Purgatory: Coronavirus

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Comments

  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Now I have to quarantine the cat :(

    I am not going to be a popular human. Any tips for converting semi-outdoor cat to full time indoor cat would be welcome.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Now I have to quarantine the cat :(

    I am not going to be a popular human. Any tips for converting semi-outdoor cat to full time indoor cat would be welcome.

    You could contact the SCA or any local re-enactors and see if one of them will lend you a suit of full plate for the duration?
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Now I have to quarantine the cat :(

    I am not going to be a popular human. Any tips for converting semi-outdoor cat to full time indoor cat would be welcome.

    Short of a tranquilizer gun?
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Harumph
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Seriously though I'm taking this one under consideration. It's not Government Instructions yet and would be a big step. Non outdoor cat staff might not get it, but it would not be easy.
  • No, I am also not doing this until it is an instruction. I know that my cats do not go to other homes, if that is what it is about. But then I am in a spread-out village. It might be different in urban environments.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    From that article it appears that the transmission route is through fur; someone who's infected petting an animal transferring virus to the fur, then someone else petting the same animal picking it up. I don't know about your cats, but there aren't many cats who would allow a stranger to touch them which should limit that route of transmission. Dogs are more inclined to be petted, but all that needs is that when you're walking a dog you don't let others pet it. Plus, if you have pets who go outside, it looks like washing your hands after petting them is advisable.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited April 2020
    And also cats pass it to other cats. As yet there is no evidence of cat to human transmission - but honestly how would you know ? You assume you’d caught it from a human.

    Personally, it’s a new disease that I understand poorly - I am following official advice re my behaviour. The British Vetinary Association is recommending I keep the cat in, so I’ll keep the cat in. They might be wrong, but they are better placed to assess the relevant the relevant risk to humans and my cat (and other cats) than I am.
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    edited April 2020
    Yes. My brother says the hardest part of his daily walks is not stroking the dogs which bound up to him. He walks with his hands behind his back.

    Whenever anyone goes to pet my dogs (I walk them on long lines at the moment) I don’t allow it and tell people that the virus transmits on fur.

    It’s been obvious to me from the start - fur is a surface like any other material.

    Another worry I have - my friend’s daughter is a nurse on a Covid19 ward and she goes home, on public transport, in her uniform. They wash it at home. She says there is no space or time to get changed and put it in a bag.

    My son’s hospital (in Germany) launder his uniform every day and he showers before he sets off home. Fresh uniform is hanging up for him when he gets to work. That’s always been the procedure. He has work shoes which stay there.

    Why our nurses wear their uniforms in public I do not know. Even to a lay person like me that seems barmy.
  • Boogie wrote: »
    Why our nurses wear their uniforms in public I do not know.

    Because it saves time (money) and money.

  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Even outwith the current pandemic it seems a strange thing. For a start, it's two way ... if you wear uniform on the way to work then you're walking into the hospital wearing something that's already contaminated by all the usual dirt and germs you pick up on the bus.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    Ohher wrote: »
    Which comes right beside "Everybody's giving different advise, I don't know which advice is helpful and which is bunkum, so I'll just ignore it all and keep on as usual."

    A lot of people are at this point about dieting and food choices. First carbs are bad, then carbs are good and fat is bad, now carbs are bad again and fat is good. Eggs are good, bad, good, whatever. I'm just going to eat what I've always eaten and to hell with them. There's a very clever little sketch about this making the rounds (a couple of months ago anyway) on FarceBark. A guy comes in a time machine from the future to explain to a poor benighted soul in the (roughly) 1970s about how he shouldn't eat such-and-such. Then the time traveller reappears and says Wait, I was wrong, eat that, but not these other things. He keeps coming back several times, until the guy says he's just going to eat what he wants. We are all in that boat except we're travelling forward in time rather than the health wag travelling back and forth.

    The people I know who think 'Experts don't know what they're talking about' (be it on Brexit or global warming) universally cite food advice as evidence of this.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    Even outwith the current pandemic it seems a strange thing. For a start, it's two way ... if you wear uniform on the way to work then you're walking into the hospital wearing something that's already contaminated by all the usual dirt and germs you pick up on the bus.

    In France it would also be a great way of being harrassed. Several stories of passive-aggressive notes on windscreens and in stairwells asking medical personnel to move away to prevent them contaminating their neighbours.
  • Even outwith the current pandemic it seems a strange thing. For a start, it's two way ... if you wear uniform on the way to work then you're walking into the hospital wearing something that's already contaminated by all the usual dirt and germs you pick up on the bus.

    I think it comes down to money. Having a proper laundry service for nursing staff is clearly the best policy but it is expensive.

    To be honest though, in normal times the infection control advantage is very marginal. (The vast majority of hospital acquired infections come from the patient's own skin).

    Of course, in the current situation it's a vital precaution. In the hospital that I work in everyone is expected to change when they get to work (either into scrubs or a clean outfit) and change before they leave. I decided to do that before it became policy. As a surgeon, I'm used to changing into scrubs half the time anyway.

    AFZ
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    edited April 2020
    It's pretty hard to avoid paranoid conversations about infection risks once you start thinking bout them. Dustbin men handle bins wearing gloves they don't change. Food deliveries come in plastic bags and contain wrapped and unwrapped items. Mail comes through the letter box. Medicines are delivered in paper wrappers and contained in boxes.

    All you know is that there has been handling of stuff you handle. We use plastic gloves one time, and handwash frequently. We both suffer from hay fever and the pollen count is high. What does this new sore throat mean? We do get that with hay fever. But can you be sure.

    Now it's friendly dogs and cats. I'm sure the more I think the more threats I'll see.

    Enough! We're taking precautions and finding other things to think about. My wife reckons there will be a baby boom in the winter .... There are different sorts of precautions.
  • <snip> I don't know about your cats, but there aren't many cats who would allow a stranger to touch them which should limit that route of transmission. <snip>
    Have you never read Six Dinner Sid? Having been the main staff of a six-dinner Sid for a number of years I would query that assertion.
    Boogie wrote: »
    Yes. My brother says the hardest part of his daily walks is not stroking the dogs which bound up to him. He walks with his hands behind his back. <snip>
    I disappointed a dog that bounded up to me and tried climbing my leg for a stroke by chatting to it but not stroking it. It was thoroughly confused and saddened by the experience.
    Boogie wrote: »
    Another worry I have - my friend’s daughter is a nurse on a Covid19 ward and she goes home, on public transport, in her uniform. They wash it at home. She says there is no space or time to get changed and put it in a bag.
    <snip>
    Why our nurses wear their uniforms in public I do not know. Even to a lay person like me that seems barmy.

    There are various campaigns - link to one version from the Banbury Guardian - asking for scrubs and scrub bags for the uniforms to be sealed into as NHS staff come off shift and/or get home so they can keep the scrubs away from their families.

    Because the supplies for scrubs usually come from areas of Asia currently under lock down: e.g. Bangladesh and China, Patrick Grant has switched the Community Clothing factories to sewing scrubs link to story here (I knew this from Twitter. The foreman isn't available, so Patrick Grant is running the factory.
  • Yes, you can become paranoid, quite easily. Going to our allotment, we have to unlock the gate, then use sanitizer, then get water in our can, but don't touch the taps, don't stroke the friendly cats, avoid anyone who is already there, it's a relief to get home.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Update on cats: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-52204534
    Dr Alemndros added that it would be sensible to keep cats indoors - where it is safe and possible to do so - during the outbreak.

    The British Veterinary Association (BVA) president Daniella Dos Santos told BBC News she agreed with that advice. But the association has since clarified that its recommendation to concerned pet-owners is to take the precaution of keeping cats indoors "only if someone in their own household showed symptoms".

    Every pet-owner though should "practise good hand hygiene," she said.

    "An animal's fur could carry the virus for a time if a pet were to have come into contact with someone who was sick."
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    :)
  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    Good luck to anyone trying to pat or pet our Thomas ...he hardly lets us topuch him!
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    edited April 2020
    Yes, you can become paranoid, quite easily. Going to our allotment, we have to unlock the gate, then use sanitizer, then get water in our can, but don't touch the taps, don't stroke the friendly cats, avoid anyone who is already there, it's a relief to get home.

    I use poo bags to touch gate latches etc. They are plentiful and can easily be single use. We have two boxes of latex gloves which Mr Boogs uses when servicing his bike. But I’m saving them for shopping trips etc.

  • Re health worker’s uniforms.

    WayBackWhen..... we had changing rooms and uniform laundered on site.

    When that all changed a number of staff (plus our unions) Did object.
    In writing.

    I wonder if the people who overode those objections are comfortable with their decisions now?
  • Hopefully not.
    :frowning:

    Our Place's organist is busy making up washing-bags, hospital staff for the use of, from old pillow-cases with drawstrings attached.

    AIUI the idea is for staff to pop their uniforms/scrubs into the bag, which then goes straight into the washing machine, and is (I suppose) duly washed itself, along with its contents.

    Organist's husband (a retired C of E priest) is a hospital chaplain, hence the contact, but the appeal for pillow-cases has gone out amongst all our local churches.

    Another inventive, and practical, thing to do to help, even in a small way.

    Our Lord, and His Blessed Mother, are no doubt pleased.
  • Barnabas62 wrote: »
    My wife reckons there will be a baby boom in the winter

    There will. And I reckon there will also be a divorce boom a few months after the lockdown ends.

    How many people will be part of both booms is an interesting question...
  • Cathscats wrote: »
    No, I am also not doing this until it is an instruction. I know that my cats do not go to other homes, if that is what it is about. But then I am in a spread-out village. It might be different in urban environments.
    Typically cats wander a great deal more than their owners realise.
  • The suggestion may be a sensible one (if not from the POV of Cats), but is probably completely unworkable.

    After all, isn't 'herding Cats' a common expression denoting great difficulty, if not impossibility?
  • Leorning CnihtLeorning Cniht Shipmate
    edited April 2020
    Even outwith the current pandemic it seems a strange thing. For a start, it's two way ... if you wear uniform on the way to work then you're walking into the hospital wearing something that's already contaminated by all the usual dirt and germs you pick up on the bus.

    There seems to be a modern trend in these parts for staff in the doctor's office and the like to wear what looks like surgical scrubs as a daily uniform. Leading to the rather bizarre sight of seeing people in surgical scrubs in the queue at the supermarket. Also leading me to believe that it's a costume rather than a functional choice.
  • TwilightTwilight Shipmate
    Barnabas62 wrote: »


    My wife reckons there will be a baby boom in the winter .... There are different sorts of precautions.

    My husband said the same thing and seemed to think it was cute. The idea horrifies me! Women trying to get safe prenatal care in infected offices. Delivery in possibly still over run hospitals and no one knows how the virus might effect the fetus.

  • We had this conversation back on page 36, on 29 March:
    Ricardus wrote: »
    The other thing that's going to add to the future birth spike is the shut down of the condom factory and the upcoming shortage of condoms (Guardian link).

    Although someone on one of my wife's Facebook groups observed that if there is a spike in the birthrate, it's a spike that will consist almost entirely of firstborn children ...

  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Because the supplies for scrubs usually come from areas of Asia currently under lock down: e.g. Bangladesh and China, Patrick Grant has switched the Community Clothing factories to sewing scrubs link to story here

    Not just under lockdown but areas where supplies generated are likely to be used to satisfy local demand. That's definitely been the case in China until recently. Bangladesh claims to only have 218 diagnosed cases of COVID-19, but they've also attributed 20 deaths to the disease which implies a much higher infection rate than has been diagnosed.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    I worder how many girls will be named Corona?
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Admin Emeritus
    According to R4's More or Less, it's very unlikely that there'll be a spike in births in 9 months time.

    Firstly, because most accidental pregnancies are from teenagers - who are all in lockdown. Secondly, because the birthrate drops during economic/societal crises. And thirdly, because IVF treatment has been suspended for the duration.

    Statistically, the subtractions will more than cover the additions.
  • Teenagers in lockdown, yeah, I believe it, thousands wouldn't.
  • How boys named Kovyd, and girls named Nine-Tina.
    If pet animals can carry this virus, the next question is magnitude of risk. Pet animals do interact with humans other than their owners, but how often? And where would they deposit virus that humans would pick up and transfer into themselves?

    My dog and cat do not go shopping with us for example. Nor do they venture very far. Could there by a COIVD-19 positive person in an off lead dog park? I suppose there could be. Best practice is not pat others' dogs I think.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    edited April 2020
    Perspective: More people in New York City have now died of COVID-19 (4,009 and counting) than died in the 9/11 attacks (2,977 in both NYC and Arlington, VA). More people in the United States have been killed by COVID-19 (12,912) than died in the 9/11 attacks plus the wars that followed (9,767). The current president*'s goal is to "only" have 2-4 Vietnam War's worth of American deaths from COVID-19.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Crœsos wrote: »
    Perspective: More people in New York City have now died of COVID-19 (4,009 and counting) than died in the 9/11 attacks (2,977). More people in the United States have been killed by COVID-19 (12,912) than died in the 9/11 attacks plus the wars that followed (9,767). The current president*'s goal is to "only" have 2-4 Vietnam War's worth of American deaths from COVID-19.

    I think it is disingenuous to compare COVID 19 with acts of war. That is like comparing apples to oranges. Rather, compare the deaths to other Pandemics. A total of 20,000 New Yorkers died in the 1918 pandemic. More than 100,000 New Yorkers have died from AIDS,
    -

    On the other hand, it is good to see the Washington State and California governors releasing 400 (Washington) and 150 (California) to New York State.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    My wife and I are still hoping for another baby. We have already decided that if by some chance we end up with two together they will be known as the Quarantwins.
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    Suddenly, I am finding an answer to something that has been puzzling me for some time. When looking through books of patterns for sewing, I thought it odd that there were patterns for scrubs. Surely, I thought, people who need scrubs would have them provided by their employer? Why would there be such a need that Simplicity, Butterick, McCalls et al would find it economic to produce the patterns. They were looking ahead.
  • edited April 2020
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Crœsos wrote: »
    Perspective: More people in New York City have now died of COVID-19 (4,009 and counting) than died in the 9/11 attacks (2,977). More people in the United States have been killed by COVID-19 (12,912) than died in the 9/11 attacks plus the wars that followed (9,767). The current president*'s goal is to "only" have 2-4 Vietnam War's worth of American deaths from COVID-19.

    I think it is disingenuous to compare COVID 19 with acts of war. That is like comparing apples to oranges. Rather, compare the deaths to other Pandemics. A total of 20,000 New Yorkers died in the 1918 pandemic. More than 100,000 New Yorkers have died from AIDS,
    -

    On the other hand, it is good to see the Washington State and California governors releasing 400 (Washington) and 150 (California) to New York State.

    ~40,000 in the USA die from car crashes each year, somewhere up to 35,000 by guns and some 480,000 deaths from smoking. But I'm not sure statistics like this really help very much. The Sept 11 attacks were a one time thing. The rest are cumulative over a year. But the rest also involve clear proportions of more individual choice. The war deaths are people chosing to go into the military for example. Or choosing to smoke.

    American Vietnam war deaths in particular are a bad comparison. Better would be the more than 2 million Vietnamese civilians killed. More Iraqis and Afghanis have been killed than Americans by far in the USA's more recent wars.

    Malaria kills close to 500,000 per year. 1.3 million from TB.
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    According to R4's More or Less, it's very unlikely that there'll be a spike in births in 9 months time.

    Firstly, because most accidental pregnancies are from teenagers - who are all in lockdown. Secondly, because the birthrate drops during economic/societal crises. And thirdly, because IVF treatment has been suspended for the duration.

    ....

    On the other hand - or on whatever member - Virus may spark 'devastating' global condom shortage.
    Malaysia -- one of the world's top rubber producers and a major source of condoms

    Isn't that redundant?



  • UK deaths nearly a thousand in a day, but new cases flatten. Cross your fingers.
  • edited April 2020
    The inconvenience is high. One person lives with someone who has a cough and must now get tested. That person then has to be tested. And everyone they've been in contact with must isolate for 14 days. Thus in this situation: one person has caused 27 people (sop far) to isolate. And it is a legal order to do so. Testing to be done on 2 people, and not on the rest until info comes back about the 2. All within 3 hours. It'd have been nice if person two had called in and not gone anywhere, but there was no way of knowing that a test would be ordered for person number one.
  • The inconvenience is high.

    Higher than forcing everyone to stay inside?
  • The inconvenience is high.

    Higher than forcing everyone to stay inside?

    Same difference. We're an essential business. Required to be open.

    Everyone is supposed to be inside here. There are Public Health Act orders about it. I'm just going into two meetings, one about physical isolation given the scenario I described, and the second about how people move around the city and what reconfig of what is allowed on roads (ban cars on some of them) needs to occur so people who must be out going to work etc can do so safely. Prior meetings today about supports and resources for health care workers with operational stress and mental health troubles within this mess. I've been at it 15 hours already today. And I was supposed to be pretending to retire after May long weekend.

    "when your best plan has gone to ground, you must form yourself to the new reality immediately" (Ernest Shackleton, 1920 in South, which everyone should read)
  • The inconvenience is high. One person lives with someone who has a cough and must now get tested. That person then has to be tested. And everyone they've been in contact with must isolate for 14 days. Thus in this situation: one person has caused 27 people (sop far) to isolate. And it is a legal order to do so. Testing to be done on 2 people, and not on the rest until info comes back about the 2. All within 3 hours. It'd have been nice if person two had called in and not gone anywhere, but there was no way of knowing that a test would be ordered for person number one.

    I am jealous. I would dearly love to be ordered (scratch that, OFFERED) a test. I have been living in a household of coughers with one fever and some body aches, and there isn't a snowball's chance in Hell of anybody offering us a test--not unless someone gets hospitalized. There's just no supply.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    I have come to the conclusion that the most dangerous places in the UK are hospitals, especially accident and emergency departments. Many old people who would be safe at home are getting infected in hospital.
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    Malaysia -- one of the world's top rubber producers and a major source of condoms

    Isn't that redundant?

    Not necessarily, the rubber might have been shipped to another country which had the factories to make condoms (much like the American South shipped raw cotton to British mills for a long time).
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    List of countries with at least 5,000 known COVID-19 cases.
    1. United States - 435,128 (397,442 / 22,891 / 14,795)
    2. Spain - 148,220 (85,407 / 48,021 / 14,792)
    3. Italy - 139,422 (95,262 / 26,491 / 17,669)
    4. Germany - 113,296 (64,647 / 46,300 / 2,349)
    5. France - 112,950 (80,827 / 21,254 / 10,869)
    6. China - 81,865 (1,160 / 77,370 / 3,335) 4.1%
    7. Iran - 64,586 (30,781 / 29,812 / 3,993)
    8. United Kingdom - 60,733 (53,501 / 135 / 7,097)
    9. Turkey - 38,226 (35,568 / 1,846 / 812)
    10. Belgium - 23,403 (16,482 / 4,681 / 2,240)
    11. Switzerland - 23,280 (12,585 / 9,800 / 895)
    12. Netherlands - 20,549 (18,051 / 250 / 2,248)
    13. Canada - 19,438 (14,463 / 4,548 / 427)
    14. Brazil - 16,188 (15,241 / 127 / 820)
    15. Portugal - 13,141 (12,565 / 196 / 380)
    16. Austria - 12,942 (8,157 / 4,512 / 273)
    17. South Korea - 10,423 (3,246 / 6,973 / 204) 2.8%
    18. Israel - 9,404 (8,530 / 801 / 73)
    19. Russia - 8,672 (8,029 / 580 / 63)
    20. Sweden - 8,419 (7,527 / 205 / 687)
    21. Ireland - 6,074 (5,814 / 25 / 235)
    22. Australia - 6,052 (3,189 / 2,813 / 50)
    23. Norway - 6,042 (5,909 / 32 / 101)
    24. India - 5,916 (5,232 / 506 / 178)
    25. Chile - 5,546 (4,383 / 1,115 / 48)
    26. Denmark - 5,402 (3,563 / 1,621 / 218)
    27. Czechia - 5,312 (4,980 / 233 / 99)
    28. Poland - 5,205 (4,824 / 222 / 159)

    The listings are in the format:

    X. Country - [# of known cases] ([active] / [recovered] / [dead]) [%fatality rate]

    Fatality rates are only listed for countries where the number of resolved cases (recovered + dead) exceeds the number of known active cases by a ratio of at least 2:1. Italics indicate authoritarian countries whose official statistics are suspect. Other country's statistics are suspect if their testing regimes are substandard.

    If American states were treated as individual countries seventeen of them would be on that list. New York would be ranked at #2, between "everywhere in the U.S. except New York" (#1) and Spain (#3).

    Poland has been added to the list since the last compilation.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    I have come to the conclusion that the most dangerous places in the UK are hospitals, especially accident and emergency departments. Many old people who would be safe at home are getting infected in hospital.

    I have it on good authority (being married to someone who works in one) that absolutely every effort is being made to ensure that anyone in hospital who can be at home is sent home.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Telford wrote: »
    I have come to the conclusion that the most dangerous places in the UK are hospitals, especially accident and emergency departments. Many old people who would be safe at home are getting infected in hospital.

    I have it on good authority (being married to someone who works in one) that absolutely every effort is being made to ensure that anyone in hospital who can be at home is sent home.

    I have no doubt that is true but it remains a fact that hospitals are a dangerous place for both staff and patients.
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