Welcome, Leo XIV

BelisariusBelisarius Admin Emeritus
U-S-A! U-S-A!

But seriously, quite a historical moment.
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Comments

  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    People were waving American flags on the plaza -- who takes their national flag with them to such an excursion?!?
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    You know exactly who, @Ruth.
  • HedgehogHedgehog Shipmate
    Rather a lot, apparently. I saw flags for Ireland, Portugal, Mexico and a few places I am not even sure of.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    I’m sure some enterprising soul is selling flags near St. Peter’s Square.

  • HedgehogHedgehog Shipmate
    I did have to field a question as to Leo XIV, namely whether popes are like high-rise buildings: Do they skip 13?

    In fact the questioner thought it highly likely that they would jump from Leo XII to Leo XIV, because who would choose XIII? I did provide them with a quick potted history of Leo XIII including, of course, his shilling for a cocaine-infused wine.

  • BelisariusBelisarius Admin Emeritus
    edited May 8
    There was an Iraqi flag when Pope Francis was elected.
  • I expect those of us who are not Roman Catholics will, however, also wish Leo XIV well as he takes on what must be one of the most demanding and difficult tasks in the world.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    Yea and amen to that!
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Leo is a naturalized Peruvian Citizen.

    I have been listening off and on to several reports about Leo. Did you hear that the house he grew up in in Chicago cost his parents $2.00 a month? His father was French. His mother was Italian. Is it any surprise he is a polyglot?

    Theologically, I think he will tend to be a conservative pope. He has been critical of Peru wanting to teach its students gender education. On the other hand, he has been very critical of Trump's immigration policies.

    Mrs Gramps tells me Leo's mother was a librarian. Mrs Gramps is also a librarian.

    But I know I am getting old when Leo is the first Pope that is younger than me.
  • Celtic KnotweedCeltic Knotweed Shipmate
    edited May 9
    We listened to the presentation live via BBC World Service on our way to ring for VE Day, and I think they mentioned his age then.

    This morning, sparked by @Gramps49's comment above, I double-checked. This is the first pope who is only old enough to be my father (just!), and not my grandfather.

    I wish him good luck and good health; he may need both.
  • Robertus LRobertus L Shipmate
    Hedgehog wrote: »
    I did have to field a question as to Leo XIV, namely whether popes are like high-rise buildings: Do they skip 13?

    In fact the questioner thought it highly likely that they would jump from Leo XII to Leo XIV, because who would choose XIII? I did provide them with a quick potted history of Leo XIII including, of course, his shilling for a cocaine-infused wine.

    It occurs to me that here and else where, we often refer to popes by their initials and number, so we'd all know who JP II and B XVI, the current pope presents a bit of a problem as LXIV, which makes him 64
  • SandemaniacSandemaniac Shipmate
    Robertus L wrote: »
    Hedgehog wrote: »
    I did have to field a question as to Leo XIV, namely whether popes are like high-rise buildings: Do they skip 13?

    In fact the questioner thought it highly likely that they would jump from Leo XII to Leo XIV, because who would choose XIII? I did provide them with a quick potted history of Leo XIII including, of course, his shilling for a cocaine-infused wine.

    It occurs to me that here and else where, we often refer to popes by their initials and number, so we'd all know who JP II and B XVI, the current pope presents a bit of a problem as LXIV, which makes him 64

    Will you still need him, will you still feed him, when he's LXIV?
  • HedgehogHedgehog Shipmate
    He is originally from Chicago. Although the issue is not completely free of doubt, it looks like he is a White Sox fan. The White Sox celebrated his election by losing 10-0 to Kansas City.

    Still, it is comforting to know Leo XIV has experience in supporting hopeless causes.
  • kingsfoldkingsfold Shipmate
    edited May 9
    Robertus L wrote: »

    It occurs to me that here and else where, we often refer to popes by their initials and number, so we'd all know who JP II and B XVI, the current pope presents a bit of a problem as LXIV, which makes him 64

    Will you still need him, will you still feed him, when he's LXIV?

    Get your coat Sanders! :mrgreen:
  • SandemaniacSandemaniac Shipmate
    kingsfold wrote: »
    Robertus L wrote: »

    It occurs to me that here and else where, we often refer to popes by their initials and number, so we'd all know who JP II and B XVI, the current pope presents a bit of a problem as LXIV, which makes him 64

    Will you still need him, will you still feed him, when he's LXIV?

    Get your coat Sanders! :mrgreen:

    You will not be surprised to hear that my coat is on permanent standby.
  • kingsfold wrote: »
    Robertus L wrote: »

    It occurs to me that here and else where, we often refer to popes by their initials and number, so we'd all know who JP II and B XVI, the current pope presents a bit of a problem as LXIV, which makes him 64

    Will you still need him, will you still feed him, when he's LXIV?

    Get your coat Sanders! :mrgreen:

    You will not be surprised to hear that my coat is on permanent standby.

    And the door is always open...
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Correction to Leo's parentage. Leo's father was French Italian. Worked as an educator. Leo's mother was Spanish. Was a librarian. Also, the classic church lady. Attended mass every day. Altar Guild regular.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Read a piece today on the Pope's Louisiana/Haitian forebears. Interestingly in birth records they slip in and out of 'white', 'black', 'mulatto'.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Was watching clips of local Chicago TV news people interviewing the new pope's friends and family, and one bit of filler cracked me up -- something like "for the first time in 2000 years, an American has been elected pope." Like they should have picked an American in the middle ages, right? :smiley:
  • RockyRogerRockyRoger Shipmate
    Well, they had at those times many good native chiefs with names like 'Running Bull'. Why not'Papal Bull'?

    I'll also get my coat ......
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    From my Reformation Historian Friend, Tim Wengert, today:
    Just in case you're wondering, it isn't that the news media (and Google AI) can't count, especially sad given that the bishop of Rome, Leo XIV, has a degree in mathematics. Some say he is the first Augustinian pope; others say the sixth. The problem is that there are two different kinds of Augustinians! The Augustinian Canons are groups of priests (often associated with a cathedral--the central congregation of a bishop), who live a monastic life under the rule of St. Augustine as priests. But Augustinian Hermits (or: friars), that is members of the "Order of Hermits of Saint Augustine" (OESA) were an order that traced its rule of communal living to St. Augustine, bishop of Hippo, but first became an order of friars (similar to the Dominicans and Franciscans) in 1243. Martin Luther was a member of the Augustinian Order. Because so many of his brothers across northern Europe became supporters of the Reformation, the order almost died out in the sixteenth century. But it survived, and Villanova University in the USA was founded by Augustinians, where a young Robert Prevost, who became Leo XIV, went to school and later joined that order. He is the first member of his order (OESA) to become pope, although there were other Augustinian Canons who were elected in the past. If you know someone from the news media or Mr. Google AI, please let them know.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Ruth wrote: »
    Was watching clips of local Chicago TV news people interviewing the new pope's friends and family, and one bit of filler cracked me up -- something like "for the first time in 2000 years, an American has been elected pope." Like they should have picked an American in the middle ages, right? :smiley:
    Some of our media sources have been pointing out the obvious, and true, fact that Leo is not the first American pope, Francis was.

  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Enoch wrote: »
    Ruth wrote: »
    Was watching clips of local Chicago TV news people interviewing the new pope's friends and family, and one bit of filler cracked me up -- something like "for the first time in 2000 years, an American has been elected pope." Like they should have picked an American in the middle ages, right? :smiley:
    Some of our media sources have been pointing out the obvious, and true, fact that Leo is not the first American pope, Francis was.
    That depends on how “American” is being used. As pointed out in the Conclave thread, and as confusing as it may be at times or as problematic is some may find it, “American” is the standard demonym in English for someone from the United States, and has been for centuries. There is nothing incorrect about referring to Leo as “the first American pope,” and certainly not when used by an American news station.

    I would expect to hear Francis referred to as “the first pope from the Americas,” or the like.

  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited May 11
    I assume he is also the first Peruvian.pope - does he still have US citizenship, I can’t remember remember if it possible to hold dual citizenship with the US as an adult?
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    I assume he is also the first Peruvian.pope - does he still have US citizenship, I can’t remember remember if it possible to hold dual citizenship with the US as an adult?
    Yes, he does still have US citizenship. And it is possible for him to keep that US citizenship even while head of state of another country.


  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Enoch wrote: »
    Ruth wrote: »
    Was watching clips of local Chicago TV news people interviewing the new pope's friends and family, and one bit of filler cracked me up -- something like "for the first time in 2000 years, an American has been elected pope." Like they should have picked an American in the middle ages, right? :smiley:
    Some of our media sources have been pointing out the obvious, and true, fact that Leo is not the first American pope, Francis was.

    This is so tiresome. You know very well I and the new pope are Americans in the sense of being United States citizens, while Francis was not.
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    Does anyone call Argentinian people American? Only after a few drinks.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    People may not habitually call Argentinians 'Americans' but they and others are entitled to resent the casual assumption that citizens of the USA make that they can appropriate the entirety of two continents to describe themselves. That is particularly so when the US President is making irredentist claims on two other parts of North America, has purported to rename a part of the world's oceans and is bullying adjoining states to the south.

    Pope Leo is a citizen, as I understand it, of the USA, Peru, and presumably, the Vatican. He is the first person from the USA or Peru to become Pope. He is not the first person from the Americas or the Western Hemisphere. That is the point the media sources were making and I agree with them.

    One is careful not include Scotland or Wales within the casual use of England or English. It behoves citizens of the USA to remember that they should be more sensitive about a their usage that assumes Canada, Greenland, Mexico, Argentina Peru and other points north or south are included in the way they refer to themselves.

  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Enoch wrote: »
    People may not habitually call Argentinians 'Americans' but they and others are entitled to resent the casual assumption that citizens of the USA make that they can appropriate the entirety of two continents to describe themselves.
    As I said, I recognize that American as the standard demonym in English for the US can be confusing or problematic. That’s always going to be the case when words have more than one meaning, especially when one meaning is in essence a subset of another meaning. However, that ship sailed many centuries ago.

    And for the record, the people of the US didn’t casually assume they can appropriate the entirety of two continents to describe themselves. It was the British who by the mid-to-late 17th Century were using America to refer to North American British colonies only, and American to refer to English-speaking residents of those colonies.

    Enoch wrote: »
    It behoves citizens of the USA to remember that they should be more sensitive about a their usage that assumes Canada, Greenland, Mexico, Argentina Peru and other points north or south are included in the way they refer to themselves.
    Thank you for the reprimand. I assume you’ll also be taking this up with the French, the Italians, the Germans, the Dutch, the Russians, the Japanese, Arabic and Hindi speakers, and all the others whose languages use cognates of American as the demonym for the US. You might take it up with the OED while you’re at it.

    @Ruth is right; it really is tiresome.


  • MarsupialMarsupial Shipmate
    The use of “American” as a demonym for the United States is also a longstanding Canadian usage. The OED tells me the same is true of “Americano” in Spanish and Portuguese which should cover off the vast majority of everyone else who lives in the Americas. Hopefully that is good enough for the rest of the world.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    It is worth noting that alternative names like USian are no better because, of course, Mexico is also "United States".
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    It is worth noting that alternative names like USian are no better because, of course, Mexico is also "United States".

    Mexico is officially Estados Unidos Mexicanos, abbreviated EU in print headlines when I was first learning Spanish. My country is Estados Unidos de América, EE.UU.
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    It behoves citizens of the USA to remember that they should be more sensitive about a their usage that assumes Canada, Greenland, Mexico, Argentina Peru and other points north or south are included in the way they refer to themselves.
    Thank you for the reprimand. I assume you’ll also be taking this up with the French, the Italians, the Germans, the Dutch, the Russians, the Japanese, Arabic and Hindi speakers, and all the others whose languages use cognates of American as the demonym for the US. You might take it up with the OED while you’re at it.

    When Italians in the crowd at St. Peter's the other day were saying "Americano?!?" in puzzled voices, no one thought they were talking about both American continents.

    You're being deliberately rude, @Enoch. You are not in a position to lecture Americans, or anyone else, about sensitivity. Keep it up and I'll see you in Hell.
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    Arguments about usage really. Certainly, in my dialect, "American" refers to the US. If Argentina won the World Cup, it would be bizarre to talk of an American triumph. Well, usage is king, is it not. I'm not sure why usage is challenged so much.
  • I suspect it is challenged when (as in this instance) it offends.
  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host
    Just a little, gentle host post here; please remember that this is Heaven, and also, don't make statements claiming that all citizens of any country think or behave in a certain way.

    jedijudy
    Heaven Host.
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    I was sent a video yesterday, by a RC person I know well, that took great pains to explain that:
    -- Francis had never *really* been Pope, and that Benedict continued to execute his Papal office right up to his death
    -- All of the Cardinals that Pope Francis elevated were mere proxies for the 'real' cardinals who worked with Benedict behind the scenes
    -- Pope Leo's recent election is invalid because it counted votes by Francis' proxy cardinals, and not Benedict's real cardinals
    -- The RCC still has no Pope, and that there is a civil war within the Vatican between to two groups of cardinals
    -- The religion that Francis practiced was a new, anti-Catholic religion sanctioned by the DAVOS Group

    So, you know... exciting times.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    There's always a Sedevacantist.
  • HedgehogHedgehog Shipmate
    Did that RC person take a principled stand about that woke Heliocentric theory?
  • stonespringstonespring Shipmate
    In a lot of Spanish-speaking Latin America, “estadounidense” is the formal term for someone or something from the US, and “gringo”, “yanqui”, or some other informal term (none of which are necessarily pejorative, depending on the context) is used in speech when someone doesn’t want to go through the trouble of enunciating “estadounidense”. I’m sure there are exceptions where, in parts of Spanish-speaking Latin America, people are comfortable using “americanos” to refer to what English speakers call “Americans”, but I haven’t encountered them among the Cubans, Peruvians, Ecuadorians, and Mexicans I know. I don’t know what terminology is used by Portuguese speakers in Brazil.

    The noun “América” is frequently used in Spanish to refer to all the Americas, so there is some potential for confusion is someone calls the US anything other the EEUU (or Estados Unidos, at least outside of Mexico (formally called Estados Unidos Mexicanos)).

    What we should really be discussing is whether or not is appropriate to call Pope Francis Argentinian instead of Argentine :wink: .
  • stonespringstonespring Shipmate
    I forgot to add that my Cuban father and some other Latin American immigrants to the US that I knew called Anglophone white US citizens “Americanos”, to differentiate them from “Latinos/Hispanos”, as well as from any non-Latino, US citizen or not, who isn’t white.

    I’ve only heard this use of “Americano” inside the United States (I’ve never heard it among my half-siblings’ families in Peru and Ecuador), and only among Latin American immigrants to the US and not from their children or grandchildren. I think it is a racial shorthand to refer to what most Anglophone Americans mean when they say “white” (which itself, for them, is shorthand for “white non-Hispanic”, not that it should be used that way).

    Of course this is offensive and I corrected my dad over and over again, but he kept talking that way.
  • MarsupialMarsupial Shipmate
    In a lot of Spanish-speaking Latin America, “estadounidense” is the formal term for someone or something from the US, and “gringo”, “yanqui”, or some other informal term (none of which are necessarily pejorative, depending on the context) is used in speech when someone doesn’t want to go through the trouble of enunciating “estadounidense”. I’m sure there are exceptions where, in parts of Spanish-speaking Latin America, people are comfortable using “americanos” to refer to what English speakers call “Americans”, but I haven’t encountered them among the Cubans, Peruvians, Ecuadorians, and Mexicans I know. I don’t know what terminology is used by Portuguese speakers in Brazil.

    The noun “América” is frequently used in Spanish to refer to all the Americas, so there is some potential for confusion is someone calls the US anything other the EEUU (or Estados Unidos, at least outside of Mexico (formally called Estados Unidos Mexicanos)).

    What we should really be discussing is whether or not is appropriate to call Pope Francis Argentinian instead of Argentine :wink: .

    Thanks for the clarification on that point.

    As an aside “America” as a noun is uncommon in Canadian English - it would be either “the Americas” (for the continents) or “the United States” (or an abbreviation thereof) for the country.
  • RockyRogerRockyRoger Shipmate
    edited May 13
    The_Riv wrote: »
    I was sent a video yesterday, by a RC person I know well, that took great pains to explain that:
    -- Francis had never *really* been Pope, and that Benedict continued to execute his Papal office right up to his death
    -- All of the Cardinals that Pope Francis elevated were mere proxies for the 'real' cardinals who worked with Benedict behind the scenes
    -- Pope Leo's recent election is invalid because it counted votes by Francis' proxy cardinals, and not Benedict's real cardinals
    -- The RCC still has no Pope, and that there is a civil war within the Vatican between to two groups of cardinals
    -- The religion that Francis practiced was a new, anti-Catholic religion sanctioned by the DAVOS Group

    So, you know... exciting times.

    Dear God, is there no limit to the lunacy some people will believe?

    PS: could folk please, pretty please, stop arguing about words on this thread? It really is, like really, tiresome!
  • EigonEigon Shipmate
    The new girl at work has a Polish Catholic auntie (who is teaching her Polish), and she got an email from the auntie with what amounted to a PowerPoint presentation on all the Cardinals who were candidates to be Pope, in Polish. Polish Auntie has some odd views, but none of them seem to include Pope Francis not really being the Pope.
  • HedgehogHedgehog Shipmate
    On a more heavenly tangent, I did not know this until after Francis' death, but a cartoonist named Patrick Marrin had an occasional comic strip entitled "Francis." He has announced that he will continue with the image of Leo XIV in the tentatively titled "The Leo Chronicles."

    "Francis" appeared in the National Catholic Reporter and it looks like you can sample it here.

    It also appears on the GoComics website, but you probably will not be able to access the archives there without paying GoComics some money.
  • My late Auntie S (obit 2023) was a devout Catholic, originally from Kerala, but had what might in some RC circles be regarded as advanced or liberal views. She had no time at all for John Paul II or Benedict XVI, (*old fashioned reactionaries*) but was greatly encouraged when Francis became Pope.

    I don't know what she would have thought of Leo XIV, of course, but I think she would have been cautiously optimistic...
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    There's always a Sedevacantist.
    I think this person was satisfied with Benedict as Pope.

    Hedgehog wrote: »
    Did that RC person take a principled stand about that woke Heliocentric theory?
    That person has shared repeatedly that they are a young earth Creationist, so to me the scandal of the sun is secondary.

  • RockyRogerRockyRoger Shipmate
    The_Riv wrote: »
    There's always a Sedevacantist.
    I think this person was satisfied with Benedict as Pope.

    Hedgehog wrote: »
    Did that RC person take a principled stand about that woke Heliocentric theory?
    That person has shared repeatedly that they are a young earth Creationist, so to me the scandal of the sun is secondary.

    Ah, bonkers!
  • betjemaniacbetjemaniac Shipmate
    My late Auntie S (obit 2023) was a devout Catholic, originally from Kerala, but had what might in some RC circles be regarded as advanced or liberal views. She had no time at all for John Paul II or Benedict XVI, (*old fashioned reactionaries*) but was greatly encouraged when Francis became Pope.

    I don't know what she would have thought of Leo XIV, of course, but I think she would have been cautiously optimistic...

    Interesting article in the Spectator this week (yes, I know) which posits Vatican ‘liberals’ having a fit of the vapours over the last week that they’ve accidentally elected a Latin loving closet-traditionalist.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Too early to read the runes, but fingers crossed.
  • Alan29 wrote: »
    Too early to read the runes, but fingers crossed.

    Yes, and I think that's what my Auntie S would say, were she still in this Vale of Tears...
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