The other day I posted this image on my FB page, I got 13 likes and four shares. Also, nine positive commets, but this one negative comment:
Hmmmm… how human is Hamas when they killed and raped children in front of their parents, beheaded babies in front of their parents. Beheaded and Killed parents in front of their kids….. They are acting like savages! I stand with Israel! ❤️you are sick!!!🤮
The Russian invaders in Ukraine seem to be using very similar tactics - mass rape as a weapon of war, with accompanying murder of anyone who objects. Perhaps not murder of babies in quite the same way, but there are far more similarities than differences.
So I think it would be constructive for people to examine the way that they respond to Hamas and compare to the way that they respond to the Russian forces.
I think the Russian invaders have more in common with the IDF - indiscriminate killing, yes, but in the service of nationalist ideology that turns their far weaker neighbour into an existential threat, while denying any legitimacy to the national identity of that neighbour.
Yes, I tend to compare Russia with Israel, particularly the attempt to subsume neighbours. Of course, for western governments Russia is "bad" while Israel is "good".
So I think it would be constructive for people to examine the way that they respond to Hamas and compare to the way that they respond to the Russian forces.
In my eyes the metaphor works is imperfect because Ukraine is not governed by homicidal assholes* and Hamas is, but Ukraine is Palestine. Russia wants territory from those who occupy it, like Israel. Russia is willing to kill whoever gets in the way and is mostly killing innocents, as Israel is. (To be clear I will agree that members of who are killing people are not innocents.)
*Mind, Israel was literally smuggling Hamas cash relatively recently, which certainly helped them stay in power. So it's Israel's fault Hamas was in power too.
@Gramps49 : Another wrinkle is that a lot of those claims about horrific violence against children have been walked back shortly after they were made.
And...with the disgusting ironies, I've heard Jewish folks gripe for years (deservedly) about how Christians would spread rumors that they abused Christian babies in horrible ways, and how this bonkers accusation was only used to stoking hatred into directed violence. "They're monsters! Kill them all!" Conservatives do it too, spreading rumors that liberals and queers are complicit in child trafficking ring.
There's something about using "sexual abuse of children" as a line to get the hate flowing, which means that broad accusations directed at entire groups of people need to be taken with a grain of salt.
On one hand, there are monsters in every demographic, but they don't usually represent the majority of any demographic.
It's one thing that - even knowing people who are earnestly invested in it - I'm finding it increasingly hard to have sympathy with Zionism.
It's one thing that - even knowing people who are earnestly invested in it - I'm finding it increasingly hard to have sympathy with Zionism.
I ceased to have much sympathy with Zionism around about the Second Intifada.
I'm younger, and, while I hate the movement, I understand the feeling that they have their back to the wall and are surrounded by hostility.
The problem is, geopolitically, that hostility is perfectly understandable, just like it's perfectly understandable that people running away from The Holocaust would seize onto what looked like an opportunity for genuine independence. Just don't mind the people who got displaced.
The whole situation feels like a trap that one generation set for their children, who are now basically stuck in it. I hate the way that fear is in this situation a fairly reasonable thing to carry around. The irony that I've had people tell me, no joke, that having Israel exist as a Jewish nation state makes them feel safer is really something. I wouldn't feel safe there.
I think the Russian invaders have more in common with the IDF - indiscriminate killing, yes, but in the service of nationalist ideology that turns their far weaker neighbour into an existential threat, while denying any legitimacy to the national identity of that neighbour.
I'm not aware of the use of indisciminate rape as a terror weapon by the IDF.
I think the Russian invaders have more in common with the IDF - indiscriminate killing, yes, but in the service of nationalist ideology that turns their far weaker neighbour into an existential threat, while denying any legitimacy to the national identity of that neighbour.
I'm not aware of the use of indisciminate rape as a terror weapon by the IDF.
Historically it has been, certainly by their predecessor groups and proxies. Indeed some of the unverified allegations made against Hamas bore a remarkable resemblance to acts commited against Palestinian women in Lebanon.
I note also, that Hamas didn’t attack alone but alongside some other groups - but they never seem to be mentioned anymore. (Apparently some of the hostages are being held by them, not Hamas, too.)
It's come out that the IDF have killed three hostages because one soldier shouted "terrorist" and they gunned them down. You have to wonder how many young Palestinians have been murdered in the same circumstances and just assumed to be Hamas members.
Quite. And the only reason we know about this hair-trigger cockup is because they were hostages. As @Arethosemyfeet says, it seems certain that many Palestinians have been similarly mistaken for combatants and gunned down.
I note the IDF has said the soldiers broke their own rules of engagement, but they do not intend to take any punitive action. Which rather prompts the question, what war crime would you have to commit as an IDF soldier for the state of Israel to consider you should be punished ? It is being called an accident, but it wasn’t - in the sense no one discharged their weapon by accident. They presumably know their own rules of engagement - if you can’t surrender by walking out unarmed waving a white flag - what is considered a surrender ?
"Friendly Fire" issues and similar battlefield cock-ups are not uncommon, even on battlegrounds that aren't full of civilians. When the enemy you're fighting is dressed the same as civilians, and you're fighting in an urban area full of a bunch of people who would like to be non-combatants, some number of incidents like this seem inevitable.
Half naked people waving a white flag, are generally not trying to shoot you.
No indeed. But given that shooting people wearing your own uniforms, tanks of your own design and things is a thing that happens more often than you might think it should, I don't find this particular cock-up very surprising.
Half naked people waving a white flag, are generally not trying to shoot you.
No indeed. But given that shooting people wearing your own uniforms, tanks of your own design and things is a thing that happens more often than you might think it should, I don't find this particular cock-up very surprising.
I don't think anyone is surprised by the IDF shooting dead unarmed civilians for no reason. As with US cops it's not surprise that they're doing it's anger that they're still fucking getting away with it.
A sad note to add. We like to buy various things from Ten Thousand Villages, but just had a message telling us that their olive oil and herb mixes from Palestine will not be available for the foreseeable future. Conflict and climate change are the reasons. This is a small nuisance for us, thousands of miles away, but a disaster for those who who depend on these things for their livelihood, and for those who depend on them for everyday nourishment. It didn't have to be like this.
There's usually a stall at our local Fairtrade Christmas Fair that sells Zaytoun olive oil and other products, including purses in Palestinian traditional cross stitch designs. I was hoping to get some stuff from them for Christmas presents, but they hadn't been able to get any new stock, unsurprisingly.
I was downtown for Christkindlmarkt and picked up a little cross for my mom, noticed the proprietor speaking Arabic into a phone and wondered if he was from Palestine.
I note the IDF has said the soldiers broke their own rules of engagement, but they do not intend to take any punitive action. Which rather prompts the question, what war crime would you have to commit as an IDF soldier for the state of Israel to consider you should be punished ?
It also prompts the question of whether, in the absence of any real effort at enforcement, they're better referred to as "suggestions of engagement"?
I note the IDF has said the soldiers broke their own rules of engagement, but they do not intend to take any punitive action. Which rather prompts the question, what war crime would you have to commit as an IDF soldier for the state of Israel to consider you should be punished ?
It also prompts the question of whether, in the absence of any real effort at enforcement, they're better referred to as "suggestions of engagement"?
Not even that. They're simply a fig leaf to provide deniability.
It is also astonishingly improbable that the one solitary occasion soldiers broke their own rules of engagement was when faced with the hostages they were supposed to be rescuing. It is far more likely it’s happening repeatedly, but has only been reported because the hostages were shot.
It is also astonishingly improbable that the one solitary occasion soldiers broke their own rules of engagement was when faced with the hostages they were supposed to be rescuing. It is far more likely it’s happening repeatedly, but has only been reported because the hostages were shot.
In the sense that the sun rising tomorrow is more likely than it exploding in a supernova.
Thanks @chrisstiles, I'd been waiting for some confirmation of widely voiced suspicions.
In other news, South African religious leaders are part of a global delegation that will spend Christmas in Bethlehem in solidarity with Palestinian Christians from the conflict-ridden region. They will also spend time in Jerusalem and meet released Palestinian prisoners as well as families of Israeli hostages.
Those included, for those Shipmates who know the South African churches, Reverend Frank Chikane; General Secretary of the Council of African Independent Churches Archbishop Thami Ngcana; Michael Weeder, Dean of St George’s Anglican Cathedral in Cape Town; Ds Riaan de Villiers, a Dominee of the Dutch Reformed Church; and Reverend Rene August, an Anglican priest. International clerics include Reverend Dr Chris Ferguson, pastor of the United Church of Canada (UCC); Reverend Susan Wilder, Presbyterian Church; and Reverend David Wildman, Methodist Church, who are both from the United States.
There are tug tunnels under our local hospital, it is where they process and resterilise surgical instruments, store supplies and keep their IT office. They are known as tug tunnels because small tugs (4 wheel milk float like things), move heavy stuff about but you could call it a basement with corridors. I am not aware of Hamas being active in this UK city.
There are tug tunnels under our local hospital, it is where they process and resterilise surgical instruments, store supplies and keep their IT office. They are known as tug tunnels because small tugs (4 wheel milk float like things), move heavy stuff about but you could call it a basement with corridors. I am not aware of Hamas being active in this UK city.
It is incredible that this still has to be explained to people. Anyone who has ever worked in a large hospital knows that the basement is a labyrinth of service tunnels and storage locations for equipment and supplies. Certainly, it might be possible for them to be used for nefarious purposes, but they are always there - the hospital cannot function without them. You don't have to be a very bright or energetic reporter to find this out and call the attackers on it.
There are tug tunnels under our local hospital, it is where they process and resterilise surgical instruments, store supplies and keep their IT office. They are known as tug tunnels because small tugs (4 wheel milk float like things), move heavy stuff about but you could call it a basement with corridors. I am not aware of Hamas being active in this UK city.
It is incredible that this still has to be explained to people. Anyone who has ever worked in a large hospital knows that the basement is a labyrinth of service tunnels and storage locations for equipment and supplies. Certainly, it might be possible for them to be used for nefarious purposes, but they are always there - the hospital cannot function without them. You don't have to be a very bright or energetic reporter to find this out and call the attackers on it.
A number of reporters did call this out; however most of Western media ran with the messages put out by the Israeli government and the IDF - at some level this was a policy choice.
He was the author of the earlier Jewish Currents piece linked earlier in the thread. He covers the article itself, criticisms of it and talks briefly at the end (last 15 minutes) about the use of the term "settler colonialism", the Holocaust and earlier episodes of colonial genocide. The interview starts about 4 minutes in.
South Africa has made an urgent case against Israel at the UN’s international court of justice (ICJ) accusing the state of committing genocide in its military campaign in Gaza. It has asked the ICJ to convene within the next week to issue measures demanding an immediate ceasefire.
One reason I'm including these South African responses to what is happening in Israel and Gaza is because South Africa stands in a unique position as regards the treatment of Palestinians within Israel, given the analogies often drawn between apartheid South Africa and Israel. The strongest outcry here in the Cape has come from the Muslim community who have long held pro-Palestinian views. During apartheid, many Cape Muslims would wear the white fezzes and Palestinian scarves worn by Islamic militants engaged in jihad and the resistance movement Qibla was modelled on Palestinian activist groups as well as Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood and Pakistan’s Jamaat-e-Islami and Qibla formed strong alliances with the armed wing of the African National Congress, now the government in power.
I doubt the UN will respond with any urgency or that any declaration on genocide would stop the IDF, but the the 84-page application sent to the ICJ is harrowing reading and very clear on why the attacks on Gaza are classifiable as genocide: “the attacks are genocidal in character because they are intended to bring about the destruction of a substantial part of the Palestinian national, racial and ethnical group. ” This is not a war on Hamas, it is the destruction of a besieged population.
The document cites the dehumanising intent behind the attacks (similar to the refusal of the apartheid state to grant citizenship rights to Black South Africans) and the long history of ethnic and racial hatred, citing Israeli President Herzog who said there are ‘no innocents’ in Gaza, as well as the defence minister who said Israel will impose collective punishment on the people of Gaza because they are ‘human animals’.
South Africa has made an urgent case against Israel at the UN’s international court of justice (ICJ) accusing the state of committing genocide in its military campaign in Gaza. It has asked the ICJ to convene within the next week to issue measures demanding an immediate ceasefire.
From what Segal says in the interview I understand that these kinds of steps are more or less mandated for signatories to the Convention on Genocide, given the obligation that states take measures to investigate and prevent genocide should they suspect it to be taking place.
@chrisstiles reading/listening to Segal while thinking about the ICJ (previous cases involved Myanmar and Ukraine) has been thought-provoking. I was also thinking about Segal's closing comments on 'settler colonialism' and the long pre-apartheid history of British, French and Dutch colonialism in South Africa as well as the German colonial genocide of the Nama and Herero people in 1918 in what is now Namibia. Settler colonialism by its very nature involves ethnic cleansing in order to create space for settlers.
@Gramps49 I haven't posted a link before because the only link available from the ICJ is a pdf and I know pdfs someimes involve extra work for Hosts who have to check all links on the Ship.
Here is a direct link to the South African application (84 pages) as a pdf.
The ICJ is a United Nations civil court that adjudicates disputes between countries. It is distinct from the International Criminal Court (ICC), which prosecutes individuals for war crimes.
As members of the UN, both South Africa and Israel are bound by the court.
@Gramps49 I haven't posted a link before because the only link available from the ICJ is a pdf and I know pdfs someimes involve extra work for Hosts who have to check all links on the Ship.
Here is a direct link to the South African application (84 pages) as a pdf.
The ICJ is a United Nations civil court that adjudicates disputes between countries. It is distinct from the International Criminal Court (ICC), which prosecutes individuals for war crimes.
As members of the UN, both South Africa and Israel are bound by the court.
Thank you for the links. Interesting read. Seems like they have updated the petition with current casualty figures.
The first International Court of Justice (ICJ) hearing against Israel has been scheduled for next week after South Africa filed an application instituting proceedings against Israel before the ICJ concerning the Genocide Convention.
They're bound to be contemplating putting settlers into Gaza. I guess they may be constrained by possible Western reaction, and reaction from Iran and militant groups. Then again, they seem to have impunity at the moment.
Comments
This is the impression I get. No particular desire to kill people, but not that bothered if they do as long as their actual aims are furthered.
The Russian invaders in Ukraine seem to be using very similar tactics - mass rape as a weapon of war, with accompanying murder of anyone who objects. Perhaps not murder of babies in quite the same way, but there are far more similarities than differences.
So I think it would be constructive for people to examine the way that they respond to Hamas and compare to the way that they respond to the Russian forces.
In my eyes the metaphor works is imperfect because Ukraine is not governed by homicidal assholes* and Hamas is, but Ukraine is Palestine. Russia wants territory from those who occupy it, like Israel. Russia is willing to kill whoever gets in the way and is mostly killing innocents, as Israel is. (To be clear I will agree that members of who are killing people are not innocents.)
*Mind, Israel was literally smuggling Hamas cash relatively recently, which certainly helped them stay in power. So it's Israel's fault Hamas was in power too.
And...with the disgusting ironies, I've heard Jewish folks gripe for years (deservedly) about how Christians would spread rumors that they abused Christian babies in horrible ways, and how this bonkers accusation was only used to stoking hatred into directed violence. "They're monsters! Kill them all!" Conservatives do it too, spreading rumors that liberals and queers are complicit in child trafficking ring.
There's something about using "sexual abuse of children" as a line to get the hate flowing, which means that broad accusations directed at entire groups of people need to be taken with a grain of salt.
On one hand, there are monsters in every demographic, but they don't usually represent the majority of any demographic.
It's one thing that - even knowing people who are earnestly invested in it - I'm finding it increasingly hard to have sympathy with Zionism.
I ceased to have much sympathy with Zionism around about the Second Intifada.
I'm younger, and, while I hate the movement, I understand the feeling that they have their back to the wall and are surrounded by hostility.
The problem is, geopolitically, that hostility is perfectly understandable, just like it's perfectly understandable that people running away from The Holocaust would seize onto what looked like an opportunity for genuine independence. Just don't mind the people who got displaced.
The whole situation feels like a trap that one generation set for their children, who are now basically stuck in it. I hate the way that fear is in this situation a fairly reasonable thing to carry around. The irony that I've had people tell me, no joke, that having Israel exist as a Jewish nation state makes them feel safer is really something. I wouldn't feel safe there.
I'm not aware of the use of indisciminate rape as a terror weapon by the IDF.
Historically it has been, certainly by their predecessor groups and proxies. Indeed some of the unverified allegations made against Hamas bore a remarkable resemblance to acts commited against Palestinian women in Lebanon.
It reminds me somewhat of this case, where many people did not want the soldier punished. But if that is not a war crime what is ?
(Ultimately Sgt Blackman’s conviction for murder was overturned and he was convicted of manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility.)
No indeed. But given that shooting people wearing your own uniforms, tanks of your own design and things is a thing that happens more often than you might think it should, I don't find this particular cock-up very surprising.
That does not lessen the "revolting."
I don't think anyone is surprised by the IDF shooting dead unarmed civilians for no reason. As with US cops it's not surprise that they're doing it's anger that they're still fucking getting away with it.
The e-mail referred to this article: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/30/no-work-and-no-olives-harvest-rots-as-west-bank-farmers-cut-off-from-trees
It also prompts the question of whether, in the absence of any real effort at enforcement, they're better referred to as "suggestions of engagement"?
Not even that. They're simply a fig leaf to provide deniability.
In the sense that the sun rising tomorrow is more likely than it exploding in a supernova.
Additionally, an nytimes investigation has found evidence of the IDF bombing areas that they had designated as 'safe': https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1738347980032295218
Both these things had been covered in Arab outlets previously - including Palestinian ones.
Thanks @chrisstiles, I'd been waiting for some confirmation of widely voiced suspicions.
In other news, South African religious leaders are part of a global delegation that will spend Christmas in Bethlehem in solidarity with Palestinian Christians from the conflict-ridden region. They will also spend time in Jerusalem and meet released Palestinian prisoners as well as families of Israeli hostages.
Those included, for those Shipmates who know the South African churches, Reverend Frank Chikane; General Secretary of the Council of African Independent Churches Archbishop Thami Ngcana; Michael Weeder, Dean of St George’s Anglican Cathedral in Cape Town; Ds Riaan de Villiers, a Dominee of the Dutch Reformed Church; and Reverend Rene August, an Anglican priest. International clerics include Reverend Dr Chris Ferguson, pastor of the United Church of Canada (UCC); Reverend Susan Wilder, Presbyterian Church; and Reverend David Wildman, Methodist Church, who are both from the United States.
Then you have this kind of thing.
It is incredible that this still has to be explained to people. Anyone who has ever worked in a large hospital knows that the basement is a labyrinth of service tunnels and storage locations for equipment and supplies. Certainly, it might be possible for them to be used for nefarious purposes, but they are always there - the hospital cannot function without them. You don't have to be a very bright or energetic reporter to find this out and call the attackers on it.
A number of reporters did call this out; however most of Western media ran with the messages put out by the Israeli government and the IDF - at some level this was a policy choice.
https://parallaxviews.podbean.com/e/rsegal/
He was the author of the earlier Jewish Currents piece linked earlier in the thread. He covers the article itself, criticisms of it and talks briefly at the end (last 15 minutes) about the use of the term "settler colonialism", the Holocaust and earlier episodes of colonial genocide. The interview starts about 4 minutes in.
South Africa has made an urgent case against Israel at the UN’s international court of justice (ICJ) accusing the state of committing genocide in its military campaign in Gaza. It has asked the ICJ to convene within the next week to issue measures demanding an immediate ceasefire.
One reason I'm including these South African responses to what is happening in Israel and Gaza is because South Africa stands in a unique position as regards the treatment of Palestinians within Israel, given the analogies often drawn between apartheid South Africa and Israel. The strongest outcry here in the Cape has come from the Muslim community who have long held pro-Palestinian views. During apartheid, many Cape Muslims would wear the white fezzes and Palestinian scarves worn by Islamic militants engaged in jihad and the resistance movement Qibla was modelled on Palestinian activist groups as well as Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood and Pakistan’s Jamaat-e-Islami and Qibla formed strong alliances with the armed wing of the African National Congress, now the government in power.
I doubt the UN will respond with any urgency or that any declaration on genocide would stop the IDF, but the the 84-page application sent to the ICJ is harrowing reading and very clear on why the attacks on Gaza are classifiable as genocide: “the attacks are genocidal in character because they are intended to bring about the destruction of a substantial part of the Palestinian national, racial and ethnical group. ” This is not a war on Hamas, it is the destruction of a besieged population.
The document cites the dehumanising intent behind the attacks (similar to the refusal of the apartheid state to grant citizenship rights to Black South Africans) and the long history of ethnic and racial hatred, citing Israeli President Herzog who said there are ‘no innocents’ in Gaza, as well as the defence minister who said Israel will impose collective punishment on the people of Gaza because they are ‘human animals’.
From what Segal says in the interview I understand that these kinds of steps are more or less mandated for signatories to the Convention on Genocide, given the obligation that states take measures to investigate and prevent genocide should they suspect it to be taking place.
Please provide a link to the South Africa petition to the International Court of Justice.
Oh, and, is Israel a signatory to the ICJ?
Thanks.
Here is a direct link to the South African application (84 pages) as a pdf.
Here is the ICJ site and the press release.
https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192
The ICJ is a United Nations civil court that adjudicates disputes between countries. It is distinct from the International Criminal Court (ICC), which prosecutes individuals for war crimes.
As members of the UN, both South Africa and Israel are bound by the court.
Thank you for the links. Interesting read. Seems like they have updated the petition with current casualty figures.
https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240103-us-condemns-far-right-israeli-ministers-call-for-palestinians-to-emigrate-from-gaza
And The Times of Israel reports that Israeli government officials are in talks with various African states on taking Gazan inhabitants:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israeli-officials-said-in-talks-with-congo-others-on-taking-in-gaza-emigrants/
Have they asked Madagascar?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan
Not that that justifies Israel's conduct of the war.
(*) Not officially recognised as such by Israel but in part supported by the Israeli government.