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Purgatory: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread.

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  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote:

    I am an economic numbskull, but I don't like the growing gap between rich and poor in Australia. My understanding is that the USA has always had a pretty massive gap

    Nope, up until Ronald Reagan the income differential between a CEO and the average laborer of his company (and the CEO was usually a "he") was about 15 times. Now it is about 530 times.

    The answer to this question depends on what you mean by "always". In the early 1940s the U.S. underwent what economists call The Great Compression, where the incomes of wealthy Americans got a lot closer to the incomes of the rest of Americans. This persisted until The Great Divergence in the late 1970s/early 1980s when American income inequality rebounded to about where it was prior to The Great Depression.

    The median age in the U.S. is 37.9 years, so that's someone who would have entered the full-time workforce in 1998 at the earliest. For them the current level of inequality has "always" been the case. The median age of a Social Security retiree is 71.6 years old. They probably entered the workforce between 1964 and 1969 and left it between 2011 and 2014. For them the current level of income inequality has not "always" been so. For historians the period from 1940 to 1980 is something of an anomaly against an otherwise pretty consistent background of much greater income inequality. If their "always" goes back far enough it will include workers who were outright slaves.
  • sionisaissionisais Shipmate
    jedijudy wrote: »
    sionisais wrote: »

    Banks believe him, women believe him; he says what they want to hear (ie, that nothing is their fault). AFAICT he is no more decent than Nixon and has none of Tricky Dicky's intellect. None. Not even a little.

    This woman doesn't believe him. Not even a tiny bit. What I would like to hear him say is that he's been wrong about everything he's done, and will be immediately rectifying the evil policies he has put in place. It would mean that he would actually have to do some work.

    I know. Dream on.

    I know you don't and there's no reason why you should because Trump is a mysoginist and a lousy businessman (for starters). It was an illustration that those who should oppose him most actually back him! Before he could apologise and put things right however he would have to acquire some humility.
  • Well I'm very disappointed that nobody has given me an opening to crack my joke, because I thought Keynesian Economics was about buying up mustard futures.

    Thanks for your post Gramps. I always thought the effect of Reaganomics wasn't as bad in the US because things were already pretty woeful for workers. Croesus' post might justify the view that he in fact ushered in another era of Hoovervilles.

    I'm sure nobody is laughing as hard as me, but my commemorative Trump/Kim coin will ship on 1 August. It was $80 including $60 shipping. Massive rip-off but I'll pay anything for a quirky laugh. :tongue:
  • Wesley JWesley J Circus Host
    edited June 2018
    sionisais wrote: »
    I know you don't and there's no reason why you should because Trump is a mysoginist and a lousy businessman (for starters). It was an illustration that those who should oppose him most actually back him! Before he could apologise and put things right however he would have to acquire some humility.

    And humanity.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    This was supposed to be added to the previous post, but edit time had expired.

    Did you see the picture of OO receiving the letter?

    Three questions

    1) Wasn't the letter supposed to be sealed?

    2. Why is OO showing the backside of the letter?

    3. Do you really believe the North Koreans would have used such a large envelope?
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    That link was blocked. Is this picture similar?


  • I think we could start a Circus thread as to what we think the contents of the letter said.

    Meanwhile, lawyers for the current occupant of the White House appear to be claiming that he can't obstruct justice because he's justice itself personified.

    Beam us all up now, God. I think we're ready.
  • Thanks for the trade war. Let's target retaliation on products from states which support Golden Turnip because we hate your yogurt, pickles, chocolate, ketchup, soya sauce.
  • Come on now. Why should working class Americans, many of whom are from so-called minorities, support free trade? Spell it out. I really have no idea why anyone who is not fabulously rich should consider free trade to be good for their hip pocket. If people like the person recently labelled a feckless female sexual organ (or similar) had their products made and manufactured in the USA, working class people would have more jobs, wouldn't they? The stuff would be more expensive, but it is useless pap, so that doesn't matter. It should only be bought be the stupid rich.

    Free trade promotes wealth creation and improved standards of living for people around the world except for one group: Working class people in developed countries. They lose jobs and lose benefits as companies seek the flexibility they need to compete in a global economy. The managerial classes don't. The owners don't. They get wealthier, the job losses caused by flexibilty don't extend above middle managers.

    Free trade is an issue, I think, on which people should be saying, "Yeah, why do we have to elect a complete off-the-grid arse to get our Government to finally do something in our own interests instead of in the interests of the individuals who are making squillions while reducing benefits and services to me and oh look my manufacturing job just disappeared."

    WHY IS IT IN THE INTERESTS OF WORKERS TO SUPPORT FREE TRADE?

    Now I don't know much economics. I strongly suspect that it is a tool to bamboozle workers into accepting that the rich getting richer is the only way for them to do better. But I am not completely closed off on this issue. How could I be, given the version of economics we have been forced fed for 30 years to make worker foie gras out of our wages and conditions.
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    hosting/
    Thanks for the trade war. Let's target retaliation on products from states which support Golden Turnip because we hate your yogurt, pickles, chocolate, ketchup, soya sauce.

    Using we and you from one nationality to another, together with the word hate is the kind of posting that provides fuel for a pond (or 49th parallel) war. If this was intended in jest, it was a bad idea. Stop referring to the nationals of any single country as a uniform whole.

    /hosting
  • Wesley JWesley J Circus Host
    [..] Meanwhile, lawyers for the current occupant of the White House appear to be claiming that he can't obstruct justice because he's justice itself personified. [...]

    Sorry, Miss Amanda - can't access your NY Daily News link from Europe, probably due to the recent upgrade in Data Protection laws. Just sayin'.

  • Here's a Guardian Australia Article on the recent Roseanne issue.

    I find this quote very interesting (Ruth I think made a similar point to me before the election), which follows on from a paragraph affirming that cancelling the show was the right choice, and why:
    All that said, race is not the only social hierarchy. Disrespectful images of the working-class whites are part and parcel of the cultural disrespect that paved the path for a demagogue like Trump. What my crowd so often misses is that Trump’s outlandish behavior makes him more attractive to many of his supporters. They have given up on government because it has stood by under both Democratic and Republican administrations as the American dream disappeared: virtually all Americans born in the 1940s earned more than their parents; today, it’s less than half. The rust belt revolt that brought both Brexit and Trump reflects rotting factories, dying towns, and a half century of empty promises. Those left behind are very, very angry; Trump is their middle finger. The more he outrages coastal elites, the more his followers gloat they got our goat. Finally, they are being noticed.

    Where I work, we do training that tries to make Disability Support Workers recognise the power imbalance between us and our clients. This is obvious to me, but I am legally trained. What the managers don't get (I think) is that my colleagues don't feel like they are in a powerful position. It makes no sense to them to say that they are powerful, even compared to our clients, because they just don't perceive themselves like that. And while they are wrong, they also kind of make sense. They are low-paid, often insecure workers, often recent immigrants, and their superiors wield power over them. How could they possibly be powerful people?

    I've ordered the book.

  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    It’s a staged photo, I doubt that was the ‘real’ envelope. All is for show, from both sides.
  • That envelope episode is nothing more than further evidence that Trump can't open his mouth without lying. *snore*
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    WHY IS IT IN THE INTERESTS OF WORKERS TO SUPPORT FREE TRADE?
    Starting new thread.

  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Come on now. Why should working class Americans, many of whom are from so-called minorities, support free trade? Spell it out.

    Leaving aside free trade generally for the related thread, these particular tariffs imposed by the Trump administration are going to be job killers. They're on intermediate inputs (things that are used to make other things). Making the end products produced with more expensive aluminum and steel will reduce demand for those products, thus reducing employment in those industries. A lot more Americans work in the auto industry or build appliances than work in the domestic steel industry.

    And this isn't idle speculation either! George W. Bush did the same thing with steel tariffs in 2002 and had to remove them earlier than expected because it tanked American job numbers.
    Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.) tried to use that history as a cautionary tale last month. In a televised White House meeting with Trump, he described how after Bush’s tariffs were put in place, auto-parts manufacturers left the U.S. so they could make their parts with cheaper steel and then ship them back to the U.S. — cutting jobs for American workers while also avoiding tariffs.

    "We found there were 10 times as many people in steel-using industries as there were in steel-producing industries,” Alexander said. “They lost more jobs than exist in the steel industry."

    Note that this article was written back in March, when it was still expected that American allies like Canada would be exempted from steel tariffs.

    For the record, according to this Department of Commerce document [PDF] these are the top ten countries from which the U.S. imports steel, in order of descending quantity:
    • Canada
    • Brazil
    • South Korea
    • Mexico
    • Russia
    • Tukey
    • Japan
    • Germany
    • Taiwan*
    • China
    These ten account for 77% of the steel imported by the U.S. (not including the steel that is imported in finished or semi-finished form). Most of these qualify as "developed countries", which is expected since you usually don't have a steel export sector without a certain level of development.


    *For the moment I'm leaving aside the question of whether Taiwan constitutes a "country", properly speaking.
  • Wesley J wrote: »
    [..] Meanwhile, lawyers for the current occupant of the White House appear to be claiming that he can't obstruct justice because he's justice itself personified. [...]

    Sorry, Miss Amanda - can't access your NY Daily News link from Europe,

    Sorry . . . try CNN instead.
  • Wesley JWesley J Circus Host
    Thanks, Miss Amanda!
  • Crœsos wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Come on now. Why should working class Americans, many of whom are from so-called minorities, support free trade? Spell it out.

    Leaving aside free trade generally for the related thread, these particular tariffs imposed by the Trump administration are going to be job killers..

    I think Trump automatically assumes that if someone agreed to a deal then they must have got the better end of it - to that end every deal made is up for review.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Now that the Fake King has declared he has the power to pardon himself and that he cannot obstruct justice because he is the chief law enforcement officer, I can't wait until he crosses that red line. And he will.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    So T is like a deluded person who thinks they're both God and Satan? Forever forgiving themself?
  • A pardon is required only of something needs pardoning.

    A perjury trap is only a perjury trap if you commit perjury.

    I was scared during the 1970s Nixon things. We were watching CBC TV of American bombing of Vietnam at the same time. Somehow I feel more scared of this one. World watches unhappy and sleeping uneasily. Again.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Apparently Judge Jeanine (Fox News) wants to become Attorney General and Trump has been talking to her about a top job. Could you make this up?
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Is Judge Jeanine one of those TV judges that does small claims cases? If so, *surely* Judge Judy should be the AG!
    (wink)
  • Bloody hell. I can see it happening.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Judge Jeanine.

    I rest my case.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    I don't think she can be confirmed. There are too many Republicans that have soured on the Fake King's antics.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Apparently Trump is nervous about the upcoming G-7 summit. The solution? Add a friendly face to the table!
    “You know, whether you like it or not, and it may not be politically correct, but we have a world to run and the G7, which used to be the G8, they threw Russia out, they can let Russia come back in, because we should have Russia at the negotiating table,” Trump told reporters before leaving Washington.

    For those who might not recall, Russia was thrown out of the G-8 for the annexation of Crimea. He also said he was "Russia's worst nightmare", which I guess was an attempt at humor.
  • Now that the Commander of Cheese is out of the country, I think we should fulfill his campaign promise -- Build the wall! Close the borders! Quick, before he gets back!

  • Maybe he'll spit on the sidewalk or chew gum in an elevator while in Singapore and be imprisoned.
  • Justin Trudeau is indignant tweets he. Trudeau and Macron will be speaking French in front and behind him. Will this make him indignant too? At the G6 + this guy.
  • Trudeau and Macron will be speaking French in front and behind him.
    Bad manners, but then again he doesn't deserve to be treated with good manners.
  • Justin Trudeau is indignant tweets he. Trudeau and Macron will be speaking French in front and behind him. Will this make him indignant too? At the G6 + this guy.
    When Russia first joined, the group was called the G7+1. Last week(?) I believe that it was Bruno Le Maire (French Minister of the Economy) who described it as G6+1.

  • Trudeau and Macron will be speaking French in front and behind him.
    Bad manners, but then again he doesn't deserve to be treated with good manners.

    Do any of the other leaders speak French? If so, this might betoken the return to French as the language of diplomacy! John Kerry is fluent, though.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    I believe Merkel does, maybe even May. Since Conte (Italy) studied in classical universities, I am pretty sure he can speak French as well. I have no information about Abe.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Maybe he'll spit on the sidewalk or chew gum in an elevator while in Singapore and be imprisoned.

    They also publicly flog people for that sort of misbehavior. Not wishing that on T. But it's another sort of possible disaster--possibly worse than prison.
  • No, they don't. Judicial caning exists, but not in public and not for offences like that.

    The pussy grabbing, now - that would be punishable by caning in Singapore. So Mr President had better watch his step, nonetheless.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Barnabas62 wrote: »
    Judge Jeanine.

    I rest my case.

    I suggested Judge Judy. Here's her show's site.
    And here's her Wikipedia page.

    She's quite a thing. I'd love to see her take on T, one on one. But I don't know her politics.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Re corporal punishment in Singapore:

    --Per Merriam-Webster:

    1 a : to beat with or as if with a rod or whip.

    The sailors were flogged for attempting a mutiny.


    --The stories we got over here about being caned for leaving used chewing gum behind are said to be misreported.

    --My impression has been that the canings we heard about here were in public, and outside. I *think* there was news film of one. (FYI: Some Americans, like Michael Fay have been caned.)

    --I'm not going to give direct links, because the H/As would have to read about some really horrible stuff--torture, basically.

    But I did searches with Duck Duck Go, using various combinations of "flog cane Singapore corporal punishment public". Topical Wikipedia articles include "Vandalism Act" (of Singapore); "Chewing gum ban in Singapore"; "Michael Fay"; and "Caning in Singapore".

    Do not ever do graffiti in Singapore.

    --Caning can cause long-term physical and psychological damage.

  • None of which validates your original statement.
  • Actually a bit of torture might do the current occupant of the White House some good.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    MSNBC Headline says it all: Trump on World Stage: Arrive late. Insult Host. Leave Early Alienate Allies.

    Anyone want to invite the Fake King to dinner?
  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host
    Golden Key wrote: »
    --I'm not going to give direct links, because the H/As would have to read about some really horrible stuff--torture, basically.

    This Host thanks you very much.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    Barnabas62 wrote: »
    Judge Jeanine.

    I rest my case.

    I suggested Judge Judy. Here's her show's site.
    And here's her Wikipedia page.

    She's quite a thing. I'd love to see her take on T, one on one. But I don't know her politics.

    I think Judge Judy is a bully. A bully on the bench or in any other position of power is a worry. Bully magistrates are a nightmare for the lawyers appearing before them.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    MSNBC Headline says it all: Trump on World Stage: Arrive late. Insult Host. Leave Early Alienate Allies.

    Anyone want to invite the Fake King to dinner?

    Taking him to Burger King, I presume? (I'm NOT offering.)
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I wonder? Does the mad Trump espy a new world order of rapprochement with China and Russia and relegating Europe and Canada to the second or third division? Or maybe he thinks that even the possibility will make others more amenable. It's America first, folks.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    MSNBC Headline says it all: Trump on World Stage: Arrive late. Insult Host. Leave Early Alienate Allies.

    Anyone want to invite the Fake King to dinner?

    Taking him to Burger King, I presume? (I'm NOT offering.)

    Do they still give paper crowns to small children? The Commander of Cheese would love that!

  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Judge Judy strikes me as a bully as well. But she's docile compared with Judge Jeanine.

    As for Trump and the G7, the other G7 members must be pulling their hair out. How do you solve a problem like the Donald? With friends like him, who needs enemies.
  • Pangolin GuerrePangolin Guerre Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    What I don't understand about Trump's post-G6+1 comments about Trudeau is that Trudeau has been (remarkably) consistent about what Canada's reaction to the American imposition of steel and aluminum tariffs would be, and what the reaction to the American expansion of tariffs would be. I wasn't in the room during their private discussion, but reading between the lines of their yuckfest for the press after their sidebar meeting is that Trump has pulled a 'bait-and-switch', as Le Monde once put it, "pour [for] le back-home." Not insignificantly, Trudeau set the deadline as 1 July, our national holiday (except in Quebec, where many refer to it as "moving day" - which I always thought had a hidden message).

    Interestingly, Trump has latched on to a theme used in Canada by those who dislike Trudeau: feminising language, such as "act[ing] so meek and mild", "weak". It's an attempt to emasculate and thereby discredit Trudeau. This, of course, has its roots in an essentially misogynistic world view. Simply because he's handsome, has good hair, and a slight lisp, he is therefore "suspect", less a man, and by extension, less a politician. (BTW, there was a similar whisper campaign in certain circles against his father, which went nowhere, as history demonstrates.) There are grounds for criticising Trudeau, but this is schoolyard bullshit.
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