Organist, if the family could get back to the wake in 25 minutes here, we wouldn't have a problem. Here the round trip is about an hour, in which time people have left the wake.
By the way, I'm beginning to come across people who don't like the word "wake" because it's too gloomy. This has surprised me (to me it suggests a wild Irish party). Have the rest of you found this too?
We manage it through careful choreography. Coffin is asperged then leaves church while rest of congregation listen to music chosen for purpose; then usually some final prayers, possibly a hymn, blessing before they leave for the Wake.
Meanwhile at the crem it is just 1 prayer and committal, no frills.
In theory it should be a minimum of 40 minutes but ending the church service in a measured way, and the walk to our hall - or the pub next door - where most Wakes are held makes it work. But yes, I realise we're lucky. And most of our funerals are still burials, if the deceased lived in the parish, because around here a burial costs less than a third of the cost of a cremation.
Here it's not so much cost as space. All my churchyards are full, unless you reserved a space years ago. It's tricky as some regular worshippers don't like cremation, and some reserved spots may be for folk who've moved away and died elsewhere. We have no way of checking.
Here it is usually called "the Tea!" But while it may begins with tea and soup, it usually ends with more like your idea of a wake...
It was 'the Tea' around where I grew up, but it was 'the Wake' in my mother's family due to Irish ancestry. Thanks to Methodist influence they can be totally sober affairs, but there is also the back room of the pub variety which is handy if you need a pint after the proceedings but they still tend to be fairly. We tend to get bottle out at weddings and funerals; somethings cannot be done properly strictly sober!
Here, such post funeral events generally happen either at the church or at the family home. If called anything, it’s called a reception, because it’s where the family receives those who came to the funeral. And that’s how it’s often phrased—“the family will receive in the church hall following the service.”
If on an evening before the day of the funeral, it’s referred to a “visitation.” Visitations generally happen at the funeral home.
There are very few church funerals here, almost all being at a crematorium/cemetery. Most of those are conducted by a civil celebrant. The crematoria have function rooms attached and provide catering for drinks, morning or afternoon tea etc.
My Godmother and her husband both had a Requiem Mass in the church, done by someone who didn't really know what they were doing, as the church had gone down the candle since they were last well enough to be active there, followed by the wake, during the course of which the coffin was taken to the local crem on its own as their churchyard is now internment of ashes only. Except in his case it snowed really heavily the night before after the coffin was received into church. So everyone turned up in wellies and the coffin ended up waiting several days in a side chapel until the weather was better.
I know a few Lutheran pastors who did their vicarage up in MinneSOta, and Nor' DaKOta, and they all seem to have a frozen ground story or three to tell! One of them his aunt died in January, and they had the service, but it was March before they could actually bury her, the ground was so frozen. I don't know whether he was having me on, but it sounds plausible.
Reserved spots here have to be by (paid for) faculty. Nothing else counts legally.
Yes, that's the same here. But we still have no idea where people are if they've moved away.
Maybe you can find a parishioner who’s happy to do a little sleuthing. It’s surprisingly easy to trace people these days. They could begin with some of the older faculties.
Reserved spots here have to be by (paid for) faculty. Nothing else counts legally.
Yes, that's the same here. But we still have no idea where people are if they've moved away.
Maybe you can find a parishioner who’s happy to do a little sleuthing. It’s surprisingly easy to trace people these days. They could begin with some of the older faculties.
I have a vague memory of reading that in CofE churchyards grave reservation faculties only lasted for 30 years?
Many years ago the vicar of a parish in the upper Thames valley near Cirencester, a flat boggy area where there is a high water table and a lot of gravel pits, told me that for burials in winter, they put stones in the coffins as otherwise, when it was time to lower the deceased into their grave, mourners found it disconcerting if they floated rather than descended.
In my circles, incidentally, the "wake" (which I too saw as a wild Irish shindig) is increasingly referred to as the "Aftermatch Function" or AMF, a term borrowed from sports, whose ecclesiastical applications I solemnly swear I initiated in Australia in the late-1980s. But I'm not necessarily able to provide solid etymological evidence, sadly.
Re, the bell after the priest's communion, it was not originally to tell people to come to Communion.
It was traditional in the RC church for the authorities regularly to remind people to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days. Then the question arose as to how much of the Mass one should attend to fulfil the obligation. Generally it was accepted that the Mass of the Catchumens/Liturgy of the Word could be missed BUT the Mass of the Faithful/Liturgy of the Eucharist should on no account be missed.
The essential parts here were/are : the offering of the bread and wine, the consecration of the bread and wine, the offering of the Body and Blood of Christ to the Eternal Father and the reception of the element by the priest,who acted both 'in persona Christi' and as the representative of the community.
It is virtually universal in the RC church for a bell to be rung at the beginning of Mass and the bell rung after the priest's communion was (in pre Vatican 2 days ) the sign that the obligation to attend Mass had now been fulfilled.
It is virtually universal in the RC church for a bell to be rung at the beginning of Mass and the bell rung after the priest's communion was (in pre Vatican 2 days ) the sign that the obligation to attend Mass had now been fulfilled.
And the faithful should leave their pews and get back to working on their master's property.
And the faithful should leave their pews and get back to working on their master's property.
Hmmm. Was the Sabbath not respected in pre-Vatican II times? My impression was that even in medieval Europe, pretty much all holy days constituted exemptions from working another's land. But I Am Not A Social Historian.
Sheep and cattle to tend to for a start, harvests to get in - these activities did not know the day of the week and it would have been a brave villein to try to teach the livestock or crops.
Sheep and cattle to tend to for a start, harvests to get in - these activities did not know the day of the week and it would have been a brave villein to try to teach the livestock or crops.
I presume, then, that the strict Sabbatarianism that saw crofters feed their beasts on Saturday evening was without pre-reformation antecedents?
My understanding of bells during Mass is that churches were multi-purpose in medieval times. No pews and people milling round chatting, doing deals etc.
Bells were used to let people know that a) Mass has started, b) here's the consecration so shut up and c) time for communion.
Well, the bits that I know about such matters are:
- in the High Middle Ages the Church tried to enforce a minimum of one communion per year upon the faithful. Owing to the veneration and awe with which the Host was held, this minimum was also often a maximum.
- there were plentiful exemptions to the obligation to work one's lord's land over the course of the year, which included plenty of feast days.
Medieval and early- modern labour might have been arduous, and I'm sure exceptions to the exemptions were plentiful. But the notion of a time-keeping manager keeping a beady eye on his villeins' time spent at Mass seems to me anachronistic.
I would never have thought of people leaving church to go and work on the lord's land but I do remember as a child that the priest at the 8 o'clock Mass preached his sermon after Communion so that those working on Sundays in nearby factories could get to work earlier by missing out on the sermon.
A pragmatic, and pastorally-sensitive, approach, especially if preaching wasn't his forte!
Re bells, it was often the case (certainly in larger churches) that two or more Masses were being said, at separate altars, at the same time, but not co-ordinated, IYSWIM.
I think it's Eamon Duffy who records that people who were anxious to 'see their Lord' (i.e. in the elevated Host, at the consecration) would rush from one side of the church to the other when the consecration bell rang, even if they happened to be listening to a sermon elsewhere in the building at the time...
George Herbert used to ring the church bell for the midday Angelus to let the farmers in the surrounding fields know that he was praying for them. There are some nice village traditions around church bell ringing. At weddings a bell would toll the age of the bride. And at funerals it would toll the age of the deceased so that everyone in the community would realise who was being buried.
George Herbert ringing the Angelus? Link, and/or citation, please...
Most unlikely during his time, but I stand to be corrected. AIUI, he said Matins at 10am, and Evensong at 4pm, so presumably rang the bell before those daily Offices.
As regards tolling the bell for a deceased parishioner, may I refer you all to Dorothy L Sayer's classic mystery novel The Nine Tailors ?
I rang the nine tailors (actually three times three) plus seventy-two at the last funeral we had at St Oddballs. The shoulders knew about it afterwards as our bell is about 1200lbs!
I'm quoting my SD on George Herbert - I couldn't find any reference to it online but perhaps it's from one of his biographies. He was commenting that ringing the bell for the Angelus was a way for a priest to let their parishoners know that he was praying for them. And he told me that he did the same thing in his church.
Hmm. Given the anti-Catholic atmosphere in England during Herbert's brief three years' incumbency at Bemerton, I think it's rather more likely that he duly (and in obedience to the rubrics) rang the church bell for Matins and Evensong.
With the same laudable intention, of course, of letting the parishioners know that he was praying for them at the time...
In these more enlightened days, there are indeed Anglican churches where the Angelus is regularly rung - Our Place is one of them (or was, till the bell-rope broke - we are presently seeking quotes for replacement!).
Hmm. Given the anti-Catholic atmosphere in England during Herbert's brief three years' incumbency at Bemerton, I think it's rather more likely that he duly (and in obedience to the rubrics) rang the church bell for Matins and Evensong.
With the same laudable intention, of course, of letting the parishioners know that he was praying for them at the time...
In these more enlightened days, there are indeed Anglican churches where the Angelus is regularly rung - Our Place is one of them (or was, till the bell-rope broke - we are presently seeking quotes for replacement!).
You mean it hasn't just had a piece of blue nylon rope tied on to the broken end? What kind of church is this?!
Could the blue nylon rope be Marian blue ?
Blue of any hue suits the Blessed Virgin though I do remember some consternation in the town where I was brought up when someone entered the local Catholic church and tied a red, white and blue (Glasgow Rangers) scarf round the statue of the Blessed Virgin.
George Herbert used to ring the church bell for the midday Angelus to let the farmers in the surrounding fields know that he was praying for them. There are some nice village traditions around church bell ringing. At weddings a bell would toll the age of the bride. And at funerals it would toll the age of the deceased so that everyone in the community would realise who was being buried.
So never send to know for whom the bell tolls...
I think that custom pre-dates Herbert. My only source is Nancy Mitford but from that it seems that the practice persisted into at least early post-WW II France, perhaps elsewhere. I'd rather not use "nice" - too many nasty connotations there - but certainly pleasant and worth preserving. The practice here at the non-Sydney parishes is for the bell to be rung at the start for the time of the funeral - ie 10 for a 10 am, 14 for a 2 pm. Then after the Nunc, the ringing starts again with once for each year of the life of the deceased.
Hmm. Given the anti-Catholic atmosphere in England during Herbert's brief three years' incumbency at Bemerton, I think it's rather more likely that he duly (and in obedience to the rubrics) rang the church bell for Matins and Evensong.
With the same laudable intention, of course, of letting the parishioners know that he was praying for them at the time...
In these more enlightened days, there are indeed Anglican churches where the Angelus is regularly rung - Our Place is one of them (or was, till the bell-rope broke - we are presently seeking quotes for replacement!).
You mean it hasn't just had a piece of blue nylon rope tied on to the broken end? What kind of church is this?!
Clearly a wasteful and substandard one!
Oi!
Though the idea of some nice blue rope is attractive....
Alas, the rope (actually a wire rope) broke off where it joined the bell - quite a few feet above ground level, on top of the west gable end! It broke off once before, and ladders were used to get to it, but that is no longer allowed by Elf and Safe Tea.
We are hoping to eventually restore the bell to action, but even the simplest repair is going to cost £££, which in our case we have not got (well, not enough, probably, given that other building repair work needs doing).
In these more enlightened days, there are indeed Anglican churches where the Angelus is regularly rung - Our Place is one of them (or was, till the bell-rope broke - we are presently seeking quotes for replacement!).
You mean it hasn't just had a piece of blue nylon rope tied on to the broken end? What kind of church is this?!
Depends whereabouts it broke. We had a similar problem some years ago when it snapped very high up near the roof. We had to wait until we could persuade the rock-climbing husband of one of the congregation to climb up and fix it.
In these more enlightened days, there are indeed Anglican churches where the Angelus is regularly rung - Our Place is one of them (or was, till the bell-rope broke - we are presently seeking quotes for replacement!).
You mean it hasn't just had a piece of blue nylon rope tied on to the broken end? What kind of church is this?!
Depends whereabouts it broke. We had a similar problem some years ago when it snapped very high up near the roof. We had to wait until we could persuade the rock-climbing husband of one of the congregation to climb up and fix it.
When the parish where I grew up built a new church they installed the bell from the old one in an external tower and a local factory rigged up a revolving solenoid to ring it via a push button by the vestry door. The only downside was that any repairs involved said (huge) factory bringing over a cherry-picker to reach the bell.
When using the CofE's Common Worship: Daily Prayer for MP or EP, are the Collect of the Day and Lord's Prayer generally supposed to be the very last things before "The Conclusion"?
When using the CofE's Common Worship: Daily Prayer for MP or EP, are the Collect of the Day and Lord's Prayer generally supposed to be the very last things before "The Conclusion"?
That sounds correct, mainly because what struck me about the CW:DP was that the collect and Lord's Prayer were reversed to what I am used to in the Monastic Breviary.
Why is the liturgical colour for most of the church's year green? I can see the link with the other colours, but this isn't so obvious. (In the past, when asked, I've said green is for growth, but that's me being creative.)
For British history I would say 600AD to 1500AD is the Middle Ages. The Dark Ages thing has been out of favour - except perhaps as a description of the era we are currently living in - for about the last 30 years. We were told very firmly that the period 600 to 1000AD was to be referred to as the Early Middle Ages. 400 to 600 was up for grabs.
Liturgical colours come along in Britain about 1200 and there is a large degree of local variation at first. It is not too much of an exaggeration to say the familiar white-red-violet-green scheme is a late 19th century innovation in Anglican circles. Mediaeval uses were far less disciplined!
I have recently started partaking of the Holy Mysteries at 8am in a MoR CofE establishment. The locally printed service booklet is entitled "Common Worship Order Two - A service of Holy Communion according to the 1662 Book of Common Prayer", presumably in a spirit of comprise and/or camouflage .
One very peculiar anomaly for me is the position of the Sermon. After the Creed, an offertory sentence is read, the 'collection' of alms taken in silence, the elements placed upon the Holy Table, the chalice filled and the Lavabo performed. Then the Sermon is preached, and hands are not washed further . The rubric says "A homily (sermon) may be given here or after the Offertory".
Is this a common practice within the BCP tradition?
Comments
We manage it through careful choreography. Coffin is asperged then leaves church while rest of congregation listen to music chosen for purpose; then usually some final prayers, possibly a hymn, blessing before they leave for the Wake.
Meanwhile at the crem it is just 1 prayer and committal, no frills.
In theory it should be a minimum of 40 minutes but ending the church service in a measured way, and the walk to our hall - or the pub next door - where most Wakes are held makes it work. But yes, I realise we're lucky. And most of our funerals are still burials, if the deceased lived in the parish, because around here a burial costs less than a third of the cost of a cremation.
It was 'the Tea' around where I grew up, but it was 'the Wake' in my mother's family due to Irish ancestry. Thanks to Methodist influence they can be totally sober affairs, but there is also the back room of the pub variety which is handy if you need a pint after the proceedings but they still tend to be fairly. We tend to get bottle out at weddings and funerals; somethings cannot be done properly strictly sober!
If on an evening before the day of the funeral, it’s referred to a “visitation.” Visitations generally happen at the funeral home.
Yes, that's the same here. But we still have no idea where people are if they've moved away.
I have a vague memory of reading that in CofE churchyards grave reservation faculties only lasted for 30 years?
It was traditional in the RC church for the authorities regularly to remind people to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days. Then the question arose as to how much of the Mass one should attend to fulfil the obligation. Generally it was accepted that the Mass of the Catchumens/Liturgy of the Word could be missed BUT the Mass of the Faithful/Liturgy of the Eucharist should on no account be missed.
The essential parts here were/are : the offering of the bread and wine, the consecration of the bread and wine, the offering of the Body and Blood of Christ to the Eternal Father and the reception of the element by the priest,who acted both 'in persona Christi' and as the representative of the community.
It is virtually universal in the RC church for a bell to be rung at the beginning of Mass and the bell rung after the priest's communion was (in pre Vatican 2 days ) the sign that the obligation to attend Mass had now been fulfilled.
And the faithful should leave their pews and get back to working on their master's property.
Hmmm. Was the Sabbath not respected in pre-Vatican II times? My impression was that even in medieval Europe, pretty much all holy days constituted exemptions from working another's land. But I Am Not A Social Historian.
I presume, then, that the strict Sabbatarianism that saw crofters feed their beasts on Saturday evening was without pre-reformation antecedents?
Bells were used to let people know that a) Mass has started, b) here's the consecration so shut up and c) time for communion.
- in the High Middle Ages the Church tried to enforce a minimum of one communion per year upon the faithful. Owing to the veneration and awe with which the Host was held, this minimum was also often a maximum.
- there were plentiful exemptions to the obligation to work one's lord's land over the course of the year, which included plenty of feast days.
Medieval and early- modern labour might have been arduous, and I'm sure exceptions to the exemptions were plentiful. But the notion of a time-keeping manager keeping a beady eye on his villeins' time spent at Mass seems to me anachronistic.
Re bells, it was often the case (certainly in larger churches) that two or more Masses were being said, at separate altars, at the same time, but not co-ordinated, IYSWIM.
I think it's Eamon Duffy who records that people who were anxious to 'see their Lord' (i.e. in the elevated Host, at the consecration) would rush from one side of the church to the other when the consecration bell rang, even if they happened to be listening to a sermon elsewhere in the building at the time...
So never send to know for whom the bell tolls...
Most unlikely during his time, but I stand to be corrected. AIUI, he said Matins at 10am, and Evensong at 4pm, so presumably rang the bell before those daily Offices.
As regards tolling the bell for a deceased parishioner, may I refer you all to Dorothy L Sayer's classic mystery novel The Nine Tailors ?
I'm quoting my SD on George Herbert - I couldn't find any reference to it online but perhaps it's from one of his biographies. He was commenting that ringing the bell for the Angelus was a way for a priest to let their parishoners know that he was praying for them. And he told me that he did the same thing in his church.
With the same laudable intention, of course, of letting the parishioners know that he was praying for them at the time...
In these more enlightened days, there are indeed Anglican churches where the Angelus is regularly rung - Our Place is one of them (or was, till the bell-rope broke - we are presently seeking quotes for replacement!).
You mean it hasn't just had a piece of blue nylon rope tied on to the broken end? What kind of church is this?!
Blue of any hue suits the Blessed Virgin though I do remember some consternation in the town where I was brought up when someone entered the local Catholic church and tied a red, white and blue (Glasgow Rangers) scarf round the statue of the Blessed Virgin.
There is... very little that's gentle about west coast sectarianism.
I think that custom pre-dates Herbert. My only source is Nancy Mitford but from that it seems that the practice persisted into at least early post-WW II France, perhaps elsewhere. I'd rather not use "nice" - too many nasty connotations there - but certainly pleasant and worth preserving. The practice here at the non-Sydney parishes is for the bell to be rung at the start for the time of the funeral - ie 10 for a 10 am, 14 for a 2 pm. Then after the Nunc, the ringing starts again with once for each year of the life of the deceased.
My tongue was very firmly in my cheek.
Oi!
Though the idea of some nice blue rope is attractive....
Alas, the rope (actually a wire rope) broke off where it joined the bell - quite a few feet above ground level, on top of the west gable end! It broke off once before, and ladders were used to get to it, but that is no longer allowed by Elf and Safe Tea.
We are hoping to eventually restore the bell to action, but even the simplest repair is going to cost £££, which in our case we have not got (well, not enough, probably, given that other building repair work needs doing).
Depends whereabouts it broke. We had a similar problem some years ago when it snapped very high up near the roof. We had to wait until we could persuade the rock-climbing husband of one of the congregation to climb up and fix it.
When the parish where I grew up built a new church they installed the bell from the old one in an external tower and a local factory rigged up a revolving solenoid to ring it via a push button by the vestry door. The only downside was that any repairs involved said (huge) factory bringing over a cherry-picker to reach the bell.
That sounds correct, mainly because what struck me about the CW:DP was that the collect and Lord's Prayer were reversed to what I am used to in the Monastic Breviary.
IIRC, he also says that some churches simply used the less-posh vestments for ferial weekday Mass, without regard to colour.
I think I'm living in them now.
Liturgical colours come along in Britain about 1200 and there is a large degree of local variation at first. It is not too much of an exaggeration to say the familiar white-red-violet-green scheme is a late 19th century innovation in Anglican circles. Mediaeval uses were far less disciplined!
One very peculiar anomaly for me is the position of the Sermon. After the Creed, an offertory sentence is read, the 'collection' of alms taken in silence, the elements placed upon the Holy Table, the chalice filled and the Lavabo performed. Then the Sermon is preached, and hands are not washed further
Is this a common practice within the BCP tradition?