This may not have been applicable to their location, but in the UK at least divorce was further liberalised in the 1920s.
Not quite @Pomona. There was, by modern standards, a minor change in 1937. However, divorce law in England and Wales wasn't liberalised until the Divorce Reform Act 1969 which came into force on 1st January 1971. It was strictly still the case until then that if one party had committed adultery, the victim could get a divorce but if both had, neither could.
Until then, outside raffish circles divorce was still regarded as scandalous, viz Mrs Simpson and the Duke of Windsor.
You had to have money at least until 1971 ... in which case it locked countless numbers of working class people in misery. Discrimination that is never addressed.
This may not have been applicable to their location, but in the UK at least divorce was further liberalised in the 1920s.
Not quite @Pomona. There was, by modern standards, a minor change in 1937. However, divorce law in England and Wales wasn't liberalised until the Divorce Reform Act 1969 which came into force on 1st January 1971. It was strictly still the case until then that if one party had committed adultery, the victim could get a divorce but if both had, neither could.
Until then, outside raffish circles divorce was still regarded as scandalous, viz Mrs Simpson and the Duke of Windsor.
You had to have money at least until 1971 ... in which case it locked countless numbers of working class people in misery. Discrimination that is never addressed.
Um, it's a frequent topic of researchers looking into UK abortion law? It's also a mainstay of A Level Sociology which thousands of teenagers will have written exams on this summer. People do discuss it.
Some of you touched on the idea of God having a plan for our lives. But the people who say that sort of thing all seem to have done reasonably well out of life. I have a Christian friend who converted later on in life, and as she puts it, when she started to observe God's standards for courtship and marriage (I.e not sleeping with a boyfriend before marriage), hey presto, a wealthy man with a property empire walks into her life. I once went to visit her in her very large house in the London commuter belt, and she said to me "We are owed nothing". If someone living on the streets wants to tell me that, I will listen, but if someone well to do tells me that, it just seems like they are taking the mickey. I live in a rented room in a run down house and the first rung of the property ladder is very much out of my reach. Nobody ever says God's plan for your life is working in Tesco's.
I have been single so long it doesn't bother me much anymore. I used to get upset at other people's weddings, and their children's christenings, but now I feel genuine happiness for anyone who finds someone to marry, and welcome children with. However the one thing which grates on me is the lack of meaningful "move on" in my life. I have been living in London for almost 20 years, and apart from some nice holidays, my life has not changed very much. Same job (I tried to get a better one), no luck on dating sites, and friends have come and gone.
So to get a sense of my life moving on, I feel I have no choice but to go to a sex worker. I know I could pick somebody up on Tinder, or go dogging, but I don't want to take the risk of someone removing the condom without my consent, or trying to force me into having a sort of sex which I don't want to have. If I go to a sex worker, I can tell him what I want, and that I'm a virgin, and I'm sure he will make it a worthwhile experience for me. I have looked on a few sex worker websites and all I have to do now is save up. Some of you will not agree with what I want to do, but everyone else's lives move on, and mine gets to move on too.
I'm no expert, but I wonder if you might benefit from a fresh start outside of London. It sounds like you're not enormously happy there, and have no particular ties other than work. There are other cities, like Liverpool or Bradford, where a modest wage goes a lot further (it doesn't sound like you're too attached to your current job) and a house with a small garden (if that's something you want) might be in reach. Perhaps consider that you're halfway through your working life, and what do you like about what you've got and what is in your power to change. Heck, depending on how adventurous you're feeling there's nothing to stop you packing up and taking a live-in hospitality job somewhere far away while you have a think. Out here in the Hebrides we often get people showing up at turning points in their lives. Some stay, others move on, but many find the change helpful.
First of all @Alto16 , thank you for being brave enough to be honest and vulnerable here. It isn't easy to talk about these things, especially in a Christian context.
please don't give therapeutic advice -L, Epiphanies Host
Above all else, I would like to ask if you see a therapist at all? If not, I think some kind of talking therapy could be extremely beneficial here. Thanks to technology, therapy via zoom etc is very accessible nowadays if that would be easier. If your workplace has employee counselling available that would be something at least if private therapy is unavailable, or your local Mind branch may be able to advise you of affordable local options. I do feel that you would be helped a great deal by having some psychosexual therapy - this is a talking therapy, not any kind of sex coaching using bodywork or physical touch (aside from homework set for you to do in private at home). It's not just for people in relationships, many single people have this type of therapy. They really have heard it all before, and won't be judgemental. You may find it helpful to find a therapist specialising in issues involving sex and religion. I feel like there is much that a professional could potentially help you untangle.
I think the suggestion to get out of London is potentially a very good one - you could always live outside of London and commute if finding a new job would be difficult, but it seems to be somewhat of a buyer's market in terms of employment right now (especially in certain sectors like hospitality - I do like the suggestion of a live-in hospitality job). You could also possibly think of retraining or going back to studies, perhaps while subletting your room if you go away to study? There's also the possibility of volunteering at a Christian community of some kind - things like being an Alongsider in a convent or monastery, or volunteering with the Iona Community or something? Teaching English abroad is fairly easy to get into if you have at least a bachelors degree.
I don't, by the way, suggest these things as a way to dissuade you from your plans. I'm not opposed to sex work and I don't think your plans are wrong, per se. However, I do sense that you are at a real crossroads in your life, and perhaps doing something very drastic isn't exactly the same as 'moving on'. It does come across as you being quite 'inside your own head' (I say this as someone who is prone to this myself!), and I think it would likely be beneficial if you had an actual real-life outlet for this stuff before making any concrete plans. I feel like you might need a change of external circumstances in order to be able to release some of your internal 'head stuff'.
please don't give therapeutic advice -L
I also feel that you may benefit from working on intimacy as an issue, ideally with a psychosexual therapist.
It seems quite striking that you go from talking about weddings and christenings to talking about Tinder and dogging. I don't mean that judgementally, but that the latter two are likely to be potentially dangerous in ways other than involving consent or sexual danger...you don't seem to consider your own safety in a general sense here. Which is not to criticise you, it just sounds like you struggle to think of yourself as whole person because of this one 'failing' in your life. In reality, virginity as a concept is just made up. It's not a real tangible thing, but a cultural hangover from when sex was just something done to a person, usually done by a man to a woman. When you make your sexual debut can be defined in any way you like, and you don't need to have penis in vagina sex to be 'a real grownup'. Getting mentally stuck on this one thing may cause more problems if it's then disappointing or you get attacked or it's just something you have to do like a chore.
Hi everyone, just a friendly reminder - please don’t give therapeutic advice and please do remember you're posting on a public forum so do think carefully about the level of intimate detail you're sharing.
Thanks
Louise
Epiphanies Host
Very many years ago when I was stuck in the place I was living, I decided to move to a city for more prospects of employment. On the slender grounds that a friend of a friend would put me up, I took the train north. On it I fell into conversation with a young woman. She had what I lacked - a job, a boyfriend (she was on her way to meet), a highly likely future marriage, apparent security. But I had something she envied - freedom.
I arrived north; good things and bad things happened to me. But in the end, more good than bad.
Moving is a lot easier if you have money saved. I’d also venture to say that whilst in London it’s not uncommon to be living in a rented houseshare in your 30’s or 40’s, up North it is rare and harder to come by so if you don’t have enough for a deposit & mortgage, even though it’s much cheaper to buy than down South, then you don’t necessarily end up in a better position. If you can’t buy and aren’t eligible for council or student housing you could struggle to find somewhere decent to rent. Also, you’ll potentially be surrounded by young families more than in London.
It's much cheaper to rent as a single person outside of London (which doesn't even necessarily mean the North), and it's also not *that* uncommon for someone in their 30s or 40s to share a house outside London, especially in a city. Birmingham or Leeds or Glasgow for eg will have plenty of people in this situation. There are options other than buying or renting a room in a house.
Thank you for your honesty. I hope that you get a chance to improve things for yourself somehow.
I grew up in South Wales in the 70s/80s, when living together outside of marriage was incredibly daring. Many of my friends were therefore married at 16 or 18, often in suspiciously roomy wedding dresses. They were usually divorced by 20 and bringing up kids on their own.
So to be honest, I’m rather glad that no-one got within snogging distance of me until I was 25. And yes, we waited for marriage (at 28, the last of my social circle by some years) and I’m glad we did. The test-drive analogy could have backfired (ha!) in my case.
However, the writings of Messrs LaHaye and Wheat led me into some seriously messed up thinking and caused issues that needed counselling to even attempt overcoming. Their book ‘The Act of Marriage’ is fit only for the bonfire.
Christian men can also get into this type of situation. My observation is a severe shortage of single women in churches in the 20 -35 age range. Our current membership (amongst the UK nationals anyway – Far Eastern visitors are closer to a 50/50 balance) in this demographic includes three single women, at least one of whom brings a boyfriend along. And no less than seven single men, none of whom have a girlfriend. OK, the male headship theology – which I personally don’t support – doesn’t exactly entice and retain women, but I don’t think this is just an odd conclusion from a small statistical sample. It’s a pattern we’ve seen for the last 15-20 years, and which I see repeated at evangelical churches visited on caravan holidays around the country. Each of my sons, both in their 20s, have had a non-Christian girlfriend but neither has been on one date with a Christian girl in spite of looking for a suitable one and spending 4 and 5 years at University.
Did anyone read Dr Kate Gaddini’s article in Premier Christianity a few weeks ago, commenting on her research showing a declining number of single women in churches?
I've heard it said numerous times that the single male to female ratio is appreciably kinder to women in small towns and rural areas than in big cities, London especially.
It’s surprising that the original poster hasn’t achieved the desired outcome from all the dating websites, but it’s a fact of life that many people will stay single, either for their whole lives of in the stages when the opposite sex is scarce and can be choosy. It’s inevitable when about 52-53 of every100 babies are male, coupled with earlier male mortality.
As others have said, far better to be single than unhappily hitched. And there’s no ‘one size fits all’ way to approach to involuntary singleness sensibly.
FWIW, for safety reasons if nothing else, I’d choose Anne Summers over a sex worker. Amongst other things, I find the idea of risking intimacy with a stranger way too anxiety provoking. And I suppose I wonder what the point would be, if your aspiration was sex in a loving relationship - that is not what handing over cash will get you.
There is another mainstream denomination in the UK that teaches the equivalent of 'True Love Waits' and has the advantage of controlling their children's formal education from 5 to 18 - the Roman Catholic Church.
I grew up in South Wales in the 70s/80s, when living together outside of marriage was incredibly daring. Many of my friends were therefore married at 16 or 18, often in suspiciously roomy wedding dresses. They were usually divorced by 20 and bringing up kids on their own.
I was in school at the same time in (roughly) the same place, but by 1985 there had been a number of (known) teenage pregnancies in our year group (300+, mixed) and fewer weddings. People got engaged when they found out but marriage was delayed until later, even when parents deeply disapproved. My guess is that our pregnancy rate was no better than that in non-Catholic schools nearby, despite a repeated 'no sex before marriage' message. (Mind you, having this told you by visiting priests and bishops did nothing for the message itself)
So even where not waiting = time in hell/purgatory, it had little effect on the RC youth of the 80s.
FWIW, for safety reasons if nothing else, I’d choose Anne Summers over a sex worker. Amongst other things, I find the idea of risking intimacy with a stranger way too anxiety provoking. And I suppose I wonder what the point would be, if your aspiration was sex in a loving relationship - that is not what handing over cash will get you.
Well, masturbation is not the same as sex with another person - and I'm slightly confused by reason given being safety reasons, when sex workers are generally in danger from clients and not the other way around. I haven't come across any cases of male sex workers assaulting women clients.
I think casual sex and seeking professional sexual services are quite different things - aside from anything else, it's a sex worker's job to make a client feel comfortable and reassured.
@Lockupchap sorry, I'm a bit puzzled when you mention single women attending your church and bringing boyfriends - surely by definition, women with boyfriends are not actually single? Also if you disagree with the male headship theology, why not leave? Certainly in my experience, there have always been far more single women in Evangelical churches, to the extent that many women settle for substandard men when they could do much better in terms of non-Evangelical men.
@Lockupchap sorry, I'm a bit puzzled when you mention single women attending your church and bringing boyfriends - surely by definition, women with boyfriends are not actually single? Also if you disagree with the male headship theology, why not leave? Certainly in my experience, there have always been far more single women in Evangelical churches, to the extent that many women settle for substandard men when they could do much better in terms of non-Evangelical men.
It depends how you define single - legally or functionally.
Although my wife and I don't agree with the church leadership's male headship views, we take the view that it's of secondary importance. and stay put. We're both involved in areas of activity, make our views known, and find much agreement from other members. We see the ideology as unsustainable if it's driving women away as much as we (but not you) believe it is.
I've always thought men outnumber women amongst the genuinely single in evangelical circles, at least amongst the under-30s. It did in most of the 6 churches I attended in 4 cities in the 1980s as a young chap, and I believe the imbalance is growing. That said, the (im)balance seems to swing the other way in the following few years of life.
@Pomona I take your point regarding violence, I was thinking more of the health risks associated with sex with someone with a high number of partners.
Though that said, I know a number of people who have been threatened and financially exploited - usually by people controlling the sex worker rather than the individual themselves. (That has been in the context of men using female sex workers,)
@Doublethink that's a fair point - tho usually male sex workers tend to be sole traders anyway (as are most sex workers with an online advertising presence). I'm not sure how easy it would be for a cishet woman to access PrEP in the UK, but most sex workers will provide proof of a recent STI test if necessary and it's in their professional interest to not be infectious. There are sex therapists providing an explicitly therapeutic service which may or may not include bodywork/sexual services, which is different to a non-therapeutic sex worker service. However although I know male ones aimed at women exist, I am not very familiar with them.
@Lockupchap legally, cohabiting couples are not considered single in the UK - 'married or living together as though you are married' is standard wording on every DWP form, to the extent that cohabiting couples who do not consider themselves to be living as though married have a hell of a time proving this. But also, suggesting that people in a relationship are 'really' single seems to me to be part of this whole problem - that 'real' grownups are married, and that people are single right up until the point of exchanging vows. It doesn't actually reflect how people live, and is dismissive of the very real relationships between couples who aren't married. Non-married couples don't have lesser or less adult relationships.
I did my moving on through evening classes (back in the day before they got ofsteded and you were expected to treat it like school and do work in groups and stuff and have expected learning outcomes), sitting listening to someone showing interesting slides and having interesting chats in the coffee break and the Q&A. And that led to my doing an OU degree.. which was a good development.
However, all the interesting men I met were on the lecturing side and doing it to support their growing families.
Correction, almost all. Others had baggage.
Non-married couples don't have lesser or less adult relationships.
Well, that depends.
There are plenty of couples who choose, for whatever reason, not to marry, but are in relationships that are just as adult and permanent as an average marriage.
But there are also lots of couples whose relationship hasn't reached that state. Someone might reasonably bring a boyfriend or girlfriend to church with them when they've only been dating a short while. I think I'd been seeing Mrs C for about 6 weeks before she took me to her church. At that point, our relationship was very much lesser, and less adult, than that of most married couples. We didn't know if it was going to turn in to something permanent or not.
Were we single? Well, we expected each other not to date other people, but wouldn't have expected to be invited as a guest to a wedding that the other was invited to. As far as young women attending @Lockupchap's church goes, there's a difference between "currently off the market" and "permanently off the market".
When my now-husband and I attended each other's churches as boyfriend and girlfriend, we were definitely not cohabiting, or even having sex. We were single-but-dating. We wouldn't have dated anybody else, but we were both single up to the point we became engaged.
I read Lockupchap's post as meaning that sort of situation. For as long as we were "boyfriend" and "girlfriend" rather than "fiance" and "fiancee" we were single.
Some of you touched on the idea of God having a plan for our lives. But the people who say that sort of thing all seem to have done reasonably well out of life...I live in a rented room in a run down house and the first rung of the property ladder is very much out of my reach. Nobody ever says God's plan for your life is working in Tesco's.
Thanks for your posts. I don't have much to add, but this jumped out at me. I am one of the few remaining UK Methodists - not a denomination in which I would imagine you would find true love, if I am honest, given our ages - and one of our formal prayers contains the following
I am no longer my own but yours.
Put me to what you will,
rank me with whom you will;
put me to doing,
put me to suffering;
let me be employed for you,
or laid aside for you,
exalted for you,
or brought low for you;
let me be full,
let me be empty,
let me have all things,
let me have nothing:
There's another one which has something in it about how our jobs might align well with our interests and abilities - or might fail to do so with either. I wish I could find that one, but at the moment I can't.
So - I think sometimes Christians can be realistic that 'God's plan' might not at all be a big house and a husband and children. From the gospels, this seems obvious - 'foxes have holes, birds have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head' - there's loads and loads of texts like that. But churches sometimes steer clear of that stuff. I find them suspect when they do, because life is more like that, than the other.
Lastly I would say that about half of marriages end in divorce, and of the half which remain, I reckon (straw poll of those I know well) most are unhappy. If I'm right, more than 3/4 of relationships, don't really work. I know it's easier to say that from within such a relationship, than from outside longing for something which might not exist.
Good luck. I find (well, found) sex to be something which joins people together, a kind of bonding thing; I wouldn't fancy it with a sex worker for that reason. I regret the pain I caused others in failed sexual relationships when I was much younger, when those bonds got well and truly mangled. I might just be a softie, and my views might be bullshit.
If this be so, it's probably a feature of a particular con evo demographic. In churches more widely women massively outnumber men.
From any church attendance figures I've ever seen it's a feature of specific churches, but in general the latter still holds.
As a generalisation, that's supported by the data. Both nationally and globally. But a breakdown into demographics and types of churches could show interesting results. Our overall ratio is almost exactly 50/50 male/female, with a large number of widows over 70 being counterbalanced by more men in the 20-35 age range, a trend I've seen for many years in so-called con evo churches.
If this be so, it's probably a feature of a particular con evo demographic. In churches more widely women massively outnumber men.
From any church attendance figures I've ever seen it's a feature of specific churches, but in general the latter still holds.
As a generalisation, that's supported by the data. Both nationally and globally. But a breakdown into demographics and types of churches could show interesting results.
Yes, I was referring to times when I have seen it broken down by age cohorts, rather than just raw numbers of each genders.
When my now-husband and I attended each other's churches as boyfriend and girlfriend, we were definitely not cohabiting, or even having sex. We were single-but-dating. We wouldn't have dated anybody else, but we were both single up to the point we became engaged.
I read Lockupchap's post as meaning that sort of situation. For as long as we were "boyfriend" and "girlfriend" rather than "fiance" and "fiancee" we were single.
To my kids, 'single' = not in a relationship. It does not mean 'not married', 'not engaged' or 'not living together'. Their use is much narrower than the traditional/legal definition of 'not married', effectively meaning 'on my own at the moment'.
When my now-husband and I attended each other's churches as boyfriend and girlfriend, we were definitely not cohabiting, or even having sex. We were single-but-dating. We wouldn't have dated anybody else, but we were both single up to the point we became engaged.
I read Lockupchap's post as meaning that sort of situation. For as long as we were "boyfriend" and "girlfriend" rather than "fiance" and "fiancee" we were single.
To my kids, 'single' = not in a relationship. It does not mean 'not married', 'not engaged' or 'not living together'. Their use is much narrower than the traditional/legal definition of 'not married', effectively meaning 'on my own at the moment'.
It's the same with my kids. In fact, there seems to be several degrees of relationship including "seeing someone" (not being boyfriend/girlfriend/partners though), being "an item" (which I think would be being boyfriend/girlfriend/partners) and being "committed" (in for the long term). That all comes before any conversation about marriage or civil partnerships.
Lastly I would say that about half of marriages end in divorce, and of the half which remain, I reckon (straw poll of those I know well) most are unhappy. If I'm right, more than 3/4 of relationships, don't really work.
Interesting. I guess, particularly in a church context but probably others as well, people in my circle wouldn't admit to unhappiness although most married people I know would say marriage is "hard work" and that could mean a whole lot of things.
@Alto16 , thank you for your honesty. I hope you find a good way forward.
I suppose a secular view is that some relationships come to a natural end. OK, one can debate what natural means. But I found, working as a therapist, that it helps people, who are often preoccupied with their "failure", whatever that means. But the idea of a marriage working, surely must refer to happiness. If it works because you remember to put the bins out, that's not enough.
Seems like the coin "In A Relationship" came from Facebook and other social media outlets. In a relationship just means no need to hit on me at this time. My wife was in a relationship when I first asked her out, but later she told me she was ready to move on before I even knew her.
I suppose a secular view is that some relationships come to a natural end. OK, one can debate what natural means. But I found, working as a therapist, that it helps people, who are often preoccupied with their "failure", whatever that means. But the idea of a marriage working, surely must refer to happiness. If it works because you remember to put the bins out, that's not enough.
I would say that happiness is less important than contentedness. Happiness seems a fleeting thing, like beauty. Someone you can snuggle on the sofa with and sigh contentedly seems a better bet for longevity of the marriage, at least as age sets in and the need for adrenaline hits ramps down.
Actually, though not from within a marriage, but within something, I think remembering to put the bins out, take the laundry upstairs, replace the loo roll, put the milk bottles out and bring them in, the teamwork stuff, is making something work well.
Shutting the windows I want kept open, not so much.
And from a long time ago, in the days between the wars, when there were surplus women, there was an interesting set up in my family which the expressions about relationships reminded me of. There was "walking out", which was definitely something which had an air of committment about it, an expectation of leading on to something more permanent. One of my mother's cousins, or mother's generation, not entirely clear which, carried on walking out every Sunday with a man who had not married her but chosen someone else as his wife. This went on for life, and attracted some curious attitudes from outsiders, but was accepted. Apparently by the wife, as well.
The worst ones are the ones who had a wild time of wine, women and more women themselves, then repented, and are urging young people not to make the same mistakes they did.
The worst ones are the ones who had a wild time of wine, women and more women themselves, then repented, and are urging young people not to make the same mistakes they did.
St Augustine for example?
My son was given a copy of every young man's battle; Strategies for Victory in the Real World of Sexual Temptation by the church youth group when he was 16. Some of the testimonies in it are of the "I had a wild time, here's why you shouldn't variety."
Advice to anyone who thinks this book might be a good idea for a present for a teenage boy- Don't!
My daughter was given a similar book, but I can't remember what hers was called - she donated hers straight to the charity shop.
Its never too late.
One of the loveliest weddings I have played the organ for was of a couple of friends. She had never married and was in her 60s, he was a widower in his 70s. Both parishioners of ours. They had a superb few years together.
The attitude of some churches towards sex is to my mind basically dirty-minded and unChristian. As though God had made a dreadful mistake in creating it (yeah, I know, evolution and all that.)
My daughter was given a similar book, but I can't remember what hers was called - she donated hers straight to the charity shop.
Probably Anything Bad Happens to You, It's Your Fault.
I'm afraid my evangelical book like that would be titled, "Masturbation is the sin against the Holy Ghost" (2nd edition with a special chapter chapter on the evils of erotica).
How did any of us survive? Ah, there's the grace of God for you ....
It doesn't actually get as far as telling the young boy about 'The Facts of Life'. One can only assume that has to wait for 'What a young husband ought to know' which is in the same series. After waffling for 80 pages about plants and animals, it then devotes the remaining 100 pages to terrifying warnings of what will happen to anyone who so much as touches their "Sexual Member".
The photographs of the various worthies commending the work are pretty daunting.
It also appears to have been published as a series of cylinders that the young boy could be made to listen to on the phonograph which might have made it the first audiobook in the world.
In the book my son was given, masturbation is the subject of section 4, which runs from
p95 to p139.
Things that young men have to guard against include (p108) ...the cumulative effects of renting "Titanic" on Friday night, watching nubile sweat-soaked girls in tight nylon shorts at the track meet on Saturday afternoon, and lightly rubbing your genitals against a girl during the slow dance at the Saturday night social...
It starts with watching "Titanic" (certificate 12A) and it's all a rapid descent into sin from there.
In the book my son was given, masturbation is the subject of section 4, which runs from
p95 to p139.
Things that young men have to guard against include (p108) ...the cumulative effects of renting "Titanic" on Friday night, watching nubile sweat-soaked girls in tight nylon shorts at the track meet on Saturday afternoon, and lightly rubbing your genitals against a girl during the slow dance at the Saturday night social...
It starts with watching "Titanic" (certificate 12A) and it's all a rapid descent into sin from there.
Wellll....Titanic was a sexual awakening for many a Millennial, regardless of the 12A certificate. See the (excellent) film Yes God Yes - both the initial short film and the feature-length one - for details. In fairness though it doesn't seem to have been a sexual awakening for cis men at all...
Sylvanus Stall's motivation for writing his own version of (to repeat) egregious hypocritical drivel was, in his own words, "[my] suggestions [which] are prompted by my love for you and my abounding interest in boys and young men".
"I am one of the few remaining UK Methodists - not a denomination in which I would imagine you would find true love, if I am honest, given our ages "
I am a Methodist too, and there is no way I am finding love at my church. I attend because I prefer traditional worship, and I appreciate that the ministers admit when they don't have any easy answers to some of life's agonising situations. Believe it or not, I transferred to that church from Nicky Gumbel's Holy Trinity Brompton - after 6 years there I got fed up with the promises of a wonderful life which seemed to happen to everyone else, but not me. All my contemporaries were middle class, whereas I am not.
Thank you to everyone who replied to this thread. Whether or not to see a sex worker is not an easy decision to make, I don't know how I would feel after the encounter - relieved, guilty etc. And then there is the dilemma of whether to tell a future boyfriend, and if I did, would he understand, or would he get angry and finish with me etc.
It has been great to find somewhere to share what I have been through, and I hope my life moves on in some way soon.
Comments
You had to have money at least until 1971 ... in which case it locked countless numbers of working class people in misery. Discrimination that is never addressed.
Um, it's a frequent topic of researchers looking into UK abortion law? It's also a mainstay of A Level Sociology which thousands of teenagers will have written exams on this summer. People do discuss it.
Some of you touched on the idea of God having a plan for our lives. But the people who say that sort of thing all seem to have done reasonably well out of life. I have a Christian friend who converted later on in life, and as she puts it, when she started to observe God's standards for courtship and marriage (I.e not sleeping with a boyfriend before marriage), hey presto, a wealthy man with a property empire walks into her life. I once went to visit her in her very large house in the London commuter belt, and she said to me "We are owed nothing". If someone living on the streets wants to tell me that, I will listen, but if someone well to do tells me that, it just seems like they are taking the mickey. I live in a rented room in a run down house and the first rung of the property ladder is very much out of my reach. Nobody ever says God's plan for your life is working in Tesco's.
I have been single so long it doesn't bother me much anymore. I used to get upset at other people's weddings, and their children's christenings, but now I feel genuine happiness for anyone who finds someone to marry, and welcome children with. However the one thing which grates on me is the lack of meaningful "move on" in my life. I have been living in London for almost 20 years, and apart from some nice holidays, my life has not changed very much. Same job (I tried to get a better one), no luck on dating sites, and friends have come and gone.
So to get a sense of my life moving on, I feel I have no choice but to go to a sex worker. I know I could pick somebody up on Tinder, or go dogging, but I don't want to take the risk of someone removing the condom without my consent, or trying to force me into having a sort of sex which I don't want to have. If I go to a sex worker, I can tell him what I want, and that I'm a virgin, and I'm sure he will make it a worthwhile experience for me. I have looked on a few sex worker websites and all I have to do now is save up. Some of you will not agree with what I want to do, but everyone else's lives move on, and mine gets to move on too.
please don't give therapeutic advice -L, Epiphanies Host
I think the suggestion to get out of London is potentially a very good one - you could always live outside of London and commute if finding a new job would be difficult, but it seems to be somewhat of a buyer's market in terms of employment right now (especially in certain sectors like hospitality - I do like the suggestion of a live-in hospitality job). You could also possibly think of retraining or going back to studies, perhaps while subletting your room if you go away to study? There's also the possibility of volunteering at a Christian community of some kind - things like being an Alongsider in a convent or monastery, or volunteering with the Iona Community or something? Teaching English abroad is fairly easy to get into if you have at least a bachelors degree.
I don't, by the way, suggest these things as a way to dissuade you from your plans. I'm not opposed to sex work and I don't think your plans are wrong, per se. However, I do sense that you are at a real crossroads in your life, and perhaps doing something very drastic isn't exactly the same as 'moving on'. It does come across as you being quite 'inside your own head' (I say this as someone who is prone to this myself!), and I think it would likely be beneficial if you had an actual real-life outlet for this stuff before making any concrete plans. I feel like you might need a change of external circumstances in order to be able to release some of your internal 'head stuff'.
please don't give therapeutic advice -L
Thanks
Louise
Epiphanies Host
Very many years ago when I was stuck in the place I was living, I decided to move to a city for more prospects of employment. On the slender grounds that a friend of a friend would put me up, I took the train north. On it I fell into conversation with a young woman. She had what I lacked - a job, a boyfriend (she was on her way to meet), a highly likely future marriage, apparent security. But I had something she envied - freedom.
I arrived north; good things and bad things happened to me. But in the end, more good than bad.
Be free while you can.
I grew up in South Wales in the 70s/80s, when living together outside of marriage was incredibly daring. Many of my friends were therefore married at 16 or 18, often in suspiciously roomy wedding dresses. They were usually divorced by 20 and bringing up kids on their own.
So to be honest, I’m rather glad that no-one got within snogging distance of me until I was 25. And yes, we waited for marriage (at 28, the last of my social circle by some years) and I’m glad we did. The test-drive analogy could have backfired (ha!) in my case.
However, the writings of Messrs LaHaye and Wheat led me into some seriously messed up thinking and caused issues that needed counselling to even attempt overcoming. Their book ‘The Act of Marriage’ is fit only for the bonfire.
Did anyone read Dr Kate Gaddini’s article in Premier Christianity a few weeks ago, commenting on her research showing a declining number of single women in churches?
I've heard it said numerous times that the single male to female ratio is appreciably kinder to women in small towns and rural areas than in big cities, London especially.
It’s surprising that the original poster hasn’t achieved the desired outcome from all the dating websites, but it’s a fact of life that many people will stay single, either for their whole lives of in the stages when the opposite sex is scarce and can be choosy. It’s inevitable when about 52-53 of every100 babies are male, coupled with earlier male mortality.
As others have said, far better to be single than unhappily hitched. And there’s no ‘one size fits all’ way to approach to involuntary singleness sensibly.
I was in school at the same time in (roughly) the same place, but by 1985 there had been a number of (known) teenage pregnancies in our year group (300+, mixed) and fewer weddings. People got engaged when they found out but marriage was delayed until later, even when parents deeply disapproved. My guess is that our pregnancy rate was no better than that in non-Catholic schools nearby, despite a repeated 'no sex before marriage' message. (Mind you, having this told you by visiting priests and bishops did nothing for the message itself)
So even where not waiting = time in hell/purgatory, it had little effect on the RC youth of the 80s.
Well, masturbation is not the same as sex with another person - and I'm slightly confused by reason given being safety reasons, when sex workers are generally in danger from clients and not the other way around. I haven't come across any cases of male sex workers assaulting women clients.
I think casual sex and seeking professional sexual services are quite different things - aside from anything else, it's a sex worker's job to make a client feel comfortable and reassured.
It depends how you define single - legally or functionally.
Although my wife and I don't agree with the church leadership's male headship views, we take the view that it's of secondary importance. and stay put. We're both involved in areas of activity, make our views known, and find much agreement from other members. We see the ideology as unsustainable if it's driving women away as much as we (but not you) believe it is.
I've always thought men outnumber women amongst the genuinely single in evangelical circles, at least amongst the under-30s. It did in most of the 6 churches I attended in 4 cities in the 1980s as a young chap, and I believe the imbalance is growing. That said, the (im)balance seems to swing the other way in the following few years of life.
Though that said, I know a number of people who have been threatened and financially exploited - usually by people controlling the sex worker rather than the individual themselves. (That has been in the context of men using female sex workers,)
From any church attendance figures I've ever seen it's a feature of specific churches, but in general the latter still holds.
However, all the interesting men I met were on the lecturing side and doing it to support their growing families.
Correction, almost all. Others had baggage.
Well, that depends.
There are plenty of couples who choose, for whatever reason, not to marry, but are in relationships that are just as adult and permanent as an average marriage.
But there are also lots of couples whose relationship hasn't reached that state. Someone might reasonably bring a boyfriend or girlfriend to church with them when they've only been dating a short while. I think I'd been seeing Mrs C for about 6 weeks before she took me to her church. At that point, our relationship was very much lesser, and less adult, than that of most married couples. We didn't know if it was going to turn in to something permanent or not.
Were we single? Well, we expected each other not to date other people, but wouldn't have expected to be invited as a guest to a wedding that the other was invited to. As far as young women attending @Lockupchap's church goes, there's a difference between "currently off the market" and "permanently off the market".
I read Lockupchap's post as meaning that sort of situation. For as long as we were "boyfriend" and "girlfriend" rather than "fiance" and "fiancee" we were single.
Thanks for your posts. I don't have much to add, but this jumped out at me. I am one of the few remaining UK Methodists - not a denomination in which I would imagine you would find true love, if I am honest, given our ages - and one of our formal prayers contains the following
I am no longer my own but yours.
Put me to what you will,
rank me with whom you will;
put me to doing,
put me to suffering;
let me be employed for you,
or laid aside for you,
exalted for you,
or brought low for you;
let me be full,
let me be empty,
let me have all things,
let me have nothing:
There's another one which has something in it about how our jobs might align well with our interests and abilities - or might fail to do so with either. I wish I could find that one, but at the moment I can't.
So - I think sometimes Christians can be realistic that 'God's plan' might not at all be a big house and a husband and children. From the gospels, this seems obvious - 'foxes have holes, birds have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head' - there's loads and loads of texts like that. But churches sometimes steer clear of that stuff. I find them suspect when they do, because life is more like that, than the other.
Lastly I would say that about half of marriages end in divorce, and of the half which remain, I reckon (straw poll of those I know well) most are unhappy. If I'm right, more than 3/4 of relationships, don't really work. I know it's easier to say that from within such a relationship, than from outside longing for something which might not exist.
Good luck. I find (well, found) sex to be something which joins people together, a kind of bonding thing; I wouldn't fancy it with a sex worker for that reason. I regret the pain I caused others in failed sexual relationships when I was much younger, when those bonds got well and truly mangled. I might just be a softie, and my views might be bullshit.
As a generalisation, that's supported by the data. Both nationally and globally. But a breakdown into demographics and types of churches could show interesting results. Our overall ratio is almost exactly 50/50 male/female, with a large number of widows over 70 being counterbalanced by more men in the 20-35 age range, a trend I've seen for many years in so-called con evo churches.
Yes, I was referring to times when I have seen it broken down by age cohorts, rather than just raw numbers of each genders.
To my kids, 'single' = not in a relationship. It does not mean 'not married', 'not engaged' or 'not living together'. Their use is much narrower than the traditional/legal definition of 'not married', effectively meaning 'on my own at the moment'.
It's the same with my kids. In fact, there seems to be several degrees of relationship including "seeing someone" (not being boyfriend/girlfriend/partners though), being "an item" (which I think would be being boyfriend/girlfriend/partners) and being "committed" (in for the long term). That all comes before any conversation about marriage or civil partnerships.
Interesting. I guess, particularly in a church context but probably others as well, people in my circle wouldn't admit to unhappiness although most married people I know would say marriage is "hard work" and that could mean a whole lot of things.
@Alto16 , thank you for your honesty. I hope you find a good way forward.
I would say that happiness is less important than contentedness. Happiness seems a fleeting thing, like beauty. Someone you can snuggle on the sofa with and sigh contentedly seems a better bet for longevity of the marriage, at least as age sets in and the need for adrenaline hits ramps down.
Shutting the windows I want kept open, not so much.
And from a long time ago, in the days between the wars, when there were surplus women, there was an interesting set up in my family which the expressions about relationships reminded me of. There was "walking out", which was definitely something which had an air of committment about it, an expectation of leading on to something more permanent. One of my mother's cousins, or mother's generation, not entirely clear which, carried on walking out every Sunday with a man who had not married her but chosen someone else as his wife. This went on for life, and attracted some curious attitudes from outsiders, but was accepted. Apparently by the wife, as well.
Whatever the man was the likely winner.
Hard lines for both the wife and the walking companion, methinks.
St Augustine for example?
My son was given a copy of every young man's battle; Strategies for Victory in the Real World of Sexual Temptation by the church youth group when he was 16. Some of the testimonies in it are of the "I had a wild time, here's why you shouldn't variety."
Advice to anyone who thinks this book might be a good idea for a present for a teenage boy- Don't!
My daughter was given a similar book, but I can't remember what hers was called - she donated hers straight to the charity shop.
Probably Anything Bad Happens to You, It's Your Fault.
One of the loveliest weddings I have played the organ for was of a couple of friends. She had never married and was in her 60s, he was a widower in his 70s. Both parishioners of ours. They had a superb few years together.
The attitude of some churches towards sex is to my mind basically dirty-minded and unChristian. As though God had made a dreadful mistake in creating it (yeah, I know, evolution and all that.)
I'm afraid my evangelical book like that would be titled, "Masturbation is the sin against the Holy Ghost" (2nd edition with a special chapter chapter on the evils of erotica).
How did any of us survive? Ah, there's the grace of God for you ....
It doesn't actually get as far as telling the young boy about 'The Facts of Life'. One can only assume that has to wait for 'What a young husband ought to know' which is in the same series. After waffling for 80 pages about plants and animals, it then devotes the remaining 100 pages to terrifying warnings of what will happen to anyone who so much as touches their "Sexual Member".
The photographs of the various worthies commending the work are pretty daunting.
It also appears to have been published as a series of cylinders that the young boy could be made to listen to on the phonograph which might have made it the first audiobook in the world.
How growing boys' psyches this hypocritical egregious drivel affected I would like to guess. Hopefully not many.
p95 to p139.
Things that young men have to guard against include (p108) ...the cumulative effects of renting "Titanic" on Friday night, watching nubile sweat-soaked girls in tight nylon shorts at the track meet on Saturday afternoon, and lightly rubbing your genitals against a girl during the slow dance at the Saturday night social...
It starts with watching "Titanic" (certificate 12A) and it's all a rapid descent into sin from there.
Wellll....Titanic was a sexual awakening for many a Millennial, regardless of the 12A certificate. See the (excellent) film Yes God Yes - both the initial short film and the feature-length one - for details. In fairness though it doesn't seem to have been a sexual awakening for cis men at all...
I do hope we have seen the back of this nonsense.
I am a Methodist too, and there is no way I am finding love at my church. I attend because I prefer traditional worship, and I appreciate that the ministers admit when they don't have any easy answers to some of life's agonising situations. Believe it or not, I transferred to that church from Nicky Gumbel's Holy Trinity Brompton - after 6 years there I got fed up with the promises of a wonderful life which seemed to happen to everyone else, but not me. All my contemporaries were middle class, whereas I am not.
Thank you to everyone who replied to this thread. Whether or not to see a sex worker is not an easy decision to make, I don't know how I would feel after the encounter - relieved, guilty etc. And then there is the dilemma of whether to tell a future boyfriend, and if I did, would he understand, or would he get angry and finish with me etc.
It has been great to find somewhere to share what I have been through, and I hope my life moves on in some way soon.
Kind regards,
Alto 16