That is an interesting take on it @TheOrganist and one I haven't heard before either.
Our sermon was also on the subject of Pentecost - the day of the birth of the church, which is still going. God is unstoppable. The Holy Spirit also wants to work in us today and we need to rediscover prophecy, tongues, etc.
(Not for the first time I left knowing I heard the same sermon 30 years ago, and done better then . This is not really the place for that sort of comment so I'll make a quick exit before the hosts come after me... oh wait... )
We are all members of the body of Christ and all have a part to play in ministry.
Visiting preacher( s) at Choral Evensong in a rural village - not my usual place, but I go for the music. Part 2 of a 3 part series on the theology of ministry.
A staged dialogue between husband and wife ministers, mainly recounting the varied ministries they have had over many years. After 20 minutes the local priest interjected to say the visiting choir have another engagement. They carried on for a further five minutes, so the service lasted 1h25- not quite the norm! It might have worked in another context, eg a day’s workshop or an afternoon group. Their conclusion did not really follow from what they had recounted.
Part 1 was from a local person, a non-church goer. Now that would have interested me!
Some of the Holy Clergy™ love the sound of their own voices. A young lady (aged 7) attending a Low Mass at Our Place, accompanied by her uncle, asked why we found it necessary to use so many words when talking to or about God?
With all due respect to ++Cranmer, who IIRC intended the homily to be preached at Holy Communion, Evensong is wordy enough without any sermon, let alone nearly half-an-hour's worth...
We're in "Bible Month", and this year we're working through John. So, this morning we had John 4 as our reading rather than a specific Pentecost service (there's a Pentecost circuit service this evening). The sermon took the Samaritan Woman at the well and had a "the gospel heard by all nations" theme, picking up the Pentecost narrative of visitors from many nations hearing the gospel in their own languages. Also brought out a comparison with John 3 - both start with a conversation (in John 3 it's with Nicodemus) and end with lots of people becoming disciples - and how this embeds the gospel being for all nations into the early part of John in a way that the other Gospels don't (there it's just a couple of individuals). An application of the message into how the Church can sometimes be slow about embracing the riches of other cultures in worship and practice or find it difficult to encapsulate the gospel message in a culturally relevant way (also a wee rant about European Christians importing their cultural practices into other nations), and a short reflection on the contrast with an unnamed (but clearly identified) political party that stood in a local by-election (fortunately coming third, but with over 7000 votes) with a racist campaign and policies that don't welcome people of other cultures into our communities.
We also had an earlier conversation with the congregation, half of whom were born in other nations, which anchored the sermon message of good news for all nations in the experience of the congregation.
The combination of our conversation, an introduction to the Gospel (which summarised John 2 and 3 to set context for the reading, and in other contexts could have been part of the sermon) and the sermon itself wouldn't have been far short of half an hour. Half an hour for just the sermon would be excessive for a 1h service, but if the speaking bit is broken up a bit it's not too unreasonable (would be a problem with Communion and a larger congregation to be served though, if you want the service to fit into 1h).
Ours sermons are usually around 30 minutes, in an hour service (so we often overrun by 5 minutes, and the musicians for the later service start to get agitated and stand at the back glaring at the service leader).
Today's sermon was 15 minutes followed by a three-minute prayer (whispered for authenticity).
Nothing wrong with a 15 minute sermon - but not when no-one has been warned that that's what's going to happen. Fortunately, our service leader today is a pro, and led us into an extended time of intercessory prayer - and provided an extended benediction pulling together the three readings that we had.
An application of the message into how the Church can sometimes be slow about embracing the riches of other cultures in worship and practice or find it difficult to encapsulate the gospel message in a culturally relevant way (also a wee rant about European Christians importing their cultural practices into other nations), and a short reflection on the contrast with an unnamed (but clearly identified) political party that stood in a local by-election (fortunately coming third, but with over 7000 votes) with a racist campaign.
Trinity Sunday (so Patronal Festival at Our Place) and we started a new sermon series on the Trinity, based on the Nicene Creed.
Preaching was on God the Father, which also fitted in with Fathers' Day. The creed doesn't have much to say on the first person of the Trinity, saving most words for the more controversial issues of the day.
It basically tells us that God the Father is almighty and maker of everything (seen & unseen), although our rector managed to expand this to a 25 minute talk! I will be interested to see which of our regular preachers has drawn the short straw to preach on the filioque later in the series.
Ours sermons are usually around 30 minutes, in an hour service (so we often overrun by 5 minutes, and the musicians for the later service start to get agitated and stand at the back glaring at the service leader).
Today's sermon was 15 minutes followed by a three-minute prayer (whispered for authenticity).
Nothing wrong with a 15 minute sermon - but not when no-one has been warned that that's what's going to happen. Fortunately, our service leader today is a pro, and led us into an extended time of intercessory prayer - and provided an extended benediction pulling together the three readings that we had.
I can understand needing to warn about a longer than normal sermon, but I'm unclear why a shorter than normal one would be a problem.
It would be in our place because the children have their own activities during the sermon, intercessions, etc and the leaders work out their programme accordingly.
The verses describe a perfect world and were quoted by Jesus when he introduced himself (let's note the fact that he didn't quote the bit about vengeance but not say anything else about it). Pentecost comes 50 days after Passover and marks the spring harvest festival of the grains, with another - of fruits - to come in the autumn. At the first festival, and at Pentecost, we celebrate but we know there's more to come: the job is done, the world has been rebooted, the harvest is fulfilled, but there is more.
Family communion on Trinity Sunday. Rector admitted groaning having to do a sermon on the Trinity. His take was how to discover from the bible hints about the characters of the three parts of God. As an illustration he produced several items which sum up a person and asked us to be detectives. When we had the great reveal this was the newly appointed Bishop of Reading here in mufti. Embarrassingly as a church warden sitting next to her, whilst I thought her face was familiar, I did not twig who she was, pre the reveal!
Family communion on Trinity Sunday. Rector admitted groaning having to do a sermon on the Trinity.
In his book on the practice of preaching, The Word and The Words, Colin Morris considers the challenge of the preacher with a specific example of Trinity Sunday (apologies for the gendered language, which even in the mid 70s when this was written would have been archaic)
Trinity Sunday is the preacher's Waterloo. If he is prudent he will go down with a strategic bout of influenza the preceding day. If he suffers from a stern sense of duty, he will be forced to tie himself into verbal knots grappling with the ultimate mystery of God's Nature.
Or (as stated on another thread) show pictures of kittens.
Actually I do think it's worth trying to grapple with the mystery as it's a central tenet of our faith. Our Junior Church did a good activity this morning about interconnectedness - basically the Social Trinity and human society with bungee cords (I jest not).
The adult sermon was about the Spirit of Truth and what that might mean in today's world of Social Media and AI.
I can understand needing to warn about a longer than normal sermon, but I'm unclear why a shorter than normal one would be a problem.
Because people feel short-changed (maybe disconcerted would be a better way of expressing that) if we don't fill the hour - it also makes the service planning look incompetent.
Our preacher, the Area Dean, began by saying he had been told to preach a SHORT sermon, but as he didn’t know how long we were used to, he could not say whether we would find it long or short.
It was difficult to hear every word, as he alternated between addressing the congregation and the choir( well we singers did outnumber them ), partly from the pulpit, partly from the aisle, partly from the chancel. He preached for about 15 minutes on three ways of understanding the Trinity.
Being filled with the Spirit is not an option but a command for all Christians at all times. It is something done to you, you don't do it yourself, and always remember it is the spirit of Jesus and given to enable us to be like him. This can mean the miraculous but not just that - also to show his life and love.
The book of Jonah is about how a gracious God saves us through judgment.
God's judgment on Jonah through the storm led to the pagan sailors experiencing His power. They came to know him and worship him.
When we experience judgment we should confess, repent, trust and obey.
We shouldn't judge others, but extend God's grace and mercy to everyone (even that imbecile Trump and Ayatollahs in Iran)
The last talk of a prolonged series on Pentecost, what does it mean to receive power? Not a realisation of your inner potential but a gift from God. We are told to be witnesses, to tell our stories, no need to persuade or cajole people. Start where you are: Jerusalem, your local place, your tribe - sometimes the hardest place.
Not our usual priest but a visitor. The burden of his overlong sermon was what a good chap St Paul was, how he formed so much of modern thinking and attitudes. Suffice to say when I got into coffee he was surrounded by angry women 🤣😂🤣
I was actually the intended illustration of the sermon today. The preacher, a lay woman, had asked my permission before she named me. Was dealing with an incident that happened nearly 20 years ago.
Passage was Jeremiah 36. God tells Jeremiah to write his sayings on a scroll and present it to the people. When the king heard what was read, he tore the scroll up. God tells Jeremiah to write the sayings on a new scroll again and has Jeremiah tell the king the king will experience a terrible death. Point of the lesson is God's word will persist.
The lay preacher admits she was a terrible gossip 20 years ago. She and I were having our differences back then. She said she had been praying about how to accept me for who I am, and God kept telling her she had to love me.
Anyway, it was just after a service then that she started complaining about me to another person in front of an open mike. When she was told about the mike she was so embarrassed and sought me out to apologize. She had asked if I had heard what she had said. I had not. She told me what she said and said she was sorry. I told her such things happen and to forget about it. She said the experience caused her to love me.
While she asked permission to share the story this past Sunday. I found myself feeling so uncomfortable, I started coughing a bit when she started to share the story. During the passing of the peace, the preacher came over to once again say she was sorry for everything that had passed between us at the time. Even the presider came over to ask if I was all right.
Later, I told Mrs Gramps, even though I had given permission, I really wished the preacher would have used a different illustration. I had been so uncomfortable about it, I almost skipped church, but I concluded my skipping would have sent the wrong signal to the preacher.
Acts 23:23-35 The second half of the sermon was on Claudius Lysias's letter and how it reads rather like a "360-degree review" self-assessment. It is not entirely untrue but he adjusts the narrative because is keen to show himself in the best possible light. So image curation to impress the people we think matter is nothing new, but we should remember our primary identity as valued children of God in order to resist this temptation.
We are, as one service leader observed, moving at a glacial pace through the gospel of Matthew and both services today focused on one verse: Matthew 6:11 - "Give us today our daily bread."
At the first service the leader spoke about how being a Christian is about being both disciple and pilgrim - we are always learning and we wrestle when prayer is not answered as we hope or expect. It is about relationship before results and changes me so that I can change things. It is about us - can I be the answer to someone's prayer?
At the second service the emphasis was on asking for what we need, not for what we want - spiritual needs as well as physical.
Jonah 3
We are saved by grace alone
We are saved for good works of costly surrender
We can be confident in God’s Word
God wants willingness not perfection
Comparing the current state of the church to the valley of dry bones, and repeating the claim he frequently makes about people waxing nostalgic for the days when everyone went to church and Sunday schools were full. I haven't heard anyone say anything like that. I've heard sadness at declining congregations, but none of this rose-tinted nostalgia.
Jonah's reaction to Nineveh not being destroyed was like that of the elder brother in the Parable of the Prodigal Son. We can be like that brother. We may not be willing to see some people saved - but we should be. The mercy that reached Nineveh was also aimed at Jonah: The mercy that God gives to others is still trying to reach you.
Jonah's reaction to Nineveh not being destroyed was like that of the elder brother in the Parable of the Prodigal Son. We can be like that brother.
Interestingly, our sermon was also on Jonah, and that same point was made. The point was also made that we aren’t told the actual end of the stories—Jonah ends with God asking Jonah why he’s so angry at God’s mercy and compassion, and the parable ends with the father basically asking the older brother the same question. It is up to each of us to write the end of each story in our own lives.
The Parable of the Sower. It should be called the Parable of the Soils. It helps us understand why not everyone who hears the Gospel will become and continue a Christian, despite our efforts.
Continuing the series in the gospel of Matthew, we are in the Lord's Prayer - "Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil." Temptations come when we're worn out and our resistance is low - as for Jesus after 40 days in the desert. How do we deal with them? Read a portion of scripture; pray; tell another person about it and get them to pray for us.
Work is part of our creation mandate - predating the Fall - and so it should be good, even though it has now been corrupted. It is part of what gives us our purpose in life. Whatever we do in our "work," whether it is "sacred" or "secular", it is for God. Think about how your work brings glory to God, and pray through all the details of the day as you are able.
Comments
Our sermon was also on the subject of Pentecost - the day of the birth of the church, which is still going. God is unstoppable. The Holy Spirit also wants to work in us today and we need to rediscover prophecy, tongues, etc.
(Not for the first time I left knowing I heard the same sermon 30 years ago, and done better then
We are all members of the body of Christ and all have a part to play in ministry.
Visiting preacher( s) at Choral Evensong in a rural village - not my usual place, but I go for the music. Part 2 of a 3 part series on the theology of ministry.
A staged dialogue between husband and wife ministers, mainly recounting the varied ministries they have had over many years. After 20 minutes the local priest interjected to say the visiting choir have another engagement. They carried on for a further five minutes, so the service lasted 1h25- not quite the norm! It might have worked in another context, eg a day’s workshop or an afternoon group. Their conclusion did not really follow from what they had recounted.
Part 1 was from a local person, a non-church goer. Now that would have interested me!
With all due respect to ++Cranmer, who IIRC intended the homily to be preached at Holy Communion, Evensong is wordy enough without any sermon, let alone nearly half-an-hour's worth...
We also had an earlier conversation with the congregation, half of whom were born in other nations, which anchored the sermon message of good news for all nations in the experience of the congregation.
Indeed it is - durance vile, given the awfulness of so many sermons.
Today's sermon was 15 minutes followed by a three-minute prayer (whispered for authenticity).
Nothing wrong with a 15 minute sermon - but not when no-one has been warned that that's what's going to happen. Fortunately, our service leader today is a pro, and led us into an extended time of intercessory prayer - and provided an extended benediction pulling together the three readings that we had.
Preaching was on God the Father, which also fitted in with Fathers' Day. The creed doesn't have much to say on the first person of the Trinity, saving most words for the more controversial issues of the day.
It basically tells us that God the Father is almighty and maker of everything (seen & unseen), although our rector managed to expand this to a 25 minute talk!
I will be interested to see which of our regular preachers has drawn the short straw to preach on the filioque later in the series.
I can understand needing to warn about a longer than normal sermon, but I'm unclear why a shorter than normal one would be a problem.
The verses describe a perfect world and were quoted by Jesus when he introduced himself (let's note the fact that he didn't quote the bit about vengeance but not say anything else about it). Pentecost comes 50 days after Passover and marks the spring harvest festival of the grains, with another - of fruits - to come in the autumn. At the first festival, and at Pentecost, we celebrate but we know there's more to come: the job is done, the world has been rebooted, the harvest is fulfilled, but there is more.
Actually I do think it's worth trying to grapple with the mystery as it's a central tenet of our faith. Our Junior Church did a good activity this morning about interconnectedness - basically the Social Trinity and human society with bungee cords (I jest not).
The adult sermon was about the Spirit of Truth and what that might mean in today's world of Social Media and AI.
Because people feel short-changed (maybe disconcerted would be a better way of expressing that) if we don't fill the hour - it also makes the service planning look incompetent.
God is present in his creation.
He want us to be in his presence,
so that we can represent him to the world.
It was difficult to hear every word, as he alternated between addressing the congregation and the choir( well we singers did outnumber them ), partly from the pulpit, partly from the aisle, partly from the chancel. He preached for about 15 minutes on three ways of understanding the Trinity.
Being filled with the Spirit is not an option but a command for all Christians at all times. It is something done to you, you don't do it yourself, and always remember it is the spirit of Jesus and given to enable us to be like him. This can mean the miraculous but not just that - also to show his life and love.
The book of Jonah is about how a gracious God saves us through judgment.
God's judgment on Jonah through the storm led to the pagan sailors experiencing His power. They came to know him and worship him.
When we experience judgment we should confess, repent, trust and obey.
We shouldn't judge others, but extend God's grace and mercy to everyone (even that imbecile Trump and Ayatollahs in Iran)
The last talk of a prolonged series on Pentecost, what does it mean to receive power? Not a realisation of your inner potential but a gift from God. We are told to be witnesses, to tell our stories, no need to persuade or cajole people. Start where you are: Jerusalem, your local place, your tribe - sometimes the hardest place.
Passage was Jeremiah 36. God tells Jeremiah to write his sayings on a scroll and present it to the people. When the king heard what was read, he tore the scroll up. God tells Jeremiah to write the sayings on a new scroll again and has Jeremiah tell the king the king will experience a terrible death. Point of the lesson is God's word will persist.
The lay preacher admits she was a terrible gossip 20 years ago. She and I were having our differences back then. She said she had been praying about how to accept me for who I am, and God kept telling her she had to love me.
Anyway, it was just after a service then that she started complaining about me to another person in front of an open mike. When she was told about the mike she was so embarrassed and sought me out to apologize. She had asked if I had heard what she had said. I had not. She told me what she said and said she was sorry. I told her such things happen and to forget about it. She said the experience caused her to love me.
While she asked permission to share the story this past Sunday. I found myself feeling so uncomfortable, I started coughing a bit when she started to share the story. During the passing of the peace, the preacher came over to once again say she was sorry for everything that had passed between us at the time. Even the presider came over to ask if I was all right.
Later, I told Mrs Gramps, even though I had given permission, I really wished the preacher would have used a different illustration. I had been so uncomfortable about it, I almost skipped church, but I concluded my skipping would have sent the wrong signal to the preacher.
Still, it was painful.
At the first service the leader spoke about how being a Christian is about being both disciple and pilgrim - we are always learning and we wrestle when prayer is not answered as we hope or expect. It is about relationship before results and changes me so that I can change things. It is about us - can I be the answer to someone's prayer?
At the second service the emphasis was on asking for what we need, not for what we want - spiritual needs as well as physical.
We are saved by grace alone
We are saved for good works of costly surrender
We can be confident in God’s Word
God wants willingness not perfection
Jonah's reaction to Nineveh not being destroyed was like that of the elder brother in the Parable of the Prodigal Son. We can be like that brother. We may not be willing to see some people saved - but we should be. The mercy that reached Nineveh was also aimed at Jonah: The mercy that God gives to others is still trying to reach you.
Work is part of our creation mandate - predating the Fall - and so it should be good, even though it has now been corrupted. It is part of what gives us our purpose in life. Whatever we do in our "work," whether it is "sacred" or "secular", it is for God. Think about how your work brings glory to God, and pray through all the details of the day as you are able.