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Epiphanies 2019: TERFs, gender, sex, etc.

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  • Robert ArminRobert Armin Shipmate, Glory
    edited August 2020
    [redacted]
  • Celebrations among many LGBTQ people, as Graham Linehan is banned from Twitter. He is a notorious transphobic commentator, but possibly overstepped the mark, by accusing some pro-trans workers of grooming. I suppose banning is a double-edged sword.
  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    edited June 2020
    Judging by what Twitter said, it sounds like he was up to more than that, they said it was for “repeated violations of our rules against hateful conduct and platform manipulation".

    Platform manipulation includes things like
    inauthentic engagements, that attempt to make accounts or content appear more popular or active than they are; and
    coordinated activity, that attempts to artificially influence conversations through the use of multiple accounts, fake accounts, automation and/or scripting

    I've certainly seen allegations of sockpuppeting and Twitter would likely be in a position to know.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    I'm finding the main resistance to trans rights in my neck of the political woods revolves around women's spaces, and most specifically prisons. There are some reports claiming that 1 in 50 prisoners in men's prisons identify as trans and I'm getting "you want to let all them into women's prisons? Like that Karen White? You hate women!"

    This is from people in an otherwise left-leaning group. I do think the distinctive TERF element within UK feminism has a lot to do with it.
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    edited August 2020
    One of my old friends, who I didn't think was interested in gender, started posting anti-trans stuff. I argued with him for a while, but got fed up with the sheer bitterness and abusiveness of his comments. He is now raving [redacted], and saying you hate women. I don't really understand where this comes from, some kind of feminist offshoot, I suppose.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    edited July 2020
    I always wonder where the bitterness and abusiveness comes from.

    We had an excellent conversation with a good friend, a Quaker and a gay women, who was propositioned in a ladies toilet by a trans woman. She had had a bad reaction to the event, wondered whether she was transphobic since her reaction was stronger than either "I'm not attracted to you" or "this is neither the time nor the place". But there was no bitterness; more a puzzlement that her personal reaction was, she felt, out of kilter with her deeper beliefs about what was fair to trans people.

    As quetz says, it's hard to avoid getting fed up with bitterness and abusiveness. There are limits to the value of dialogue but I'm one who believes in trying until our own internal cut-off point is reached; we know it's become a waste of time.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    I don't really understand where this comes from, some kind of feminist offshoot, I suppose.
    Here is an article that talks about the origins a bit.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    I don't really understand where this comes from, some kind of feminist offshoot, I suppose.
    Here is an article that talks about the origins a bit.

    Yes, it makes sense, as my ex-friend, who has become virulently anti-trans, is an atheist and skeptic, so a focus on biology fits with him. It strikes me as a mechanical view of human beings. I'm still puzzled by the intense hatred shown.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    I don't really understand where this comes from, some kind of feminist offshoot, I suppose.
    Here is an article that talks about the origins a bit.

    Yes, it makes sense, as my ex-friend, who has become virulently anti-trans, is an atheist and skeptic, so a focus on biology fits with him. It strikes me as a mechanical view of human beings. I'm still puzzled by the intense hatred shown.

    Because once you've drunk the TERF cool-aid, anyone advocating trans rights is advocating enabling "men pretending to be women assaulting real women".
  • tclunetclune Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    I don't really understand where this comes from, some kind of feminist offshoot, I suppose.
    Here is an article that talks about the origins a bit.

    Yes, it makes sense, as my ex-friend, who has become virulently anti-trans, is an atheist and skeptic, so a focus on biology fits with him. It strikes me as a mechanical view of human beings. I'm still puzzled by the intense hatred shown.

    Because once you've drunk the TERF cool-aid, anyone advocating trans rights is advocating enabling "men pretending to be women assaulting real women".

    Well, there is a whiff of cultural appropriation about it. Is there a similar backlash to women transitioning to men?
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    I don't really understand where this comes from, some kind of feminist offshoot, I suppose.
    Here is an article that talks about the origins a bit.

    Yes, it makes sense, as my ex-friend, who has become virulently anti-trans, is an atheist and skeptic, so a focus on biology fits with him. It strikes me as a mechanical view of human beings. I'm still puzzled by the intense hatred shown.

    Because once you've drunk the TERF cool-aid, anyone advocating trans rights is advocating enabling "men pretending to be women assaulting real women".

    Yes, but it doesn't happen. I mean, obviously men assault women all the time, but do men pretend to be women, to do that? It's a fantasy. But many bigoted fantasies are full of hatred. I'm not getting into why violent fantasies are common today.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    tclune wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    I don't really understand where this comes from, some kind of feminist offshoot, I suppose.
    Here is an article that talks about the origins a bit.

    Yes, it makes sense, as my ex-friend, who has become virulently anti-trans, is an atheist and skeptic, so a focus on biology fits with him. It strikes me as a mechanical view of human beings. I'm still puzzled by the intense hatred shown.

    Because once you've drunk the TERF cool-aid, anyone advocating trans rights is advocating enabling "men pretending to be women assaulting real women".

    Well, there is a whiff of cultural appropriation about it. Is there a similar backlash to women transitioning to men?

    Not that I've noticed. Indeed, TERFs tend to avoid the subject of trans men. It's a bit inconvenient; their arguments would require that trans men used women's rather than men's facilities. I'm personally at a loss to understand why a person presenting as a woman is more threatening in a women's public loo than someone presenting as a man would be.
  • tclunetclune Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    tclune wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    I don't really understand where this comes from, some kind of feminist offshoot, I suppose.
    Here is an article that talks about the origins a bit.

    Yes, it makes sense, as my ex-friend, who has become virulently anti-trans, is an atheist and skeptic, so a focus on biology fits with him. It strikes me as a mechanical view of human beings. I'm still puzzled by the intense hatred shown.

    Because once you've drunk the TERF cool-aid, anyone advocating trans rights is advocating enabling "men pretending to be women assaulting real women".

    Well, there is a whiff of cultural appropriation about it. Is there a similar backlash to women transitioning to men?

    Not that I've noticed. Indeed, TERFs tend to avoid the subject of trans men. It's a bit inconvenient; their arguments would require that trans men used women's rather than men's facilities. I'm personally at a loss to understand why a person presenting as a woman is more threatening in a women's public loo than someone presenting as a man would be.

    Of course, if the underlying antipathy is something like that against cultural appropriation, you would not expect a similar reaction to apply to women transitioning to men. Just a thought.
  • There were some comical pictures of muscly bearded trans men posing outside women's loos. If they went in, that would probably cause more upset than trans women. But it raises interesting questions about appearance, and identity. Or my favourite German word, Selbstdarstellung, self-presentation.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    I don't really understand where this comes from, some kind of feminist offshoot, I suppose.
    Here is an article that talks about the origins a bit.

    Yes, it makes sense, as my ex-friend, who has become virulently anti-trans, is an atheist and skeptic, so a focus on biology fits with him. It strikes me as a mechanical view of human beings. I'm still puzzled by the intense hatred shown.

    Because once you've drunk the TERF cool-aid, anyone advocating trans rights is advocating enabling "men pretending to be women assaulting real women".

    Yes, but it doesn't happen. I mean, obviously men assault women all the time, but do men pretend to be women, to do that? It's a fantasy.
    tclune wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    tclune wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    I don't really understand where this comes from, some kind of feminist offshoot, I suppose.
    Here is an article that talks about the origins a bit.

    Yes, it makes sense, as my ex-friend, who has become virulently anti-trans, is an atheist and skeptic, so a focus on biology fits with him. It strikes me as a mechanical view of human beings. I'm still puzzled by the intense hatred shown.

    Because once you've drunk the TERF cool-aid, anyone advocating trans rights is advocating enabling "men pretending to be women assaulting real women".

    Well, there is a whiff of cultural appropriation about it. Is there a similar backlash to women transitioning to men?

    Not that I've noticed. Indeed, TERFs tend to avoid the subject of trans men. It's a bit inconvenient; their arguments would require that trans men used women's rather than men's facilities. I'm personally at a loss to understand why a person presenting as a woman is more threatening in a women's public loo than someone presenting as a man would be.

    Of course, if the underlying antipathy is something like that against cultural appropriation, you would not expect a similar reaction to apply to women transitioning to men. Just a thought.

    Given that TERFs don't mention cultural appropriation I'm at a loss as to why you're raising it.
  • tclunetclune Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Given that TERFs don't mention cultural appropriation I'm at a loss as to why you're raising it.

    I am attempting to understand what could motivate the feeling. My suggestion is that it may grow from the same soil. Is your confusion that you appreciate the one and not the other? I am not trying to justify the response, just identify a possible source.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    I don't really understand where this comes from, some kind of feminist offshoot, I suppose.
    Here is an article that talks about the origins a bit.

    Yes, it makes sense, as my ex-friend, who has become virulently anti-trans, is an atheist and skeptic, so a focus on biology fits with him. It strikes me as a mechanical view of human beings. I'm still puzzled by the intense hatred shown.
    Thing is, that science is more and more supporting that sex and gender are not binary and that the plumbing doesn't always match the brain.
    Gender essentialism was always bullshit, now it is becoming more obvious.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    tclune wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Given that TERFs don't mention cultural appropriation I'm at a loss as to why you're raising it.

    I am attempting to understand what could motivate the feeling. My suggestion is that it may grow from the same soil. Is your confusion that you appreciate the one and not the other? I am not trying to justify the response, just identify a possible source.
    Occam's razor would suggest plain, simple bigotry and territorial defence.
  • Yes, but it doesn't happen. I mean, obviously men assault women all the time, but do men pretend to be women, to do that? It's a fantasy. But many bigoted fantasies are full of hatred. I'm not getting into why violent fantasies are common today.

    I think you get defensive whataboutery in response to any proposed change. With respect to trans women in women's changing rooms and toilets, there seem to be a number of concerns that tend to get conflated.

    1. Trans women might be sexual predators.

    This one's really easy to deal with. It's statistical nonsense. Trans women are often the victims of sexual violence, but are I think less likely to be sexual predators than cis women. Having trans women in the women's changing room doesn't present the cis women in the changing room with an increased risk of assault, but is significantly safer for the trans woman than if you make her change in the men's room.

    2. Male rapists might disguise themselves as women in order to lurk in the women's toilets to attack someone.

    Well, I suppose they might, but they might do that anyway. And the evidence is that this is also statistical nonsense - it doesn't happen.

    3. A male rapist might lurk in the women's toilets without a disguise, but claiming to be a self-identified trans woman and so be rightfully entitled to be in the women's toilets.

    Well, OK, but right now, male paedophiles are allowed in male toilets (by virtue of being men), and there doesn't seem to be a problem with having security or police respond to a report of some creepy man hanging around in the toilets. It seems like you can respond to people claiming to be trans women hanging around in the women's toilets just the same. It's a toilet, not a social club. Normal people go in, use the facilities, and then leave.
    So it's a non-problem.

    4. Women who have been raped don't want to unexpectedly meet a penis when they're in a changing room.

    I'm quite prepared to accept that unexpectedly encountering a penis might be traumatic for someone who has been raped. I think we've already established, however, that most trans women with penes don't want to let it all hang out in public. I do think it would be courteous for a trans woman with a penis and exhibitionist tendencies to nevertheless change in a cubicle out of care for any rape victims who might be sharing the changing room with her. And again, from the trans woman's point of view, she's going to be a lot safer changing with women than changing with men.

  • RooKRooK Shipmate
    Fear is the root of all hate.
  • amyboamybo Shipmate
    I think TERF can be unlearned.

    I grew up steeped in second-wave feminism, and learned about transgender women through a TERF lens. It accused trans women of being imposters who can take on and off their identity like a mask.

    This is clearly bullshit.

    But I was able to grow and get rid of the idea by understanding unequivocally that trans women are women. I was helped along by listening to non-binary friends tell their stories.

    I offer this up hopefully, as a way to help fight TERFs.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    RooK wrote: »
    Fear is the root of all hate.
    Yeah, I don't think so. It certainly is the root of some hate and it is without doubt the tool being used to whip up the TERFs. But hate is also founded in power. The desire to create power and the desire to have more power than other groups.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    amybo wrote: »
    I think TERF can be unlearned.

    I grew up steeped in second-wave feminism, and learned about transgender women through a TERF lens. It accused trans women of being imposters who can take on and off their identity like a mask.

    This is clearly bullshit.

    But I was able to grow and get rid of the idea by understanding unequivocally that trans women are women. I was helped along by listening to non-binary friends tell their stories.

    I offer this up hopefully, as a way to help fight TERFs.
    Bravo to you, change is difficult.
  • InterloperInterloper Shipmate Posts: 9
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    RooK wrote: »
    Fear is the root of all hate.
    Yeah, I don't think so. It certainly is the root of some hate and it is without doubt the tool being used to whip up the TERFs. But hate is also founded in power. The desire to create power and the desire to have more power than other groups.

    Sometimes hate comes from the fear of losing power or privilege. Maybe some cis women fear losing exclusive rights to their toilets. After all, very few other places are guaranteed to be free from male interruptions.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Interloper wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    RooK wrote: »
    Fear is the root of all hate.
    Yeah, I don't think so. It certainly is the root of some hate and it is without doubt the tool being used to whip up the TERFs. But hate is also founded in power. The desire to create power and the desire to have more power than other groups.

    Sometimes hate comes from the fear of losing power or privilege.
    That is still fear and not what I was talking about. A common way to gain followers, or cohesion in one's followers, is to give them a target to unify against.
    Interloper wrote: »
    Maybe some cis women fear losing exclusive rights to their toilets. After all, very few other places are guaranteed to be free from male interruptions.
    I have a fear of heights, must all buildings be one-story? Fears should at least be rational before they are though of being catered to.

  • This discussion was created from comments split from: Staying and fighting versus leaving?.
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    [Thread adjusting in progress, pardon the dust or something]
  • Interloper wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    RooK wrote: »
    Fear is the root of all hate.
    Yeah, I don't think so. It certainly is the root of some hate and it is without doubt the tool being used to whip up the TERFs. But hate is also founded in power. The desire to create power and the desire to have more power than other groups.

    Sometimes hate comes from the fear of losing power or privilege. Maybe some cis women fear losing exclusive rights to their toilets. After all, very few other places are guaranteed to be free from male interruptions.

    That's circular. It presupposes that trans women aren't women.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    RooK wrote: »
    Fear is the root of all hate.
    Yeah, I don't think so. It certainly is the root of some hate and it is without doubt the tool being used to whip up the TERFs. But hate is also founded in power. The desire to create power and the desire to have more power than other groups.

    Though maybe desire for power is also ultimately rooted in fear? Fear of not having enough, of being in danger, of people and things you care about being in danger, etc.

    The version of Rook's saying I know is "Anger is the child of fear", and I think it's true. ISTM fear is rooted in bad experiences and fear of them; fear of negative possibilities; fear of bad experiences other people have had; etc.

    Maybe causes and nuances have to be acknowledged and addressed before any stable, lasting change can be made. Possibly acknowledged and addressed by all sides in a situation/conflict.

    Otherwise, fear, pain, confusion, and hurt are going to pile up, which will bring resentment, which will eventually squirm out from under the rug where it's been swept.

    And that might well damage, or even topple, any good progress that's been made.

    FWIW.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Gwai wrote: »
    [Thread adjusting in progress, pardon the dust or something]
    Just finishing off the thread adjustment, I've merged the tangent from the "staying and fighting" thread into the older thread.

  • InterloperInterloper Shipmate Posts: 9
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    That is still fear and not what I was talking about. A common way to gain followers, or cohesion in one's followers, is to give them a target to unify against.
    Agree - my point was that fear might predominate in those who do not feel very powerful or safe.
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    I have a fear of heights, must all buildings be one-story? Fears should at least be rational before they are though of being catered to.
    The best way to respond to an irrational fear is to face it in a safe environment and see just how irrational it is. Over time, the presence of trans women in women's toilets should have precisely that effect. Removing insecurity in other places (e.g. safer streets, workplaces etc.) might help as well - genuine fears can stoke irrational ones.
  • InterloperInterloper Shipmate Posts: 9
    mousethief wrote: »
    That's circular. It presupposes that trans women aren't women.
    Apologies. For the record, I regard trans women as women but I was trying to intuit what might be driving the irrational fears of those believing the opposite. Consequently, I placed an unsubstantiated and indefensible position in the mouths of others without indicating that I do not agree with it. Probably not a useful contribution to the debate. My only excuse is that I am new at this.
  • But trans women go to women's toilets, and have been doing for at least ten years. The furore about it is a fantasy.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    edited July 2020
    But trans women go to women's toilets, and have been doing for at least ten years. The furore about it is a fantasy.
    Longer than that. There are incidence throughout history of those assigned one gender but living another, not raping everything in sight.
  • Much excitement on Twitter, as Margaret Atwood made one
  • Sorry, one
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    edited August 2020
    One of her occasional pro-trans statements. This led to anti-trans disappointment, and pro-trans celebration, as they fought over the Handmaid's Tale. I have a bad feeling over this [redacted]
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    edited August 2020
    [redacted]
  • Quite amusing comments on the Handmaid's Tale, that a dystopian satire on women being used as breeding machines, does not comfortably lead to a focus on women as biological entities. In other words, it's not surprising that Atwood is pro-trans.
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    edited August 2020
    Golden Key wrote: »
    [redacted]

    It's the 'seems male' that leads to trouble. There are plenty of cis women who look quite masculine, are you going to challenge them? It was tried in N. Carolina, and abandoned, partly over this. You end up policing women, somewhat quixotic, never mind bearded trans men barging into women's loos. Of course, as we speak trans women are right now having a pee in a lady's loo, oh the horror.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited August 2020
    The corollary of "male appearing" transwomen causing alarm in women's toilets is them is that all transwomen would have to use the gents, since "male appearing" is subjective.

    Unless we have some kind of jury tell transwomen whether they're feminine enough to pass, which is ludicrous, I can't see exactly what [redacted] actually want.

    If they want everyone to use their "birth gender" toilets, then we are going to have "feminine appearing" transwomen in the gents', and transmen in the ladies' - beards and all. I don't imagine they want that either.

    The only conclusion is they want trans people to not be trans.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    edited August 2020
    Golden Key wrote: »
    [redacted]

    It's the 'seems male' that leads to trouble. There are plenty of cis women who look quite masculine, are you going to challenge them? It was tried in N. Carolina, and abandoned, partly over this. You end up policing women, somewhat quixotic, never mind bearded trans men barging into women's loos. Of course, as we speak trans women are right now having a pee in a lady's loo, oh the horror.

    Yes. There's been documented cases of cis women getting in trouble with the whole toilet thing because they didn't look feminine enough.
  • There are rumours that the govt want to stop trans people using any facilities, not in accordance with birth sex. This would produce mayhem, or trans people have to stay at home. I'm hoping it's only rumour.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    q--

    I'm not challenging anyone. Just saying that, to me, it's understandable if the reasons and circumstances are what I suggested.

    I've posted about this sort of thing before, possibly on a predecessor to this thread. But I didn't want to rake that all up; the discussion got rather...testy; and I'm still wary of Epiphanies, because of needing to be extra careful here.

    So I'll compromise:

    tl;dr: #MeToo; women do get attacked by men in restrooms (and pretty much everywhere else); I worked where this had happened, and getting into the ladies' room required a numeric code; women's restrooms are supposed to be safe places for women; I've been alarmed by a male-looking person entering the restroom, but I quickly evaluated and decided they were a she.

    Maybe you've never had cause to be afraid all the time. If so, you're lucky. I have.

    As I said in a previous discussion: trans folks are absolutely, fundamentally worth the same as non-trans folks. And they have a right to go to the bathroom. I'm fine if they keep doing whatever they've been doing.

    And, for the record: yes, I do care if boys/men get hurt, too, and I know that it happens. Some of it happens in their restrooms, too.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    Women get attacked in a lot of places that aren't restrooms.

    I don't have any statistics to hand about the likelihood of being attacked in a restroom as opposed to being attacked in all of the locations that don't have any kind of gender signifier on the door.

    But I think there are legitimate questions as to whether policing restrooms in particular is going to have much of an impact on the rate of women being attacked, unless there's some evidence that restrooms are a real hot spot for assaults.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    edited August 2020
    I didn't say anything about "policing" restrooms. I just pointed out that

    a) [redacted] it's not simply an "ewww, ick" thing;

    b) I can relate;

    c) I'm fine for trans women to keep doing whatever they're doing.

    And OF COURSE women get attacked other places. Hence one reason for being afraid all the time, to various degrees. A women's restroom is supposed to be a safe place for girls/women.
  • In effect, banning trans people from various facilities is to ban them from public life. I don't think Trump or any right wing leader would do that, at the moment. Odd link, isn't it, the right wing with some feminists.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    If that's directed at me: I'm not suggesting they be banned. I'm saying that some people have backgrounds and experiences (e.g., #MeToo) that cause internal alarms in reaction to certain things.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    If that's directed at me: I'm not suggesting they be banned. I'm saying that some people have backgrounds and experiences (e.g., #MeToo) that cause internal alarms in reaction to certain things.

    No, not you . I thought Rowling has advocated a ban on facilities, which is, in effect, a total ban. It's ironic that changing rooms near me have been unisex for decades, not because of trans, I think.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    edited August 2020
    Golden Key wrote: »
    I didn't say anything about "policing" restrooms. I just pointed out that

    a) [redacted]it's not simply an "ewww, ick" thing;

    b) I can relate;

    c) I'm fine for trans women to keep doing whatever they're doing.

    And OF COURSE women get attacked other places. Hence one reason for being afraid all the time, to various degrees. A women's restroom is supposed to be a safe place for girls/women.

    I for one wasn't intending to suggest that you DID say anything about policing restrooms, or have any of those views. But that's part of the wider context in which discussions about trans women are happening.
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