Purgatory: Coronavirus

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  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    ...though there are varying estimates, among medical sources, of how long a corona virus can survive on a surface. I'll try to post some links later today.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Inside Health on radio 4 today, had a walkthrough report on hospital prep.

    I didn’t catch all of it, it’ll be on bbc sounds, but I noted they thought they’d expand icu by stopping elective surgeries and using the theatres and recovery suites. (They said that you couldn’t do icu in corridors, as Italy is reported to be doing, because our hospital corridors do not have plug holes - which you would need for ventilators etc.)

    They also said the theatre ventilators (in that specific hospital) were more customisable than the icu ones, so they’d probably put covid patients on the icu ventilators and people with less compromised respiration on the theatres ventilators.

    I note the Chinese have now offered to send the Italians 1000 ventilators, tens of thousands of masks and other supplies. Which is both very generous and an indication they think they have their domestic situation under control.

    Inside Health link.
  • Galilit wrote: »
    Our kibbutz's baptismal site and shops on the River Jordan are closing on Sunday
    Bethlehem is a ghost town and lots of local people are sick there

    The Baby Jesus will be thrilled at the reduced commercialisation of His Life and Works!
    But probably not at the rather bad effect it will have on the local economy.
    The phrase "lead by example" comes to mind. We're all being told to prepare to work from home if needed (when my computer at work was replaced my working files were moved from the hard drive of my old computer to OneDrive ... but we're now being told to copy any files we may need from local computers to the cloud so that if we have to work at home we can access them).
    The problem's not so much managers and reasonably high powered jobs, but at the minion level, doing admin and working in call centres etc. Very few companies have the tech for remote telephony working, or could get it in place quickly, not to mention jobs like handling post, and GDPR and security concerns with taking people's data home or using their own internet connection to access databases with sensitive information.

    If they do start cancelling operations to requisition the theatres, or clinics because all medical staff are required elsewhere, the clinic administrators can't avoid coming into the hospitals to phone all the patients and let them know.

    Our local supermarket is out of pasta, (except a few bits in the 'world foods' section, and any loo roll pack size over 4s, but there is still plenty of both in the halal supermarket I also frequent, which does suggest that the 'panic buyers/preppers' are being a bit sheepish in their destination. I must admit though that I bought 2 packs of paracetamol rather than one as there was hardly any there and I don't want to be chasing round for it if there are still shortages in a couple of weeks and I need it, although again the multi-ethnic chemist will probably still have some.
  • It is a worry that Boris is twiddling his thumbs, nervous of doing anything. Will it be too little too late?

    The right hand doesn't know what the left hand is infecting.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    Our state governor has just shut down meetings over 150 persons in size in the more populated counties around Puget Sound (including my own).

    (Puget Sound (second map))
  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    New York City cancelled the St Patrick's Day parade for the first time in 258 years.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    NicoleMR wrote: »
    New York City cancelled the St Patrick's Day parade for the first time in 258 years.

    As has Boston, I think.

    During the Spanish Flu outbreak in 1918, Philadelphia had a huge War Bond Parade scheduled during the time. Medical people were advising the city to cancel it, but the city went on. The flu just exploded there shortly after that. I think I heard around 14,000 people were buried in a mass grave there.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    San Francisco's cancelled our St. Pat's parade, though I don't think it's quite the event that NYC and Boston have.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    Where is Bethel's faith now?

    [ETA better link here]
  • mousethief wrote: »
    It is a worry that Boris is twiddling his thumbs, nervous of doing anything. Will it be too little too late?

    The right hand doesn't know what the left hand is infecting.

    The right hand doesn't want to know if the left hand is infected.
  • My kids, who are home for spring break, have just learned that spring break is being extended an extra week, and when classes start back on the 23rd, they will be online.

    Meanwhile where I work, people in high risk categories are being encouraged to telework. Given that I had open heart surgery 7 weeks ago, that includes me. I had just finally gotten back to the office last week.

  • Tom Hanks and his wife Rita Wilson on location in Australia have been diagnosed COVID-19 positive.

    AFF
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    That’s the numerical perspective. But it won’t help when there are more seriously ill patients than hospital beds.

    That’s why the spread must be slowed down as much as possible.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    He's got no resorts or hotels within the Schengen zone, I guess.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    His choice of countries there is really weird, and it still seems to reflect his failure to understand that there is already substantial community transmission within the USA.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    As somebody already observed, he's treating it as a PR problem not a public health problem, and using it to score some political points along the way. The declaration is the future UK/US/Europe trade relationship writ large.

    Oh, and you're OK if you're from Romania.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    He has no earthly clue. He thinks this is a PR problem to manage, not a public health crisis. He'll bail out the oil industry and the travel industry (hotels!), and he'll see if he can curry favor with a payroll tax, but he has no idea what's really going on, never mind how to address it.

    The governor of California is now recommending that all public gatherings of 250 or more people be cancelled through the end of March and that smaller events be cancelled if there isn't space for people to be at least 6 feet apart from each other. It's a recommendation, not a requirement, but I imagine most companies and organizations will not want to incur the liability of not following it. The NBA has already suspended all games following one player's positive test for Covid-19, and I'll be surprised if baseball season opens in the normal way on March 26. Colleges and universities all over southern California are moving classes online where possible. The schools closest to me are being sensible about it, it seems -- online classes for everything that can be online, social distancing in classes that can't be online, and they're not closing the campuses altogether, leaving needy students in the lurch.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    His choice of countries there is really weird, and it still seems to reflect his failure to understand that there is already substantial community transmission within the USA.

    Well, the choice is based on whether they are in Schengenland or not. Although I only discovered ten minutes ago that Romania is not.

    Eta: I'm not saying it's a *good* choice. Just that it's not completely arbitrary.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    It's arbitrary from a public health point of view. It makes perfect sense from a certain political point of view. Drawing the line round Schengen neatly excludes the UK and Ireland.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    BBC are reporting the government is likely to declare we are in the ‘delay’ phase after the cobra meeting this morning, that will change the recommendations on social distancing - though it’s not clear if they will shut schools at this point.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited March 2020
    Ricardus wrote: »
    His choice of countries there is really weird, and it still seems to reflect his failure to understand that there is already substantial community transmission within the USA.

    Well, the choice is based on whether they are in Schengenland or not. Although I only discovered ten minutes ago that Romania is not.

    Eta: I'm not saying it's a *good* choice. Just that it's not completely arbitrary.

    Not arbitrary but still a weird choice - if you wanted to include all countries where there is community transmission it would be a lot longer list and include the UK. But also, it’s *not* banning all travel to and for - if you are American or related to one you are magically immune to covid, likewise if you work on a cargo ship.

    Not that it’s a great idea anyway - the horse bolted some weeks ago and as a strategy, it creates false confidence and buggers up contact tracing, it is thought to be one of the reasons Italy’s outbreak is so substantial.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    But also, it’s *not* banning all travel to and for - if you are American or related to one you are magically immune to covid, likewise if you work on a cargo ship.

    I'm not sure about all of that. I think new measures quarantining (or at least checking) returning US citizens are in the pipeline, I read something about trans-Atlantic flights having to land at designated airports. A separate regime does apply to crews though.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    Eutychus wrote: »
    It's arbitrary from a public health point of view. It makes perfect sense from a certain political point of view. Drawing the line round Schengen neatly excludes the UK and Ireland.

    Plus more fundamentally it reinforces the message that Borders Are Good.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited March 2020
    If I were the democrats, I would make Medicare for all the party platform at this point. Because borders or no borders, it is fairly clear that sick people with no testing, no treatment, no healthcare and no safety net will spread disease even *gasp* to go getting entrepreneurial wealth creators / exploitative billionaires.

    Likewise, I hope that modifications to sick pay in the uk may become permanent.

    I have been interested in some of the coverage about Hong Kong - spread there has been surprisingly limited given the proximity to China. Many are attributing it to the population having lived through the SARS outbreak - many of them have preserved habits such as using a toothpick to push lift buttons, lots of hand washing, carrying and wearing a mask if you have a respiratory infection etc for the last *17* years.

    (The mask doesn’t protect you, it protects others from you.)
  • Hong Kong was also IIRC quite quick about restricting border crossings.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Golden Key wrote: »
    ...though there are varying estimates, among medical sources, of how long a corona virus can survive on a surface. I'll try to post some links later today.

    "How long coronavirus lasts on metal, glass, plastic and other surfaces" (SFGate).
    You'll note that makes reference to SARS-CoV-2. I did some checking, and that's the name of the corona virus that causes COVID-19, the current disease.

    "Scientists Predict Coronavirus May Live For Up To Nine Days On Surfaces" (Forbes).

    Not trying to care anybody. But I've seen differing science-based estimates, and thought folks should know.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Should your penultimate sentence read ‘Not trying time scare anybody.’?
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    mousethief wrote: »
    Josephine read that the Covid-19 has a lipid outer shell (surely not the technical term) so washing with soap actually breaks it apart. So wash with soap.

    Here is a good explanation - https://tinyurl.com/tuzvvor
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    BroJames--

    Yes. Thx. But we both mistyped. It should read "not trying to scare anybody".
    ;)
  • BroJames wrote: »
    Should your penultimate sentence read ‘Not trying time scare anybody.’?

    ITV in the form of Peston already has scaring people covered.
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    What do folks think about this article concerning herd immunity?

    https://tinyurl.com/we9bmas
  • Boogie wrote: »
    What do folks think about this article concerning herd immunity?

    https://tinyurl.com/we9bmas

    It makes very little sense in context, but then it's Peston and when he was economics correspondent he once started a bank run.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    I don't think it is saying anything surprising, a pandemic without a cure or vaccine will circulate in the population until the population develops immunity or a treatment/vaccine becomes available that will eliminate/control it (or possibly until it mutates into something else less problematic).

    It has always been about controlling demand for healthcare, by limiting spread in order to allow good enough healthcare to be available to the seriously ill to minimize the death rate.

    The debate is just about the best way to do that, and how to time the measures you take to gain the best effect for the least disruption.

    It is not always self-evident. It may seem sensible to just close your borders, but if people have already got the virus before you do that or evade the restriction - your contact tracing is seriously compromised as is your ability to monitor spread and time the implementation of other measures. If like Hong Kong we were in the habit of wearing masks when we have a cold, advising it might help prevent spread, but we don't normally have the stocks so advising that would drain supplies from those who need it most with relatively little benefit. The approach needs to be adapted to the specific society, and balance risks and unintended consequences.

  • Trump refers to COVID-19 as a 'foreign virus'. I'm surprised he doesn't accuse it of being brown, or Muslim, or both...
  • It has always been about controlling demand for healthcare, by limiting spread in order to allow good enough healthcare to be available to the seriously ill to minimize the death rate.

    In the context of that article, this is an aspiration rather than a strategy. I'm not putting too much weight on it - as presumably Peston zoned out during a meeting with a scientist and came out with whatever he remembered.

    That said it would preferable if the government started to brief via proper press conferences rather than their favourite media outlets.
  • I don't think it is saying anything surprising, a pandemic without a cure or vaccine will circulate in the population until the population develops immunity or a treatment/vaccine becomes available that will eliminate/control it (or possibly until it mutates into something else less problematic).

    Also, the point of herd immunity is that a large percentage of the population is immune to disease to the point where it doesn't spread (and so those who are vulnerable and aren't immune don't catch it).

    Absent measures to isolate the vulnerable, 'natural' herd immunity via spreading the virus just means that large numbers of people will die.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    If anyone wants my take on it as a preacher, I've done a quick'n'dirty translation from the French which can be accessed here (WeTransfer link, sorry, can't get my personal website to upload).
  • Trump's rhetoric ("the virus will not have a chance against us"), strikes a queasy balance between ignorance and bombast. As David Litt said, he's gonna get us all killed.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    BroJames wrote: »
    I love the alt texts for those things.

    It is now official Church of England advice to
    • Offer Communion in one kind only to all communicants i.e. the consecrated bread/wafer/host, with the priest alone taking the wine;
    • suspend handshaking or other direct physical contact during the sharing of the peace;
    • suspend direct physical contact as part of a blessing or ‘laying on of hands’.

    The CofE has issed guidelines, yet my employer, who runs group homes for people with disabilities, has said nothing whatsoever to front line workers. Nothing about what process to follow if a suspected case is noticed, nothing about how to deal with at risk clients, nothing about arrangements for testing and isolation, nothing about what to do if you feel sick, nothing about entitlements for the large banks of casual staff we access. NOTHING. I am starting to think Trump has taken us over.

    Of the 5 clients I work with, four have swallowing difficulties, two are at risk of aspiration and one is fed through a gastronomy tube and has until about 3 years ago was admitted to hospital every time she had a chest infection.

    When the fires were raging far away from any of the homes we run, there were notices and instructions flying about within days.
  • Your employer clearly thinks that Trump is right, and that the virus is a Hideous Fib...
    :scream:

    BTW, FatherInCharge has said that our holy water stoups will be empty from tomorrow. Another slight (probably) risk minimised.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Trump's rhetoric ("the virus will not have a chance against us"), strikes a queasy balance between ignorance and bombast.

    It's a callback to the post-9/11 trope that surrendering to fear was "letting the terrorists win". Which was fair at the time since the point of terrorism is to instill terror, but a virus doesn't care about your emotional state.
  • HedgehogHedgehog Shipmate
    Trump refers to COVID-19 as a 'foreign virus'. I'm surprised he doesn't accuse it of being brown, or Muslim, or both...
    Just be glad that (so far) he has refrained from calling it "the Mexican Beer Virus"...
  • I had to look that up...for those of us on this side of the Pond, there is indeed a Mexican beer called 'Corona'.

    Probably quite tasty, I daresay. Is it one of those that you drink from the bottle, via a slice of lime? Happy memories of haunting London bars and clubs back in the 70s with work colleague Alice from Canada... :grin:
  • I had to look that up...for those of us on this side of the Pond, there is indeed a Mexican beer called 'Corona'.

    Readily available on this side of the pond - usually sold in job lots at every supermarket.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    O right - I'll look out for it, as it'll make a change from my usual choice (Czech or Polish - good European beers, both, though YMMV).
    ION, I've just had an email from The Pituitary Foundation with advice to us poor souls with Addison's Disease or Secondary Adrenal Insufficiency as to how to be safe during the present National Crisis.

    Basically, it's to take all recommended precautions, to increase the dose of hydro-cortisone as required, and to ensure that sufficient meds are to hand (requesting more from our GP if we need to). No surprise there.

    I have SAI, but I'm more-or-less self-isolating at present, and I've enough meds for the next few weeks. If an Addison's crisis (which can potentially be life-threatening) should occur, I have emergency liquid hydro-cortisone supplies (and needles) for self-injection, unless I flake out first...
    :wink:

  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Perhaps most astonishingly, the White House had to retract two policy announcements that Trump erroneously made either because he failed to read his text properly, or his speechwriters failed to describe his position. Trump announced his European travel ban would apply to “trade and cargo,” before the White House announced this was an error.

    So why is the question of trade and cargo from inside the Schengen Area important enough for the White House to issue a public correction, especially given how much The Boss hates getting publicly corrected? Oh right.
    Two of the three factories (the U.S. one is the smallest) that make Qiagen RNA extraction kits are in Germany & Spain. This is fine.
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    I had to look that up...for those of us on this side of the Pond, there is indeed a Mexican beer called 'Corona'.

    Probably quite tasty, I daresay.
    Is it one of those that you drink from the bottle, via a slice of lime? Happy memories of haunting London bars and clubs back in the 70s with work colleague Alice from Canada... :grin:

    It is not. They insist on bottling it in clear glass which subjects the contents to UV degradation. You are almost guaranteed a skunky beer, which is why they shove that lime wedge in the bottle on top of it when opened. They hope you won't notice.

    AFF



  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    I had to look that up...for those of us on this side of the Pond, there is indeed a Mexican beer called 'Corona'.

    Probably quite tasty, I daresay.
    Is it one of those that you drink from the bottle, via a slice of lime? Happy memories of haunting London bars and clubs back in the 70s with work colleague Alice from Canada... :grin:

    It is not. They insist on bottling it in clear glass which subjects the contents to UV degradation. You are almost guaranteed a skunky beer, which is why they shove a lime wedge in the bottle on top of it when served, hoping you won't notice.

    AFF

    There was a poll taken when the coronavirus outbreak first penetrated the Western media asking Americans whether or not they'd be willing to drink Corona beer. Something along the lines of 30% said they wouldn't drink Corona beer for any reason. Some media spun this as "ha ha, ignorant Americans think they'll get infected from Corona beer", while the poll mostly indicated attitudes similar to @A Feminine Force's, that they wouldn't drink Corona for any reason.
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