.
ABC has now reported that Jill Biden says she prays to her dead son Beau. Doubtless something for the Reconstructionists to get excited about, but a practice I can 100% guarantee you takes place among Catholic Republicans as well. And a good chunk of the semi-churched Trump-bible demographic wouldn't see a problem either, and might even think it sounds sweet.
I mean, sure? My comment was about Dominionists.