Thank you @Kendel - it's always lovely when NT types truly want to understand (as opposed to changing us, which many of them do). In case it's of any interest, I wrote about my journey to faith as an autistic in my blog.
[Edited twice while attempting to get the web links right. Which I hope I have now done...]
@HelenEva , thank you for sharing your blog. I look forward to reading! The first link worked fine. The second didn’t, but I am able to get to the home page of your blog from the the specific post you shared.
@HelenEva thanks - I think I'm beginning to see some commonalities, which is part of what I was hoping to get out of this thread.
I hinted at the pull towards Fundamentalism in my OP and that's been picked up on by a couple of posters since.
I was particularly taken by this bit in your blog:
the kind of religion that I honestly think is the best expression of God’s love on earth is the hospitality, community and flexibility-based church that just screams “being autistic is not what God wants” at me.
I've experienced this - it's related to:
It’s a sad truth for we autistics that Christianity puts so much weight on fellowship, hospitality, warmth of interaction and togetherness because the way those tend to play out in society are exactly what some of us can’t cope with. No, I would not like to join a church group, host a bring-and-share meal, or get involved in a club. No really; I find people exhausting and I can’t taken on extra requirements to socialise, no matter how lovely they would be.
I think an important question for the Church now, then, is how does it present itself so that the way it does things doesn't scream "being autistic is not what God wants"?
Personally, for me, it comes out when we have sermons that talk about how members of the congregation support each other. I don't experience that; I don't know anyone anything like well enough to be in a supported/supporting relationship with them. I find it very hard to get to know anyone that well, and it takes many years to do so. I'm not even sure I know what this support would look like. It does reinforce the sense of being "apart" from the rest of the congregation, who presumably do experience this "support".
I think these comments apply to other people as well. I've never liked the community aspect of church, nor indeed anywhere else. And support is a mysterious idea to me, also joining things. I guess I'm an introvert.
I think if we're to draw a distinction between introversion and autism (and there have been some hotly disputed attempts to link them as part of a continuum), and notwithstanding co-morbidity of the two, I'd suggest that the focus of introversion is about desire to socialise, while autism is about ability.
I'd love to be more sociable but I really haven't a clue how. I tend to find I can socialise over a shared interest - I can talk to other people in the choir, about choir things - but ask me to make small talk and it's not about finding it pointless or not wanting to do it - although there's an element of that - it's about being unable to do it. When I do try, I generally find it clumsy, difficult and awkward.
I've tried learning standard openers - the weather, that sort of thing, but it just dies after a couple of exchanges and I run out of things to say. Small talk remains a foreign language, not just something I find tiring and a bit pointless as an NT introvert would.
Yep. The temptation towards nice neat rules and hard lines is a constant one. I was very fortunate to be raised in traditional, middle of the road CofE Anglicanism as it inoculated me against the worst excesses of fundamentalism, not that I didn't have my moments, particularly in regards to absolutist pacifism (which I'm less convinced of now).
The fact that some of the more fundamentalist settings I was exposed to when young were also the most charismatic (and so liable to implode in interesting ways, as well as having a praxis of inversion of hierarchy) tempered my instinct to go down the route of neat rules.
I think if we're to draw a distinction between introversion and autism (and there have been some hotly disputed attempts to link them as part of a continuum), and notwithstanding co-morbidity of the two, I'd suggest that the focus of introversion is about desire to socialise, while autism is about ability.
I'd love to be more sociable but I really haven't a clue how. I tend to find I can socialise over a shared interest - I can talk to other people in the choir, about choir things - but ask me to make small talk and it's not about finding it pointless or not wanting to do it - although there's an element of that - it's about being unable to do it. When I do try, I generally find it clumsy, difficult and awkward.
I
I've tried learning standard openers - the weather, that sort of thing, but it just dies after a couple of exchanges and I run out of things to say. Small talk remains a foreign language, not just something I find tiring and a bit pointless as an NT introvert would.
That's very interesting. I don't understand any of it really. Being sociable, well, I've heard of it.
I think if we're to draw a distinction between introversion and autism (and there have been some hotly disputed attempts to link them as part of a continuum), and notwithstanding co-morbidity of the two, I'd suggest that the focus of introversion is about desire to socialise, while autism is about ability.
Good distinction. I would refine it by making clear that many autistics can socialise but it's a lot of hard work. I, for example, can do small talk, make nice, make people feel comfortable, smile and make eye contact etc. etc. but it's work. I'm prepared to do work like that at work but I don't want or have the energy to do it all the time.
I think of "peopling" as like exercise. It raises your endorphins and has all kinds of benefits but if you do it too much it can cause pain and damage. If I have to "people" the whole time, including at church, then it's like being forced to run, without respite, on a broken ankle. Not good. I need non-peopling breaks just as much as an athlete needs rest days or healing time.
So many layers here. I am not, so far as I am aware, autistic, but even so a great deal of what's been shared here does ring bells in my own experience of 'church life' for want of a better phrase.
I could never go back to a church that was supposedly all about close fellowship and 'support', but at the same time as a widower living alone - or at least I will be doing so soon when the younger Gamaliette has fully moved out - I don't want to attend a service and go home without talking to anyone.
I'm not the most extrovert fella but I am garrulous (you've noticed? 😉) and have little difficulty getting into conversations with people on trains and so on - even in France in my schoolboy French or in Spain in my worse Spanish.
I think we all need 'non-peopling' times but the degree of that will vary tremendously according to personality type and the extent to which we are 'on the spectrum'. I'm told we are all on it to some extent or other.
My younger daughter's boyfriend has a family dog that is so spectacularly friendly that you want to climb a tree to get away from him. He has that panting doggy laugh and grin and keeps slobbering over everyone he meets. He loves people. He won't leave them alone. As a 'Staffy' he's also quite well built and hard to wrestle when he jumps up at you or flings himself at you. He's lovely but after 30 seconds of him I don't want to see another dog ever again.
Some churches are like that. They slobber all over you and can't understand it when you back off.
As well as the cognitive aspects of faith, rationality and so on I think we also have to factor in the social dimension. I've mentioned my nephew before, how he attends supposedly 'cool' and trendy charismatic evangelical churches despite being theologically liberal.
I am reminded of the occasion - the one occasion - my father darkened the door of the Baptist church in our village. As a non-regular he was of course approached by a member of the Welcome Team.
His report afterwards was he would never go there as they were a right load of nosey buggers wanting to know all about his private life.
The overly friendly and outgoing can be remarkably insensitive to the way they come across to the more reserved amongst us.
@KarlLB - on the literary things you've mentioned, I could be very literal and respond by saying there ain't a great deal of imagery in Tennyson's 'The Charge of the Light Brigade' - it's all about the rhythm and metre.
But I won't, coz I think I 'get' where you are coming from.
I tutor a creative writing group and always struck by how something that moves or affects some in the group leaves others completely cold.
I may post some thoughts about that at some point.
Meanwhile FWIW I deeply regret winding you up about LotR and fantasy literature in the past and unreservedly apologise for doing so.
@Gamma Gamaliel We all have things in common, and I (neurotypical, or n/t) have things in common with my autistic family members for sure. I am sometimes "odd" in ways that they are too. But I am still not a little bit autistic. I am not othered the way they are. I am not expected to mask and fit in the way they are, and so forth. For that reason, the autistic community has made it clear that those of us who are n/t should not claim to be a little autistic.
Very interested to hear peoples thoughts about introvert/extravert in relation to autism. May help to explain why I've never felt I fully fit the profile for either introvert or extravert. As an autistic person (usual caveat, still awaiting diagnosis etc etc) I love the IDEA of having friends, being able to socialise, being part of a supportive community etc (which is why I suppose I like to throw parties for my big birthdays etc) but I haven't got the first idea of how to actually do the social stuff. I can't start a conversation when there isn't already a 'reason' to be speaking to somebody. So for example I tend not to stay to after church coffee, unless I need to speak to someone in the congregation about a specific matter. But I'm perfectly Ok with addressing a group in a semi formal setting, and more than happy to make a fool of myself and be loud and silly (this comes in handy in my library employment where part of my job is to deliver parent and toddler singing sessions each week) ... not really qualities you would expect of an introvert!
Quite. I haven't a clue what to say to people to initiate conversation, so I look like a complete miserable sod leaning against a wall checking my phone or just standing there. That doesn't mean I'm happy with that; I actually left one G&S society because of how miserable it made me that I spent the coffee break alone while everyone else was happily chatting. What I don't know is how to do anything about it.
OTOH, I sing and play solo guitar in pubs of an evening. I happily give presentations to any size crowd mad enough to want to hear me.
It's not necessarily something you can learn. There's a chap I know who is to my mind Obviously Autistic and he comes up to you and stiltedly asks how you are, enquires about family members whose names he has memorised. And I actually feel for him because it's clear he's really uncomfortable and he's following a Small Talk By Numbers script someone has given him. It's really, really awkward and clearly not his natural self.
As regards introversion versus autism, I've wavered a bit on this one, perhaps being both myself so struggling to disentangle them. What I would say is that (as so often in life) I find the difficulties in social interaction more annoying than if I were merely introverted - it's one thing not to care for something; it's quite another to know that you couldn't do it even if you wanted to.
For some reason, I'm reminded of my early 20s when I frequently made the wry observation that my - erm - lack of sexual experience owed little to my virtue and everything to my lack of opportunity.
@Gamma Gamaliel We all have things in common, and I (neurotypical, or n/t) have things in common with my autistic family members for sure. I am sometimes "odd" in ways that they are too. But I am still not a little bit autistic. I am not othered the way they are. I am not expected to mask and fit in the way they are, and so forth. For that reason, the autistic community has made it clear that those of us who are n/t should not claim to be a little autistic.
Sure. Yes, thanks @Gwai and also @Arethosemyfeet. I know ADHD isn't the same as autism but the elder Gamaliette has been diagnosed with that and it's made me more aware of issues around neuro-diversity - but clearly not to the extent that I grasp all the issues and don't make a faux-pas now and again.
I have been very flippant about these kind of issues here in the past but will certainly take heed of your comments here.
I take my hat off to those who have shared their experiences here - particularly @KarlLB who started the thread. Much of what Karl has shared has struck a chord with me - not in a 'I'm also like that' kind of a way - but more in the sense of 'I can see where churches / groups / me as an individual often get it wrong and act or respond inappropriately towards people with autism'.
I think if we're to draw a distinction between introversion and autism (and there have been some hotly disputed attempts to link them as part of a continuum), and notwithstanding co-morbidity of the two, I'd suggest that the focus of introversion is about desire to socialise, while autism is about ability.
I'd love to be more sociable but I really haven't a clue how. I tend to find I can socialise over a shared interest - I can talk to other people in the choir, about choir things - but ask me to make small talk and it's not about finding it pointless or not wanting to do it - although there's an element of that - it's about being unable to do it. When I do try, I generally find it clumsy, difficult and awkward.
I've tried learning standard openers - the weather, that sort of thing, but it just dies after a couple of exchanges and I run out of things to say. Small talk remains a foreign language, not just something I find tiring and a bit pointless as an NT introvert would.
Oh I identify with that. And when I do try small talk it can be clumsy and inappropriate. So I tend to keep quiet or hide behind joking which can quickly become inappropriate for the situation. Chatting is a skill I just dont have.
@KarlLB@HelenEva@chrisstiles@quetzalcoatl@Arethosemyfeet@Alan29@Gracious Rebel I hope I haven’t left anyone out. All or most of you have mentioned the challenge of the social aspects of being part of a church — dealing with people, wanting to engage with people but finding it really difficult, feeling overwhelmed by so many people and the social demands that come with being around them, etc.
Is it possible to imagine or describe how church settings might work better for you?
I’ve also been wondering about the kinds of roles that ND, specifically autistic people, hold in churches. Does any of you hold any kind of paid or volunteer position, at your church? I mean any position. Teacher, committee chair, etc. If so, how does this help you connect more with the congregation (if at all)? Do you feel that such a position helps you “be heard” better in the church?
Thanks for any replies. @HelenEva I got to read around your blog a bit today. It’s outstanding and very helpful for an NT like me to be able to read. Thank you for sharing it and putting so much work into it.
I'm in the privileged position of being part of a very small Church of Scotland congregation, of which I am (officially) treasurer and (unofficially) techie, music director, precentor, occasional worship leader, and General Ideas Man And Finder Out Of Things. This means that in most church gatherings I have church business to discuss or new Ideas to float, so the dreaded small talk can largely be avoided. It occurs to me to wonder, now, whether some of the renovation work has only got done because I needed something to talk about.
I can certainly empathise with those who find it easier to talk in formal or semi-formal settings. My problem tends to be knowing when to shut up, as I feel like if I have an idea I need to share it and I worry that I dominate meetings.
It's hard to discern what I would want churches to do/not do from what autistic people en masse might want.
I hate action songs and wish churches wouldn't do them. I feel like I look a complete weapon doing actions, and a stands out like a sore thumb miserable bastard if I don't. Hard choice. Autistic thing or not? Don't know. Interestingly I get the same "what do I look like" thing with genuflection, crossing and so on. Austism or just me? Dunno.
Assuming people can just mingle and chat is probably a generic difficulty. Assuming strangers want to be "lovingly welcomed". Come on NTs, you're meant to be good at reading people and knowing what they're thinking. The people who smothered my father on his only visit to one church certainly didn't!
And for the love of God don't expect us to "find someone we don't know very well and talk to them". Let us decide who we want to sit with at events where there are sit down meals. I know you mean well with ensuring no-one's on their own but a table full of complete strangers isn't the answer. If ND people are really socially isolated then look into your activities to figure out why. Essentially, I (and this may be introversion as much as autism) need things to talk about and activities with a purpose. You're more likely to get to know me if we organise a walk in the hills than have a coffee morning for the sake of it. If I turn up to the latter likely I'll have a coffee and a biscuit, have a superficial and awkward How's The Family talk with one or two people, hang around counting the rafters and figuring out if the walls of the chancel align with those of the narthex, and then leave.
I've been in the choir for about a year. I know a few people to talk to now; one or two I even know the names of. That's how hard it is.
I'm in the privileged position of being part of a very small Church of Scotland congregation, of which I am (officially) treasurer and (unofficially) techie, music director, precentor, occasional worship leader, and General Ideas Man And Finder Out Of Things. This means that in most church gatherings I have church business to discuss or new Ideas to float, so the dreaded small talk can largely be avoided. It occurs to me to wonder, now, whether some of the renovation work has only got done because I needed something to talk about.
I can certainly empathise with those who find it easier to talk in formal or semi-formal settings. My problem tends to be knowing when to shut up, as I feel like if I have an idea I need to share it and I worry that I dominate meetings.
Oh aye, when it gets onto something where you have a contribution it can be difficult *not* to speak.
<snip>Come on NTs, you're meant to be good at reading people and knowing what they're thinking. <snip>
Aside from the fact that people’s ability to understand others seems to be very variable (introverts and extroverts anyone?) there is also the double empathy problem.
It's hard to discern what I would want churches to do/not do from what autistic people en masse might want.
I hate action songs and wish churches wouldn't do them. I feel like I look a complete weapon doing actions, and a stands out like a sore thumb miserable bastard if I don't. Hard choice. Autistic thing or not? Don't know. Interestingly I get the same "what do I look like" thing with genuflection, crossing and so on. Austism or just me? Dunno.
Assuming people can just mingle and chat is probably a generic difficulty. Assuming strangers want to be "lovingly welcomed". Come on NTs, you're meant to be good at reading people and knowing what they're thinking. The people who smothered my father on his only visit to one church certainly didn't!
I’m NT and I share your dislike of action songs, I think that is very common and I think feeling self conscious about liturgical actions is also probably quite common.
As to the welcoming thing, difficult to say - without knowing exactly what they were doing. I know I wandered into an evo church service once and was somewhat freaked out by the level of attention at the end of it - I think they wanted contact details etc. but then again I don’t think that is what people usually do if they are trying to be welcoming.
If anyone is interested, Watching the English makes a lot of the unwritten rules of English social behaviour explicit and explains their functions (including how and why small talk is supposed to work.)
I'm the organist so I have a very clearly defined role to hide behind. But I avoid social gatherings. Even the post-service coffee is difficult, so I take mine back to the organ and quietly play.
My wife is the opposite and is very social and involved with a lot of church organisations and activities, so we are often among the very last to leave. At times I find this super-challenging.
@KarlLB@HelenEva@chrisstiles@quetzalcoatl@Arethosemyfeet@Alan29@Gracious Rebel I hope I haven’t left anyone out. All or most of you have mentioned the challenge of the social aspects of being part of a church — dealing with people, wanting to engage with people but finding it really difficult, feeling overwhelmed by so many people and the social demands that come with being around them, etc.
Is it possible to imagine or describe how church settings might work better for you?
As to how church settings can work better, I wonder if the resurgence in attendance at cathedrals might be relevant. A cathedral service can be ultimately welcoming because it's usually to a planned structure with a book to follow (think Evensong for example) so there are no surprises, nothing spontaneous and no requirement for participation if you're not in that space right now. It probably comes with a leaflet of instructions so you don't have to ask what to do, and no-one expects you to know anyone particularly so you can say "hello" to the person in the next pew and there's not requirement to make friends with them if "hello" is your limit. If I'm really up against it in life and need some church for me, rather than anyone else's benefit, I go to a cathedral.
Thank you @Kendel and @Twangist for your kind comments on my blog!
As far as church duties and responsibilities are concerned, I am the webmaster for my church, sing in the choir and serve on the diaconate. (The church is an ecumenical partnership belonging to both BUGB and URC). Several times a year this means I have to be 'duty deacon' on a Sunday morning which causes me some stress and worry as the duties are not always clearly defined and involve things like having to check that various people are in place to fill the rotas for coffee stewards etc and I do not know everyone's name, or know what to do if someone isn't there....just find the whole thing intensely awkward. Other duties such as getting coffee for a visiting preacher before the service, and offering to pray with them is easier for me to deal with, but I know that at least one other deacon (who is NT) finds the prayer bit intensely difficult.
As far as church duties and responsibilities are concerned, I am the webmaster for my church, sing in the choir and serve on the diaconate. (The church is an ecumenical partnership belonging to both BUGB and URC). Several times a year this means I have to be 'duty deacon' on a Sunday morning which causes me some stress and worry as the duties are not always clearly defined and involve things like having to check that various people are in place to fill the rotas for coffee stewards etc and I do not know everyone's name, or know what to do if someone isn't there....just find the whole thing intensely awkward. Other duties such as getting coffee for a visiting preacher before the service, and offering to pray with them is easier for me to deal with, but I know that at least one other deacon (who is NT) finds the prayer bit intensely difficult.
Praying with and for people is an absolute no for me. I could lead intercessions if I were called upon to do so, but anything 1:1 interpersonal or ex tempore absolutely never.
I'm sure @Doublethink is right and that discomfort with 'action songs' (ban them! ban them!) and liturgical actions such as genuflecting or crossing oneself isn't confined to ND people. I'm NT so far as I'm aware and find all that difficult too.
Heck, I've been Orthodox over two and a half years now and I still feel self-conscious even though nobody's at all bothered as to whether I do the 'moves' correctly or at all.
I think cathedral worship has much to recommend it for all sorts of reasons. People leave you alone for a start.
If I lived nearer a cathedral - of whatever stripe - I'd visit all the time.
I don't know what I can do as a NT person to help ND people other than to listen, learn and try not to act like a berk - whether here or in real life.
Many years ago I had a client who was autistic, who had somehow managed to get into his fifties without this being recognized (he had been misdiagnosed with all kinds of things, which had led on one occasion to involuntary hospitalization). I just gave him something to read about autism and asked him what he thought, and he recognized himself immediately and went all-in with the identity perspective (he did get a formal assessment so he could get benefits, but he was always insistent on calling himself autistic rather than "person with"). He kept trying to convince me that I was on the spectrum too, because I have some slightly rare niche interests and a flypaper memory for facts and quotations about them, but no, I don't think so, though it is a spectrum and I probably do possess some related traits.
His core interest was religion. When he first came to see me, he was going through a Buddhist phase (intense study of the sutras, which he could recite from memory, as well as knowing all about all the different sects and their theology), but he really identified as Christian and his Buddhism was a temporary reaction to being shoved out of a church for getting on people's nerves. He found another church (of a conservative evangelical stripe) which he joined with enthusiasm, and kind of tried to (in his own mind) appoint himself assistant pastor. He became increasingly frustrated by the fact that the pastor, while appreciative of his help with all kinds of practical matters, did not recognize him as a colleague in spite of his extensive theological knowledge (which he really did have). It seemed to me that he was trying very hard to find a community, but the only way he could imagine doing it was by being useful (in very mundane ways like setting up the tables for a potluck) and by knowing more than anybody else. Sadly, people tend to take the former for granted and to be uninterested in (or just annoyed by) the latter. I do not know how this story played out in the end, but I suspect it wasn't very satisfactory for him.
I am (officially) treasurer and (unofficially) techie, music director, precentor, occasional worship leader, and General Ideas Man And Finder Out Of Things.
In small churches, it’s easy for the willing to become jacks of all trades. It sounds like you have integrated thoroughly into the congregation’s life.
If ND people are really socially isolated then look into your activities to figure out why….
…need things to talk about and activities with a purpose.
I know a few people to talk to now; one or two I even know the names of.
Can we just ban the actions for songs right now — universally?
Reading people is rather an art. (Mind reading is out of the question.) But NTs are also relying on familiar patterns of cues that they may not get from NDs (as well as visually impaired or blind, or people with facial neuro damage, for example). I once experienced a particularly painful conversation with a kind-hearted autistic teen at church who was trying to express empathy but in terms that were tearing my heart out. We both left the exchange alive; I counted that a win.
I like your idea of activities with a purpose. They make initial social interactions a good deal easier.
Thanks for giving an example of how hard it is. That helps.
He became increasingly frustrated by the fact that the pastor, while appreciative of his help with all kinds of practical matters, did not recognize him as a colleague in spite of his extensive theological knowledge (which he really did have).
Resulting from: communication problems? Unreasonably low/high expectations? Unawareness of the ordination process? Etc.
Is this a common thing in UK churches? It hasn’t been in the churches I’ve attended in the US, but ever so often somebody trys to sneak one in at some event outside of regular service.
Oh. Wait! Or is it songs the choir sings? I’ve never been in the choir.
My chari church does action songs occasionally but we are quite used to movement and dancing, sometimes spontaneous, within our services. We also have over 100 children in our church and a very informal attitude towards their presence. Some of our action songs are African in origin, as we have a very culturally and nationally mixed church.
Is this a common thing in UK churches? It hasn’t been in the churches I’ve attended in the US, but ever so often somebody trys to sneak one in at some event outside of regular service.
Oh. Wait! Or is it songs the choir sings? I’ve never been in the choir.
No, it's songs (usually already crappy ones) with prescribed actions for the congregation.
Just as an aside - we've identified a dislike of action songs that goes across NT and ND posters - no-one's spoken in favour of them.
Why do we do them?
I guess churches do action songs because the adults imagine the children enjoy them and/or the messages stick better with children when there's an action as a memory prompt.
That said the worst action song I've ever seen was at a confirmation service - the confirmation candidates (aged about 11-12) were made to do the actions at the front of the congregation. The expressions of embarrassment on their faces were awful. I dare say more than one nascent christian journey was brought to a crashing halt that day. But all with the best intentions.
If they've got enough maturity to be confirmed then they're far too mature to be made to do stupid baby actions at the front. I wanted to scream at the vicar. But didn't.
I'm a retired teacher and Sunday school leader.
Action songs (and rhymes) both faith based (eg Wide, wide as the ocean) and not (eg Wind the bobbin up), had a really helpful part to play in teaching scenarios with children under the age of six.
IMO thereafter they are an embarrassment, especially if you hate drawing attention to yourself.
However when I was based in Kenya, singing by adults both in church and in the community was often accompanied by movement/ action. So culture plays a part too.
I'm a retired teacher and Sunday school leader.
Action songs (and rhymes) both faith based (eg Wide, wide as the ocean) and not (eg Wind the bobbin up), had a really helpful part to play in teaching scenarios with children under the age of six.
IMO thereafter they are an embarrassment, especially if you hate drawing attention to yourself.
However when I was based in Kenya, singing by adults both in church and in the community was often accompanied by movement/ action. So culture plays a part too.
Oh, it's often accompanied by movement and action here, but the question is whether it's willing and enthusiastic participation in movement and action.
I'm a retired teacher and Sunday school leader.
Action songs (and rhymes) both faith based (eg Wide, wide as the ocean) and not (eg Wind the bobbin up), had a really helpful part to play in teaching scenarios with children under the age of six.
IMO thereafter they are an embarrassment, especially if you hate drawing attention to yourself.
However when I was based in Kenya, singing by adults both in church and in the community was often accompanied by movement/ action. So culture plays a part too.
Oh, it's often accompanied by movement and action here, but the question is whether it's willing and enthusiastic participation in movement and action.
Oh I know and I shudder at the thought but I do know people here in the UK who seem to enjoy it! I'd say that in Kenya that it was mostly a willing participation as far as I could see, nobody looked uncomfortable and people would join in as much as they wished. However my church experience there was mainly Anglican churches which tended to be more liturgical.
Is this a common thing in UK churches? It hasn’t been in the churches I’ve attended in the US, but ever so often somebody trys to sneak one in at some event outside of regular service.
From discussions on the Ship over the years, I got the impression that action songs in church are much more common in the UK than they are in the US, or at least in my corner of the US. I’ve rarely encountered action songs in US churches—at least not in services. In my experience they’re almost always children’s songs, and they mainly (as in 97% of the time) occur in children’s Sunday school, vacation Bible school or some other gathering of children. Or perhaps on an all-age retreat. On the rare occasion they do occur in the context of a service, my experience is that it’s invariably in a context geared toward children
Is this a common thing in UK churches? It hasn’t been in the churches I’ve attended in the US, but ever so often somebody trys to sneak one in at some event outside of regular service.
From discussions on the Ship over the years, I got the impression that action songs in church are much more common in the UK than they are in the US, or at least in my corner of the US. I’ve rarely encountered action songs in US churches—at least not in services. In my experience they’re almost always children’s songs, and they mainly (as in 97% of the time) occur in children’s Sunday school, vacation Bible school or some other gathering of children. Or perhaps on an all-age retreat. On the rare occasion they do occur in the context of a service, my experience is that it’s invariably in a context geared toward children
What tends to happen here is there is a Hymn/Song Before The Children Go Out To Their Activities. That's the danger slot for all sorts of musically adjacent horrors including Action Songs.
But I still have shudder memories of evening services aimed at adults where the congregation was encouraged to do "one potato, two potato" actions to "I will build my church" and oh God I thought I'd forgotten this but obviously not a series of actions to the second part of "Blessed be the name of the Lord"*
*details now escape me but hands up in the air for "a strong tower" and running on the spot for "the righteous run into it".
Argh I need a beer or six now. Make it stop! Make it stop!
Is this a common thing in UK churches? It hasn’t been in the churches I’ve attended in the US, but ever so often somebody trys to sneak one in at some event outside of regular service.
From discussions on the Ship over the years, I got the impression that action songs in church are much more common in the UK than they are in the US, or at least in my corner of the US. I’ve rarely encountered action songs in US churches—at least not in services. In my experience they’re almost always children’s songs, and they mainly (as in 97% of the time) occur in children’s Sunday school, vacation Bible school or some other gathering of children. Or perhaps on an all-age retreat. On the rare occasion they do occur in the context of a service, my experience is that it’s invariably in a context geared toward children
What tends to happen here is there is a Hymn/Song Before The Children Go Out To Their Activities. That's the danger slot for all sorts of musically adjacent horrors including Action Songs.
But I still have shudder memories of evening services aimed at adults where the congregation was encouraged to do "one potato, two potato" actions to "I will build my church" and oh God I thought I'd forgotten this but obviously not a series of actions to the second part of "Blessed be the name of the Lord"*
*details now escape me but hands up in the air for "a strong tower" and running on the spot for "the righteous run into it".
Argh I need a beer or six now. Make it stop! Make it stop!
Is this a common thing in UK churches? It hasn’t been in the churches I’ve attended in the US, but ever so often somebody trys to sneak one in at some event outside of regular service.
From discussions on the Ship over the years, I got the impression that action songs in church are much more common in the UK than they are in the US, or at least in my corner of the US. I’ve rarely encountered action songs in US churches—at least not in services. In my experience they’re almost always children’s songs, and they mainly (as in 97% of the time) occur in children’s Sunday school, vacation Bible school or some other gathering of children. Or perhaps on an all-age retreat. On the rare occasion they do occur in the context of a service, my experience is that it’s invariably in a context geared toward children
But I still have shudder memories of evening services aimed at adults where the congregation was encouraged to do "one potato, two potato" actions to "I will build my church" and oh God I thought I'd forgotten this but obviously not a series of actions to the second part of "Blessed be the name of the Lord"*
*details now escape me but hands up in the air for "a strong tower" and running on the spot for "the righteous run into it".
Perhaps I should count myself lucky that neither of those songs—“I will build my church” nor “Blessed be the name of the Lord”—is familiar to me?
Comments
[Edited twice while attempting to get the web links right. Which I hope I have now done...]
I hinted at the pull towards Fundamentalism in my OP and that's been picked up on by a couple of posters since.
I was particularly taken by this bit in your blog:
I've experienced this - it's related to:
I think an important question for the Church now, then, is how does it present itself so that the way it does things doesn't scream "being autistic is not what God wants"?
Personally, for me, it comes out when we have sermons that talk about how members of the congregation support each other. I don't experience that; I don't know anyone anything like well enough to be in a supported/supporting relationship with them. I find it very hard to get to know anyone that well, and it takes many years to do so. I'm not even sure I know what this support would look like. It does reinforce the sense of being "apart" from the rest of the congregation, who presumably do experience this "support".
I'd love to be more sociable but I really haven't a clue how. I tend to find I can socialise over a shared interest - I can talk to other people in the choir, about choir things - but ask me to make small talk and it's not about finding it pointless or not wanting to do it - although there's an element of that - it's about being unable to do it. When I do try, I generally find it clumsy, difficult and awkward.
I've tried learning standard openers - the weather, that sort of thing, but it just dies after a couple of exchanges and I run out of things to say. Small talk remains a foreign language, not just something I find tiring and a bit pointless as an NT introvert would.
The fact that some of the more fundamentalist settings I was exposed to when young were also the most charismatic (and so liable to implode in interesting ways, as well as having a praxis of inversion of hierarchy) tempered my instinct to go down the route of neat rules.
That's very interesting. I don't understand any of it really. Being sociable, well, I've heard of it.
Good distinction. I would refine it by making clear that many autistics can socialise but it's a lot of hard work. I, for example, can do small talk, make nice, make people feel comfortable, smile and make eye contact etc. etc. but it's work. I'm prepared to do work like that at work but I don't want or have the energy to do it all the time.
I think of "peopling" as like exercise. It raises your endorphins and has all kinds of benefits but if you do it too much it can cause pain and damage. If I have to "people" the whole time, including at church, then it's like being forced to run, without respite, on a broken ankle. Not good. I need non-peopling breaks just as much as an athlete needs rest days or healing time.
So many layers here. I am not, so far as I am aware, autistic, but even so a great deal of what's been shared here does ring bells in my own experience of 'church life' for want of a better phrase.
I could never go back to a church that was supposedly all about close fellowship and 'support', but at the same time as a widower living alone - or at least I will be doing so soon when the younger Gamaliette has fully moved out - I don't want to attend a service and go home without talking to anyone.
I'm not the most extrovert fella but I am garrulous (you've noticed? 😉) and have little difficulty getting into conversations with people on trains and so on - even in France in my schoolboy French or in Spain in my worse Spanish.
I think we all need 'non-peopling' times but the degree of that will vary tremendously according to personality type and the extent to which we are 'on the spectrum'. I'm told we are all on it to some extent or other.
My younger daughter's boyfriend has a family dog that is so spectacularly friendly that you want to climb a tree to get away from him. He has that panting doggy laugh and grin and keeps slobbering over everyone he meets. He loves people. He won't leave them alone. As a 'Staffy' he's also quite well built and hard to wrestle when he jumps up at you or flings himself at you. He's lovely but after 30 seconds of him I don't want to see another dog ever again.
Some churches are like that. They slobber all over you and can't understand it when you back off.
As well as the cognitive aspects of faith, rationality and so on I think we also have to factor in the social dimension. I've mentioned my nephew before, how he attends supposedly 'cool' and trendy charismatic evangelical churches despite being theologically liberal.
Why? Because he likes the vibe.
All these things come into play.
His report afterwards was he would never go there as they were a right load of nosey buggers wanting to know all about his private life.
The overly friendly and outgoing can be remarkably insensitive to the way they come across to the more reserved amongst us.
Nope, whoever told you that was ill-informed.
@KarlLB - on the literary things you've mentioned, I could be very literal and respond by saying there ain't a great deal of imagery in Tennyson's 'The Charge of the Light Brigade' - it's all about the rhythm and metre.
But I won't, coz I think I 'get' where you are coming from.
I tutor a creative writing group and always struck by how something that moves or affects some in the group leaves others completely cold.
I may post some thoughts about that at some point.
Meanwhile FWIW I deeply regret winding you up about LotR and fantasy literature in the past and unreservedly apologise for doing so.
OTOH, I sing and play solo guitar in pubs of an evening. I happily give presentations to any size crowd mad enough to want to hear me.
It's not necessarily something you can learn. There's a chap I know who is to my mind Obviously Autistic and he comes up to you and stiltedly asks how you are, enquires about family members whose names he has memorised. And I actually feel for him because it's clear he's really uncomfortable and he's following a Small Talk By Numbers script someone has given him. It's really, really awkward and clearly not his natural self.
As regards introversion versus autism, I've wavered a bit on this one, perhaps being both myself so struggling to disentangle them. What I would say is that (as so often in life) I find the difficulties in social interaction more annoying than if I were merely introverted - it's one thing not to care for something; it's quite another to know that you couldn't do it even if you wanted to.
For some reason, I'm reminded of my early 20s when I frequently made the wry observation that my - erm - lack of sexual experience owed little to my virtue and everything to my lack of opportunity.
Sure. Yes, thanks @Gwai and also @Arethosemyfeet. I know ADHD isn't the same as autism but the elder Gamaliette has been diagnosed with that and it's made me more aware of issues around neuro-diversity - but clearly not to the extent that I grasp all the issues and don't make a faux-pas now and again.
I have been very flippant about these kind of issues here in the past but will certainly take heed of your comments here.
I take my hat off to those who have shared their experiences here - particularly @KarlLB who started the thread. Much of what Karl has shared has struck a chord with me - not in a 'I'm also like that' kind of a way - but more in the sense of 'I can see where churches / groups / me as an individual often get it wrong and act or respond inappropriately towards people with autism'.
Oh I identify with that. And when I do try small talk it can be clumsy and inappropriate. So I tend to keep quiet or hide behind joking which can quickly become inappropriate for the situation. Chatting is a skill I just dont have.
And strongly agreed that listening to adults who have been on paths one's child is now can be extremely helpful.
Is it possible to imagine or describe how church settings might work better for you?
I’ve also been wondering about the kinds of roles that ND, specifically autistic people, hold in churches. Does any of you hold any kind of paid or volunteer position, at your church? I mean any position. Teacher, committee chair, etc. If so, how does this help you connect more with the congregation (if at all)? Do you feel that such a position helps you “be heard” better in the church?
Thanks for any replies.
@HelenEva I got to read around your blog a bit today. It’s outstanding and very helpful for an NT like me to be able to read. Thank you for sharing it and putting so much work into it.
I can certainly empathise with those who find it easier to talk in formal or semi-formal settings. My problem tends to be knowing when to shut up, as I feel like if I have an idea I need to share it and I worry that I dominate meetings.
I hate action songs and wish churches wouldn't do them. I feel like I look a complete weapon doing actions, and a stands out like a sore thumb miserable bastard if I don't. Hard choice. Autistic thing or not? Don't know. Interestingly I get the same "what do I look like" thing with genuflection, crossing and so on. Austism or just me? Dunno.
Assuming people can just mingle and chat is probably a generic difficulty. Assuming strangers want to be "lovingly welcomed". Come on NTs, you're meant to be good at reading people and knowing what they're thinking. The people who smothered my father on his only visit to one church certainly didn't!
And for the love of God don't expect us to "find someone we don't know very well and talk to them". Let us decide who we want to sit with at events where there are sit down meals. I know you mean well with ensuring no-one's on their own but a table full of complete strangers isn't the answer. If ND people are really socially isolated then look into your activities to figure out why. Essentially, I (and this may be introversion as much as autism) need things to talk about and activities with a purpose. You're more likely to get to know me if we organise a walk in the hills than have a coffee morning for the sake of it. If I turn up to the latter likely I'll have a coffee and a biscuit, have a superficial and awkward How's The Family talk with one or two people, hang around counting the rafters and figuring out if the walls of the chancel align with those of the narthex, and then leave.
I've been in the choir for about a year. I know a few people to talk to now; one or two I even know the names of. That's how hard it is.
Oh aye, when it gets onto something where you have a contribution it can be difficult *not* to speak.
Aside from the fact that people’s ability to understand others seems to be very variable (introverts and extroverts anyone?) there is also the double empathy problem.
I’m NT and I share your dislike of action songs, I think that is very common and I think feeling self conscious about liturgical actions is also probably quite common.
As to the welcoming thing, difficult to say - without knowing exactly what they were doing. I know I wandered into an evo church service once and was somewhat freaked out by the level of attention at the end of it - I think they wanted contact details etc. but then again I don’t think that is what people usually do if they are trying to be welcoming.
If anyone is interested, Watching the English makes a lot of the unwritten rules of English social behaviour explicit and explains their functions (including how and why small talk is supposed to work.)
My wife is the opposite and is very social and involved with a lot of church organisations and activities, so we are often among the very last to leave. At times I find this super-challenging.
As several people have said, having a job - such as being in the choir - can be hugely helpful because it gives you a ready-made social circle and a job without actually having to talk to anyone all that much. I can socialise at a musical rehearsal for an hour (i.e. be with people in a companionable sense) and hardly have to speak at all.
As to how church settings can work better, I wonder if the resurgence in attendance at cathedrals might be relevant. A cathedral service can be ultimately welcoming because it's usually to a planned structure with a book to follow (think Evensong for example) so there are no surprises, nothing spontaneous and no requirement for participation if you're not in that space right now. It probably comes with a leaflet of instructions so you don't have to ask what to do, and no-one expects you to know anyone particularly so you can say "hello" to the person in the next pew and there's not requirement to make friends with them if "hello" is your limit. If I'm really up against it in life and need some church for me, rather than anyone else's benefit, I go to a cathedral.
Thank you @Kendel and @Twangist for your kind comments on my blog!
Praying with and for people is an absolute no for me. I could lead intercessions if I were called upon to do so, but anything 1:1 interpersonal or ex tempore absolutely never.
Heck, I've been Orthodox over two and a half years now and I still feel self-conscious even though nobody's at all bothered as to whether I do the 'moves' correctly or at all.
I think cathedral worship has much to recommend it for all sorts of reasons. People leave you alone for a start.
If I lived nearer a cathedral - of whatever stripe - I'd visit all the time.
I don't know what I can do as a NT person to help ND people other than to listen, learn and try not to act like a berk - whether here or in real life.
My tried and tested top tips are:
"try not to act like a berk" is always good though.
His core interest was religion. When he first came to see me, he was going through a Buddhist phase (intense study of the sutras, which he could recite from memory, as well as knowing all about all the different sects and their theology), but he really identified as Christian and his Buddhism was a temporary reaction to being shoved out of a church for getting on people's nerves. He found another church (of a conservative evangelical stripe) which he joined with enthusiasm, and kind of tried to (in his own mind) appoint himself assistant pastor. He became increasingly frustrated by the fact that the pastor, while appreciative of his help with all kinds of practical matters, did not recognize him as a colleague in spite of his extensive theological knowledge (which he really did have). It seemed to me that he was trying very hard to find a community, but the only way he could imagine doing it was by being useful (in very mundane ways like setting up the tables for a potluck) and by knowing more than anybody else. Sadly, people tend to take the former for granted and to be uninterested in (or just annoyed by) the latter. I do not know how this story played out in the end, but I suspect it wasn't very satisfactory for him.
Reading people is rather an art. (Mind reading is out of the question.) But NTs are also relying on familiar patterns of cues that they may not get from NDs (as well as visually impaired or blind, or people with facial neuro damage, for example). I once experienced a particularly painful conversation with a kind-hearted autistic teen at church who was trying to express empathy but in terms that were tearing my heart out. We both left the exchange alive; I counted that a win.
I like your idea of activities with a purpose. They make initial social interactions a good deal easier.
Thanks for giving an example of how hard it is. That helps.
That was really helpful. I’ve experienced exactly that. Thank you. I would never have thought of this, only having visited cathederals as a tourist. Your explanation of why you like cathedrals was illuminating.
That’s a LOT! For anyone!
This is a great list. Thank you.
Resulting from: communication problems? Unreasonably low/high expectations? Unawareness of the ordination process? Etc.
Why do we do them?
Oh. Wait! Or is it songs the choir sings? I’ve never been in the choir.
No, it's songs (usually already crappy ones) with prescribed actions for the congregation.
One is inclined to wish they were proscribed...
I guess churches do action songs because the adults imagine the children enjoy them and/or the messages stick better with children when there's an action as a memory prompt.
That said the worst action song I've ever seen was at a confirmation service - the confirmation candidates (aged about 11-12) were made to do the actions at the front of the congregation. The expressions of embarrassment on their faces were awful. I dare say more than one nascent christian journey was brought to a crashing halt that day. But all with the best intentions.
If they've got enough maturity to be confirmed then they're far too mature to be made to do stupid baby actions at the front. I wanted to scream at the vicar. But didn't.
Action songs (and rhymes) both faith based (eg Wide, wide as the ocean) and not (eg Wind the bobbin up), had a really helpful part to play in teaching scenarios with children under the age of six.
IMO thereafter they are an embarrassment, especially if you hate drawing attention to yourself.
However when I was based in Kenya, singing by adults both in church and in the community was often accompanied by movement/ action. So culture plays a part too.
Oh, it's often accompanied by movement and action here, but the question is whether it's willing and enthusiastic participation in movement and action.
Oh I know and I shudder at the thought but I do know people here in the UK who seem to enjoy it! I'd say that in Kenya that it was mostly a willing participation as far as I could see, nobody looked uncomfortable and people would join in as much as they wished. However my church experience there was mainly Anglican churches which tended to be more liturgical.
What tends to happen here is there is a Hymn/Song Before The Children Go Out To Their Activities. That's the danger slot for all sorts of musically adjacent horrors including Action Songs.
But I still have shudder memories of evening services aimed at adults where the congregation was encouraged to do "one potato, two potato" actions to "I will build my church" and oh God I thought I'd forgotten this but obviously not a series of actions to the second part of "Blessed be the name of the Lord"*
*details now escape me but hands up in the air for "a strong tower" and running on the spot for "the righteous run into it".
Argh I need a beer or six now. Make it stop! Make it stop!
Oh, how I feel your pain!
🤣
Singing confidently while clutching a music edition of the hymn book will suffice in a pinch, too.