There is but one NRM, though in two locations. One should neither confound the locations nor divide the substance. For there is one location named York, and another named Shildon. York is not Shildon, neither is Shildon York, yet they are not two Museums but one Museum.
Everlasting Wossname awaits whoever does not subscribe to this True Faith, once revealed.
Everlasting travel by rail replacement bus.
Sadness.
Indeed. Especially when it involves a full minibus at the height of summer all the way down the A9 from Wick to Inverness instead of trundling down the Far North line.
The only time I visited Swindon (early 1980s) the GWR museum was still in a converted chapel, which was, I think, Methodist. Just for once, the overused term "iconic" was almost appropriate, especially for the sublime City of Truro and Lode Star. (I know Methodists don't do icons, but you know what I mean).
The Ds and the very similar Es, designed by Robert Surtees and Harry Wainwright (and rebuilt by Richard Maunsell) were some of the most elegant locomotives ever to grace the rails of England!
It is said that Surtees was the mechanical man, designing the basic locomotives (several classes - all excellent) built during Wainwright's tenure as Chief Mechanical Engineer, but that Wainwright was the artist responsible for the beautiful looks and gorgeous livery scheme.
There is, I believe, an official photograph of a D class locomotive, captioned *Designer - R R Surtees*...
I can recall seeing some of the former SECR classes - the Cs and Hs in particular - albeit in the latter day black livery. The Hs (044T passenger engines) were lined out, and looked quite smart when (or if) clean!
Here's an odd question. I know about the remaining steam locos ending up on Barry Island in '68 etc etc, and I'm aware of some oddities which made it into preservation much earlier (Fire Queen for example, and then later the Ffestiniog engines) - but who preserved mainline locos from the Victorian period, as they began to be withdrawn in the early 20th C? And where? It seems someone did, as a few examples of early types survive.
Wrong period - I was thinking of the K and K1 class tank locos, which became the "Rivers".
Ah. I did wonder if you actually meant the River class.
We don't Talk about Them.
Yes, they originated on the SECR, but later (in Southern times) fell out of favour. They were relieved of their tanks, given nice tenders, and became Really Useful Engines. Some lasted right up to the end of steam in Kent - I can recall seeing some at Our Shed as late as 1965/66.
Here's an odd question. I know about the remaining steam locos ending up on Barry Island in '68 etc etc, and I'm aware of some oddities which made it into preservation much earlier (Fire Queen for example, and then later the Ffestiniog engines) - but who preserved mainline locos from the Victorian period, as they began to be withdrawn in the early 20th C? And where? It seems someone did, as a few examples of early types survive.
AIUI, some of the railway companies themselves set some of their older locomotives aside for preservation, but they were kept safe in sheds, perhaps coming out for an exhibition for a few days.
Alas, they didn't take too kindly to the rather shaky Southern track - often unstable on their home metals, there were no problems when tested on better track elsewhere...
A propos of nothing very much, I have an SE&CR chair dated 1908 sat outside the back door. Back in 1987-88 I did two weeks at the end of school summer term volunteering on the Kent & East Sussex Railway's extension to Northiam, clearing lineside trees so that a diesel locomotive and crane could get down to Bodiam and start removing the 75lb rail it had been relaid with. I found this thing and, over the course of one of the weeks, slowly lugged it back along the trackbed to Northiam station to take home. Given that I was a scrawny little scrote and it must weigh a good half-hundredweight, if not more, I must have been nuts!
Mind you, he would have been a brave (or foolish) man who tried sending anything much larger than a Terrier down that section of the KESR.
Still, your herculean efforts were rewarded by the eventual re-opening to Bodiam, and I understand that the rebuilding of the line back to the junction at Robertsbridge is a work-in-progress.
Still, your herculean efforts were rewarded by the eventual re-opening to Bodiam, and I understand that the rebuilding of the line back to the junction at Robertsbridge is a work-in-progress.
So I gather - sadly, there's a housing estate at Tenterden St Michaels and a... buggered if I know what it is now, I know what it was in 1988!* across the line near Headcorn, so it'll never run all the way to Headcorn again.
One day, one day I will ride that line, but I'm sad to say I've never been back since 1988.
*apparently it's Sunmagic Juices - so a vegan version of the old Unigate dairy plant, I guess.
The Ds and the very similar Es, designed by Robert Surtees and Harry Wainwright (and rebuilt by Richard Maunsell) were some of the most elegant locomotives ever to grace the rails of England!
I looked at a lot of links following on from BF's SECR K and K1 class.
I didn't know that some of the SECR lines were of such poor construction, as built in a hurry, due to competiting with new lines by other companies! Seems they even used pepples for ballast, which of course doesn't really work; no wonder they had limited speeds and axle loads! The K and K1 locos appear to have had some constructive errors as well. The Sevenoaks railway accident story is hair-raising!
From SPK's Canadian pictures, I was especially impressed by the size of this beast!
Finally, as Gee D says, seeing 'the powerful mechanism' is clearly a thing to behold; I once happened to ride, on the next track and for several miles, along a preserved German 01 Class, when I was travelling on a regular passenger train! I even have a video to prove it!
However, speaking of European Continental trains and 'powerful mechanisms': before WW2, the Germans had several fully-enclosed huge steam engines, such as DRG Class 05 - one even with cab-forward design! - or partially enclosed ones, like Class 01.10 or Class 06. (Class 05 held the speed record for steam engines until beaten by Mallard.) To be frank, not sure how practical fully enclosed steam engines were, even with the innovative roller shutters shown on Class 05.
The most impressive steam engine design though I have ever encountered, and which I find intringuing to this day, is the German steam motor prototype Class 19.1001, as here on German-language Wiki (English Wiki has no images), or as a collection of pictures here on YouTube (suggestion: turn off the sound).
What do others think of such inventions and innovations?
Was it the SE&CR who built the Hastings line with the narrow tunnels? Or the LC&D? I can't remember when I saw any last, but I do recall some old parcel vans that stood at Oxford station 20-odd years ago and the moment I saw them I thought "Hastings line stock!"
I think the idea (as per Oliver Bulleid) was always to produce a steam locomotive that could run as reliably as a car, with minimal servicing, hence enclosing or shrouding moving parts. However the nature of the beast precludes that. Interestingly enough the most efficient servicing was probably that carried out on "simple" locomotives in the 1950s by the Norfolk & Western in its "lubritoriums".
There has also been the constant quest to improve either balancing of reciporocating parts and/or thermal efficiciency; here the improvements were often gained at the cost of great complexity. The 1930s Germans were certainly onto something with locos such as the Class 19; today, with the improvements in materials science and computer analysis, they might have got much further.
Yes, I agree that the majesty of the mechanism is something which endears steam locomotives to people (and running alongside the 01 must have been awesome, especially if unexpected). However the thought of these heavy girders (aka connecting and coupling rods) flying around several times per sscond does induce a certain concern in me!
BTW everyone says that "Mallard" was the fastest steam loco of all time. But this is based on one-quarter mile reading of a dynanometer car roll: careful analysis suggests that the speed was no greater than 124.5 mph. In any case I consider the run of the Class 05 to be far superior as high speed was sustained over some distance on level track.
Here's an odd question. I know about the remaining steam locos ending up on Barry Island in '68 etc etc, and I'm aware of some oddities which made it into preservation much earlier (Fire Queen for example, and then later the Ffestiniog engines) - but who preserved mainline locos from the Victorian period, as they began to be withdrawn in the early 20th C? And where? It seems someone did, as a few examples of early types survive.
This is not an easy question to answer, but there are some trends:
for the really early stuff, it was more accident than anything else - Rocket, Puffing Billy etc went to the Patent Office and then the Science Museum; just because they were interesting survivors. Lion was doing work as a stationary boiler in Liverpool Docks until IIRC the 20s when it was fished out and restored.
The LMS preserved Hardwicke at withdrawal because she was a record breaker.
Enter the North Eastern Railway...
because the Stockton and Darlington was on their patch, they had a good collection of really early stuff, which went to their successors the LNER. They had a programme of keeping things, which none of the other railways really did. The LMS probably second, but their collection was very small. The GWR did preserve some broad gauge locomotives, but the Churchward (IIRC) had them cut up because they were taking up space at Swindon works. The change from broad gauge means that the GWR did a wholesale renewal (pretty much) around the turn of the century and very little survives from before then because they didn't think it was worth keeping. The Southern had basically no programme.
Ironically the GWR has ended up as about the best represented railway in preservation *because* so much of its stuff ended up at Barry - but it's a very narrow representation (especially for such a long lived company) with essentially loads and loads of machines from the 1920s onwards and little (not nothing) from before that.
So, the core of the National Collection is very North Eastern heavy, with a small number of representatives that the NER/LNER bought off the other 3 post grouping companies or from their predecessors - one of each: Gladstone (Southern/LBSC), City of Truro (GWR), and Columbine (LMS/LNWR).
Essentially the early locomotives survive because:
- they survived long enough for the NER to save them
- they were dragged out of being stationary boilers because there was a centenary coming up (Stockton and Darlington 1825; Liverpool and Manchester (1830)
- they just got plinthed, e.g. Tiny (the last surviving genuine broad gauge locomotive) or Shannon at Wantage Road
And of course some locos (eg the GWR "North Star") were first preserved but later scrapped as they were taking up space in the works (yes, I'm looking at you, Mr Churchward) and - most sadly of all - "Ben Alder", which survived till 1967. (Conversely Bill Harvey, the shedmaster at Norwich, ducked and dived in order to keep B12 61572 from being scrapped).
Others which could have been preserved weren't: eg the last LNWR express locomotives which survived until 1945 and were photographed together on withdrawal. Then there were historic locos which would have been preserved if the fledgling preservation movement had had the funds to buy them: I believe that the Bluebell Railway lost a couple that way.
One thing not mentioned in the post above is the contribution made by Billy Butlin in "stuffing and mounting" locos at his holiday camps; also the brewery which did the same with the "Terrier" "Hayling Billy" (which I saw in 1972 and is now running on the Isle of Wight).
Harking back to a question from @Sandemaniac , it was the South Eastern Railway which built the Tonbridge to Hastings line - or rather, it was their contractor, who skimped on the lining of several tunnels, using only one layer of bricks.
When the tunnel linings began to give way, and the SER found out what had happened, they added more layers, thereby reducing the loading gauge within the tunnels. This was OK until locomotives and rolling stock began to get larger, and eventually specially-designed locomotives (the Schools class, notably) had to be provided - hence the straight-sided coaches, and the equally skinny-looking diesel multiple units used from 1957 onwards. I'm not aware of any specially-built vans, though, and the parcels vans seen at Oxford some 20 years ago were probably standard Southern vans.
When the line was electrified, they gauntletted the track through the narrow tunnels, avoiding the problem of the restricted width, and used standard electric stock.
The SER joined forces with the London Chatham & Dover in 1899, forming the South Eastern & Chatham Managing Committee. Both companies retained their separate identities until Grouping in 1923, but were worked as a more-or-less unified system.
One thing not mentioned in the post above is the contribution made by Billy Butlin in "stuffing and mounting" locos at his holiday camps; also the brewery which did the same with the "Terrier" "Hayling Billy" (which I saw in 1972 and is now running on the Isle of Wight).
True, but I was trying to answer the question about how the surviving Victorian stuff (ok, I know that would include the terrier...) survived.
Otherwise it would be worth giving a round of applause to Birmingham City Council who, alone among local authorities when the time came, didn't just buy the nameplates like everyone else but bought the whole City of Birmingham locomotive.
Speaking of valve gear etc, it's said that when the utility Q1 class appeared in WW2, the crews expressed some disquiet at the sight of the connecting-rods flailing up and down, unprotected by a running-plate above them, whilst the engine was moving at speed. Suppose (they said) the rod broke, and flew into the cab like a massive lance or spear?
The valve gear was inside the frames, so there were no outside cylinders or motion etc.
Mr Bulleid observed that connecting-rod fractures Hardly Ever Happened on the Southern Railway, and that a running plate would be no protection anyway. I'm not aware that he was ever proved wrong.
the latter point is something I was reminded of at the weekend when I saw in the Times a picture of the player's tunnel at Cambridge Utd and the nameplate of the titular B17 was over the tunnel.
I'm not aware of any specially-built vans, though, and the parcels vans seen at Oxford some 20 years ago were probably standard Southern vans.
The Fount of All Knowledge suggests that SECR, SR and BR GUV vans were narrower than normal carriages and straight-sided, albeit possibly a bit wider than the Hastings DEMUs.
Speaking of connecting rods, there were instances (I know of at least one with an NBR Atlantic) where the connecting rod did break and pierced the firebox, causing devastating injuries to the train crew. I doubt very much if a running plate would have afforded much protection; in any case the valve gear itself was usually left exposed.
Thank you, gentlemen. I daresay the parcels vans of SECR and SR origin were built with a view to being able to go anywhere, and they all - including the BR vans of the 1950s - certainly appeared on the Hastings line.
@Baptist Trainfan 's horrifying story of a broken connecting-rod perhaps lends a bit of weight to the fears of the Southern Railway crews anent the Q1, though, of course, all other steam locomotives on the Southern* had visible connecting-rods, and, in many cases, outside valve gear.
It seems that it was the lack of a running plate which spooked them, but Mr Bulleid ( a most courteous and polite man) soon put their fears at rest.
*with the exception, of course, of the (in)famous Leader class...which was really, I suppose, technically-speaking a BR design carried over from the Southern by the sheer force of Mr Bulleid's personality...
(In case anyone wonders, I am a bit of a fan of Oliver Bulleid. He was a brilliant man in many ways, if somewhat idiosyncratic, but he successfully** dieselised the railways of the Republic of Ireland long before most other European countries went down that path, and bequeathed the railways of Southern England the very finest Pacific express locomotives ever. So there ).
**It would have been much better if the Irish Government had followed his advice, and bought reliable proven diesel locomotives from the USA. No, they bought English locomotives, and spent the next umpteen years tinkering with them to make them go, before finally putting in new engines...
Now the "Leader" really was a potential deathtrap for the fireman. Not only did he roast in his little cabin at the side, but he'd have been dead meat if the engine had ever overturned. I understand that the Unions were - rightly - very iffy about the loco but allowed trials to go ahead with some fears. A production version would have had to be very different.
and bequeathed the railways of Southern England the very finest Pacific express locomotives ever.
It's a good job everyone involved is long dead before you committed that sentence to pixels.
IIRC/AIUI he was only able to get them built in wartime because they absolutely, definitely were mixed traffic engines, and absolutely, definitely were not express locomotives...
The latter were forbidden to be built as unnecessary with a war on.
and bequeathed the railways of Southern England the very finest Pacific express locomotives ever.
It's a good job everyone involved is long dead before you committed that sentence to pixels.
IIRC/AIUI he was only able to get them built in wartime because they absolutely, definitely were mixed traffic engines, and absolutely, definitely were not express locomotives...
The latter were forbidden to be built as unnecessary with a war on.
Well, the slightly smaller West Country and Battle of Britain engines did work mixed traffic - there is photographic evidence of them running tender-first on two-coach local trains...
Quite how OVSB managed to get the *mixed traffic* Merchant Navy class built, with all their idiosyncratic gubbins, in the middle of a World War is something of a mystery. He could, apparently, charm the birds from the trees, so...
Now the "Leader" really was a potential deathtrap for the fireman. Not only did he roast in his little cabin at the side, but he'd have been dead meat if the engine had ever overturned. I understand that the Unions were - rightly - very iffy about the loco but allowed trials to go ahead with some fears. A production version would have had to be very different.
Yes, the Leader was not a good place for the fireman, though his cab actually didn't get as hot as that on a Bulleid Pacific. There may be some significance in the fact that Mr Bulleid's Turfburner in Ireland - basically a much better Leader - had a single central cab. That one worked quite well, but came along far too late to be of any real use against the diesels.
He bequeathed the railways of Southern England the very finest Pacific express locomotives ever. So there ).
Are those the ones that leaked so much oil under the cladding that they caught fire, and slipped under the slightest provocation?
Mind you, once they got going they were magnificent.
Ahem. Something else we Don't Talk About (the fires, that is). The slipping was (and still is) common, as the engines were light on their wheels. As you say, they could go like the wind, and their boilers - Mr Bulleid was good at boilers - are some of the finest ever built.
and bequeathed the railways of Southern England the very finest Pacific express locomotives ever.
It's a good job everyone involved is long dead before you committed that sentence to pixels.
IIRC/AIUI he was only able to get them built in wartime because they absolutely, definitely were mixed traffic engines, and absolutely, definitely were not express locomotives...
The latter were forbidden to be built as unnecessary with a war on.
Well, the slightly smaller West Country and Battle of Britain engines did work mixed traffic - there is photographic evidence of them running tender-first on two-coach local trains...
Quite how OVSB managed to get the *mixed traffic* Merchant Navy class built, with all their idiosyncratic gubbins, in the middle of a World War is something of a mystery. He could, apparently, charm the birds from the trees, so...
Now the "Leader" really was a potential deathtrap for the fireman. Not only did he roast in his little cabin at the side, but he'd have been dead meat if the engine had ever overturned. I understand that the Unions were - rightly - very iffy about the loco but allowed trials to go ahead with some fears. A production version would have had to be very different.
Yes, the Leader was not a good place for the fireman, though his cab actually didn't get as hot as that on a Bulleid Pacific. There may be some significance in the fact that Mr Bulleid's Turfburner in Ireland - basically a much better Leader - had a single central cab. That one worked quite well, but came along far too late to be of any real use against the diesels.
He bequeathed the railways of Southern England the very finest Pacific express locomotives ever. So there ).
Are those the ones that leaked so much oil under the cladding that they caught fire, and slipped under the slightest provocation?
Mind you, once they got going they were magnificent.
Ahem. Something else we Don't Talk About (the fires, that is). The slipping was (and still is) common, as the engines were light on their wheels. As you say, they could go like the wind, and their boilers - Mr Bulleid was good at boilers - are some of the finest ever built.
In all fairness, the rebuilt versions (detested by Mr Bulleid) were a masterpiece by Ron Jarvis and others at British Railways. Stunning-looking engines, with all the best Bulleid features retained, but much simpler to maintain. Happily, some are still active, and I recall seeing the by-then preserved 35028 Clan Line on a late-night test run from Ashford, on the main line one Sunday night opposite Our House...I heard the unmistakable noise of the unusual wheels, thought I was dreaming, got up, looked out of window, and there she was!
I stand by my assertion that the Bulleid Pacific - even the rebuilt Bulleid/Jarvis version - was England's Finest. Huh - the Great Way Round only ever had one Pacific, and that wasn't much cop. Too many wheels, I expect - it had more wheels than GWR staff had fingers.
Well, the slightly smaller West Country and Battle of Britain engines did work mixed traffic - there is photographic evidence of them running tender-first on two-coach local trains...
Typical Southern sleight of hand - that two coach train coming into Padstow behind a BoB is (still) the Atlantic Coast Express...
Well, the slightly smaller West Country and Battle of Britain engines did work mixed traffic - there is photographic evidence of them running tender-first on two-coach local trains...
Typical Southern sleight of hand - that two coach train coming into Padstow behind a BoB is (still) the Atlantic Coast Express...
Curses! Rumbled...
Mind you, I think the photo I've seen, which IIRC was taken in the same part of the Withered Arm, was actually a local stopping service, rather than the ACE. Even the ACE probably wasn't hauled tender-first, although it did indeed dwindle to just a couple of nice comfy Bulleid coaches by the time it got that far west...
Mind you, the fabled non-stop "Cornish Riviera Limited" on Another Railway was also rather diminished by the time it got to Plymouth, having slipped portions at Westbury (for Weymouth), at Taunton (for Minehead) and at Exeter (for Torbay and Kingsbridge). Even with a "King" at the front, that would have helped on the South Devon banks.
Well, the slightly smaller West Country and Battle of Britain engines did work mixed traffic - there is photographic evidence of them running tender-first on two-coach local trains...
Typical Southern sleight of hand - that two coach train coming into Padstow behind a BoB is (still) the Atlantic Coast Express...
Curses! Rumbled...
Mind you, I think the photo I've seen, which IIRC was taken in the same part of the Withered Arm, was actually a local stopping service, rather than the ACE. Even the ACE probably wasn't hauled tender-first, although it did indeed dwindle to just a couple of nice comfy Bulleid coaches by the time it got that far west...
It's been a while since I looked into this but from memory (to quote the late lamented Jethro) what happened was...
Facilities for servicing at Padstow were non-existent, so the arrived Atlantic Coast Express loco would have to beetle off somewhere else, somewhere with a turntable.
In the meantime they did a couple of booked local turns in Padstow and environs to get use out of the loco (and avoiding miles of light engine running), before turning it, and it working one last service back to Padstow tender first, which it then ran round, and when it set off again that was the Up Atlantic Coast Express - having been a local service on the way in.
Well, they were double-ended (but I know what you mean, really!)
BTW having travelled in Bulleid coaches on the Bluebell Railway, I'd agree that they were comfy. Unlike the Hutachi Super Express stock with which we are inflicted blessed on today's GWR: ironing-board seats, skittering ride.
Mind you, the fabled non-stop "Cornish Riviera Limited" on Another Railway was also rather diminished by the time it got to Plymouth, having slipped portions at Westbury (for Weymouth), at Taunton (for Minehead) and at Exeter (for Torbay and Kingsbridge). Even with a "King" at the front, that would have helped on the South Devon banks.
Didn't the engines change at Exeter though? IIRC the London engine worked through to Torbay on those coaches and something new took the Plymouth section. Hence Kings cropping up at Kingswear a lot more commonly than you might have thought.
Compared to North America, Britain is abundantly spoiled in preserved steam locomotives. The difference is that preservation in North American depended entirely on the economic situation of a given railway. The poor financial state of the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central Railroad meant that very little of their steam locomotives were preserved, especially the later models like the Niagaras. Some roads like the Southern positively despised steam after they dieselized and so have little preservation. Others like the Baltimore & Ohio have entire museums devoted to them, started by the B&O itself.
The Union Pacific is a weird case. It cares very, very much about Union Pacific history and the UP's locomotives and has its own steam shop at Cheyenne WY with a fleet of three preserved units, including the Big Boy, but most of the mileage of the modern UP is from other roads through mergers. They don't are a whit about the Southern Pacific, Missouri Pacific, Rock Island or Chicago & North Western. Which is a pity as it means no SP Cab-Forwards on the UP.
Comments
There is but one NRM, though in two locations. One should neither confound the locations nor divide the substance. For there is one location named York, and another named Shildon. York is not Shildon, neither is Shildon York, yet they are not two Museums but one Museum.
Everlasting travel by rail replacement bus.
Sadness.
Indeed. Especially when it involves a full minibus at the height of summer all the way down the A9 from Wick to Inverness instead of trundling down the Far North line.
The only time I visited Swindon (early 1980s) the GWR museum was still in a converted chapel, which was, I think, Methodist. Just for once, the overused term "iconic" was almost appropriate, especially for the sublime City of Truro and Lode Star. (I know Methodists don't do icons, but you know what I mean).
Now, if only the Great Way Round had kept the broad gauge, and built bigger and better engines to suit it...
I'll get me overalls...
The Ds and the very similar Es, designed by Robert Surtees and Harry Wainwright (and rebuilt by Richard Maunsell) were some of the most elegant locomotives ever to grace the rails of England!
https://coimages.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/images/81/478/medium_NRM_CT_932807.jpg
Sir, I demand restitution! Choose your weapons!
There is, I believe, an official photograph of a D class locomotive, captioned *Designer - R R Surtees*...
I can recall seeing some of the former SECR classes - the Cs and Hs in particular - albeit in the latter day black livery. The Hs (044T passenger engines) were lined out, and looked quite smart when (or if) clean!
This man needs to be censored. This is a serious discussion.
Ah. I did wonder if you actually meant the River class.
We don't Talk about Them.
Yes, they originated on the SECR, but later (in Southern times) fell out of favour. They were relieved of their tanks, given nice tenders, and became Really Useful Engines. Some lasted right up to the end of steam in Kent - I can recall seeing some at Our Shed as late as 1965/66.
AIUI, some of the railway companies themselves set some of their older locomotives aside for preservation, but they were kept safe in sheds, perhaps coming out for an exhibition for a few days.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SECR_K_and_SR_K1_classes
Alas, they didn't take too kindly to the rather shaky Southern track - often unstable on their home metals, there were no problems when tested on better track elsewhere...
Mind you, he would have been a brave (or foolish) man who tried sending anything much larger than a Terrier down that section of the KESR.
Still, your herculean efforts were rewarded by the eventual re-opening to Bodiam, and I understand that the rebuilding of the line back to the junction at Robertsbridge is a work-in-progress.
So I gather - sadly, there's a housing estate at Tenterden St Michaels and a... buggered if I know what it is now, I know what it was in 1988!* across the line near Headcorn, so it'll never run all the way to Headcorn again.
One day, one day I will ride that line, but I'm sad to say I've never been back since 1988.
*apparently it's Sunmagic Juices - so a vegan version of the old Unigate dairy plant, I guess.
Proper Locomotives do not hide the mechanism inside a scandalous shroud, but display the action openly for the people to see:
https://images.app.goo.gl/VHVLZXQYZbRCz4De7
Spot on - the powerful mechanism is a proper part of any locomotive. Thanks for those Canadian pictures, not often seen here.
I looked at a lot of links following on from BF's SECR K and K1 class.
I didn't know that some of the SECR lines were of such poor construction, as built in a hurry, due to competiting with new lines by other companies! Seems they even used pepples for ballast, which of course doesn't really work; no wonder they had limited speeds and axle loads! The K and K1 locos appear to have had some constructive errors as well. The Sevenoaks railway accident story is hair-raising!
From SPK's Canadian pictures, I was especially impressed by the size of this beast!
Finally, as Gee D says, seeing 'the powerful mechanism' is clearly a thing to behold; I once happened to ride, on the next track and for several miles, along a preserved German 01 Class, when I was travelling on a regular passenger train! I even have a video to prove it!
However, speaking of European Continental trains and 'powerful mechanisms': before WW2, the Germans had several fully-enclosed huge steam engines, such as DRG Class 05 - one even with cab-forward design! - or partially enclosed ones, like Class 01.10 or Class 06. (Class 05 held the speed record for steam engines until beaten by Mallard.) To be frank, not sure how practical fully enclosed steam engines were, even with the innovative roller shutters shown on Class 05.
The most impressive steam engine design though I have ever encountered, and which I find intringuing to this day, is the German steam motor prototype Class 19.1001, as here on German-language Wiki (English Wiki has no images), or as a collection of pictures here on YouTube (suggestion: turn off the sound).
What do others think of such inventions and innovations?
There has also been the constant quest to improve either balancing of reciporocating parts and/or thermal efficiciency; here the improvements were often gained at the cost of great complexity. The 1930s Germans were certainly onto something with locos such as the Class 19; today, with the improvements in materials science and computer analysis, they might have got much further.
Yes, I agree that the majesty of the mechanism is something which endears steam locomotives to people (and running alongside the 01 must have been awesome, especially if unexpected). However the thought of these heavy girders (aka connecting and coupling rods) flying around several times per sscond does induce a certain concern in me!
BTW everyone says that "Mallard" was the fastest steam loco of all time. But this is based on one-quarter mile reading of a dynanometer car roll: careful analysis suggests that the speed was no greater than 124.5 mph. In any case I consider the run of the Class 05 to be far superior as high speed was sustained over some distance on level track.
This is not an easy question to answer, but there are some trends:
for the really early stuff, it was more accident than anything else - Rocket, Puffing Billy etc went to the Patent Office and then the Science Museum; just because they were interesting survivors. Lion was doing work as a stationary boiler in Liverpool Docks until IIRC the 20s when it was fished out and restored.
The LMS preserved Hardwicke at withdrawal because she was a record breaker.
Enter the North Eastern Railway...
because the Stockton and Darlington was on their patch, they had a good collection of really early stuff, which went to their successors the LNER. They had a programme of keeping things, which none of the other railways really did. The LMS probably second, but their collection was very small. The GWR did preserve some broad gauge locomotives, but the Churchward (IIRC) had them cut up because they were taking up space at Swindon works. The change from broad gauge means that the GWR did a wholesale renewal (pretty much) around the turn of the century and very little survives from before then because they didn't think it was worth keeping. The Southern had basically no programme.
Ironically the GWR has ended up as about the best represented railway in preservation *because* so much of its stuff ended up at Barry - but it's a very narrow representation (especially for such a long lived company) with essentially loads and loads of machines from the 1920s onwards and little (not nothing) from before that.
So, the core of the National Collection is very North Eastern heavy, with a small number of representatives that the NER/LNER bought off the other 3 post grouping companies or from their predecessors - one of each: Gladstone (Southern/LBSC), City of Truro (GWR), and Columbine (LMS/LNWR).
Essentially the early locomotives survive because:
- they survived long enough for the NER to save them
- they were dragged out of being stationary boilers because there was a centenary coming up (Stockton and Darlington 1825; Liverpool and Manchester (1830)
- they just got plinthed, e.g. Tiny (the last surviving genuine broad gauge locomotive) or Shannon at Wantage Road
luck more than anything
Others which could have been preserved weren't: eg the last LNWR express locomotives which survived until 1945 and were photographed together on withdrawal. Then there were historic locos which would have been preserved if the fledgling preservation movement had had the funds to buy them: I believe that the Bluebell Railway lost a couple that way.
One thing not mentioned in the post above is the contribution made by Billy Butlin in "stuffing and mounting" locos at his holiday camps; also the brewery which did the same with the "Terrier" "Hayling Billy" (which I saw in 1972 and is now running on the Isle of Wight).
When the tunnel linings began to give way, and the SER found out what had happened, they added more layers, thereby reducing the loading gauge within the tunnels. This was OK until locomotives and rolling stock began to get larger, and eventually specially-designed locomotives (the Schools class, notably) had to be provided - hence the straight-sided coaches, and the equally skinny-looking diesel multiple units used from 1957 onwards. I'm not aware of any specially-built vans, though, and the parcels vans seen at Oxford some 20 years ago were probably standard Southern vans.
When the line was electrified, they gauntletted the track through the narrow tunnels, avoiding the problem of the restricted width, and used standard electric stock.
The SER joined forces with the London Chatham & Dover in 1899, forming the South Eastern & Chatham Managing Committee. Both companies retained their separate identities until Grouping in 1923, but were worked as a more-or-less unified system.
Here endeth the Lesson.
True, but I was trying to answer the question about how the surviving Victorian stuff (ok, I know that would include the terrier...) survived.
Otherwise it would be worth giving a round of applause to Birmingham City Council who, alone among local authorities when the time came, didn't just buy the nameplates like everyone else but bought the whole City of Birmingham locomotive.
Speaking of all the gubbins on show...
https://flic.kr/p/dBbqag
The valve gear was inside the frames, so there were no outside cylinders or motion etc.
Mr Bulleid observed that connecting-rod fractures Hardly Ever Happened on the Southern Railway, and that a running plate would be no protection anyway. I'm not aware that he was ever proved wrong.
Speaking of connecting rods, there were instances (I know of at least one with an NBR Atlantic) where the connecting rod did break and pierced the firebox, causing devastating injuries to the train crew. I doubt very much if a running plate would have afforded much protection; in any case the valve gear itself was usually left exposed.
as a one time local they actually lasted until more like 10 years ago never mind 20. They were both BR - a GUV and a CCT.
@Baptist Trainfan 's horrifying story of a broken connecting-rod perhaps lends a bit of weight to the fears of the Southern Railway crews anent the Q1, though, of course, all other steam locomotives on the Southern* had visible connecting-rods, and, in many cases, outside valve gear.
It seems that it was the lack of a running plate which spooked them, but Mr Bulleid ( a most courteous and polite man) soon put their fears at rest.
*with the exception, of course, of the (in)famous Leader class...which was really, I suppose, technically-speaking a BR design carried over from the Southern by the sheer force of Mr Bulleid's personality...
(In case anyone wonders, I am a bit of a fan of Oliver Bulleid. He was a brilliant man in many ways, if somewhat idiosyncratic, but he successfully** dieselised the railways of the Republic of Ireland long before most other European countries went down that path, and bequeathed the railways of Southern England the very finest Pacific express locomotives ever. So there
**It would have been much better if the Irish Government had followed his advice, and bought reliable proven diesel locomotives from the USA. No, they bought English locomotives, and spent the next umpteen years tinkering with them to make them go, before finally putting in new engines...
Mind you, once they got going they were magnificent.
It's a good job everyone involved is long dead before you committed that sentence to pixels.
IIRC/AIUI he was only able to get them built in wartime because they absolutely, definitely were mixed traffic engines, and absolutely, definitely were not express locomotives...
The latter were forbidden to be built as unnecessary with a war on.
Well, the slightly smaller West Country and Battle of Britain engines did work mixed traffic - there is photographic evidence of them running tender-first on two-coach local trains...
Quite how OVSB managed to get the *mixed traffic* Merchant Navy class built, with all their idiosyncratic gubbins, in the middle of a World War is something of a mystery. He could, apparently, charm the birds from the trees, so...
Yes, the Leader was not a good place for the fireman, though his cab actually didn't get as hot as that on a Bulleid Pacific. There may be some significance in the fact that Mr Bulleid's Turfburner in Ireland - basically a much better Leader - had a single central cab. That one worked quite well, but came along far too late to be of any real use against the diesels.
Ahem. Something else we Don't Talk About (the fires, that is). The slipping was (and still is) common, as the engines were light on their wheels. As you say, they could go like the wind, and their boilers - Mr Bulleid was good at boilers - are some of the finest ever built.
Well, the slightly smaller West Country and Battle of Britain engines did work mixed traffic - there is photographic evidence of them running tender-first on two-coach local trains...
Quite how OVSB managed to get the *mixed traffic* Merchant Navy class built, with all their idiosyncratic gubbins, in the middle of a World War is something of a mystery. He could, apparently, charm the birds from the trees, so...
Yes, the Leader was not a good place for the fireman, though his cab actually didn't get as hot as that on a Bulleid Pacific. There may be some significance in the fact that Mr Bulleid's Turfburner in Ireland - basically a much better Leader - had a single central cab. That one worked quite well, but came along far too late to be of any real use against the diesels.
Ahem. Something else we Don't Talk About (the fires, that is). The slipping was (and still is) common, as the engines were light on their wheels. As you say, they could go like the wind, and their boilers - Mr Bulleid was good at boilers - are some of the finest ever built.
In all fairness, the rebuilt versions (detested by Mr Bulleid) were a masterpiece by Ron Jarvis and others at British Railways. Stunning-looking engines, with all the best Bulleid features retained, but much simpler to maintain. Happily, some are still active, and I recall seeing the by-then preserved 35028 Clan Line on a late-night test run from Ashford, on the main line one Sunday night opposite Our House...I heard the unmistakable noise of the unusual wheels, thought I was dreaming, got up, looked out of window, and there she was!
I stand by my assertion that the Bulleid Pacific - even the rebuilt Bulleid/Jarvis version - was England's Finest. Huh - the Great Way Round only ever had one Pacific, and that wasn't much cop. Too many wheels, I expect - it had more wheels than GWR staff had fingers.
I'll get me grease-top...
Typical Southern sleight of hand - that two coach train coming into Padstow behind a BoB is (still) the Atlantic Coast Express...
Curses! Rumbled...
Mind you, I think the photo I've seen, which IIRC was taken in the same part of the Withered Arm, was actually a local stopping service, rather than the ACE. Even the ACE probably wasn't hauled tender-first, although it did indeed dwindle to just a couple of nice comfy Bulleid coaches by the time it got that far west...
It's been a while since I looked into this but from memory (to quote the late lamented Jethro) what happened was...
Facilities for servicing at Padstow were non-existent, so the arrived Atlantic Coast Express loco would have to beetle off somewhere else, somewhere with a turntable.
In the meantime they did a couple of booked local turns in Padstow and environs to get use out of the loco (and avoiding miles of light engine running), before turning it, and it working one last service back to Padstow tender first, which it then ran round, and when it set off again that was the Up Atlantic Coast Express - having been a local service on the way in.
BTW having travelled in Bulleid coaches on the Bluebell Railway, I'd agree that they were comfy. Unlike the Hutachi Super Express stock with which we are inflicted blessed on today's GWR: ironing-board seats, skittering ride.
Didn't the engines change at Exeter though? IIRC the London engine worked through to Torbay on those coaches and something new took the Plymouth section. Hence Kings cropping up at Kingswear a lot more commonly than you might have thought.
The Union Pacific is a weird case. It cares very, very much about Union Pacific history and the UP's locomotives and has its own steam shop at Cheyenne WY with a fleet of three preserved units, including the Big Boy, but most of the mileage of the modern UP is from other roads through mergers. They don't are a whit about the Southern Pacific, Missouri Pacific, Rock Island or Chicago & North Western. Which is a pity as it means no SP Cab-Forwards on the UP.