The fact that we are even having a conversation about Starmer's dad and whether he set up as a sole trader because he was an awkward bugger or because he was some kind of evil running dog of capitalism demonstrates that.
No, this wasn't the point at all. It was the implication that he was a lot more prosperous than Starmer made out because he "operated (his) own toolmaking company".
Sure. I know what the point was. I was making an additional point as it looked as if that's the direction we might be heading in. I have a butterfly mind.
I met a bloke the other day who boasted that he made far more money as a sole-trader than he ever did as an employee. I didn't.
The fact that we are even having a conversation about Starmer's dad and whether he set up as a sole trader because he was an awkward bugger or because he was some kind of evil running dog of capitalism demonstrates that.
No, this wasn't the point at all. It was the implication that he was a lot more prosperous than Starmer made out because he "operated (his) own toolmaking company".
Sure. I know what the point was. I was making an additional point as it looked as if that's the direction we might be heading in. I have a butterfly mind.
I met a bloke the other day who boasted that he made far more money as a sole-trader than he ever did as an employee. I didn't.
Nowhere near.
But I was the best boss I ever had.
I did it for over a year and matched my previous salary for 40% fewer hours. But ultimately went back to full time work for more security. Allowed a lot of time to spend with my young family though (around the existential dread every few weeks about where the work was coming from for the next mortgage payment!)
Starmer is an advocate by profession, and will present his client's case, good or bad, to the best of his ability. As a colleague once remarked, 'I must be good, I'm beginning to believe ssome of this myself.'
…lives an easy life on the profits … Works hard, takes home a bit more than the best paid employee but is in it for the joy of making tools and freedom to work as they want … hang out at the golf club rather than put in an honest days work.
It’s this kind of fetishisation of hard work and toil, with the associated disdain for “the easy life”, that means I could never be a true socialist.
Because, and I mean this with all my heart, FUCK work.
I may never get to be one of the ones who get to hang out at the golf club all day rather than pissing away my life toiling at shit I don’t care about or want to do, but if one side is offering me the slight possibility of being able to achieve that goal while the other side is saying nobody should ever be allowed to do it then it’s a no brainer as far as I’m concerned.
The key points as others noticed was the attitude to making money at the expense of others - here's what I said with that highlighted "most wouldn't object to that at all unless he'd starting underpaying staff and cutting safety to increase his financial returns and hang out at the golf club rather than put in an honest days work." The list of unacceptable behaviours could also include not providing adequate breaks during the day, annual leave, sick pay, contracts that don't provide security of employment, no support for training and skills development ... most of which would now be illegal in the UK (thanks to socialist governments and Unions). Everyone should be paid enough that for a reasonable number of hours work they have both the time (ie: they're not working, including travel time, hours that are so long that there's not time to do anything else) and money to be able to enjoy a round of golf (or other activity that's their personal interest) - if only the boss can afford to do that, and especially if they can afford to do that during the working day (ie: they're making lots of money without putting in the hours) then that's when there's a problem.
Sigh…seriously one can do better as a wage slave sometimes if prepared to put up with rubbish rather than sticking out one’ neck. It may have been that Old Man Starmer rather than being “ difficult”
I reckon he got fed up of being called Dave
would not put up with any shit from the boss. We’ve all been there & done that.
It's early days but the Exit polls tells us that the Conservatives will not cease to be a political force just yet
More's the pity. I've no love for Starmer but I was hoping he could at least do the country a service and destroy the tory party, particularly as he has another ready to take its place.
Well, the tories survive, albeit greatly diminished, but will be a somewhat reduced political force for a while.
No doubt Sunak will soon resign, and then there'll be Interesting Times as they choose a new leader.
Tories falling to third place, as many of us were praying for, would have resulted in imminent demise. However, their relative success - but which we mean avoiding total failure, barely, does not mean they are out of the woods. What happens next depends on how the civil war that has been simmering for a long time goes once it breaks out into open warfare next week.
It also depends on what Labour do in the next 2-3 years.
I'm not sure that the demise of the tories would have been entirely a Good Thing, as nature abhors a vacuum, and Reform are perhaps ready to fill it...
The next tory civil war will, as I say, be Interesting.
I'm not sure that the demise of the tories would have been entirely a Good Thing, as nature abhors a vacuum, and Reform are perhaps ready to fill it...
The next tory civil war will, as I say, be Interesting.
Hey if they become a party that won't disappear but can only win 100-150 seats, that's good enough for me!
Sigh…seriously one can do better as a wage slave sometimes if prepared to put up with rubbish rather than sticking out one’ neck. It may have been that Old Man Starmer rather than being “ difficult”
I reckon he got fed up of being called Dave
would not put up with any shit from the boss. We’ve all been there & done that.
A dignified few words from Mr Sunak before he left for the Palace, matching his words in the early hours when he spoke at his count.
Frankly the man deserved a better party.
A dignified few words from Mr Sunak before he left for the Palace, matching his words in the early hours when he spoke at his count.
Frankly the man deserved a better party.
I'm not sure that the demise of the tories would have been entirely a Good Thing, as nature abhors a vacuum, and Reform are perhaps ready to fill it...
Indeed. A classic case of be careful what you wish for, because you might just get it.
A dignified few words from Mr Sunak before he left for the Palace, matching his words in the early hours when he spoke at his count.
Frankly the man deserved a better party.
As a right wing Brexiteer there weren't a lot of options. That the available parties in his part of the political spectrum are awful ought to have made him rethink his views.
A dignified few words from Mr Sunak before he left for the Palace, matching his words in the early hours when he spoke at his count.
Frankly the man deserved a better party.
Maybe...but I agree that his parting speech was at least gracious (unlike those of his predecessors).
Without wishing to comment on Sunak's policies, and/or behaviour when in office as PM or whatever, I do think he's been, as they used to say, *well brought-up*. Hence, maybe, the polite and fairly gracious parting words?
and yet the lemmings punished him for the sins of his predecessors
You didn't think they were lemmings when they kept Labour out of power. When they kept Labour out of power you kept answering criticisms of the Tories or defences of Labour by saying that the facts were that Cameron had won the election or Johnson had won the election, as if the voters as a whole couldn't be wrong. But now they've voted Labour in according to you they're lemmings.
and yet the lemmings punished him for the sins of his predecessors
You didn't think they were lemmings when they kept Labour out of power. When they kept Labour out of power you kept answering criticisms of the Tories or defences of Labour by saying that the facts were that Cameron had won the election or Johnson had won the election, as if the voters as a whole couldn't be wrong. But now they've voted Labour in according to you they're lemmings.
In was an election in which a party won nearly two thirds of the seats with one third of the votes.
Lemming.
A person who follows the will of others, especially in a mass movement, and heads straight into a situation or circumstance that is dangerous, stupid, or destructive: These lemmings that eat up conspiracy theories are so blinded by lies, they don't even see the cliff they're about to plummet over.
Definition from Google and I mainly apply it to Reform voters who previously voted Conservative
My concern (as with the Republican Party here in the US) is whether the Tories would be replaced by something more far-right and extremist that would become the dominant party on the right.
There is a decent argument that the Conservative Party of 30y ago has already been replaced with something further to the right. Not as far right as Reform, but the Tory leadership under Thatcher and Major was a very different group of people than the leadership under Johnson and Sunak. Just because a party retains continuity of name doesn't mean it doesn't change, potentially quite radically.
There is a decent argument that the Conservative Party of 30y ago has already been replaced with something further to the right. Not as far right as Reform, but the Tory leadership under Thatcher and Major was a very different group of people than the leadership under Johnson and Sunak. Just because a party retains continuity of name doesn't mean it doesn't change, potentially quite radically.
There is a decent argument that the Conservative Party of 30y ago has already been replaced with something further to the right. Not as far right as Reform, but the Tory leadership under Thatcher and Major was a very different group of people than the leadership under Johnson and Sunak. Just because a party retains continuity of name doesn't mean it doesn't change, potentially quite radically.
I'm not convinced it's further to the right, but it has become substantially more venal, and substantially less competent.
There is a decent argument that the Conservative Party of 30y ago has already been replaced with something further to the right. Not as far right as Reform, but the Tory leadership under Thatcher and Major was a very different group of people than the leadership under Johnson and Sunak. Just because a party retains continuity of name doesn't mean it doesn't change, potentially quite radically.
To refer to something I mentioned over in Hell; I think the fundamental change is that the major tendency in the Tory party is now at war with the British state itself. The constant attacks on the Civil Service are a symptom of that, and it's further re-ified via the influence of the online right - as you see similar kinds of 'drain the swamp' vocabulary being deployed.
That's the common trait shared by both the Nat Con tendency and Reform - especially at the Farage end of the spectrum (JRM probably gets it directly from his father), they have very few ideas beyond wanting to smash everything up.
There is a decent argument that the Conservative Party of 30y ago has already been replaced with something further to the right. Not as far right as Reform, but the Tory leadership under Thatcher and Major was a very different group of people than the leadership under Johnson and Sunak. Just because a party retains continuity of name doesn't mean it doesn't change, potentially quite radically.
To refer to something I mentioned over in Hell; I think the fundamental change is that the major tendency in the Tory party is now at war with the British state itself. The constant attacks on the Civil Service are a symptom of that, and it's further re-ified via the influence of the online right - as you see similar kinds of 'drain the swamp' vocabulary being deployed.
That's the common trait shared by both the Nat Con tendency and Reform - especially at the Farage end of the spectrum (JRM probably gets it directly from his father), they have very few ideas beyond wanting to smash everything up.
I have nearly finished reading this book. I have found it fascinating - especially on the machinations around how each Tory leader was replaced and how the choice was made.
…lives an easy life on the profits … Works hard, takes home a bit more than the best paid employee but is in it for the joy of making tools and freedom to work as they want … hang out at the golf club rather than put in an honest days work.
It’s this kind of fetishisation of hard work and toil, with the associated disdain for “the easy life”, that means I could never be a true socialist.
Because, and I mean this with all my heart, FUCK work.
I may never get to be one of the ones who get to hang out at the golf club all day rather than pissing away my life toiling at shit I don’t care about or want to do, but if one side is offering me the slight possibility of being able to achieve that goal while the other side is saying nobody should ever be allowed to do it then it’s a no brainer as far as I’m concerned.
The key points as others noticed was the attitude to making money at the expense of others - here's what I said with that highlighted "most wouldn't object to that at all unless he'd starting underpaying staff and cutting safety to increase his financial returns and hang out at the golf club rather than put in an honest days work."
.. and most people, including Marvin are more likely to be in the flip side of this equation (previously he claimed it was a matter of values rather than possible personal advantage, which made marginally more sense).
There is a decent argument that the Conservative Party of 30y ago has already been replaced with something further to the right. Not as far right as Reform, but the Tory leadership under Thatcher and Major was a very different group of people than the leadership under Johnson and Sunak. Just because a party retains continuity of name doesn't mean it doesn't change, potentially quite radically.
To refer to something I mentioned over in Hell; I think the fundamental change is that the major tendency in the Tory party is now at war with the British state itself. The constant attacks on the Civil Service are a symptom of that, and it's further re-ified via the influence of the online right - as you see similar kinds of 'drain the swamp' vocabulary being deployed.
That's the common trait shared by both the Nat Con tendency and Reform - especially at the Farage end of the spectrum (JRM probably gets it directly from his father), they have very few ideas beyond wanting to smash everything up.
What was the motive for 'constant attacks' on the civil service?
There is a decent argument that the Conservative Party of 30y ago has already been replaced with something further to the right. Not as far right as Reform, but the Tory leadership under Thatcher and Major was a very different group of people than the leadership under Johnson and Sunak. Just because a party retains continuity of name doesn't mean it doesn't change, potentially quite radically.
To refer to something I mentioned over in Hell; I think the fundamental change is that the major tendency in the Tory party is now at war with the British state itself. The constant attacks on the Civil Service are a symptom of that, and it's further re-ified via the influence of the online right - as you see similar kinds of 'drain the swamp' vocabulary being deployed.
That's the common trait shared by both the Nat Con tendency and Reform - especially at the Farage end of the spectrum (JRM probably gets it directly from his father), they have very few ideas beyond wanting to smash everything up.
What was the motive for 'constant attacks' on the civil service?
Culture war bullshit to cover for lack of programme and delivery.
There is a decent argument that the Conservative Party of 30y ago has already been replaced with something further to the right. Not as far right as Reform, but the Tory leadership under Thatcher and Major was a very different group of people than the leadership under Johnson and Sunak. Just because a party retains continuity of name doesn't mean it doesn't change, potentially quite radically.
To refer to something I mentioned over in Hell; I think the fundamental change is that the major tendency in the Tory party is now at war with the British state itself. The constant attacks on the Civil Service are a symptom of that, and it's further re-ified via the influence of the online right - as you see similar kinds of 'drain the swamp' vocabulary being deployed.
That's the common trait shared by both the Nat Con tendency and Reform - especially at the Farage end of the spectrum (JRM probably gets it directly from his father), they have very few ideas beyond wanting to smash everything up.
What was the motive for 'constant attacks' on the civil service?
Culture war bullshit to cover for lack of programme and delivery.
Also, major groups in the Conservative Party believe that the state is inherently an obstacle to economic prosperity and therefore start with a bias against anyone employed by the state (sometimes with exceptions for law enforcement and the army but sometimes even then).
There is a decent argument that the Conservative Party of 30y ago has already been replaced with something further to the right. Not as far right as Reform, but the Tory leadership under Thatcher and Major was a very different group of people than the leadership under Johnson and Sunak. Just because a party retains continuity of name doesn't mean it doesn't change, potentially quite radically.
To refer to something I mentioned over in Hell; I think the fundamental change is that the major tendency in the Tory party is now at war with the British state itself. The constant attacks on the Civil Service are a symptom of that, and it's further re-ified via the influence of the online right - as you see similar kinds of 'drain the swamp' vocabulary being deployed.
That's the common trait shared by both the Nat Con tendency and Reform - especially at the Farage end of the spectrum (JRM probably gets it directly from his father), they have very few ideas beyond wanting to smash everything up.
What was the motive for 'constant attacks' on the civil service?
Culture war bullshit to cover for lack of programme and delivery.
There is a decent argument that the Conservative Party of 30y ago has already been replaced with something further to the right. Not as far right as Reform, but the Tory leadership under Thatcher and Major was a very different group of people than the leadership under Johnson and Sunak. Just because a party retains continuity of name doesn't mean it doesn't change, potentially quite radically.
To refer to something I mentioned over in Hell; I think the fundamental change is that the major tendency in the Tory party is now at war with the British state itself. The constant attacks on the Civil Service are a symptom of that, and it's further re-ified via the influence of the online right - as you see similar kinds of 'drain the swamp' vocabulary being deployed.
That's the common trait shared by both the Nat Con tendency and Reform - especially at the Farage end of the spectrum (JRM probably gets it directly from his father), they have very few ideas beyond wanting to smash everything up.
What was the motive for 'constant attacks' on the civil service?
Culture war bullshit to cover for lack of programme and delivery.
There is a decent argument that the Conservative Party of 30y ago has already been replaced with something further to the right. Not as far right as Reform, but the Tory leadership under Thatcher and Major was a very different group of people than the leadership under Johnson and Sunak. Just because a party retains continuity of name doesn't mean it doesn't change, potentially quite radically.
To refer to something I mentioned over in Hell; I think the fundamental change is that the major tendency in the Tory party is now at war with the British state itself. The constant attacks on the Civil Service are a symptom of that, and it's further re-ified via the influence of the online right - as you see similar kinds of 'drain the swamp' vocabulary being deployed.
That's the common trait shared by both the Nat Con tendency and Reform - especially at the Farage end of the spectrum (JRM probably gets it directly from his father), they have very few ideas beyond wanting to smash everything up.
What was the motive for 'constant attacks' on the civil service?
Culture war bullshit to cover for lack of programme and delivery.
Who is responsible for the delivery ?
According to Mr Sunak, he was.
Indeed.
O! to think of all the good things he was going to deliver to the hard-working British people, and of which we are now to be deprived for ever.
There is a decent argument that the Conservative Party of 30y ago has already been replaced with something further to the right. Not as far right as Reform, but the Tory leadership under Thatcher and Major was a very different group of people than the leadership under Johnson and Sunak. Just because a party retains continuity of name doesn't mean it doesn't change, potentially quite radically.
To refer to something I mentioned over in Hell; I think the fundamental change is that the major tendency in the Tory party is now at war with the British state itself. The constant attacks on the Civil Service are a symptom of that, and it's further re-ified via the influence of the online right - as you see similar kinds of 'drain the swamp' vocabulary being deployed.
That's the common trait shared by both the Nat Con tendency and Reform - especially at the Farage end of the spectrum (JRM probably gets it directly from his father), they have very few ideas beyond wanting to smash everything up.
What was the motive for 'constant attacks' on the civil service?
Culture war bullshit to cover for lack of programme and delivery.
Who is responsible for the delivery ?
The modern British Civil Service has been around since the 1850s. One of its prime movers went on to be a Conservative Chancellor. The Tory Party have been in charge for easily 2/3rds of the time since then, they have fundamentally shaped the entire British State to their purposes.
The reason they can no longer 'deliver' is that they've finally finished what Thatcher started and driven out the old Wet tendency (which they got from the Liberal Party) who knew out to use the levers of power, in favour of the current tendency who just want to break the state. Osborne started it, and the UK is well into the era of feeling the effects of his very short term accounting.
No, it was the deep state which should have delivered, and let Mr Sunak and really, all of us, down. <sarcasm>
Oh Jesus don’t tell me that that whole conspiracy thing about the “deep state” is over there now too?
Yes, but it's not clear how much of it is for domestic consumption and how much is simply playing into American far right narratives to get in on the very lucrative grift available in the US.
Comments
Precisely. Not just socialists either, the Bible is pretty down on those with "prosperous ease".
Sure. I know what the point was. I was making an additional point as it looked as if that's the direction we might be heading in. I have a butterfly mind.
I met a bloke the other day who boasted that he made far more money as a sole-trader than he ever did as an employee. I didn't.
Nowhere near.
But I was the best boss I ever had.
I did it for over a year and matched my previous salary for 40% fewer hours. But ultimately went back to full time work for more security. Allowed a lot of time to spend with my young family though (around the existential dread every few weeks about where the work was coming from for the next mortgage payment!)
More's the pity. I've no love for Starmer but I was hoping he could at least do the country a service and destroy the tory party, particularly as he has another ready to take its place.
No doubt Sunak will soon resign, and then there'll be Interesting Times as they choose a new leader.
Tories falling to third place, as many of us were praying for, would have resulted in imminent demise. However, their relative success - but which we mean avoiding total failure, barely, does not mean they are out of the woods. What happens next depends on how the civil war that has been simmering for a long time goes once it breaks out into open warfare next week.
It also depends on what Labour do in the next 2-3 years.
I remain cautiously optimistic.
AFZ
I'm not sure that the demise of the tories would have been entirely a Good Thing, as nature abhors a vacuum, and Reform are perhaps ready to fill it...
The next tory civil war will, as I say, be Interesting.
Hey if they become a party that won't disappear but can only win 100-150 seats, that's good enough for me!
AFZ
Fixed quoting code. BroJames, Purgatory Host
Frankly the man deserved a better party.
Yes. Or he should have chosen a better party.
Indeed. A classic case of be careful what you wish for, because you might just get it.
As a right wing Brexiteer there weren't a lot of options. That the available parties in his part of the political spectrum are awful ought to have made him rethink his views.
Maybe...but I agree that his parting speech was at least gracious (unlike those of his predecessors).
Then I’ll delete it for you.
Doublethink, Admin
Thanks
and yet the lemmings punished him for the sins of his predecessors
Given that "the lemmings" the tories lost went to Reform it's entirely possible he lost them for the "sin" of not being white.
In was an election in which a party won nearly two thirds of the seats with one third of the votes.
Lemming.
A person who follows the will of others, especially in a mass movement, and heads straight into a situation or circumstance that is dangerous, stupid, or destructive: These lemmings that eat up conspiracy theories are so blinded by lies, they don't even see the cliff they're about to plummet over.
Definition from Google and I mainly apply it to Reform voters who previously voted Conservative
Reform may have gained only 5 MPs, but the size of their share of the vote is alarmingly large.
I see no reason to be alarmed by the size of the vote in any democratic UK election. It's far better than a Wetherspoons Putsch
Yes, I think you're correct.
I'm not convinced it's further to the right, but it has become substantially more venal, and substantially less competent.
To refer to something I mentioned over in Hell; I think the fundamental change is that the major tendency in the Tory party is now at war with the British state itself. The constant attacks on the Civil Service are a symptom of that, and it's further re-ified via the influence of the online right - as you see similar kinds of 'drain the swamp' vocabulary being deployed.
That's the common trait shared by both the Nat Con tendency and Reform - especially at the Farage end of the spectrum (JRM probably gets it directly from his father), they have very few ideas beyond wanting to smash everything up.
Yikes, and here too in the US. :eek:
.. and most people, including Marvin are more likely to be in the flip side of this equation (previously he claimed it was a matter of values rather than possible personal advantage, which made marginally more sense).
What was the motive for 'constant attacks' on the civil service?
Culture war bullshit to cover for lack of programme and delivery.
100% this.
According to Mr Sunak, he was.
Indeed.
O! to think of all the good things he was going to deliver to the hard-working British people, and of which we are now to be deprived for ever.
The modern British Civil Service has been around since the 1850s. One of its prime movers went on to be a Conservative Chancellor. The Tory Party have been in charge for easily 2/3rds of the time since then, they have fundamentally shaped the entire British State to their purposes.
The reason they can no longer 'deliver' is that they've finally finished what Thatcher started and driven out the old Wet tendency (which they got from the Liberal Party) who knew out to use the levers of power, in favour of the current tendency who just want to break the state. Osborne started it, and the UK is well into the era of feeling the effects of his very short term accounting.
Oh Jesus don’t tell me that that whole conspiracy thing about the “deep state” is over there now too?
Yes, indeed, mainly among the right wing. So the Tory govt failed because of sabotage by the deep state.
Yes, but it's not clear how much of it is for domestic consumption and how much is simply playing into American far right narratives to get in on the very lucrative grift available in the US.