I understand he was in and out in less than an hour, which leads me to ask - why did he have to attend a jail rather than police station to be arrested if he wasn’t going to be remanded in custody until trial ?
He wasn’t just arrested, he was booked. My understanding is that in Georgia, the jail and not the police department is where bookings are done, so anyone arrested would be taken to the jail.
Sue Lyon's iconic lollipop-and-sunglasses shot in Lolita as well.
Completely Irrelevant Tangent: While that image is iconic, it is interesting to note that it never occurs in the film itself. It was on the poster and publicity for the movie, but never appears in the movie. In fact, I believe that even the sunglasses that she is wearing in that shot are different from the sunglasses she actually wears in the film.
I understand he was in and out in less than an hour, which leads me to ask - why did he have to attend a jail rather than police station to be arrested if he wasn’t going to be remanded in custody until trial ?
He wasn’t just arrested, he was booked. My understanding is that in Georgia, the jail and not the police department is where bookings are done, so anyone arrested would be taken to the jail.
Thanks, over here I think all that is done at a police station.
Sue Lyon's iconic lollipop-and-sunglasses shot in Lolita as well.
Completely Irrelevant Tangent: While that image is iconic, it is interesting to note that it never occurs in the film itself. It was on the poster and publicity for the movie, but never appears in the movie. In fact, I believe that even the sunglasses that she is wearing in that shot are different from the sunglasses she actually wears in the film.
Ya know, I actually thought of that after I posted, whether the lollipop-and-shades are in the film itself.
And I do believe you're correct. I think the closest you get in the movie is Dolores on the lawn in a bikini, which has the shades(as you say, a different model), but not the lollipop. And her head in that scene isn't quite in a full Kubrick Stare.
Plus, looking at the poster again, I don't think that's a photo, but a painting of some sort. So, probably not even constructed by Kubrick.
Some places just have the facilities there, I assume. I know that when I got maybe-kinda-not-I-hope arrested, the fingerprinting place was five feet from the jail cell. They didn't do a mugshot. (Got arrested because nosy racist neighbor caught my husband replacing a piece of trim on the garage, called in the code police who decided (racist town, remember) that it was actually weightbearing and therefore required a permit, and THEN decided it was appropriate to haul in (without notice) the first person on the deed to the house--which was me.
In the UK, possibly not in the USA, bail doesn’t necessarily involve money and being remanded in custody can be court ordered without the option of bail.
Criminal defendants in the U.S. are sometimes released on their own recognizance, essentially nothing more than their promise to show up at trial. This is usually the case for minor, non-violent misdemeanors. At the other end of the scale are accused criminals who are considered to be either flight risks or a danger to the community who can be denied pre-trial release. This is pretty serious since the Eighth Amendment guarantees the right to release on bail.
Donald Trump P01135809 and his alleged co-conspirators are accused of some pretty serious felonies, so requiring bail is very reasonable.
In the UK, possibly not in the USA, bail doesn’t necessarily involve money and being remanded in custody can be court ordered without the option of bail.
Georgia has cash bail, Trump's was $200k
He used a local bondsman to post the bail, which means he only paid a percentage of it. Georgia law says he would have to pay 12~15% max.
Reports are his physical measurements were presubmitted.
Typical American Justice at work. The only Trump co-defemdant that has been remanded to jail is black, the only black in among the 19 defendants. Report here.
Typical American Justice at work. The only Trump co-defemdant that has been remanded to jail is black, the only black in among the 19 defendants. Report here.
He's also the only Trump P01135809 co-defendant that we know of who is also accused (in a separate case) of assaulting an FBI agent who tried to serve him a subpœna. That's the kind of thing that can get you ruled flight risk and a danger to others, as seems to be the official reason here.
Typical American Justice at work. The only Trump co-defemdant that has been remanded to jail is black, the only black in among the 19 defendants. Report here.
He's also the only Trump P01135809 co-defendant that we know of who is also accused (in a separate case) of assaulting an FBI agent who tried to serve him a subpœna. That's the kind of thing that can get you ruled flight risk and a danger to others, as seems to be the official reason here.
Question, the report also says he asked for a public defender which was denied. Can you expand on that?
Question, the report also says he asked for a public defender which was denied. Can you expand on that?
I can't find any citation for it, but most states reserve public defenders for indigent defendants. My guess is that Floyd P01135804 does not fall within whatever definition Georgia has for "indigent".
From the FAQ page of the Atlanta Public Defenders Office.
How do I know if I qualify for a Public Defender?
Qualification is primarily based on your financial circumstances. A judge will review your completed application to determine whether you are indigent. Upon approval, the court will appoint the Office of the Public Defender to represent you in your legal case.
Typical American Justice at work. The only Trump co-defemdant that has been remanded to jail is black, the only black in among the 19 defendants. Report here.
He's also the only Trump P01135809 co-defendant that we know of who is also accused (in a separate case) of assaulting an FBI agent who tried to serve him a subpœna. That's the kind of thing that can get you ruled flight risk and a danger to others, as seems to be the official reason here.
And FWIW, that "separate case"
is also related to Trump's attempts at overturning the 2020 election.
So, Floyd P01135804 saying he did not want to put his family in that kind of debt ($40,000 to $100,000) does necessarily qualify as indigent. I get that.
If he did the crime, he should pay the consequences, including legal representation, if he can afford it.
Probably none of the 18 codefendants can afford the costs of defending themselves in court. I am sure that is why the AG in the case is hoping some of them will cut a deal so she can go for the big cheese, P01135809.
I would think P01135809 would want to keep them happy and willingly pay for their defense. But that may be against RICO too.
Probably none of the 18 codefendants can afford the costs of defending themselves in court. I am sure that is why the AG in the case is hoping some of them will cut a deal so she can go for the big cheese, P01135809.
The AG has nothing to do with these cases. And some of the defendants can certainly afford the cost of defending themselves in court. My guess is that the DA’s hopes for cutting any deals with some of the defendants are primarily based on the expectation they’ll want to avoid or lessen any time in prison.
I would think P01135809 would want to keep them happy and willingly pay for their defense. But that may be against RICO too.
So in addition to Ken Chesebro P01135766, Sidney Powell P01135778 has asked for a speedy trial. Chesebro P01135766's trial is scheduled to begin on October 23. I guess the question is whether Chesebro P01135766 and Powell P01135778 will be tried together or separately. On one hand District Attorney Willis has stated a preference for trying all the defendants together. On the other Chesebro P01135766 and Powell P01135778 are not accused of any of the same offenses other than the RICO violation that everyone is accused of.
Is that before or after the presidential election ?
The presidential election is on the first Tuesday of the first week in November in 2024.
Here's a quick timeline of future legal and electoral events. Legal events are in bold.
6 Sept 2023 - Trump P01135809 and eighteen co-defendants arraigned in Georgia
27 Sept 2023 - Second Republican presidential debate
2 Oct 2023 - Trump P01135809 civil fraud trial scheduled to begin in Manhattan
23 Oct 2023 - Trump P01135809 alleged co-conspirator Ken Chesebro P0113576's trial starts
15 Jan 2024 - Iowa Republican caucuses
15 Jan 2024 - Second E. Jean Carroll defamation suit starts
?? Jan 2024 - New Hampshire Republican primary
29 Jan 2024 - Trump P01135809 pyramid scheme trial starts
6-8 Feb 2024 - Nevada Republican caucus/primary
24 Feb 2024 - Republican South Carolina primary
27 Feb 2024 - Michigan Republican primary
2 Mar 2024 - Idaho Republican caucus
3 Mar 2024 - District of Columbia primary
4 Mar 2024 - January 6 trial scheduled to start
5 Mar 2024 - Super Tuesday
12 Mar 2024 - Georgia, Mississippi, and Washington state primaries
25 Mar 2024 - Hush money trial starts in Manhattan
20 May 2024 - Start of classified documents trial
15-18 Jul 2024 - Republican national convention
5 Nov 2024 - Election Day
Note that we still don't have an official start date for the Georgia criminal trial (except for Chesebro P0113576). District Attorney Willis originally asked for start date of March 4, 2024 but has since requested moving the date up to October 23, 2023 so the Chese doesn't have to stand (trial) alone.
I don't think we can use Trump's Georgia inmate number in Manhattan, can we? I would think he has another number there.
I'm not absolutely certain, but I don't think New York assigns inmate numbers unless they're actually going to imprison you. Georgia seems like a bit of an outlier as far as that goes.
I don't think we can use Trump's Georgia inmate number in Manhattan, can we? I would think he has another number there.
I'm not absolutely certain, but I don't think New York assigns inmate numbers unless they're actually going to imprison you. Georgia seems like a bit of an outlier as far as that goes.
I guess you are right. All I could find on the Manhattan DA website was a case number. When you think about it, I think it says something about how different states approach a criminal charge. Seems like Georgia has the attitude one is guilty unless proven otherwise a bit.
Trump's complaints about his congested schedule and the difficulties he's going to have campaigning with all these court dates do rather smack of the man who kills both his parents and then throws himself on the mercy of the court because he's an orphan.
[a quick google suggests this is the canonical example of chutzpah, which sounds about right]
Trump's complaints about his congested schedule and the difficulties he's going to have campaigning with all these court dates do rather smack of the man who kills both his parents and then throws himself on the mercy of the court because he's an orphan.
[a quick google suggests this is the canonical example of chutzpah, which sounds about right]
I think it was Judge Chutkan who pointed out that almost everyone accused of a felony has some kind of day job or other time commitment that will be negatively impacted by the judicial process. Trump P01135809 is just complaining because he's not used to his actions having negative consequences (for him). From the New Republic:
Trump was sued and deposed over and over and over, but he always had the money and the legal architecture to wiggle out. Like it or not, there’s a complex calculus involving the extent to which the law will pursue a rich and famous man who builds glitzy buildings and makes donations to the Police Athletic League. Prosecutors, too, have budgets, and they think twice before committing them to the pursuit of people who have the power to fend them off for years.
But once a person enters public life, the calculus changes. Then, the money and power and P.A.L. checks don’t matter anymore. All that can no longer insulate you. Presidents take an oath, and they are subject to federal and state laws. Period.
And so Trump’s great, improbable triumph — his ascension to the presidency — was also his fatal mistake: He finally put himself in a position where the law, however slowly, could catch up with him. He didn’t understand or accept this, of course, because he always thought of himself as above the law. He is probably shocked to find that there are potential consequences to saying to a state official that the official just needs to find him 11,780 votes. There’d never been consequences before for anything.
Just today, as I was flipping through Bing news, I saw a blurb that wondered if Trump was about to flee the country. He has the means to do it.
I got to wondering where could he go. My first bet would be to Russia. But then I started to wonder how long it would take for him to feel the Putin kiss.
Just today, as I was flipping through Bing news, I saw a blurb that wondered if Trump was about to flee the country. He has the means to do it.
I got to wondering where could he go. My first bet would be to Russia. But then I started to wonder how long it would take for him to feel the Putin kiss.
Just today, as I was flipping through Bing news, I saw a blurb that wondered if Trump was about to flee the country. He has the means to do it.
I got to wondering where could he go. My first bet would be to Russia. But then I started to wonder how long it would take for him to feel the Putin kiss.
I don't think any country would take him: most of the plausible candidates are ones that care enough about their relation with the USA to admit such a high-profile(to put it mildly) fugitive.
But if I was gonna bet on one, it would be Israel. Trump has granted more concrete benefits to them than to Russia, eg. moving the embassy to Jerusalem, the Abraham Accords etc, so there are a few favours he could call in.
I'd have doubts whether they'd want to imperil their relationship with the U.S. going forward just to satisfy some sense of gratitude. One could easily argue that he did those things for his own reasons and in his role as president, which has ceased (thank God), and so it's time to look to the future and not piss off the current administration, whatever that may be.
So I'd guess Russia, too. Except I could totally see Putin locking the borders, so to speak, as a kind of final "Fuck you" to him. After all, there's probably not much value left in the man, is there? He spills so freely and paid so little attention while he was in office that I'm guessing anything classified worth knowing has already been drained out of him. And in all other ways he would be a hassle. Probably expecting to sit down at Putin's end of those long, long tables we always see him at.
Naw. I can see him having a hard time finding someone who'd take him. A tiny country somewhere, that thought it might benefit from whatever wealth he has left?
Another strike against a Russian Hospitality scenario is that, as wretched as US/Russia relations have gotten, they can always get worse. There's a zillion little things that Biden is not doing, but could be doing, to give aid and comfort to Ukraine, for example.
I'd lay an outside bet on a South American dictatorship of which Trump has long appeared kind of envious, perhaps Nicaragua, but also give consideration to somewhere with a reputation for ostentation like Brunei. Whether Trump could cope with a predominantly Muslim country (and of course whether they'd want him) is open to question.
I'd lay an outside bet on a South American dictatorship of which Trump has long appeared kind of envious, perhaps Nicaragua...
Has Trump said or done anything to indicate he's envious of Nicaragua?
Not Nicaragua specifically, more the general(isimo) idea of the "President for Life" getting whatever he wants however he wants.
Okay, thanks. Your post made it sound as if Nicaragua specifically would be a likely place for Trump to flee, but I don't think the Sandinistas would want him.
I'd lay an outside bet on a South American dictatorship of which Trump has long appeared kind of envious, perhaps Nicaragua...
Has Trump said or done anything to indicate he's envious of Nicaragua?
Not Nicaragua specifically, more the general(isimo) idea of the "President for Life" getting whatever he wants however he wants.
Okay, thanks. Your post made it sound as if Nicaragua specifically would be a likely place for Trump to flee, but I don't think the Sandinistas would want him.
Yeah, I botched my sentence construction a bit as the thought evolved part way through.
I'd have doubts whether they'd want to imperil their relationship with the U.S. going forward just to satisfy some sense of gratitude. One could easily argue that he did those things for his own reasons and in his role as president, which has ceased (thank God), and so it's time to look to the future and not piss off the current administration, whatever that may be.
So I'd guess Russia, too. Except I could totally see Putin locking the borders, so to speak, as a kind of final "Fuck you" to him. After all, there's probably not much value left in the man, is there? He spills so freely and paid so little attention while he was in office that I'm guessing anything classified worth knowing has already been drained out of him. And in all other ways he would be a hassle. Probably expecting to sit down at Putin's end of those long, long tables we always see him at.
Naw. I can see him having a hard time finding someone who'd take him. A tiny country somewhere, that thought it might benefit from whatever wealth he has left?
Oh yes--North Korea!
I question if there's anything Israel could possibly do to endanger its relationship with the U.S. Any time anyone hints at treating them more like a normal country, cries of "antisemitism!" fill the air like locusts.
Now, there is a move by Georgia State Republicans to prevent Fani Willis from going forward with her prosecution of Trump and company. Some are trying to call for a Special Legislative Session to try to impeach her. Others would like to defund her office, meaning she would not be able to operate without money. Still others want to use a new commission the Legislature formed last spring called the Prosecuting Attorney Qualification Commission which supposedly has the power to remove a prosecutor for cause
There are problems with these options. The Legislature will not be able to impeach and convict Ms Willis without the cooperation of the Democrats. The idea of defunding the prosecutor's office would be against the common understanding of the separation of powers. The Legislature passes laws, but the execution of those laws goes to the executive branch with the supervision of judiciary. I think there would be a kerfuffle in the works there. Several county prosecutors are already challenging the constitutionality of the commission.
I say, damn the torpedoes, Fani, full speed ahead.
The idea of defunding the prosecutor's office would be against the common understanding of the separation of powers. The Legislature passes laws, but the execution of those laws goes to the executive branch with the supervision of judiciary.
The judiciary doesn’t “supervise” the executive, or at least it shouldn’t. It interprets the laws enacted by the legislature and, when called on to do so, determines whether the executive branch has exceeded its authority under the law, failed to act as required by law, or has acted contrary to the federal or state constitutions.
Beyond that, the office of district attorney is a constitutional office that is part of the judicial branch, not the executive branch. (Art. VI, sec. VIII, of the Georgia Constitution.) Attempting to defund a constitutional, judicial office would certainly present a separation of powers issue. It would also prevent that office from prosecuting other crimes, which I’m guessing wouldn’t go over well. My hunch is that the Georgia Supreme Court would take a dim view of the legislature interfering with the judiciary in that way.
I see. In Washington State, we would call that office the prosecuting attorney, and it is under the executive branch. Different strokes for different folks states.
I see several of the ring leaders of the Proud Boys are about to be sentenced between 27 to 33 years for their involvement in the January 6th events. Main charge is conspiracy. Could be the equivalent to a life sentence for a couple of them if they have to serve full term.
If Jack Smith can link Trump to that conspiracy...
I see several of the ring leaders of the Proud Boys are about to be sentenced between 27 to 33 years for their involvement in the January 6th events. Main charge is conspiracy.
Is that 27 to 33 years per person, or the total for all of them combined?
I see several of the ring leaders of the Proud Boys are about to be sentenced between 27 to 33 years for their involvement in the January 6th events. Main charge is conspiracy.
Let me correct myself. Prosecutors are seeking the following sentences
A federal judge on Wednesday held Rudy Giuliani liable in a defamation lawsuit brought by two Georgia election workers who say they were falsely accused of fraud, entering a default judgment against the former New York City mayor and ordering him to pay tens of thousands of dollars in lawyers’ fees.
U.S. District Judge Beryl Howell said the punishment was necessary because Giuliani had ignored his duty as a defendant to turn over information requested by election workers Ruby Freeman and her daughter, Wandrea’ ArShaye Moss, as part of their lawsuit.
Their complaint from December 2021 accused Giuliani, one of Donald Trump’s lawyers and a confidant of the former Republican president, of defaming them by falsely stating that they had engaged in fraud while counting ballots at State Farm Arena in Atlanta. In a statement Wednesday, the women said they had endured a “living nightmare” and an unimaginable “wave of hatred and threats” because of Giuliani’s comments.
Comments
Thanks, over here I think all that is done at a police station.
Ya know, I actually thought of that after I posted, whether the lollipop-and-shades are in the film itself.
And I do believe you're correct. I think the closest you get in the movie is Dolores on the lawn in a bikini, which has the shades(as you say, a different model), but not the lollipop. And her head in that scene isn't quite in a full Kubrick Stare.
Plus, looking at the poster again, I don't think that's a photo, but a painting of some sort. So, probably not even constructed by Kubrick.
Criminal defendants in the U.S. are sometimes released on their own recognizance, essentially nothing more than their promise to show up at trial. This is usually the case for minor, non-violent misdemeanors. At the other end of the scale are accused criminals who are considered to be either flight risks or a danger to the community who can be denied pre-trial release. This is pretty serious since the Eighth Amendment guarantees the right to release on bail.
Donald Trump P01135809 and his alleged co-conspirators are accused of some pretty serious felonies, so requiring bail is very reasonable.
The mugshot reminded me of a very naughty little boy thinking mean thoughts at the parent who caught him doing something he shouldn't have.
He used a local bondsman to post the bail, which means he only paid a percentage of it. Georgia law says he would have to pay 12~15% max.
Reports are his physical measurements were presubmitted.
He's also the only Trump P01135809 co-defendant that we know of who is also accused (in a separate case) of assaulting an FBI agent who tried to serve him a subpœna. That's the kind of thing that can get you ruled flight risk and a danger to others, as seems to be the official reason here.
Question, the report also says he asked for a public defender which was denied. Can you expand on that?
I can't find any citation for it, but most states reserve public defenders for indigent defendants. My guess is that Floyd P01135804 does not fall within whatever definition Georgia has for "indigent".
And FWIW, that "separate case"
is also related to Trump's attempts at overturning the 2020 election.
So, Floyd P01135804 saying he did not want to put his family in that kind of debt ($40,000 to $100,000) does necessarily qualify as indigent. I get that.
If he did the crime, he should pay the consequences, including legal representation, if he can afford it.
Probably none of the 18 codefendants can afford the costs of defending themselves in court. I am sure that is why the AG in the case is hoping some of them will cut a deal so she can go for the big cheese, P01135809.
I would think P01135809 would want to keep them happy and willingly pay for their defense. But that may be against RICO too.
It would also be totally against his nature.
The presidential election is on the first Tuesday of the first week in November in 2024.
Here's a quick timeline of future legal and electoral events. Legal events are in bold.
6 Sept 2023 - Trump P01135809 and eighteen co-defendants arraigned in Georgia
27 Sept 2023 - Second Republican presidential debate
2 Oct 2023 - Trump P01135809 civil fraud trial scheduled to begin in Manhattan
23 Oct 2023 - Trump P01135809 alleged co-conspirator Ken Chesebro P0113576's trial starts
15 Jan 2024 - Iowa Republican caucuses
15 Jan 2024 - Second E. Jean Carroll defamation suit starts
?? Jan 2024 - New Hampshire Republican primary
29 Jan 2024 - Trump P01135809 pyramid scheme trial starts
6-8 Feb 2024 - Nevada Republican caucus/primary
24 Feb 2024 - Republican South Carolina primary
27 Feb 2024 - Michigan Republican primary
2 Mar 2024 - Idaho Republican caucus
3 Mar 2024 - District of Columbia primary
4 Mar 2024 - January 6 trial scheduled to start
5 Mar 2024 - Super Tuesday
12 Mar 2024 - Georgia, Mississippi, and Washington state primaries
25 Mar 2024 - Hush money trial starts in Manhattan
20 May 2024 - Start of classified documents trial
15-18 Jul 2024 - Republican national convention
5 Nov 2024 - Election Day
Note that we still don't have an official start date for the Georgia criminal trial (except for Chesebro P0113576). District Attorney Willis originally asked for start date of March 4, 2024 but has since requested moving the date up to October 23, 2023 so the Chese doesn't have to stand (trial) alone.
I'm not absolutely certain, but I don't think New York assigns inmate numbers unless they're actually going to imprison you. Georgia seems like a bit of an outlier as far as that goes.
I guess you are right. All I could find on the Manhattan DA website was a case number. When you think about it, I think it says something about how different states approach a criminal charge. Seems like Georgia has the attitude one is guilty unless proven otherwise a bit.
[a quick google suggests this is the canonical example of chutzpah, which sounds about right]
I think it was Judge Chutkan who pointed out that almost everyone accused of a felony has some kind of day job or other time commitment that will be negatively impacted by the judicial process. Trump P01135809 is just complaining because he's not used to his actions having negative consequences (for him). From the New Republic:
I got to wondering where could he go. My first bet would be to Russia. But then I started to wonder how long it would take for him to feel the Putin kiss.
Would that be such a bad thing?
I don't think any country would take him: most of the plausible candidates are ones that care enough about their relation with the USA to admit such a high-profile(to put it mildly) fugitive.
But if I was gonna bet on one, it would be Israel. Trump has granted more concrete benefits to them than to Russia, eg. moving the embassy to Jerusalem, the Abraham Accords etc, so there are a few favours he could call in.
So I'd guess Russia, too. Except I could totally see Putin locking the borders, so to speak, as a kind of final "Fuck you" to him. After all, there's probably not much value left in the man, is there? He spills so freely and paid so little attention while he was in office that I'm guessing anything classified worth knowing has already been drained out of him. And in all other ways he would be a hassle. Probably expecting to sit down at Putin's end of those long, long tables we always see him at.
Naw. I can see him having a hard time finding someone who'd take him. A tiny country somewhere, that thought it might benefit from whatever wealth he has left?
Oh yes--North Korea!
Another strike against a Russian Hospitality scenario is that, as wretched as US/Russia relations have gotten, they can always get worse. There's a zillion little things that Biden is not doing, but could be doing, to give aid and comfort to Ukraine, for example.
Has Trump said or done anything to indicate he's envious of Nicaragua?
Not Nicaragua specifically, more the general(isimo) idea of the "President for Life" getting whatever he wants however he wants.
Okay, thanks. Your post made it sound as if Nicaragua specifically would be a likely place for Trump to flee, but I don't think the Sandinistas would want him.
Yeah, I botched my sentence construction a bit as the thought evolved part way through.
I question if there's anything Israel could possibly do to endanger its relationship with the U.S. Any time anyone hints at treating them more like a normal country, cries of "antisemitism!" fill the air like locusts.
There are problems with these options. The Legislature will not be able to impeach and convict Ms Willis without the cooperation of the Democrats. The idea of defunding the prosecutor's office would be against the common understanding of the separation of powers. The Legislature passes laws, but the execution of those laws goes to the executive branch with the supervision of judiciary. I think there would be a kerfuffle in the works there. Several county prosecutors are already challenging the constitutionality of the commission.
I say, damn the torpedoes, Fani, full speed ahead.
Beyond that, the office of district attorney is a constitutional office that is part of the judicial branch, not the executive branch. (Art. VI, sec. VIII, of the Georgia Constitution.) Attempting to defund a constitutional, judicial office would certainly present a separation of powers issue. It would also prevent that office from prosecuting other crimes, which I’m guessing wouldn’t go over well. My hunch is that the Georgia Supreme Court would take a dim view of the legislature interfering with the judiciary in that way.
If Jack Smith can link Trump to that conspiracy...
Is that 27 to 33 years per person, or the total for all of them combined?