I read somewhere that the Southern's conservatism was partly due to a policy of providing as many seats as possible, given that some runs were quite long, and also to the need to get people in and out of the trains as quickly as possible - hence the multiplicity of slam-doors and six-a-side compartments.
The backs of the bench seats indicated that they were intended for five passengers seated on each side. At peak hours it was normal for each compartment to have 24 passengers: six seated on each side and 12 standing, holding on to the luggage racks.
I remember travelling from Liverpool Street to Saxmundham on the famous 4.50pm train - at that time (1972) the only through train to Lowestoft. It was formed of Mk1 corridor compartment stock; when I got in it was fairly empty so I pulled down the arm-rests which were set for 3-a-side. As the train filled up I was told that that wouldn't be sustainable, and so it proved: up went the arm-rests so we could sit 4-a-side. I don't remember any standing, and of course we lost people along the way. I think this train may have acted at a relief to the 5pm "East Anglian" which probably ran fast to Ipswich.
I read somewhere that the Southern's conservatism was partly due to a policy of providing as many seats as possible, given that some runs were quite long, and also to the need to get people in and out of the trains as quickly as possible - hence the multiplicity of slam-doors and six-a-side compartments.
The backs of the bench seats indicated that they were intended for five passengers seated on each side. At peak hours it was normal for each compartment to have 24 passengers: six seated on each side and 12 standing, holding on to the luggage racks.
IIRC, only the earlier units were *supposed* to seat 5-a-side. As you say, 6-a-side became the norm, with the 12 standees. The atmosphere in a smoking compartment in such conditions was less than salubrious...
For a time, I commuted to London on a train usually composed of the 4EPB units. I was a heavy smoker in those days, so know whereof I speak as to the state of the smoking compartments...
In addition, Tornado has been out and about again, namely on the Settle to Carlisle line, on 31 May 2025. Plenty of videos to be found for those who are looking.
I haven't watched all of it, but the Southampton bus at 3:45 takes me straight back to my student days (although I never used route 14: 4, 6, 11, 11A and 15 were our local ones).
There are lots of bus rally videos, too, which remind me (a) how good some of the former liveries were, and (b) how old I am - everything post-1970 looks *modern*...
When I first went to live in Lisbon (1978), some of the buses were 30-year old AECs ... and some of the trams dated back to 1906 (and ran into the 1990s!).
The bus fleet was rapidly modernising; but the tram system was planned to be phased out, hence no new investment in it.
I think Lisbon does have some modern trams, on the long line along the riverside, and the Graca circle still operates TBTG.
Southdown's coaches a short while pre-NBC were two-tone green, not (IMHO) all that inspiring a livery, but in the 50s and 60s had cream added to the mix, as seen on the coach in the video - much nicer!
The Graca circle does indeed still circulate - although it didn't do the complete route when we were there last year, much to our confusion when trying to hunt it down! https://www.carris.pt/en/travel/carreiras/12e/
A propos of nothing in particular really (though connected to my suggestion that warwells/warflats were the oldest stock still in use on the network now), I’ve been wondering what the oldest items (not buildings, structures, or station clocks) still in use on the network are.
I know there are still lots of pre-nationalisation rail chairs in sidings, and pre-1923 GWR benches - Stourbridge Junction still had/has some Victorian ones in one of the waiting rooms IIRC.
Cradley Heath in 1987/8, dying days of Edmondson tickets, was apparently still issuing some GWR tickets for less common journeys!
But now, my assumption is it’s going to be on the Western Region as was, in the areas that are still semaphore signalled. I wonder if there’s any pre-1900 block equipment or similar still quietly doing its job in a signal box somewhere? That would be where I’d put my money for ‘oldest bit of kit still in use’
I don't know. The "Long Drag" is northbound, of course. You might want to think which direction the sun is coming from when you travel - I'd suggest that mid- to late-afternoon is the best time to travel (if the sun is out!).
It's not a line I've ever travelled on, either, I'm sorry to say. AIUI, there is a long and quite scenic descent into Carlisle - at the northern end - whereas the first part of the northbound trip takes in the environs of Leeds...a fine city, no doubt...
As regards old equipment, I think signalling items are probably the most common still in use. Old sidings seem to be a thing of the past, at least around here, but maybe some pre-grouping chairs are still to be found amongst the weeds.
I'm not sure if they're still there, but the freight-only line from Hoo Junction to Grain Thamesport had at least two *traditional* semaphore signals at the far end. A fixed (I think) distant, constructed in true Southern waste-not-want-not style from bits of old rail, on the approach to the former Grain terminus, and a starter signal to allow trains out of the port area, and across the main road. The crossing-keeper's little building (still painted in Southern green and cream!) may also still survive, but I haven't been out that way for some years.
The branch to Grain has a convoluted history. Closed to passengers since 1961, it once had at least six interesting twigs, although only one of them (the short-lived Allhallows branch) was open to passenger traffic.
Thanks for your intervention @Wesley J .
I’ll be starting from Skipton early in the day, possibly not hanging around in Carlisle as I’d prefer to have more time in back in Skipton - narrowboats on the canal and a castle to see.
I could go to Carlisle in the morning, possibly returning via Cornforth and Lancaster for a change of scenery, or vice versa.
A propos of nothing in particular really (though connected to my suggestion that warwells/warflats were the oldest stock still in use on the network now), I’ve been wondering what the oldest items (not buildings, structures, or station clocks) still in use on the network are.
I know there are still lots of pre-nationalisation rail chairs in sidings, and pre-1923 GWR benches - Stourbridge Junction still had/has some Victorian ones in one of the waiting rooms IIRC.
Cradley Heath in 1987/8, dying days of Edmondson tickets, was apparently still issuing some GWR tickets for less common journeys!
But now, my assumption is it’s going to be on the Western Region as was, in the areas that are still semaphore signalled. I wonder if there’s any pre-1900 block equipment or similar still quietly doing its job in a signal box somewhere? That would be where I’d put my money for ‘oldest bit of kit still in use’
Any other suggestions?
The oldest lever frame in use on Network Rail appears to be the 1875 example at Monk's Siding signal box, Warrington, which is a mere 150 years old now:
Thanks for your intervention @Wesley J .
I’ll be starting from Skipton early in the day, possibly not hanging around in Carlisle as I’d prefer to have more time in back in Skipton - narrowboats on the canal and a castle to see.
I could go to Carlisle in the morning, possibly returning via Cornforth and Lancaster for a change of scenery, or vice versa.
Starting from Skipton ensures that you get the best of the scenery!
A return via Carnforth and Lancaster is worth doing, too. I have fond memories of that part of Lancashire - a more attractive part of the county than one might at first suppose.
I had a ride on the double-decker train, not long before the sets were withdrawn. Very claustrophobic, but ingenious...
Platforms were certainly lengthened for the Kent Coast electrification, but a fair number of suburban stations were dealt with earlier. The 10-coach solution worked, despite difficulties in some places.
All the electric passenger trains in the Sydney area (extending approximately 150 km north, south, south-west and south) are double-deck multiple units. I think all are now air-conditioned. Slight variations between those for suburban and outer suburban services, chiefly to allow more seats for the suburban sets. There are still a few outer services provided by diesel units, and given the low demand in those areas, expensive wiring will not be installed. I'd certainly not call them claustrophobic.
I had a ride on the double-decker train, not long before the sets were withdrawn. Very claustrophobic, but ingenious...
Platforms were certainly lengthened for the Kent Coast electrification, but a fair number of suburban stations were dealt with earlier. The 10-coach solution worked, despite difficulties in some places.
All the electric passenger trains in the Sydney area (extending approximately 150 km north, south, south-west and south) are double-deck multiple units. I think all are now air-conditioned. Slight variations between those for suburban and outer suburban services, chiefly to allow more seats for the suburban sets. There are still a few outer services provided by diesel units, and given the low demand in those areas, expensive wiring will not be installed. I'd certainly not call them claustrophobic.
Apples and oranges though - now build some double decker stock for the Victorian English loading gauge… no opening windows on the upper compartments, no air conditioning, pressure ventilation that doesn’t work, etc.
Yes, double-deckers are quite common outside Britain, often with steps down to the centre section. But, as has been said., the British loading gauge is much more restrictive.
For those who can't or won't access The Book of Faces, here's the same BBC video report on X/Twitter. It doesn't look too appealing!
However, speaking about more recent attempts to devise UK double-deckers: The Institution of Mechanical Engineers has an article from 2020.
If anything, the picture in the article shows how it might be done: as in e.g. Continental Europe (or probably Oz, for that matter), the middle section between the bogies needs to be lowered as much as possible; this wasn't done to the maximum extent with the 4DDs. I'm sure technology has advanced considerably since then, and carriage building knowledge has much increased.
I'm not saying it is definitely feasible in UK, but I believe it just might.
In other news, this 2025 article claims that there are plans to bring in double-decker type EuroStars, similar to the French double-decker TGV. While they could run on HS1 without an issue, as I believe Continental loading gauge, it'll probably need some serious thinking to get them into Central London on the old lines.
Amtrak have run double-deck Superliners in the American West for years. I think the railroads in the East have a more restrictive loading gauge.
The difficulty with double-deck trains for suburban work is the longer dwell time at stations. I'd guess that the DDs didn't have a lowered centre section so that passengers could alight from each compartment - as stated above, the Southern didn't seem to believe in "open" stock and of course Britain has high platforms!
Amtrak have run double-deck Superliners in the American West for years. I think the railroads in the East have a more restrictive loading gauge.
The difficulty with double-deck trains for suburban work is the longer dwell time at stations. I'd guess that the DDs didn't have a lowered centre section so that passengers could alight from each compartment - as stated above, the Southern didn't seem to believe in "open" stock and of course Britain has high platforms!
Yes, the high platforms and restricted loading gauge were (and are) obstacles which really could not easily be overcome. Bulleid did his best with the two 4DD units, but even so, they were not entirely successful. The Southern kept them in service for about 20 years, so they were at least reliable (once initial wheel problems had been solved!).
Thanks for your intervention @Wesley J .
I’ll be starting from Skipton early in the day, possibly not hanging around in Carlisle as I’d prefer to have more time in back in Skipton - narrowboats on the canal and a castle to see.
I could go to Carlisle in the morning, possibly returning via Cornforth and Lancaster for a change of scenery, or vice versa.
Starting from Skipton ensures that you get the best of the scenery!
A return via Carnforth and Lancaster is worth doing, too. I have fond memories of that part of Lancashire - a more attractive part of the county than one might at first suppose.
Except Carnforth is just through trains now on the West Coast Main Line. If you want to go to Grange over Sands then you can get at train from Lancaster that stops there. Otherwise I would recommend the station buffet called Last Encounter and "yes" is the answer to your question.
Thanks for your intervention @Wesley J .
I’ll be starting from Skipton early in the day, possibly not hanging around in Carlisle as I’d prefer to have more time in back in Skipton - narrowboats on the canal and a castle to see.
I could go to Carlisle in the morning, possibly returning via Cornforth and Lancaster for a change of scenery, or vice versa.
Starting from Skipton ensures that you get the best of the scenery!
A return via Carnforth and Lancaster is worth doing, too. I have fond memories of that part of Lancashire - a more attractive part of the county than one might at first suppose.
Except Carnforth is just through trains now on the West Coast Main Line. If you want to go to Grange over Sands then you can get at train from Lancaster that stops there. Otherwise I would recommend the station buffet called Last Encounter and "yes" is the answer to your question.
Very perceptive (and accurate) - my question was ‘is the Carnforth cenotaph still basically derelict?’
Assuming you're referring to the coaling stage, it's a listed building, but the official description says that it's not clear as to when it was last operational. The depot itself is the base for West Coast Railways.
Yes, double-deckers are quite common outside Britain, often with steps down to the centre section. But, as has been said., the British loading gauge is much more restrictive.
I had not thought of the very restricted loading gauge in the UK. The double-deck carriages have lobbies towards the ends of the carriage and these are at platform height. Seating there is longitudinal. From the entry lobbies, there are a small stairs to upper and lower levels. seating there is across the carriage in a 2+3 layout. The backrests of most of these seats can easily be moved across to enable passengers to face in either direction. Most passengers prefer to face the direction of travel. For some general information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Trains_rolling_stock
Comments
The backs of the bench seats indicated that they were intended for five passengers seated on each side. At peak hours it was normal for each compartment to have 24 passengers: six seated on each side and 12 standing, holding on to the luggage racks.
IIRC, only the earlier units were *supposed* to seat 5-a-side. As you say, 6-a-side became the norm, with the 12 standees. The atmosphere in a smoking compartment in such conditions was less than salubrious...
For a time, I commuted to London on a train usually composed of the 4EPB units. I was a heavy smoker in those days, so know whereof I speak as to the state of the smoking compartments...
In addition, Tornado has been out and about again, namely on the Settle to Carlisle line, on 31 May 2025. Plenty of videos to be found for those who are looking.
When I first went to live in Lisbon (1978), some of the buses were 30-year old AECs ... and some of the trams dated back to 1906 (and ran into the 1990s!).
The bus fleet was rapidly modernising; but the tram system was planned to be phased out, hence no new investment in it.
Southdown's coaches a short while pre-NBC were two-tone green, not (IMHO) all that inspiring a livery, but in the 50s and 60s had cream added to the mix, as seen on the coach in the video - much nicer!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-jWIIAjyVY
Yes, I've only seen them parked in the depot, with the destination proudly displaying "Cruz Quebrada" - where trams once went and should go again.
I know there are still lots of pre-nationalisation rail chairs in sidings, and pre-1923 GWR benches - Stourbridge Junction still had/has some Victorian ones in one of the waiting rooms IIRC.
Cradley Heath in 1987/8, dying days of Edmondson tickets, was apparently still issuing some GWR tickets for less common journeys!
But now, my assumption is it’s going to be on the Western Region as was, in the areas that are still semaphore signalled. I wonder if there’s any pre-1900 block equipment or similar still quietly doing its job in a signal box somewhere? That would be where I’d put my money for ‘oldest bit of kit still in use’
Any other suggestions?
Anyone able to help our Shipmate Puzzler, please? (Wouldn't know in detail myself right now, I'm afraid.) - Thank you muchly!
As regards old equipment, I think signalling items are probably the most common still in use. Old sidings seem to be a thing of the past, at least around here, but maybe some pre-grouping chairs are still to be found amongst the weeds.
I'm not sure if they're still there, but the freight-only line from Hoo Junction to Grain Thamesport had at least two *traditional* semaphore signals at the far end. A fixed (I think) distant, constructed in true Southern waste-not-want-not style from bits of old rail, on the approach to the former Grain terminus, and a starter signal to allow trains out of the port area, and across the main road. The crossing-keeper's little building (still painted in Southern green and cream!) may also still survive, but I haven't been out that way for some years.
The branch to Grain has a convoluted history. Closed to passengers since 1961, it once had at least six interesting twigs, although only one of them (the short-lived Allhallows branch) was open to passenger traffic.
I’ll be starting from Skipton early in the day, possibly not hanging around in Carlisle as I’d prefer to have more time in back in Skipton - narrowboats on the canal and a castle to see.
I could go to Carlisle in the morning, possibly returning via Cornforth and Lancaster for a change of scenery, or vice versa.
The oldest lever frame in use on Network Rail appears to be the 1875 example at Monk's Siding signal box, Warrington, which is a mere 150 years old now:
https://old.signalbox.org/gallery/lm/monkssdg.php
There are several others from the 1880s surviving; the GWR examples tend to be more recent as they were often renewed during the twentieth century.
Starting from Skipton ensures that you get the best of the scenery!
A return via Carnforth and Lancaster is worth doing, too. I have fond memories of that part of Lancashire - a more attractive part of the county than one might at first suppose.
All the electric passenger trains in the Sydney area (extending approximately 150 km north, south, south-west and south) are double-deck multiple units. I think all are now air-conditioned. Slight variations between those for suburban and outer suburban services, chiefly to allow more seats for the suburban sets. There are still a few outer services provided by diesel units, and given the low demand in those areas, expensive wiring will not be installed. I'd certainly not call them claustrophobic.
Apples and oranges though - now build some double decker stock for the Victorian English loading gauge… no opening windows on the upper compartments, no air conditioning, pressure ventilation that doesn’t work, etc.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1278560872991556
However, speaking about more recent attempts to devise UK double-deckers: The Institution of Mechanical Engineers has an article from 2020.
If anything, the picture in the article shows how it might be done: as in e.g. Continental Europe (or probably Oz, for that matter), the middle section between the bogies needs to be lowered as much as possible; this wasn't done to the maximum extent with the 4DDs. I'm sure technology has advanced considerably since then, and carriage building knowledge has much increased.
I'm not saying it is definitely feasible in UK, but I believe it just might.
In other news, this 2025 article claims that there are plans to bring in double-decker type EuroStars, similar to the French double-decker TGV. While they could run on HS1 without an issue, as I believe Continental loading gauge, it'll probably need some serious thinking to get them into Central London on the old lines.
Interesting!
The difficulty with double-deck trains for suburban work is the longer dwell time at stations. I'd guess that the DDs didn't have a lowered centre section so that passengers could alight from each compartment - as stated above, the Southern didn't seem to believe in "open" stock and of course Britain has high platforms!
Yes, the high platforms and restricted loading gauge were (and are) obstacles which really could not easily be overcome. Bulleid did his best with the two 4DD units, but even so, they were not entirely successful. The Southern kept them in service for about 20 years, so they were at least reliable (once initial wheel problems had been solved!).
Except Carnforth is just through trains now on the West Coast Main Line. If you want to go to Grange over Sands then you can get at train from Lancaster that stops there. Otherwise I would recommend the station buffet called Last Encounter and "yes" is the answer to your question.
Very perceptive (and accurate) - my question was ‘is the Carnforth cenotaph still basically derelict?’
https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1078213?section=official-list-entry
I'm guessing that, as it's a listed building, it has to be kept in reasonable condition, even if not in use.
I had not thought of the very restricted loading gauge in the UK. The double-deck carriages have lobbies towards the ends of the carriage and these are at platform height. Seating there is longitudinal. From the entry lobbies, there are a small stairs to upper and lower levels. seating there is across the carriage in a 2+3 layout. The backrests of most of these seats can easily be moved across to enable passengers to face in either direction. Most passengers prefer to face the direction of travel. For some general information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Trains_rolling_stock