I don't think anyone is saying that faith and church attendance are synonymous.
But it is a communal expression of faith. As we have been mentioning and a chance for those who don’t believe to see communal faith in action. Not that is the reason they do Food Bank etc, it is a consequence.
As to the mystery. Well God in many ways is a mystery. Our faith must have that in it.
I have communal faith that people are worth it. Nothing to do with religion.
What mystery? There are infinite real ones of of course. But God isn't one of them. He's a synthetic mystery from irreconcilable arbitrary religious propositions.
And yet what evidence do you have that God is synthetic? You can believe that and are free to do so, I will not deny that. That said what actual evidence do you have to back up your view on a discussion board such as this. In a sub board such as Purgatory. We can neither prove it disprove outright. God will always be a mystery to us because we cannot fully comprehend him.
Welcome back Martin54! I note your belief, "people are worth it". Says it all ....
But I bet you don't know why you believe this.... rationality (whatever that is) doesn't come in to it. '
Blesssings to all in this debate.
: ) thank you very much @RockyRoger. I know that I believe it because I'm a eusocial intentional monkey, a product of four billion years of evolving complexity. It suits me, it pleases me, for entirely self-interested reasons from my genes on up, like rat empathy behind courage and kindness. And the rational outcome at the species level will be rational - fair - social justice - fairness.
What do you know why I believe this?
And bless you and all here too.
What reconstruction, then, is needed. Don't you already have it?
@MaryLouise, thank you for that. Reading, watching, and listening to Christopher Hitches has helped put language to a lot of my thoughts and feelings, as well as open up other pathways for me to explore. Admittedly, for a while I was quite taken with the work of “The New Atheists” Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris & Dennett. I hope I’ve settled down a good bit, now, but their work has been galvanizing, and really reinvigorated my thought life. The deconstruction of one’s faith life can be a difficult, lonely journey, and having voices like theirs in one’s head can help a lot.
In reconstruction I take it? How so?
No, in deconstruction. Their work brought a sense of re-order to the chaotic aspects of a major pillar in one's life crumbling to the ground. They provided basic confirmations, and offered a structure and sequence for the arguments against apologetics, and for reapproaching a variety of ideas without the lens of religion.
Ah, I saw the deconstruction, which is all I have. I saw the mirage of reconstruction in the ambiguity of my understanding. So, like me, you have no reconstruction? Apart from a humanist, Rogerian one?
@Martin54 -- I'd say, at the risk of another loaded term, I'm in the middle of a revelation, in the same way a sculpter renders a finished product. Just very gently chiseling away the unnecessary material of religion. Unlike a sculpter, though, I can't say what this thing is going to look like in the end.
I believe in the minimum it is justified to do so beyond science and rationality. Namely, on the trajectory of Jesus, that we're all worth it. Kindness.
Welcome back Martin54! I note your belief, "people are worth it". Says it all ....
But I bet you don't know why you believe this.... rationality (whatever that is) doesn't come in to it. '
Blesssings to all in this debate.
: ) thank you very much @RockyRoger. I know that I believe it because I'm a eusocial intentional monkey, a product of four billion years of evolving complexity. It suits me, it pleases me, for entirely self-interested reasons from my genes on up, like rat empathy behind courage and kindness. And the rational outcome at the species level will be rational - fair - social justice - fairness.
What do you know why I believe this?
And bless you and all here too.
What reconstruction, then, is needed. Don't you already have it?
Not well enough. By its fruits.
Wondering further.....
Reconstruction sounds like picking through the rubble and reclaiming, perhaps altering, what is still of value, then building that back into your life. Have I understood (close to) rightly? (If not, just say, "No," and you can spare yourself the rest of my post.)
I'll assume I'm right enough to carry on here.
I think that Being Kind, if we value it, is a skill any of us continues to learn to understand (verstehenlernen) and practice practicing the rest of our lives. This really isn't something that can be deconstructed or reconstructed but is, rather, part of development; wisdom. Or did you actually deconstruct Being Kind?
On the other hand, you mention yearning and meaning sometimes. Is it yearning for meaning? I think you've said as much? Is meaning really the thing that needs reconstructing?
Verrrrrry good @Kendel. Close. Very. Losing my religion (love R.E.M.!) has allowed me to see what is important and that has become more important. It's all there is in the landscape after all. And yes, it is about making that meaningful. Kindness. Grace. Chesed. To all here! (The specific meaning of chesed). And myself. And everyone else.
My helpless failure, inadequacy, is deeply exposed here. And it's not my fault. I'm not to blame. There. Kindness to self...
none of which contain the absurd leap of faith as far as I'm myopically seeing. Can you? All of which, surprise, surprise, at best deconstructively, liberally, best case, assume the divine. Which, of course, is fair enough on a mediocre Christian website. But I'd like to see the admission that at most it's not intellectually justified in the slightest. What would Plato's sock puppet Socrates have said twenty four hundred, two thousand four hundred, years ago eh? About such untrue opinion? Let alone Kierkegaard.
There is even a refrain of the feeble attempts by Protestant apologists to see an instance of the fingerpost in the texts when there is none; counting 'witnesses'.
And how do I know if I don't believe? How do I believe that I know? OK, OK. Trying to make the OP work, this reminds me of my cultic days, as I recently noted. Not quite the same, but in the same ball park I suggest. I suspect it's driven by the threats throughout the NT that if you don't believe, you're damned. So it is analogous to my crisis of faith on Radford Bottom Lock nearly 50 years ago. I believed, I believed, I believed, I did. But did I have faith? I didn't feel as if I had the substance of things hoped for. I felt empty of all but fear. Because I believed that I was an unworthy receptacle for faith.
Verrrrrry good @Kendel. Close. Very. Losing my religion (love R.E.M.!) has allowed me to see what is important and that has become more important. It's all there is in the landscape after all. And yes, it is about making that meaningful. Kindness. Grace. Chesed. To all here! (The specific meaning of chesed). And myself. And everyone else.
My helpless failure, inadequacy, is deeply exposed here. And it's not my fault. I'm not to blame. There. Kindness to self...
none of which contain the absurd leap of faith as far as I'm myopically seeing. Can you? All of which, surprise, surprise, at best deconstructively, liberally, best case, assume the divine. Which, of course, is fair enough on a mediocre Christian website. But I'd like to see the admission that at most it's not intellectually justified in the slightest. What would Plato's sock puppet Socrates have said twenty four hundred, two thousand four hundred, years ago eh? About such untrue opinion? Let alone Kierkegaard.
There is even a refrain of the feeble attempts by Protestant apologists to see an instance of the fingerpost in the texts when there is none; counting 'witnesses'.
Not very kind is it : )
@Martin54, It's striking that "losing your religion" was one of the prices of this wisdom -- plus the excrutiating pain that went with the process -- scales falling away over years. By your description, though, the loss seems like a relief attained through torture.
As a parent of a teen and a young adult, the thing I currently find hardest to handle, is cringingly watching them say and do things I had once said and done. "Don't go there! You ought to know better!" But of course they can't. They haven't gone there yet. And where they go is not always the same as where I went. My being niggled will not help. Yours won't either.
Kierkegaard's leap will not help you in the way I think you have in mind here. It was not in regard to belief in God. That was rock bottom true for him, which I understand was the case for Plato as well. Kierkegaard's leap was the exercise of that faith. Such faith has been expressed in some of those threads you listed, if I remember rightly, and without attempt at intellectual apology.
Verrrrrry good @Kendel. Close. Very. Losing my religion (love R.E.M.!) has allowed me to see what is important and that has become more important. It's all there is in the landscape after all. And yes, it is about making that meaningful. Kindness. Grace. Chesed. To all here! (The specific meaning of chesed). And myself. And everyone else.
My helpless failure, inadequacy, is deeply exposed here. And it's not my fault. I'm not to blame. There. Kindness to self...
none of which contain the absurd leap of faith as far as I'm myopically seeing. Can you? All of which, surprise, surprise, at best deconstructively, liberally, best case, assume the divine. Which, of course, is fair enough on a mediocre Christian website. But I'd like to see the admission that at most it's not intellectually justified in the slightest. What would Plato's sock puppet Socrates have said twenty four hundred, two thousand four hundred, years ago eh? About such untrue opinion? Let alone Kierkegaard.
There is even a refrain of the feeble attempts by Protestant apologists to see an instance of the fingerpost in the texts when there is none; counting 'witnesses'.
Not very kind is it : )
@Martin54, It's striking that "losing your religion" was one of the prices of this wisdom -- plus the excrutiating pain that went with the process -- scales falling away over years. By your description, though, the loss seems like a relief attained through torture.
As a parent of a teen and a young adult, the thing I currently find hardest to handle, is cringingly watching them say and do things I had once said and done. "Don't go there! You ought to know better!" But of course they can't. They haven't gone there yet. And where they go is not always the same as where I went. My being niggled will not help. Yours won't either.
Kierkegaard's leap will not help you in the way I think you have in mind here. It was not in regard to belief in God. That was rock bottom true for him, which I understand was the case for Plato as well. Kierkegaard's leap was the exercise of that faith. Such faith has been expressed in some of those threads you listed, if I remember rightly, and without attempt at intellectual apology.
Whoooo! I sit at your feet teacher lady. My Dad could be an absolute bastard and then some, but I still miss him. I still love him. I haven't 'outgrown' him. I understand him more than ever and still want the conversation.
Your second para is... !!! *
And your third is devastating, a plaster ripped off a hairy arm. My ignorance runneth over. That K. was in the company of P. & S. in unexaminable faith. And merely concerned about what to do about it, as was I, at Radford Bottom Lock. What exalted company I keep. And despair of. So what was K's meaningless absurdity of existence in God about? He didn't know that all it was about, in God or no, is kindness?
* You can't have the conversation at that end of the spectrum either! And aye, those threads only have the unexaminable assumption of unexaminable God.
The most basic of societies have some kid of belief. The God of the river, the God of the hunt. At our most basic we believe in something bigger. That could easily be an indicator of their being something bigger. Is there something in our basic make up that indicates some kind of deity? Cold logic cannot explain everything. Feelings are important. We talk about having a hunch. We are aware when someone has a surprise for us sometimes
Our sense of the numinous is of our selves, of existence. We're in the Galerie des Glaces in our walls of bone where we turn ourselves inside out and project on unknowable reality. It is nothing more than that. There is nothing in that that indicates some kind of deity beyond our solipsist infancy. Cold logic explains that. The rest is fallacy.
@Martin54, I have only encountered "the absurd" in Fear and Trembling so far. In it the narrator (whom I described a few posts above), describes the exercise of faith "from the outside." It has no rational explanation. Here is a fairly typical example from the book:
I have looked what is frightful in the eye, and I don’t flee from it in terror, but I know very well that although I confront it courageously, my courage is not, after all, the courage of faith and is nothing in comparison to it. I cannot make the movement of faith, I cannot shut my eyes and hurl myself confidently into the absurd; that is an impossibility for me, but I do not congratulate myself on that account. I am convinced that God is love. This thought has a primal, lyrical validity for me. When it is present to me, I am unspeakably blessed; when it is absent, I yearn for it more earnestly than the lover yearns for the object of his love. But I do not have faith—this courage I lack.
Fear and Trembling (Trans. Bruce Kirmmse) Bookshare edition, 18%.
From my Kindergarten-level study so far, it seems that Kierkegaard spent most of his life examining his faith, but not in a way that concluded as you have.
I cannot tell you to what degree and in what manner he was kind and by what way he came about it. The material is all there, even his diaries.
Hmmm. Just been doing some accounts for work. I have a difference. I'll find it. But I won't find K's from mine. The currencies are different and I have no idea of the rate.
So, K. was examining what he he had downstream of his unexaminable assumption of God? What was it? It seems analogous to my Radford Bottom Lock problem. And just as meaningless. What was K's absurd leap of faith beyond faith? Eudaimonism in the sense of how then should we live? In the light of God, what should we do? What should we leap into?
He never concluded it was kindness? He couldn't engage with the pursuit of social justice and was a social conservative. Looks pretty Calvinist to me.
Our sense of the numinous is of our selves, of existence. We're in the Galerie des Glaces in our walls of bone where we turn ourselves inside out and project on unknowable reality. It is nothing more than that. There is nothing in that that indicates some kind of deity beyond our solipsist infancy. Cold logic explains that. The rest is fallacy.
Again you say something but have no real argument. The possibility is there for there to be something beyond our logic. Believing because we feel it is right is a reason to believe. Our logic cannot explain all things. We can’t even be sure that the scientific research on our origins has not taken a wrong path somewhere. I am not talking about science verses Genesis One. By its very nature we have no real first hand evidence. We could have gone wrong somewhere. Logic is not always the answer.
Our sense of the numinous is of our selves, of existence. We're in the Galerie des Glaces in our walls of bone where we turn ourselves inside out and project on unknowable reality. It is nothing more than that. There is nothing in that that indicates some kind of deity beyond our solipsist infancy. Cold logic explains that. The rest is fallacy.
Again you say something but have no real argument. The possibility is there for there to be something beyond our logic. Believing because we feel it is right is a reason to believe. Our logic cannot explain all things. We can’t even be sure that the scientific research on our origins has not taken a wrong path somewhere. I am not talking about science verses Genesis One. By its very nature we have no real first hand evidence. We could have gone wrong somewhere. Logic is not always the answer.
By what definition of argument? I.e. of logic? The basis of science, rationality, philosophy. I'm certain that there is an infinity of real data that our minds will never encompass. How infinite nature grounds itself, how M-branes colliding in 11-D make universes. And there is another infinity of the unreal, including God, Cthulhu, the collective unconscious, Gaia, the noosphere which we can happily encompass in our ignorant imaginings. Believing because we feel it is right, is a reason in the sense of an explanation. But reason has nothing to do with it. History is full of believed evil as right to this moment.
Where could the scientific research on our origins taken a wrong path somewhere? We don't need first hand evidence. Logic is always the answer.
Clarify Kierkegaard's concept of "leap" and "absurd"
Clarify Kierkegaard's assumption of the existence of God
Indicate further resources for understanding Kierkegaard's faith, his practical exercise of it, self-examination, ethics, kindness, personal goals and thought life.
Additional Resources for Continuing Research: Primary Sources
Kierkegaard's Journals and Notebooks; This is part of the ebook edition of these. More compact. Print is 12 volumes. I like Kirmmse's translation work of other books. These should be an engaging read.
The Essential Kierkegaard, I is my understanding that this is the most extensive single-volume anthology of his work. I found the selection from Fear and Trembling inadequate for my interests, but it provides a good overview of the man's work.
Kierkegaard and Christian Faith
I have not read this book but am familiar with authors of a few of the chapters. This sounds like it might focus nicely on a number of your areas of enquiry.
@Martin54 Please let me know, if there is any other information I can help you locate.
How do you know if you believe in God or Christian teaching, or any other doctrine or ideology...
[....]
There's a lot in the OP, in this thread and on my mind. Staying with what I quoted:
By looking backward, or comparing my past and my present. The same way I realized I'm a feminist. Denominationally, I'm not supposed to be one. In thought and practice, though, I am. I've given up trying to make it work for other people. I am what I am. I've become this over time and thought and life. My husband has always been one without recognizing it, too, I think. He has unconsciously supported my realization. We've corrupted our children as well.
Looking backward and forward again to the present, I know I am a Christian, too. But a different one than I was 50, 40, 30, or 5 years ago. When Dad died, hell became unimaginable. Denominationally, that's beyond the pale. Got no verses to support my concern here, but.... I know I can't imagine it, even with help from Hieronymus Bosch. Change continues.
I know fear, even terror, over their faith tortures many people, which seems to be the inspiration of the OP, and I read such descriptions, and @Martin54 's crisis of faith on Radford Bottom Lock, with grief for what they have been through.
That has not been my experience (and has nothing to do with a feeling of deserving or not deserving).
I don't think anyone is saying that faith and church attendance are synonymous.
But it is a communal expression of faith. As we have been mentioning and a chance for those who don’t believe to see communal faith in action. Not that is the reason they do Food Bank etc, it is a consequence.
As to the mystery. Well God in many ways is a mystery. Our faith must have that in it.
I have communal faith that people are worth it. Nothing to do with religion.
What mystery? There are infinite real ones of of course. But God isn't one of them. He's a synthetic mystery from irreconcilable arbitrary religious propositions.
And yet what evidence do you have that God is synthetic? You can believe that and are free to do so, I will not deny that. That said what actual evidence do you have to back up your view on a discussion board such as this. In a sub board such as Purgatory. We can neither prove it disprove outright. God will always be a mystery to us because we cannot fully comprehend him.
Missed this! We make God up. And that is no belief. It is a fact. I'm not free to 'believe' anything else. I know. Ancient Egypt, The Bible, Judaism, Christianity, Islam are synthetic. Fiction. Made up. They made themselves up. Like all religion, all cultures, all art, even science and philosophy and history. We make it all up. We make ourselves up. The Greeks made up atoms. They happened to be right. In matters of religion there is nothing there to disprove, there is no mystery but nature.
Unless you have a universal instance of the fingerpost?
I don't think anyone is saying that faith and church attendance are synonymous.
But it is a communal expression of faith. As we have been mentioning and a chance for those who don’t believe to see communal faith in action. Not that is the reason they do Food Bank etc, it is a consequence.
As to the mystery. Well God in many ways is a mystery. Our faith must have that in it.
I have communal faith that people are worth it. Nothing to do with religion.
What mystery? There are infinite real ones of of course. But God isn't one of them. He's a synthetic mystery from irreconcilable arbitrary religious propositions.
And yet what evidence do you have that God is synthetic? You can believe that and are free to do so, I will not deny that. That said what actual evidence do you have to back up your view on a discussion board such as this. In a sub board such as Purgatory. We can neither prove it disprove outright. God will always be a mystery to us because we cannot fully comprehend him.
Missed this! We make God up. And that is no belief. It is a fact. I'm not free to 'believe' anything else. I know. Ancient Egypt, The Bible, Judaism, Christianity, Islam are synthetic. Fiction. Made up. They made themselves up. Like all religion, all cultures, all art, even science and philosophy and history. We make it all up. We make ourselves up. The Greeks made up atoms. They happened to be right. In matters of religion there is nothing there to disprove, there is no mystery but nature.
Unless you have a universal instance of the fingerpost?
If everything is made up then what does the making up? If we’re made up and all of reality is made up, then what is it made up out of?
I don't feel you're interfering, G. G. It's a toughie. Over Here, Across The Pond, it feels that during my adult life, while I was shedding the corset, others in my denominational world having been replacing frayed laces and pulling tighter.
Two years ago my family and I left our church of 21 years. I've written about it somein the Church as Community thread. I'm not ready to pull up roots; I don't want to need to. And then the question of where to go from here.....
But that's all for some other thread.
I don't think anyone is saying that faith and church attendance are synonymous.
But it is a communal expression of faith. As we have been mentioning and a chance for those who don’t believe to see communal faith in action. Not that is the reason they do Food Bank etc, it is a consequence.
As to the mystery. Well God in many ways is a mystery. Our faith must have that in it.
I have communal faith that people are worth it. Nothing to do with religion.
What mystery? There are infinite real ones of of course. But God isn't one of them. He's a synthetic mystery from irreconcilable arbitrary religious propositions.
And yet what evidence do you have that God is synthetic? You can believe that and are free to do so, I will not deny that. That said what actual evidence do you have to back up your view on a discussion board such as this. In a sub board such as Purgatory. We can neither prove it disprove outright. God will always be a mystery to us because we cannot fully comprehend him.
Missed this! We make God up. And that is no belief. It is a fact. I'm not free to 'believe' anything else. I know. Ancient Egypt, The Bible, Judaism, Christianity, Islam are synthetic. Fiction. Made up. They made themselves up. Like all religion, all cultures, all art, even science and philosophy and history. We make it all up. We make ourselves up. The Greeks made up atoms. They happened to be right. In matters of religion there is nothing there to disprove, there is no mystery but nature.
Unless you have a universal instance of the fingerpost?
If everything is made up then what does the making up? If we’re made up and all of reality is made up, then what is it made up out of?
Well, thanks. I'm not sure how much material is left at which to chisel. My mind can't accommodate the supernatural anymore, so as far as things going downhill they begin to level off pretty quickly after that. Further realizations about how the sausage of religion is made don't leave much more than an empty casing. That, of course, is confounding, disappointing (even heart breaking), and infuriating as one takes stock from a completely different perspective, but bit by bit the hole that's revealed starts to refill. And it's not necessarily or completely devoid of religious-y things, but, it is a process.
Well, thanks. I'm not sure how much material is left at which to chisel. My mind can't accommodate the supernatural anymore, so as far as things going downhill they begin to level off pretty quickly after that. Further realizations about how the sausage of religion is made don't leave much more than an empty casing. That, of course, is confounding, disappointing (even heart breaking), and infuriating as one takes stock from a completely different perspective, but bit by bit the hole that's revealed starts to refill. And it's not necessarily or completely devoid of religious-y things, but, it is a process.
I'm glad. Mine is re-filling almost completely devoid of religious-y things, tho' I have sacred things. I'm still forlornly hoping for an instance of the fingerpost of course. Like Ricky Gervaise. One that would instantly convert the New Atheists. One of the nice, unexpected things that has filled the void, is that as Christianity, starting with Jesus, are entirely natural, even with no good will to Jesus as an historical figure (which I have in plenty), they make us look good.
I don't think anyone is saying that faith and church attendance are synonymous.
But it is a communal expression of faith. As we have been mentioning and a chance for those who don’t believe to see communal faith in action. Not that is the reason they do Food Bank etc, it is a consequence.
As to the mystery. Well God in many ways is a mystery. Our faith must have that in it.
I have communal faith that people are worth it. Nothing to do with religion.
What mystery? There are infinite real ones of of course. But God isn't one of them. He's a synthetic mystery from irreconcilable arbitrary religious propositions.
And yet what evidence do you have that God is synthetic? You can believe that and are free to do so, I will not deny that. That said what actual evidence do you have to back up your view on a discussion board such as this. In a sub board such as Purgatory. We can neither prove it disprove outright. God will always be a mystery to us because we cannot fully comprehend him.
Missed this! We make God up. And that is no belief. It is a fact. I'm not free to 'believe' anything else. I know. Ancient Egypt, The Bible, Judaism, Christianity, Islam are synthetic. Fiction. Made up. They made themselves up. Like all religion, all cultures, all art, even science and philosophy and history. We make it all up. We make ourselves up. The Greeks made up atoms. They happened to be right. In matters of religion there is nothing there to disprove, there is no mystery but nature.
Unless you have a universal instance of the fingerpost?
If everything is made up then what does the making up? If we’re made up and all of reality is made up, then what is it made up out of?
Well, thanks. I'm not sure how much material is left at which to chisel. My mind can't accommodate the supernatural anymore, so as far as things going downhill they begin to level off pretty quickly after that. Further realizations about how the sausage of religion is made don't leave much more than an empty casing. That, of course, is confounding, disappointing (even heart breaking), and infuriating as one takes stock from a completely different perspective, but bit by bit the hole that's revealed starts to refill. And it's not necessarily or completely devoid of religious-y things, but, it is a process.
I'm glad. Mine is re-filling almost completely devoid of religious-y things, tho' I have sacred things. I'm still forlornly hoping for an instance of the fingerpost of course. Like Ricky Gervaise. One that would instantly convert the New Atheists. One of the nice, unexpected things that has filled the void, is that as Christianity, starting with Jesus, are entirely natural, even with no good will to Jesus as an historical figure (which I have in plenty), they make us look good.
Sacred, yes! Numinous, yes! Even the Mysterious in some cases. Here's a stupid example: From time to time Mrs. The_Riv and I will be watching a movie in an otherwise still and quiet house when the clothes washer will turn on and play its little tune. I'll get up, walk toward it and say, "If you're a spirit, soul, or ghost and you're here right now, turn on the clothes dryer!" (I would absolutely looooooooovvvvvveee it if it ever happened!). Nothing. Of course, for a long time we thought the quirk was in the wiring of the appliance, but it's also happened a couple of times with our son's hair/beard trimmer in the bathroom in the back of the house -- it just turned on and sat there buzzing in its charger. I've made the same invitation re: a battery-operated toothbrush in the same space, but to no avail. Maybe one day the ectoplasm will overcome our dimension. Here's hoping.
Mostly, though, there's renewed and increased urgency for life, since I am no longer under any illusions that there's an afterlife. Really, really, really wanting as rich a remaining experience as possible.
I don't think anyone is saying that faith and church attendance are synonymous.
But it is a communal expression of faith. As we have been mentioning and a chance for those who don’t believe to see communal faith in action. Not that is the reason they do Food Bank etc, it is a consequence.
As to the mystery. Well God in many ways is a mystery. Our faith must have that in it.
I have communal faith that people are worth it. Nothing to do with religion.
What mystery? There are infinite real ones of of course. But God isn't one of them. He's a synthetic mystery from irreconcilable arbitrary religious propositions.
And yet what evidence do you have that God is synthetic? You can believe that and are free to do so, I will not deny that. That said what actual evidence do you have to back up your view on a discussion board such as this. In a sub board such as Purgatory. We can neither prove it disprove outright. God will always be a mystery to us because we cannot fully comprehend him.
Missed this! We make God up. And that is no belief. It is a fact. I'm not free to 'believe' anything else. I know. Ancient Egypt, The Bible, Judaism, Christianity, Islam are synthetic. Fiction. Made up. They made themselves up. Like all religion, all cultures, all art, even science and philosophy and history. We make it all up. We make ourselves up. The Greeks made up atoms. They happened to be right. In matters of religion there is nothing there to disprove, there is no mystery but nature.
Unless you have a universal instance of the fingerpost?
If everything is made up then what does the making up? If we’re made up and all of reality is made up, then what is it made up out of?
Do you know what you did there?
I don’t, what did I do?
All, every, human expression, thought, word, action is synthetic. No? Made up. We make it all up. No? Anything we don't? We make ourselves up, we actually have a part in our own emergence. In the chain of factorial emergence, complexity on complexity on... complexity from the ground of being. No?
That's what comes out of a man.
What goes in is sense data, second hand, third rate, from reality. No? Stirs the stuff in the bone pot. No?
The natural infinite ground of being makes all stuff up. Including this. The lab is empty and the chemicals talk. Bags of enzymes realise they are bags of enzymes.
It's all reality, but not all reality is equal. The taste of the brew fermented in our bone pots is not the taste of anything we're tasting. In itself. No?
And no superfluous outside intentional agency required.
Unless you know something I don't. You know, like a universal instance of the fingerpost?
Well, thanks. I'm not sure how much material is left at which to chisel. My mind can't accommodate the supernatural anymore, so as far as things going downhill they begin to level off pretty quickly after that. Further realizations about how the sausage of religion is made don't leave much more than an empty casing. That, of course, is confounding, disappointing (even heart breaking), and infuriating as one takes stock from a completely different perspective, but bit by bit the hole that's revealed starts to refill. And it's not necessarily or completely devoid of religious-y things, but, it is a process.
I'm glad. Mine is re-filling almost completely devoid of religious-y things, tho' I have sacred things. I'm still forlornly hoping for an instance of the fingerpost of course. Like Ricky Gervaise. One that would instantly convert the New Atheists. One of the nice, unexpected things that has filled the void, is that as Christianity, starting with Jesus, are entirely natural, even with no good will to Jesus as an historical figure (which I have in plenty), they make us look good.
Sacred, yes! Numinous, yes! Even the Mysterious in some cases. Here's a stupid example: From time to time Mrs. The_Riv and I will be watching a movie in an otherwise still and quiet house when the clothes washer will turn on and play its little tune. I'll get up, walk toward it and say, "If you're a spirit, soul, or ghost and you're here right now, turn on the clothes dryer!" (I would absolutely looooooooovvvvvveee it if it ever happened!). Nothing. Of course, for a long time we thought the quirk was in the wiring of the appliance, but it's also happened a couple of times with our son's hair/beard trimmer in the bathroom in the back of the house -- it just turned on and sat there buzzing in its charger. I've made the same invitation re: a battery-operated toothbrush in the same space, but to no avail. Maybe one day the ectoplasm will overcome our dimension. Here's hoping.
Mostly, though, there's renewed and increased urgency for life, since I am no longer under any illusions that there's an afterlife. Really, really, really wanting as rich a remaining experience as possible.
I can do stupid. I like it. But not THAT stupid! : ) I say Oh God! God in Heaven! all the time, and I'm yearning when I do it. How stupid is that?! I prefer it to Fuck! Fuck off! Usually. I'm too much the Puritan positivist to accept any miracle but one that makes Dawkins and Dennett bow the knee. And my dog not barking in the night isn't good enough.
I don't think anyone is saying that faith and church attendance are synonymous.
But it is a communal expression of faith. As we have been mentioning and a chance for those who don’t believe to see communal faith in action. Not that is the reason they do Food Bank etc, it is a consequence.
As to the mystery. Well God in many ways is a mystery. Our faith must have that in it.
I have communal faith that people are worth it. Nothing to do with religion.
What mystery? There are infinite real ones of of course. But God isn't one of them. He's a synthetic mystery from irreconcilable arbitrary religious propositions.
And yet what evidence do you have that God is synthetic? You can believe that and are free to do so, I will not deny that. That said what actual evidence do you have to back up your view on a discussion board such as this. In a sub board such as Purgatory. We can neither prove it disprove outright. God will always be a mystery to us because we cannot fully comprehend him.
Missed this! We make God up. And that is no belief. It is a fact. I'm not free to 'believe' anything else. I know. Ancient Egypt, The Bible, Judaism, Christianity, Islam are synthetic. Fiction. Made up. They made themselves up. Like all religion, all cultures, all art, even science and philosophy and history. We make it all up. We make ourselves up. The Greeks made up atoms. They happened to be right. In matters of religion there is nothing there to disprove, there is no mystery but nature.
Unless you have a universal instance of the fingerpost?
If everything is made up then what does the making up? If we’re made up and all of reality is made up, then what is it made up out of?
Do you know what you did there?
I don’t, what did I do?
All, every, human expression, thought, word, action is synthetic. No? Made up. We make it all up. No? Anything we don't? We make ourselves up, we actually have a part in our own emergence. In the chain of factorial emergence, complexity on complexity on... complexity from the ground of being. No?
That's what comes out of a man.
What goes in is sense data, second hand, third rate, from reality. No? Stirs the stuff in the bone pot. No?
The natural infinite ground of being makes all stuff up. Including this. The lab is empty and the chemicals talk. Bags of enzymes realise they are bags of enzymes.
It's all reality, but not all reality is equal. The taste of the brew fermented in our bone pots is not the taste of anything we're tasting. In itself. No?
And no superfluous outside intentional agency required.
Unless you know something I don't. You know, like a universal instance of the fingerpost?
No?
Nah. For us to "have a part in our own emergence" means that there is an "us" already there to do the emerging. So there's a kernel of "us," and then there's sense data and then there's reality that is evidently in layers. So it sounds like there are plenty of things that aren't made up. Sure, you're not a scientific realist, why would you be it's boring. All language is made up? I mean, pretty roundly argued against by all sorts of linguists, philosophers, psychologists, and cognitive scientists but yeah man why not. So we drift into constructivism with a dash of philosophical idealism for spice. But since we've already acknowledged that there are things that aren't made up, I'm not sure why we'd then suddenly go all constructivist.
Regardless, my question was what does the making up if everything is made up, your answer is that we do the making up because we make ourselves, so there's a part of us that isn't made up, and that seems like a contradiction to me.
Sacred, yes! Numinous, yes! Even the Mysterious in some cases. Here's a stupid example: From time to time Mrs. The_Riv and I will be watching a movie in an otherwise still and quiet house when the clothes washer will turn on and play its little tune. I'll get up, walk toward it and say, "If you're a spirit, soul, or ghost and you're here right now, turn on the clothes dryer!" (I would absolutely looooooooovvvvvveee it if it ever happened!). Nothing. Of course, for a long time we thought the quirk was in the wiring of the appliance, but it's also happened a couple of times with our son's hair/beard trimmer in the bathroom in the back of the house -- it just turned on and sat there buzzing in its charger. I've made the same invitation re: a battery-operated toothbrush in the same space, but to no avail. Maybe one day the ectoplasm will overcome our dimension. Here's hoping.
Dude. Can I suggest you get an electrician out? I seem to recall hearing about similar issues going on in a house, and it turned out to be some dangerous wiring fault.
If the suicides are messing with the beard trimmer, they've got way too much time on their hands, and ought to come visit me and make themselves useful.
I don't think anyone is saying that faith and church attendance are synonymous.
But it is a communal expression of faith. As we have been mentioning and a chance for those who don’t believe to see communal faith in action. Not that is the reason they do Food Bank etc, it is a consequence.
As to the mystery. Well God in many ways is a mystery. Our faith must have that in it.
I have communal faith that people are worth it. Nothing to do with religion.
What mystery? There are infinite real ones of of course. But God isn't one of them. He's a synthetic mystery from irreconcilable arbitrary religious propositions.
And yet what evidence do you have that God is synthetic? You can believe that and are free to do so, I will not deny that. That said what actual evidence do you have to back up your view on a discussion board such as this. In a sub board such as Purgatory. We can neither prove it disprove outright. God will always be a mystery to us because we cannot fully comprehend him.
Missed this! We make God up. And that is no belief. It is a fact. I'm not free to 'believe' anything else. I know. Ancient Egypt, The Bible, Judaism, Christianity, Islam are synthetic. Fiction. Made up. They made themselves up. Like all religion, all cultures, all art, even science and philosophy and history. We make it all up. We make ourselves up. The Greeks made up atoms. They happened to be right. In matters of religion there is nothing there to disprove, there is no mystery but nature.
Unless you have a universal instance of the fingerpost?
If everything is made up then what does the making up? If we’re made up and all of reality is made up, then what is it made up out of?
Do you know what you did there?
I don’t, what did I do?
All, every, human expression, thought, word, action is synthetic. No? Made up. We make it all up. No? Anything we don't? We make ourselves up, we actually have a part in our own emergence. In the chain of factorial emergence, complexity on complexity on... complexity from the ground of being. No?
That's what comes out of a man.
What goes in is sense data, second hand, third rate, from reality. No? Stirs the stuff in the bone pot. No?
The natural infinite ground of being makes all stuff up. Including this. The lab is empty and the chemicals talk. Bags of enzymes realise they are bags of enzymes.
It's all reality, but not all reality is equal. The taste of the brew fermented in our bone pots is not the taste of anything we're tasting. In itself. No?
And no superfluous outside intentional agency required.
Unless you know something I don't. You know, like a universal instance of the fingerpost?
No?
Nah. For us to "have a part in our own emergence" means that there is an "us" already there to do the emerging. So there's a kernel of "us," and then there's sense data and then there's reality that is evidently in layers. So it sounds like there are plenty of things that aren't made up. Sure, you're not a scientific realist, why would you be it's boring. All language is made up? I mean, pretty roundly argued against by all sorts of linguists, philosophers, psychologists, and cognitive scientists but yeah man why not. So we drift into constructivism with a dash of philosophical idealism for spice. But since we've already acknowledged that there are things that aren't made up, I'm not sure why we'd then suddenly go all constructivist.
Regardless, my question was what does the making up if everything is made up, your answer is that we do the making up because we make ourselves, so there's a part of us that isn't made up, and that seems like a contradiction to me.
Well it would wouldn't it. As your reiteration of the - meaningless - question, preceded by specious fallacy, ad hominem, false dichotomy, shows.
We are synthesized by emergent evolution before we emerge. We are hard wired for experience including language, morality. So yes all language is made up, one way or another.
Once we have emerged, once there is an "us", in the royal plural, utterly dependent on us, then that entity participates in further emergent development. Like this "conversation".
I don't think anyone is saying that faith and church attendance are synonymous.
But it is a communal expression of faith. As we have been mentioning and a chance for those who don’t believe to see communal faith in action. Not that is the reason they do Food Bank etc, it is a consequence.
As to the mystery. Well God in many ways is a mystery. Our faith must have that in it.
I have communal faith that people are worth it. Nothing to do with religion.
What mystery? There are infinite real ones of of course. But God isn't one of them. He's a synthetic mystery from irreconcilable arbitrary religious propositions.
And yet what evidence do you have that God is synthetic? You can believe that and are free to do so, I will not deny that. That said what actual evidence do you have to back up your view on a discussion board such as this. In a sub board such as Purgatory. We can neither prove it disprove outright. God will always be a mystery to us because we cannot fully comprehend him.
Missed this! We make God up. And that is no belief. It is a fact. I'm not free to 'believe' anything else. I know. Ancient Egypt, The Bible, Judaism, Christianity, Islam are synthetic. Fiction. Made up. They made themselves up. Like all religion, all cultures, all art, even science and philosophy and history. We make it all up. We make ourselves up. The Greeks made up atoms. They happened to be right. In matters of religion there is nothing there to disprove, there is no mystery but nature.
Unless you have a universal instance of the fingerpost?
If everything is made up then what does the making up? If we’re made up and all of reality is made up, then what is it made up out of?
Do you know what you did there?
I don’t, what did I do?
All, every, human expression, thought, word, action is synthetic. No? Made up. We make it all up. No? Anything we don't? We make ourselves up, we actually have a part in our own emergence. In the chain of factorial emergence, complexity on complexity on... complexity from the ground of being. No?
That's what comes out of a man.
What goes in is sense data, second hand, third rate, from reality. No? Stirs the stuff in the bone pot. No?
The natural infinite ground of being makes all stuff up. Including this. The lab is empty and the chemicals talk. Bags of enzymes realise they are bags of enzymes.
It's all reality, but not all reality is equal. The taste of the brew fermented in our bone pots is not the taste of anything we're tasting. In itself. No?
And no superfluous outside intentional agency required.
Unless you know something I don't. You know, like a universal instance of the fingerpost?
I don't think anyone is saying that faith and church attendance are synonymous.
But it is a communal expression of faith. As we have been mentioning and a chance for those who don’t believe to see communal faith in action. Not that is the reason they do Food Bank etc, it is a consequence.
As to the mystery. Well God in many ways is a mystery. Our faith must have that in it.
I have communal faith that people are worth it. Nothing to do with religion.
What mystery? There are infinite real ones of of course. But God isn't one of them. He's a synthetic mystery from irreconcilable arbitrary religious propositions.
And yet what evidence do you have that God is synthetic? You can believe that and are free to do so, I will not deny that. That said what actual evidence do you have to back up your view on a discussion board such as this. In a sub board such as Purgatory. We can neither prove it disprove outright. God will always be a mystery to us because we cannot fully comprehend him.
Missed this! We make God up. And that is no belief. It is a fact. I'm not free to 'believe' anything else. I know. Ancient Egypt, The Bible, Judaism, Christianity, Islam are synthetic. Fiction. Made up. They made themselves up. Like all religion, all cultures, all art, even science and philosophy and history. We make it all up. We make ourselves up. The Greeks made up atoms. They happened to be right. In matters of religion there is nothing there to disprove, there is no mystery but nature.
Unless you have a universal instance of the fingerpost?
If everything is made up then what does the making up? If we’re made up and all of reality is made up, then what is it made up out of?
Do you know what you did there?
I don’t, what did I do?
All, every, human expression, thought, word, action is synthetic. No? Made up. We make it all up. No? Anything we don't? We make ourselves up, we actually have a part in our own emergence. In the chain of factorial emergence, complexity on complexity on... complexity from the ground of being. No?
That's what comes out of a man.
What goes in is sense data, second hand, third rate, from reality. No? Stirs the stuff in the bone pot. No?
The natural infinite ground of being makes all stuff up. Including this. The lab is empty and the chemicals talk. Bags of enzymes realise they are bags of enzymes.
It's all reality, but not all reality is equal. The taste of the brew fermented in our bone pots is not the taste of anything we're tasting. In itself. No?
And no superfluous outside intentional agency required.
Unless you know something I don't. You know, like a universal instance of the fingerpost?
No?
Nah. For us to "have a part in our own emergence" means that there is an "us" already there to do the emerging. So there's a kernel of "us," and then there's sense data and then there's reality that is evidently in layers. So it sounds like there are plenty of things that aren't made up. Sure, you're not a scientific realist, why would you be it's boring. All language is made up? I mean, pretty roundly argued against by all sorts of linguists, philosophers, psychologists, and cognitive scientists but yeah man why not. So we drift into constructivism with a dash of philosophical idealism for spice. But since we've already acknowledged that there are things that aren't made up, I'm not sure why we'd then suddenly go all constructivist.
Regardless, my question was what does the making up if everything is made up, your answer is that we do the making up because we make ourselves, so there's a part of us that isn't made up, and that seems like a contradiction to me.
Well it would wouldn't it. As your reiteration of the - meaningless - question, preceded by specious fallacy, ad hominem, false dichotomy, shows.
We are synthesized by emergent evolution before we emerge. We are hard wired for experience including language, morality. So yes all language is made up, one way or another.
Once we have emerged, once there is an "us", in the royal plural, utterly dependent on us, then that entity participates in further emergent development. Like this "conversation".
I'm not sure how humans can be hard wired for something and then that something be made up. If we're hard wired for it then surely it's natural? So that would mean it isn't made up? It also seems difficult to argue that a universal feature of human experience and culture is made up. Unless you're using "made up" in a way that I'm not familiar with.
I don't think anyone is saying that faith and church attendance are synonymous.
But it is a communal expression of faith. As we have been mentioning and a chance for those who don’t believe to see communal faith in action. Not that is the reason they do Food Bank etc, it is a consequence.
As to the mystery. Well God in many ways is a mystery. Our faith must have that in it.
I have communal faith that people are worth it. Nothing to do with religion.
What mystery? There are infinite real ones of of course. But God isn't one of them. He's a synthetic mystery from irreconcilable arbitrary religious propositions.
And yet what evidence do you have that God is synthetic? You can believe that and are free to do so, I will not deny that. That said what actual evidence do you have to back up your view on a discussion board such as this. In a sub board such as Purgatory. We can neither prove it disprove outright. God will always be a mystery to us because we cannot fully comprehend him.
Missed this! We make God up. And that is no belief. It is a fact. I'm not free to 'believe' anything else. I know. Ancient Egypt, The Bible, Judaism, Christianity, Islam are synthetic. Fiction. Made up. They made themselves up. Like all religion, all cultures, all art, even science and philosophy and history. We make it all up. We make ourselves up. The Greeks made up atoms. They happened to be right. In matters of religion there is nothing there to disprove, there is no mystery but nature.
Unless you have a universal instance of the fingerpost?
If everything is made up then what does the making up? If we’re made up and all of reality is made up, then what is it made up out of?
Do you know what you did there?
I don’t, what did I do?
All, every, human expression, thought, word, action is synthetic. No? Made up. We make it all up. No? Anything we don't? We make ourselves up, we actually have a part in our own emergence. In the chain of factorial emergence, complexity on complexity on... complexity from the ground of being. No?
That's what comes out of a man.
What goes in is sense data, second hand, third rate, from reality. No? Stirs the stuff in the bone pot. No?
The natural infinite ground of being makes all stuff up. Including this. The lab is empty and the chemicals talk. Bags of enzymes realise they are bags of enzymes.
It's all reality, but not all reality is equal. The taste of the brew fermented in our bone pots is not the taste of anything we're tasting. In itself. No?
And no superfluous outside intentional agency required.
Unless you know something I don't. You know, like a universal instance of the fingerpost?
No?
Nah. For us to "have a part in our own emergence" means that there is an "us" already there to do the emerging. So there's a kernel of "us," and then there's sense data and then there's reality that is evidently in layers. So it sounds like there are plenty of things that aren't made up. Sure, you're not a scientific realist, why would you be it's boring. All language is made up? I mean, pretty roundly argued against by all sorts of linguists, philosophers, psychologists, and cognitive scientists but yeah man why not. So we drift into constructivism with a dash of philosophical idealism for spice. But since we've already acknowledged that there are things that aren't made up, I'm not sure why we'd then suddenly go all constructivist.
Regardless, my question was what does the making up if everything is made up, your answer is that we do the making up because we make ourselves, so there's a part of us that isn't made up, and that seems like a contradiction to me.
Well it would wouldn't it. As your reiteration of the - meaningless - question, preceded by specious fallacy, ad hominem, false dichotomy, shows.
We are synthesized by emergent evolution before we emerge. We are hard wired for experience including language, morality. So yes all language is made up, one way or another.
Once we have emerged, once there is an "us", in the royal plural, utterly dependent on us, then that entity participates in further emergent development. Like this "conversation".
I'm not sure how humans can be hard wired for something and then that something be made up. If we're hard wired for it then surely it's natural? So that would mean it isn't made up? It also seems difficult to argue that a universal feature of human experience and culture is made up. Unless you're using "made up" in a way that I'm not familiar with.
The hard wiring is evolved. I.e. made up. Synthesized. Nature, from the natural ground of being, synthesizes. Makes stuff up. What universal features of human experience aren't made up?
Comments
And yet what evidence do you have that God is synthetic? You can believe that and are free to do so, I will not deny that. That said what actual evidence do you have to back up your view on a discussion board such as this. In a sub board such as Purgatory. We can neither prove it disprove outright. God will always be a mystery to us because we cannot fully comprehend him.
Not well enough. By its fruits.
So much so that we capitalise it. 😉
But yes, God can only be 'known' insofar as he reveals himself - and supremely in Christ, of course.
A cynic - or even a sincere doubter - would say that this is a convenient cop-out. 'We can't fully comprehend, therefore it's a Mystery...'
Or, 'What are you talking about? He hasn't revealed himself to me ...'
'And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness ...' 1 Timothy 3:16 (NKJV).
Well, there does seem to be a heck of a lot of 'controversy', but, 'God was manifested in the flesh ...'
@Martin54 -- I'd say, at the risk of another loaded term, I'm in the middle of a revelation, in the same way a sculpter renders a finished product. Just very gently chiseling away the unnecessary material of religion. Unlike a sculpter, though, I can't say what this thing is going to look like in the end.
True @HarryCH.
I believe in the minimum it is justified to do so beyond science and rationality. Namely, on the trajectory of Jesus, that we're all worth it. Kindness.
Wondering further.....
Reconstruction sounds like picking through the rubble and reclaiming, perhaps altering, what is still of value, then building that back into your life. Have I understood (close to) rightly? (If not, just say, "No," and you can spare yourself the rest of my post.)
I'll assume I'm right enough to carry on here.
I think that Being Kind, if we value it, is a skill any of us continues to learn to understand (verstehenlernen) and practice practicing the rest of our lives. This really isn't something that can be deconstructed or reconstructed but is, rather, part of development; wisdom. Or did you actually deconstruct Being Kind?
On the other hand, you mention yearning and meaning sometimes. Is it yearning for meaning? I think you've said as much? Is meaning really the thing that needs reconstructing?
My helpless failure, inadequacy, is deeply exposed here. And it's not my fault. I'm not to blame. There. Kindness to self...
I am so niggled by helpless belief now.
Threads like
How do you know if you believe?
Can you have Christianity without Christ?
'minimal witness' explanation for resurrection
Faith and Coincidences
none of which contain the absurd leap of faith as far as I'm myopically seeing. Can you? All of which, surprise, surprise, at best deconstructively, liberally, best case, assume the divine. Which, of course, is fair enough on a mediocre Christian website. But I'd like to see the admission that at most it's not intellectually justified in the slightest. What would Plato's sock puppet Socrates have said twenty four hundred, two thousand four hundred, years ago eh? About such untrue opinion? Let alone Kierkegaard.
There is even a refrain of the feeble attempts by Protestant apologists to see an instance of the fingerpost in the texts when there is none; counting 'witnesses'.
Not very kind is it : )
Is it anything like that?
😉
@Martin54, It's striking that "losing your religion" was one of the prices of this wisdom -- plus the excrutiating pain that went with the process -- scales falling away over years. By your description, though, the loss seems like a relief attained through torture.
As a parent of a teen and a young adult, the thing I currently find hardest to handle, is cringingly watching them say and do things I had once said and done. "Don't go there! You ought to know better!" But of course they can't. They haven't gone there yet. And where they go is not always the same as where I went. My being niggled will not help. Yours won't either.
Kierkegaard's leap will not help you in the way I think you have in mind here. It was not in regard to belief in God. That was rock bottom true for him, which I understand was the case for Plato as well. Kierkegaard's leap was the exercise of that faith. Such faith has been expressed in some of those threads you listed, if I remember rightly, and without attempt at intellectual apology.
Whoooo! I sit at your feet teacher lady. My Dad could be an absolute bastard and then some, but I still miss him. I still love him. I haven't 'outgrown' him. I understand him more than ever and still want the conversation.
Your second para is... !!! *
And your third is devastating, a plaster ripped off a hairy arm. My ignorance runneth over. That K. was in the company of P. & S. in unexaminable faith. And merely concerned about what to do about it, as was I, at Radford Bottom Lock. What exalted company I keep. And despair of. So what was K's meaningless absurdity of existence in God about? He didn't know that all it was about, in God or no, is kindness?
* You can't have the conversation at that end of the spectrum either! And aye, those threads only have the unexaminable assumption of unexaminable God.
Fear and Trembling (Trans. Bruce Kirmmse) Bookshare edition, 18%.
From my Kindergarten-level study so far, it seems that Kierkegaard spent most of his life examining his faith, but not in a way that concluded as you have.
I cannot tell you to what degree and in what manner he was kind and by what way he came about it. The material is all there, even his diaries.
So, K. was examining what he he had downstream of his unexaminable assumption of God? What was it? It seems analogous to my Radford Bottom Lock problem. And just as meaningless. What was K's absurd leap of faith beyond faith? Eudaimonism in the sense of how then should we live? In the light of God, what should we do? What should we leap into?
He never concluded it was kindness? He couldn't engage with the pursuit of social justice and was a social conservative. Looks pretty Calvinist to me.
He impoverished himself, doing what?
Again you say something but have no real argument. The possibility is there for there to be something beyond our logic. Believing because we feel it is right is a reason to believe. Our logic cannot explain all things. We can’t even be sure that the scientific research on our origins has not taken a wrong path somewhere. I am not talking about science verses Genesis One. By its very nature we have no real first hand evidence. We could have gone wrong somewhere. Logic is not always the answer.
By what definition of argument? I.e. of logic? The basis of science, rationality, philosophy. I'm certain that there is an infinity of real data that our minds will never encompass. How infinite nature grounds itself, how M-branes colliding in 11-D make universes. And there is another infinity of the unreal, including God, Cthulhu, the collective unconscious, Gaia, the noosphere which we can happily encompass in our ignorant imaginings. Believing because we feel it is right, is a reason in the sense of an explanation. But reason has nothing to do with it. History is full of believed evil as right to this moment.
Where could the scientific research on our origins taken a wrong path somewhere? We don't need first hand evidence. Logic is always the answer.
Not all bootstraps are real.
So there are no self-evident truths? All are equal? Theist propositions are as valid as atheist?
Additional Resources for Continuing Research:
Primary Sources
- Kierkegaard's Journals and Notebooks; This is part of the ebook edition of these. More compact. Print is 12 volumes. I like Kirmmse's translation work of other books. These should be an engaging read.
- Kierkegaard's Writings, Vols I-XXVII. This is the most comprehensive collection of his work in English.
- The Essential Kierkegaard, I is my understanding that this is the most extensive single-volume anthology of his work. I found the selection from Fear and Trembling inadequate for my interests, but it provides a good overview of the man's work.
Secondary SourcesI have not read this book but am familiar with authors of a few of the chapters. This sounds like it might focus nicely on a number of your areas of enquiry.
@Martin54 Please let me know, if there is any other information I can help you locate.
Although it turns out that like Plato and Socrates, Kierkegaard believed unquestionably in the divine, and wondered what to do about that.
I don't believe in an unquestionable God. And I don't wonder what to do about that either way.
There's a lot in the OP, in this thread and on my mind. Staying with what I quoted:
By looking backward, or comparing my past and my present. The same way I realized I'm a feminist. Denominationally, I'm not supposed to be one. In thought and practice, though, I am. I've given up trying to make it work for other people. I am what I am. I've become this over time and thought and life. My husband has always been one without recognizing it, too, I think. He has unconsciously supported my realization. We've corrupted our children as well.
Looking backward and forward again to the present, I know I am a Christian, too. But a different one than I was 50, 40, 30, or 5 years ago. When Dad died, hell became unimaginable. Denominationally, that's beyond the pale. Got no verses to support my concern here, but.... I know I can't imagine it, even with help from Hieronymus Bosch. Change continues.
I know fear, even terror, over their faith tortures many people, which seems to be the inspiration of the OP, and I read such descriptions, and @Martin54 's crisis of faith on Radford Bottom Lock, with grief for what they have been through.
That has not been my experience (and has nothing to do with a feeling of deserving or not deserving).
Meanwhile, I don't wish to interfere, @Kendel but it doesn't sound to me like you are in the 'right' denomination for where you are 'at.'
Missed this! We make God up. And that is no belief. It is a fact. I'm not free to 'believe' anything else. I know. Ancient Egypt, The Bible, Judaism, Christianity, Islam are synthetic. Fiction. Made up. They made themselves up. Like all religion, all cultures, all art, even science and philosophy and history. We make it all up. We make ourselves up. The Greeks made up atoms. They happened to be right. In matters of religion there is nothing there to disprove, there is no mystery but nature.
Unless you have a universal instance of the fingerpost?
If everything is made up then what does the making up? If we’re made up and all of reality is made up, then what is it made up out of?
Two years ago my family and I left our church of 21 years. I've written about it somein the Church as Community thread. I'm not ready to pull up roots; I don't want to need to. And then the question of where to go from here.....
But that's all for some other thread.
Do you know what you did there?
Well, thanks. I'm not sure how much material is left at which to chisel. My mind can't accommodate the supernatural anymore, so as far as things going downhill they begin to level off pretty quickly after that. Further realizations about how the sausage of religion is made don't leave much more than an empty casing. That, of course, is confounding, disappointing (even heart breaking), and infuriating as one takes stock from a completely different perspective, but bit by bit the hole that's revealed starts to refill. And it's not necessarily or completely devoid of religious-y things, but, it is a process.
I'm glad. Mine is re-filling almost completely devoid of religious-y things, tho' I have sacred things. I'm still forlornly hoping for an instance of the fingerpost of course. Like Ricky Gervaise. One that would instantly convert the New Atheists. One of the nice, unexpected things that has filled the void, is that as Christianity, starting with Jesus, are entirely natural, even with no good will to Jesus as an historical figure (which I have in plenty), they make us look good.
I don’t, what did I do?
Sacred, yes! Numinous, yes! Even the Mysterious in some cases. Here's a stupid example: From time to time Mrs. The_Riv and I will be watching a movie in an otherwise still and quiet house when the clothes washer will turn on and play its little tune. I'll get up, walk toward it and say, "If you're a spirit, soul, or ghost and you're here right now, turn on the clothes dryer!" (I would absolutely looooooooovvvvvveee it if it ever happened!). Nothing. Of course, for a long time we thought the quirk was in the wiring of the appliance, but it's also happened a couple of times with our son's hair/beard trimmer in the bathroom in the back of the house -- it just turned on and sat there buzzing in its charger. I've made the same invitation re: a battery-operated toothbrush in the same space, but to no avail. Maybe one day the ectoplasm will overcome our dimension. Here's hoping.
Mostly, though, there's renewed and increased urgency for life, since I am no longer under any illusions that there's an afterlife. Really, really, really wanting as rich a remaining experience as possible.
All, every, human expression, thought, word, action is synthetic. No? Made up. We make it all up. No? Anything we don't? We make ourselves up, we actually have a part in our own emergence. In the chain of factorial emergence, complexity on complexity on... complexity from the ground of being. No?
That's what comes out of a man.
What goes in is sense data, second hand, third rate, from reality. No? Stirs the stuff in the bone pot. No?
The natural infinite ground of being makes all stuff up. Including this. The lab is empty and the chemicals talk. Bags of enzymes realise they are bags of enzymes.
It's all reality, but not all reality is equal. The taste of the brew fermented in our bone pots is not the taste of anything we're tasting. In itself. No?
And no superfluous outside intentional agency required.
Unless you know something I don't. You know, like a universal instance of the fingerpost?
No?
I can do stupid. I like it. But not THAT stupid! : ) I say Oh God! God in Heaven! all the time, and I'm yearning when I do it. How stupid is that?! I prefer it to Fuck! Fuck off! Usually. I'm too much the Puritan positivist to accept any miracle but one that makes Dawkins and Dennett bow the knee. And my dog not barking in the night isn't good enough.
Nah. For us to "have a part in our own emergence" means that there is an "us" already there to do the emerging. So there's a kernel of "us," and then there's sense data and then there's reality that is evidently in layers. So it sounds like there are plenty of things that aren't made up. Sure, you're not a scientific realist, why would you be it's boring. All language is made up? I mean, pretty roundly argued against by all sorts of linguists, philosophers, psychologists, and cognitive scientists but yeah man why not. So we drift into constructivism with a dash of philosophical idealism for spice. But since we've already acknowledged that there are things that aren't made up, I'm not sure why we'd then suddenly go all constructivist.
Regardless, my question was what does the making up if everything is made up, your answer is that we do the making up because we make ourselves, so there's a part of us that isn't made up, and that seems like a contradiction to me.
Dude. Can I suggest you get an electrician out? I seem to recall hearing about similar issues going on in a house, and it turned out to be some dangerous wiring fault.
It’s way more interesting to think about the fact that on this street, suicides took place one house to our east, and two houses to our west.
Well it would wouldn't it. As your reiteration of the - meaningless - question, preceded by specious fallacy, ad hominem, false dichotomy, shows.
We are synthesized by emergent evolution before we emerge. We are hard wired for experience including language, morality. So yes all language is made up, one way or another.
Once we have emerged, once there is an "us", in the royal plural, utterly dependent on us, then that entity participates in further emergent development. Like this "conversation".
Well, those are certainly words.
I'm not sure how humans can be hard wired for something and then that something be made up. If we're hard wired for it then surely it's natural? So that would mean it isn't made up? It also seems difficult to argue that a universal feature of human experience and culture is made up. Unless you're using "made up" in a way that I'm not familiar with.
The hard wiring is evolved. I.e. made up. Synthesized. Nature, from the natural ground of being, synthesizes. Makes stuff up. What universal features of human experience aren't made up?