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Purgatory: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread.

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  • That’s assuming Pence is willing to sacrifice his obvious political ambitions to oblige Trump... I really don’t like him, but I suspect that once safely in power (and Trump out of it!) he’d refuse to carry out his side of the deal, and blandly deny any such nefariousness had been under contemplation.

    I'm not sure Pence is aware of this, but he really doesn't have a political future. His supposed utility to Donald Trump was to bring in the white evangelical vote and if the last four years have demonstrated anything it's that white evangelicals really like Trump because of his brash, openly racist assholery rather than in spite of it. I don't see the Trump cult shifting to support some milquetoast Mother-wived prig. Whether Pence is aware of this is another question, of course.
    Hedgehog wrote: »
    [But to be pardoned, one would have to officially acknowledge that Jared & Rudy have done something illegal that needs to be pardoned.

    If you look over Nixon's pardon you'll see nothing beyond a vague reference to "certain acts or omissions occurring before his resignation". In other words you don't necessarily need to get too detailed on what's being pardoned.
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    Hmmm, Pence as Admiral Doenitz. It's not a great role; I doubt it would appeal to him.
  • As far as we can tell, Pence accepted the running mate position in 2016 when everyone else was shying away out of pure political self interest—and has continued to hang about like a taxidermied owl doing little but prop up the president's bullshit policies mostly by presence (yeah, parroting too, but he mostly blends into the woodwork in comparison with the rest of the weirdoes). Those are the actions of a man who thinks he can use T as a stepping stone to higher office, and who is doing his best to avoid becoming associated publicly with the worst of the backsplatter, in the hopes (vain, please God) of pleasing everybody in 2024--the Trump loyalists merely by his association, and the saner people by the fact that he doesn't smell QUITE so much as the rest of the insane crew. (Me, I don't think it's going to work. I think he signed his own political death warrant by associating with T at all.)

    Nevertheless, he thinks he's got a hope. So after all these years of lying low (well, lower than the rest of the crew), why would he voluntarily fuck it up by doing T a favor with a pardon? When (as newly sworn-in ten-day president) he could be burnishing his own image, and trying to appeal to 2024 voters?

    After all, T can do very little to him at that point. When T bitches on Twitter that Pence refused to go through with the deal, Pence can do the whole "Oh dear, I'm afraid he's not quite well. That's why he resigned, in fact. A pardon was never in contemplation."
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    Crœsos wrote: »
    I don't see the Trump cult shifting to support some milquetoast Mother-wived prig.
    Do we know what his wife calls him? I suspect that the number of men who are married with children who use the term for their wives that their children use is probably greater than none.
  • Indeed, there are whole cultures where this is the norm. Mr Lamb once offered to do this to me, and I noped out of that so fast it made his head spin.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    The question is, will he try to pardon himself? Some are saying if he tries to do that the Supreme Court may have to step in.

    Again, remember Trump can only issue federal pardons.

    States still have the right to conduct and prosecute under their own laws.

    Why would the man who doesn't even need forgiveness from God seek pardon from mere mortals? :wink:
  • Anselmina wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    The question is, will he try to pardon himself? Some are saying if he tries to do that the Supreme Court may have to step in.

    Again, remember Trump can only issue federal pardons.

    States still have the right to conduct and prosecute under their own laws.

    Why would the man who doesn't even need forgiveness from God seek pardon from mere mortals? :wink:

    Trump's statements there are probably pretty close to what a lot of non-religious people believe about forgiveness. And if you include Christmas And Easter Christians in there, you're probably well into the double digits for the American population.

    Still, not the sort of thing you'd expect to be hearing from a man who claims to hold the Bible in higher regard than any other book. And can you imagine the reaction from the Republicans if a DEMOCRAT said he doesn't think he needs to ask God's forgiveness for his wrongdoings?
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Crœsos wrote: »
    . . . some milquetoast Mother-wived prig . . .

    Just popping in to nominate this description by Crœsos as Accurate Characterization of the Year.
  • I refer to my wife as Mummy when talking to the dogs...
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    When and where I grew up, parents referring to each other as some form of "Mother" and "Father" was fairly common.

    I have no idea what's behind Pence's use of the term. But I think it's much more likely to be what I and others mentioned, and less likely than a distressing kink that he announces all the time. (Plus being Republican and an Evangelical Christian--if he did have that issue, wouldn't he try to hide it? Especially in the context of his public life and work?)
  • My father would sometimes refer to my mother as "Mother", especially when speaking in the presence of the kids. I think he might have picked this up from his own father.

    John Lennon also famously referred to Yoko Ono as "Mother". But of course he was notorious for having "mommy issues". I don't know if he called his first wife Cynthia by the same name.
  • I was thinking of starting a new thread called "Pardon me?" I wasn't sure whether a presidential pardon would cover an investigation into inauguration rorts by the office of Washington DC's AG...

    Schadenfreude, Oh Shadenfreude (to the tune of Galveston by Glenn Campbell)
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    LOL re "Galveston". And I would've gone with "O Christmas Tree"/"O Tannenbaum".
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Oh-oh...

    "Newly-pardoned Mike Flynn calls for Trump to suspend the Constitution and declare martial law then order military to hold a re-run election - and claims the alternative is 'CIVIL WAR'" (Daily Mail UK).

    Yes, I know the DM is a tabloid. I came across a link while on another site. Actually, this looks like a responsible, well-written article. And there are some other American news links, just above the story, in a similar style. But feel free to look for a corroborating news site.

    Flynn is associated with a "We The People" convention, which is reportedly linked to the Tea Party group. There's a pic of a poster from WTP that details what they want. To read it, you need to view the image separately and enlarge it a lot. It's still a little difficult to read. But it says their website is We The People Convention dot org. Probably a better copy there.

    Question: a pardon only covers what the recipient has already done, right? So if Flynn crosses a legal line *now* in the above, the pardon won't apply, right?

    Thx.
  • Pardons can be magnificently vague (think Ford/Nixon). A pre-emptive pardon (effectively granting immunity) need not explicitly acknowledge specific guilt. Although it is all rather novel in the American context.
  • But wouldn't a preemptive pardon cover any crimes the recipient may have committed in the past for which he has not yet been charged? Not new crimes that he may commit in the future.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    edited December 2020
    But wouldn't a preemptive pardon cover any crimes the recipient may have committed in the past for which he has not yet been charged? Not new crimes that he may commit in the future.

    There are very few limits on what's covered in a presidential pardon, but one of those limits is that it can't preemptively cover acts that haven't happened yet. Other limits are that it doesn't cover criminal charges by state governments or suits in civil court.
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    Would a pardon be valid if it turned out the recipient had paid (bribed is such an ugly word) the President to give it to them?
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    For that matter if a President didn't care about the spirit of the law but only what the letter would let him get away with (suspend your disbelief) would it be actually illegal to accept a bribe to pardon someone? It's not one of the President's duties.
  • What was the original purpose of Presidential Pardons? I assume it's modelled on the days of European Absolute Monarchs (and despots in many other nations) who decided most things and when democracy was much less of a thing. But even if so, what was the purpose in a new democratic nation? Was the legal system so flaky and susceptible to unfairness and corruption that it needed oversight by someone who was beyond question because a corrupt president was inconceivable as a majority had trusted him enough to vote for him?
  • Dafyd wrote: »
    Would a pardon be valid if it turned out the recipient had paid (bribed is such an ugly word) the President to give it to them?

    During his confirmation hearing Attorney General Bill Barr was asked whether a president can offer a pardon in exchange for a witness' silence and Barr claimed that would be a crime. I'm guessing bribery would fall under the same general understanding of obstruction of justice.
    Dafyd wrote: »
    For that matter if a President didn't care about the spirit of the law but only what the letter would let him get away with (suspend your disbelief) would it be actually illegal to accept a bribe to pardon someone? It's not one of the President's duties.

    Bribery is one of the things explicitly spelled out as a presidential no-no in the Constitution's impeachment clause (Art. II, § 4).
    What was the original purpose of Presidential Pardons? I assume it's modelled on the days of European Absolute Monarchs (and despots in many other nations) who decided most things and when democracy was much less of a thing. But even if so, what was the purpose in a new democratic nation? Was the legal system so flaky and susceptible to unfairness and corruption that it needed oversight by someone who was beyond question because a corrupt president was inconceivable as a majority had trusted him enough to vote for him?

    The general reasoning was presented by Alexander Hamilton in Federalist #74, with a little bit of supplemental explanation in Federalist #69 (also by Hamilton). Some of it is probably a holdover from monarchy, but it fits very well within the American concept of "checks and balances" with the pardon as an executive "check" on the judiciary.

    One of uses of pardons that the Framers imagined was the use of pardons to provide a kind of amnesty in the wake of a revolt or rebellion, a possible inducement for rebels to surrender. George Washington used the pardon in exactly this way after the Whiskey Rebellion.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Golden Key wrote: »
    LOL re "Galveston". And I would've gone with "O Christmas Tree"/"O Tannenbaum".

    As I remember the music to Oh Christmas Tree is the same as The Communist Anthem. That would be saying something

  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited December 2020
    Hugal wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    LOL re "Galveston". And I would've gone with "O Christmas Tree"/"O Tannenbaum".

    As I remember the music to Oh Christmas Tree is the same as The Communist Anthem. That would be saying something

    The song you're thinking of is The Red Flag. I believe it's more associated with the British Labour Party than with Communists, though the latter might sing it as well. If they do, I would think it's only in the UK.

    The Internationale is the song more typically regarded as the Communist anthem, but I know for a fact that it's used by other left-wing groups as well. As the title would suggest, it is sung around the world.

  • "O Tannenbaum" is also the melody of the Boy Scout Hymn, at least in the US.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    "O Tannenbaum" is also the melody of the Boy Scout Hymn, at least in the US.
    I know it as the Scout’s Vesper song/hymn. It’s also “O Maryland, My Maryland.”

    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Schadenfreude, Oh Shadenfreude (to the tune of Galveston by Glenn Campbell)
    Golden Key wrote: »
    LOL re "Galveston". And I would've gone with "O Christmas Tree"/"O Tannenbaum".
    Oh, no! Just go with “Schadenfreude” from Avenue Q. :wink:

  • I get the impression 45 is more interested in proving voting fraud than running the country,
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    I get the impression 45 is more interested in proving voting fraud than running the country,
    He is more interested in alleging voting fraud than running the country. He has no interest in proving it. That takes too much work. And those pesky facts.
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    edited December 2020
    He never WAS interested in running the country. Do keep up :wink:
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    What LC said.
  • What GK said.
  • That certainly seems to be the case, as according to news reports on this side of the Pond, Trump is nowhere to be seen, and is keeping very quiet about the awful increase in the daily Covid-19 death toll in the US.

    Previous presidents have been *consolers-in-chief* at times of great national disaster, but this one? A complete waste of space.
  • Trump is nowhere to be seen, and is keeping very quiet about the awful increase in the daily Covid-19 death toll in the US.

    And is in fact doing his best to increase it even more.
  • O yes - the *Christmas Parties*. Sounds as though they'll be more like delayed mass suicides...
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    The question is, will he try to pardon himself? Some are saying if he tries to do that the Supreme Court may have to step in.

    Again, remember Trump can only issue federal pardons.

    States still have the right to conduct and prosecute under their own laws.

    Why would the man who doesn't even need forgiveness from God seek pardon from mere mortals?
    Hugal wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    LOL re "Galveston". And I would've gone with "O Christmas Tree"/"O Tannenbaum".

    As I remember the music to Oh Christmas Tree is the same as The Communist Anthem. That would be saying something

    Nothing here that a good Christian Socialist couldn't sing with a clear conscience.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    As I remember the music to Oh Christmas Tree is the same as The Communist Anthem. That would be saying something

    A true fusion of communism and Christmas music can be found here [video].
  • Anselmina wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    The question is, will he try to pardon himself? Some are saying if he tries to do that the Supreme Court may have to step in.

    Again, remember Trump can only issue federal pardons.

    States still have the right to conduct and prosecute under their own laws.

    Why would the man who doesn't even need forgiveness from God seek pardon from mere mortals?
    Hugal wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    LOL re "Galveston". And I would've gone with "O Christmas Tree"/"O Tannenbaum".

    As I remember the music to Oh Christmas Tree is the same as The Communist Anthem. That would be saying something

    Nothing here that a good Christian Socialist couldn't sing with a clear conscience.

    I pause slightly over the use of "sacred". On the other hand, being able to sing that verse while glaring at Blair more than makes up for that.
  • Oh myyyyy....
  • Anselmina wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    The question is, will he try to pardon himself? Some are saying if he tries to do that the Supreme Court may have to step in.

    Again, remember Trump can only issue federal pardons.

    States still have the right to conduct and prosecute under their own laws.

    Why would the man who doesn't even need forgiveness from God seek pardon from mere mortals?

    To keep his sorry ass out of jail.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Yes it was the Red Flag I stand corrected.
  • To keep his sorry ass out of jail.

    @mousethief , do you honestly think he believes it could possibly happen to him?
  • Trump is nowhere to be seen, and is keeping very quiet about the awful increase in the daily Covid-19 death toll in the US.

    And is in fact doing his best to increase it even more.
    USA Today today has a report of outbreaks of COVID amongst elected officials. To nobody's great surprise, it strikes Republicans more frequently than Dems.

    It is almost like the Republicans are not taking simple common-sense precautions.

  • You shock me.
  • Yes. Who knew?
  • Not respecting science or expertise and refusing to take health or safety advice do seem much more likely characteristics of right-wingers.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    They’ll presumably be even more annoyed if you tell them they’re in the running for a Darwin Award, because intelligent design over evolution right ?
  • Hedgehog wrote: »

    If I were wicked, I'd say: "So there is a God, and he does answer prayers."
  • NicoleMR wrote: »
    To keep his sorry ass out of jail.

    @mousethief , do you honestly think he believes it could possibly happen to him?

    I don't think he is that divorced from reality that he would think prosecutors investigating him in New York would have no power to prosecute him.

    His delusions might lead him to think that it's all a Democratic set-up because Crooked Hillary did worse and they're not investigating her. But I think he'd still recognize, as a matter of basic realpolitik, that the prosecutors very much have the ability to put him in jail.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    I don't think he is that divorced from reality that he would think prosecutors investigating him in New York would have no power to prosecute him.

    His delusions might lead him to think that it's all a Democratic set-up because Crooked Hillary did worse and they're not investigating her. But I think he'd still recognize, as a matter of basic realpolitik, that the prosecutors very much have the ability to put him in jail.

    The issue is that Trump's reality is not the reality you and I are accustomed to dealing with. Those who are very, very rich (or at least manage to convince others they are) or manage to acquire substantial influence over others often really can and do escape consequences, and they grow accustomed to doing so.

    My daughter, on reaching high-school age, acquired a full 4-year scholarship to a world-renowned US prep school and ended up attending school with sons and daughters of people whose names you'd recognize. You'd be amazed at what nefariousness an adolescent member of a rich, powerful family can get away with that would land your kid or mine in Juvy Hall.
  • Ohher wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    I don't think he is that divorced from reality that he would think prosecutors investigating him in New York would have no power to prosecute him.

    His delusions might lead him to think that it's all a Democratic set-up because Crooked Hillary did worse and they're not investigating her. But I think he'd still recognize, as a matter of basic realpolitik, that the prosecutors very much have the ability to put him in jail.

    The issue is that Trump's reality is not the reality you and I are accustomed to dealing with. Those who are very, very rich (or at least manage to convince others they are) or manage to acquire substantial influence over others often really can and do escape consequences, and they grow accustomed to doing so.

    My daughter, on reaching high-school age, acquired a full 4-year scholarship to a world-renowned US prep school and ended up attending school with sons and daughters of people whose names you'd recognize. You'd be amazed at what nefariousness an adolescent member of a rich, powerful family can get away with that would land your kid or mine in Juvy Hall.

    Yes, but this isn't quite like some prep-school brat slapping around a stripper and then avoiding arrest by telling the police who his father is. Trump is already the subject of a highly publicized prosecutorial investigation, and if it has gotten this far, it would be pretty reckless of him to assume that there is zero chance of it going further.

    There's a reason Nixon thought it prudent to secure a pardon from Ford: he obviously didn't think his status as the most powerful man in the world would be enough to save him from the slammer.
  • stetson wrote: »
    There's a reason Nixon thought it prudent to secure a pardon from Ford: he obviously didn't think his status as the most powerful man in the world would be enough to save him from the slammer.

    That's one way of looking at it. Another is that his status as the most powerful man in the world did save him from the slammer, and Ford's pardon is the tangible form that privilege took.
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