Purgatory: 2024 U.S. Presidential Election Thread (Epiphanies rules apply)

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  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    For those who don't want to visit Xitter, here's a YouTube version of Joe Biden throwing down the debating gauntlet to Donald Trump.
  • Crœsos wrote: »
    For those who don't want to visit Xitter, here's a YouTube version of Joe Biden throwing down the debating gauntlet to Donald Trump.

    Thank you
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    I don't need that kind of canned bravado from a POTUS, but here we are.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited May 2024
    The_Riv wrote: »
    I don't need that kind of canned bravado from a POTUS, but here we are.

    Usually, I'd agree, but "Sleepy Joe"'s supposed inability to debate has been an issue for a while now, so he needs to do something to put that to bed.

    Personally, I wasn't crazy about the Dirty Harry reference, mostly just because I remember Reagan using it as part of his faux-macho schtick in the 80s.

    But my main concern was "I hear you have Wednesdays free." I think the Democrats need to campaign as if these trials aren't going on, because if they build up the public's expectation of a conviction, but Trump is acquitted, the GOP will spin it as comeback-kid narrative.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    ...if they build up the public's expectation of a conviction, but Trump is acquitted, the GOP will spin it as comeback-kid narrative.

    Don't get me wrong. It'll be great from the Democrats' perspective if Trump is convicted of something before the election. But nothing Biden or anyone else says on the campaign trail is gonna increase the chances of that.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    I understand the first debate will be between Biden and Trump with no audience attending. Just the moderator to pose the questions.
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    I understand the first debate will be between Biden and Trump with no audience attending. Just the moderator to pose the questions.

    And an automatic mute of one man's mic for the first two minutes of the other's response.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    The_Riv wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    I understand the first debate will be between Biden and Trump with no audience attending. Just the moderator to pose the questions.

    And an automatic mute of one man's mic for the first two minutes of the other's response.

    You say one man. Can I guess who you are talking about?
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    edited May 2024
    It applies equally to both, though it was inspired by Tr*mp’s over-talking behavior last time ‘round.

    ETA: Tr*mp doesn’t want to debate — he wants to argue, to be seen in abusive conflict.

    I won’t be watching.
  • The_Riv wrote: »
    It applies equally to both, though it was inspired by Tr*mp’s over-talking behavior last time ‘round.

    ETA: Tr*mp doesn’t want to debate — he wants to argue, to be seen in abusive conflict.

    I won’t be watching.

    Nor will I watch. Too upsetting for me.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Nice
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Hugal wrote: »
    Nice

    What's nice?
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    That people won’t be watching
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    edited May 2024
    I'd watch genuine policy discussions, and gladly digest legitimate differences in approach or philosophy, but that's not what we get any more in these televised dog & pony shows. I'm getting to the point that if I'm not going to actually roll up my sleeves and do some actual participatory work in government at any level, I'm just not going to direct much if any energy toward politics -- governance and politics are not the same thing. That's nothing new, but the universe of "alternate facts" has made it impossible to take our never ending culture war-driven campaigns seriously in any way.
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    Wow. Thanks @alienfromzog. I hope it will be available online.
  • HedgehogHedgehog Shipmate
    Trump's social media account apparently has had second thoughts about praising the economic benefit of "a unified Reich."
  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    Oh dear Lord...
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Hedgehog wrote: »
    Trump's social media account apparently has had second thoughts about praising the economic benefit of "a unified Reich."

    The video was on Truth Social for 19 hours! I think it speaks volumes of Trump's mindset. After all, he reportedly said (illegal immigrants) taint American blood. When someone pointed out Hitler said the same thing about Jews and German blood, he denied knowing that.

  • JonahManJonahMan Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Hedgehog wrote: »
    Trump's social media account apparently has had second thoughts about praising the economic benefit of "a unified Reich."

    The video was on Truth Social for 19 hours! I think it speaks volumes of Trump's mindset. After all, he reportedly said (illegal immigrants) taint American blood. When someone pointed out Hitler said the same thing about Jews and German blood, he denied knowing that.

    When Trump says that he doesn't know something it is the only time you can be sure he is telling the truth.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    edited May 2024
    JonahMan wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Hedgehog wrote: »
    Trump's social media account apparently has had second thoughts about praising the economic benefit of "a unified Reich."

    The video was on Truth Social for 19 hours! I think it speaks volumes of Trump's mindset. After all, he reportedly said (illegal immigrants) taint American blood. When someone pointed out Hitler said the same thing about Jews and German blood, he denied knowing that.

    When Trump says that he doesn't know something it is the only time you can be sure he is telling the truth.

    Unless it's criminal and/or sexual, in which case we can be sure he's lying.
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    Trump would never admit to not knowing something unless he thinks knowing it would make him look bad. That means he'd have to know enough about it to know it makes him look bad.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Can I really believe he didn’t know about the Final Solution. He surely is not that stupid… I may have to withdraw that statement. I watch from across the pond in unbelief.
  • HarryCHHarryCH Shipmate
    He also was apparently not aware that Hitler's generals made attempts to kill him.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited May 2024
    The reason why Trump's lawyers would not allow him to take the stand in his defense is because they knew if he opened his mouth he would be lying. Ya, sure, he did not realize a certain video was on his Truth Social for 19 hours. But even if he didn't, the video speaks volumes about the people supporting him.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    The reason why Trump's lawyers would not allow him to take the stand in his defense is because they knew if he opened his mouth he would be lying.
    His lawyers cannot stop him from taking the stand. They can advise him against it, and explain why it’s a bad idea, but ultimately it’s his call.

    And it’s very rare that criminal defense lawyers advise their clients to take the stand. While I agree that if Trump is talking he’s probably lying, it’s really not worth reading too much into his not testifying at his criminal trial.

  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Nikki Hailey has come out saying she will vote for Trump. Trump definitely shows people for who they are. Ms Hailey has long said she would not vote for Trump, but in the end, she did not have the b--er, guts to follow through. Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger were the only two national Republicans who have put their careers on the line, standing up to him.

    A sad day for the Republican party.
  • ChastMastrChastMastr Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Hedgehog wrote: »
    Trump's social media account apparently has had second thoughts about praising the economic benefit of "a unified Reich."

    The video was on Truth Social for 19 hours! I think it speaks volumes of Trump's mindset. After all, he reportedly said (illegal immigrants) taint American blood. When someone pointed out Hitler said the same thing about Jews and German blood, he denied knowing that.

    Trump apparently read a book of Hitler’s speeches that he kept by his bedside, claimed by his ex-wife Ivana, as far back as 1990.

    More on this here.

    https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/donald-trumps-history-adolf-hitler-nazi-writings-analysis/story?id=105810745
  • ChastMastrChastMastr Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Nikki Hailey has come out saying she will vote for Trump. Trump definitely shows people for who they are. Ms Hailey has long said she would not vote for Trump, but in the end, she did not have the b--er, guts to follow through. Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger were the only two national Republicans who have put their careers on the line, standing up to him.

    A sad day for the Republican party.

    Dammit. I was really, really hoping she’d stand up to him.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    I spelled Ms Haley's name wrong. Sorry.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    edited June 2024
    Trump has opened the Overton Window wider than ever. Embracing Clinton's human scum. And not in the good way that she utterly failed to appreciate.
  • HarryCHHarryCH Shipmate
    The claim that Trump has been reading Hitler's speeches is interesting, suggesting that he is in fact literate.
  • Is anyone watching the great debate? I am not. I already know who I am voting for so no need and I think it will only upset me.
  • Is anyone watching the great debate? I am not. I already know who I am voting for so no need and I think it will only upset me.
    Ditto. I’ll catch the recaps.

  • Yep, me three. I'm pretty sure the only valuable bits of it (if any) could be condensed into a 50 word summary.
  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    Yeah, it makes me too nervous. With any luck, Trump will be at his usual worst, and Biden at his best, but suppose something happens to make Biden look bad?
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Is anyone watching the great debate? I am not. I already know who I am voting for so no need and I think it will only upset me.
    Ditto. I’ll catch the recaps.

    1. I don't get a vote. (From the old country)
    2. Don't think I can bare to watch but:
    3. It could be a sight to see...

    Over the past year, Trump, never one of the world's great thinkers, has shown increasing cognitive decline. We may witness him just disintegrate on stage.

    Just a thought.

    AFZ
  • I'm not sure I could tell disintegration from his normal behavior, to tell the truth.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited June 2024
    NicoleMR wrote: »
    Yeah, it makes me too nervous. With any luck, Trump will be at his usual worst, and Biden at his best, but suppose something happens to make Biden look bad?
    Either way, will many people be watching to see it?


  • I rather doubt it, but suspect everybody will be interested in the Twitter fodder afterward.
  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    I'm hoping that the undecideds watch it, and Trump completely melts down and loses it.
  • NicoleMR wrote: »
    I'm hoping that the undecideds watch it, and Trump completely melts down and loses it.

    This is the thing. And it's not just undecideds.

    MAGAs are voting for him anyway.
    Pathetic Republicans, scared of the MAGAs are pandying to him and therefore some Repubs who don't really like him will vote against Biden.

    Those numbers are probably not going to change.

    But there are two other groups who really matter.

    FWIW, I think Biden has a very impressive list of achievements and people should vote for him but that's by the by really.

    There are two groups who matter:
    1. Independents and undecideds
    2. Democrats

    Biden needs group 1 to see how awful Trump is therefore vote for him. There is a sub-group of 2 who can't stand Trump but are disappointed in Biden and might not turn out. If they see Trump in his full glory then they will be motivated to vote.

    This is how Biden wins.

    Intriguingly, it probably does not matter if they watch. The clips will be out there. In a couple of weeks' time we will know if the debate shifts the dial. But it might. Which is why I think Biden is right to agree to this (on his terms). He avoids the charge of being chicken and he can potentially lay bare who Trump is.

    Received wisdom is that Trump's nature is already baked in to the electorate's thinking. I don't think that's quite true. I think there's a large number of people who do not fully engage in politics and just want to get on with their lives. These are the people who vote sometimes and for both parties. These people have some notion of Trump and Biden but don't think it makes a difference to their lives which one of them is in the Whitehouse. This is an opportunity to show them that it does make a difference.

    Time will tell.

    AFZ
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited June 2024
    According to NPR yesterday, it is estimated 60% of all Americans are expected to watch it.

    It will be an unusual debate for a number of reasons.
    1. It is before the nominating conventions of both parties. Does not usually happen until after they are officially nominated.
    2. There will be no live audience--something which Trump is known to play up to.
    3. The moderator (or his assistant) will have strict control over the microphones.
    4. This will be the first time a convicted felon will be in the debate (as if you cannot tell whom I am routing for).

    Me? Yes I will watch it to the bitter end. I know if my wife and her friends were watching it--they seem to be scattered to the four winds (traveling all) --they would have type of drinking game, or sock throwing game to play.

    Expect to see a break in the polls within the next week.

  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    According to NPR yesterday, it is estimated 60% of all Americans are expected to watch it.
    I find that pretty hard to believe, and I can’t find any reference to it online. I did find references to a CBS poll that 60% of “voters” (registered voters? likely voters?) will watch at least some of the debate.

    That said, I can imagine that a good portion the MAGA crowd will tune in because they’ll want to watch and cheer on Trump.


  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    According to NPR yesterday, it is estimated 60% of all Americans are expected to watch it.
    I find that pretty hard to believe, and I can’t find any reference to it online. I did find references to a CBS poll that 60% of “voters” (registered voters? likely voters?) will watch at least some of the debate.

    That said, I can imagine that a good portion the MAGA crowd will tune in because they’ll want to watch and cheer on Trump.

    Super Bowl 2023 was apparently the most-watched TV show in US history, but if my slapdash arithmetic is correct, it got less than a third of Americans tuning in.

    So yeah, sports being generally more popular than politics, I'm skeptical that 60% will be watching the debate live. Maybe 60% of all people who are watching TV at that time?
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited June 2024
    I posted my comments before I had enough coffee. I was not thinking right. Sorry.

    45 minutes to show time.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    I posted my comments before I had enough coffee. I was not thinking right. Sorry.
    Ah, something I know from personal experience all too well. No worries.


  • PowderkegPowderkeg Castaway
    Wow...Biden looked and sounded like absolute dogshit tonight.

    If his task is to convince voters that he's vigorous enough for four more years in the White House, that performance tonight won't cut it.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Watch the debate. In sum, I think the American people lost. Biden came out with such a raspy voice. Reporters were asking what was happening. 40 minutes into the debate, his camp said he had a cold. His answers many times became jumbled. His stuttering was bad.

    It seemed like Trump was having a field day beating up on an old man. His theme basically centered around how illegal immigration was destroying America. I note the many times he refused to answer the questions given to him. On immigration itself, he was asked would he deport all undocumented people. Never answered. Never answered the question of how he would protect social security. Never answered how he would support child care.
    Never answered if he would accept the results of the next election.

    If I were the Democratic National Committee, I would be encouraging Biden to withdraw his candidacy and allow Camella Harris to take the reigns. Otherwise, I think America is about to return to the Dark Ages.

    I am sorry to say.
  • I think what Biden actually said—I watched about 15 minutes of it, about halfway through—was good. I just wanted to give him a glass of water. :(

    I am utterly baffled and disturbed by the idea that anyone is undecided between these two.
  • Haven't seen it.
    Sources I trust say Biden had a very bad night.

    As always, the question that really matters is does this affect how people will vote?

    AFZ
This discussion has been closed.