GAFCON Split

Gracious RebelGracious Rebel Shipmate
edited October 16 in Purgatory
Just seen this announcement.
'Gafcon has re-ordered the Anglican Communion'
'We have not left the Anglican Communion; we are the Anglican Communion.'
'Today, Gafcon is leading the Global Anglican Communion.'
Words fail me! And I'm not even an Anglican

(ETA fixed hyperlink, DT, random passing admin)
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Comments

  • I just get a 'This site can't be reached' message...
    :naughty:
  • Gracious RebelGracious Rebel Shipmate
    edited October 16
    must have messed up the url
    try this.

    (ETA retconned hyperlink, DT, random passing admin.)
  • If they are saying what I think they are saying then it sounds like the 'Continuing Anglican' thing. There are a few small splinter groups across the Anglican world which consider themselves the 'true' guardians of the Anglican faith from which the rest have departed.

    You find similar splinter-groups over different sets of issues with Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy and I daresay other Christian bodies besides.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    "Howls of derisive laughter, Bruce!"

    Do they not realise how ridiculous they sound? "We're the real Anglican Communion despite requiring that all our members are out of communion with *checks notes* Ecclesia Anglicana."
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Why do they want to retain the word Anglican ? Also, at this point - what is their theological objection merging with the RCC or the Orthodox ?
  • Jane RJane R Shipmate
    Well, presumably the Catholics would expect them to accept the pope's authority...
  • Because they want their own trainset to play with.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited October 16
    Jane R wrote: »
    Well, presumably the Catholics would expect them to accept the pope's authority...
    And some GAFCON provinces ordain women.


  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    OK, but still, why not call themselves the global Protestant communion or the global reformed communion or similar ?

    There’s an argument the Anglican communion, like the commonwealth, is a relic of colonial empire building and I am just surprised they want to keep the nomenclature.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Jane R wrote: »
    Well, presumably the Catholics would expect them to accept the pope's authority...
    And some GAFCON provinces ordain women.


    Presumably the ones that don’t will split off in the medium term, citing exactly the same reasons.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited October 16
    OK, but still, why not call themselves the global Protestant communion or the global reformed communion or similar ?
    Well, they’re not Reformed, and they may see themselves as the via media between Roman Catholic and Protestant. Besides, there’s already the World Communion of Reformed Churches.

    Most of the GAFCON provinces have “Anglican” in their names, so I doubt they see a reason to abandon the term.

    I suspect that, as seems to be typical in these sorts of things, they want to claim that they are the true inheritors of Anglicanism, and that it’s the “other” provinces, not themselves, that have departed from the Anglican Way.


  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    edited October 16
    Why do they want to retain the word Anglican ? Also, at this point - what is their theological objection merging with the RCC or the Orthodox ?

    The majority of GAFCON likely regard the RCC and the Orthodox as Vile Hereticks. Afaik GAFCON is solely the Evangelical end of things - the Society isn't in GAFCON and any Anglo-Catholics who wanted to have already joined the Ordinariate.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    OK, but still, why not call themselves the global Protestant communion or the global reformed communion or similar ?
    Well, they’re not Reformed, and they may see themselves as the via media between Roman Catholic and Protestant. Besides, there’s already the World Communion of Reformed Churches.

    Most of the GAFCON provinces have “Anglican” in their names, so I doubt they see a reason to abandon the term.

    I suspect that, as seems to be typical in these sorts of things, they want to claim that they are the true inheritors of Anglicanism, and that it’s the “other” provinces, not themselves, that have departed from the Anglican Way.


    They absolutely do largely see themselves as Reformed, and yes they very much see themselves as the true inheritors of Anglicanism.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    I feel the world church could do with some communion consolidation, whilst inheriting a range of liturgies from their ancestor churches. It is just wildly confusing.
  • There’s an argument the Anglican communion, like the commonwealth, is a relic of colonial empire building and I am just surprised they want to keep the nomenclature.

    Yeah, this is one of those cases where there are so many issues in play that one could make an argument that they'd get on better or at least be less visibly aggro with each other apart than together.
  • I imagine the new ABC will be relieved to know that she won't have to deal with these people (if she decides not to, that is!).
  • On the via media thing, it's often said that it refers to a mid-point between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism, but originally it referred to the Church of England aiming to strike a balance between Calvinism and Lutheranism.

    The Calvinistic emphasis tended to dominate though, until the 1630s with the rise of the 'Arminian' party under Archbishop Laud.

    James VI of Scotland, 1st of England, was a High Church Calvinist to all intents and purposes.

    Thereafter there were tugs between Calvinists and Arminians (the Wesleys were Arminian of course, Whitefield and others Calvinist).

    There were also Latitudinarians of course.

    The 'Catholicising' of Anglicanism really stems from the Oxford Movement of the 19th century.

    I don’t know what's happened to Reform (not to be confused with Farage and Co), the more Calvinistic conservative evangelical groups within the Church of England but they can be a bit GAFCON-ish.

    I think it is possible to talk of a distinctly 'Anglican' identity which is different to both the Reformed Churches and Lutheranism, whilst sharing much in common with both. It's hard to pigeon-hole or define though, and different Anglicans have different understandings of what it means in practice, hence the rise of a 'We're more Anglican than Thou' tendency which can crop up at both 'ends' of the spectrum and in the middle at one and the same time.

    Heck, I've come across one or two 1549 style Cramnerian clergy around here who would almost certainly claim to be more authentically 'Anglican' than their fellow clergy of other flavours.

    Even with those Anglicans who claim to be 'reformed catholic', we have to unpack what they mean by both 'catholic' and 'reformed'.

    It can be a glorious mess but also a dog's breakfast.

    I'm sure there are Reformed who claim to be more Reformed than other Reformed.

    There are certainly Orthodox who claim to be more Orthodox than other Orthodox.

    But no, GAFCON wouldn't countenance either Roman Catholicism or Orthodoxy.

    I don't really know what they are 'for' only what they are 'against.'
  • I'm surely not the first person to think of this?
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    @Gamma Gamaliel I suspect that the more, ahem, moderate parts of Reform have sadly gone the way of Evangelical Anglicans doing communion with North end celebration. Certainly GAFCON ime is much more about what they're against than celebrating actual historical practice. I see nothing of eg John Stott flavoured moderation amongst them.

    I became a Christian in a church which at that point had some of the big pro-GAFCON members of Synod amongst their number (although said church is one of the few Evangelical Anglican churches in the area not presently under a flying bishop afaik) and frankly I'm surprised that it's taken them this long to do this. Very much par for the course in terms of thinking of themselves as the True Heirs of Anglicanism.

    @Doublethink I suspect that many in GAFCON have very little problem with colonial empire building.
  • Pomona wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    OK, but still, why not call themselves the global Protestant communion or the global reformed communion or similar ?
    Well, they’re not Reformed, and they may see themselves as the via media between Roman Catholic and Protestant. Besides, there’s already the World Communion of Reformed Churches.

    Most of the GAFCON provinces have “Anglican” in their names, so I doubt they see a reason to abandon the term.

    I suspect that, as seems to be typical in these sorts of things, they want to claim that they are the true inheritors of Anglicanism, and that it’s the “other” provinces, not themselves, that have departed from the Anglican Way.


    They absolutely do largely see themselves as Reformed, . . . .
    I know that historically Reformed theology has been reflected in Anglicanism, the XXXIX Articles being a prime case in point. And while I know some Anglicans identify with Reformed theology, I’m not aware of any GAFCON church that would self-identify as a Reformed church; none, so far as I know, are members of the World Communion of Reformed Churches or the (more conservative) World Reformed Fellowship. (The Church of North India and the Church of South India, both of which are united churches, are part of both the Anglican Communion and the World Communion of Reformed Churches, so membership in both is possible. For that matter, both churches are also members of the World Methodist Council.)

    And yes, @Gamma Gamaliel, there are definitely conservative Reformed churches that revel in being the “true Reformed” or “more Reformed than them.”


  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    @Nick Tamen ah, I was thinking in terms of individual clergy or individual congregations - I meant "church" as in "congregation". Certainly many GAFCON-aligned congregations in England would self-identify as Reformed Anglicans.
  • Pomona wrote: »
    @Gamma Gamaliel I suspect that the more, ahem, moderate parts of Reform have sadly gone the way of Evangelical Anglicans doing communion with North end celebration.

    Was that ever not the case in Reform circles?
  • Pomona wrote: »
    @Nick Tamen ah, I was thinking in terms of individual clergy or individual congregations - I meant "church" as in "congregation". Certainly many GAFCON-aligned congregations in England would self-identify as Reformed Anglicans.
    Ah, gotcha.

  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Surprised it's taken them this long, to be honest. The new ABC is everything they hate, even the ones who don't object to her being a woman per se don't like her Dead Horses positions.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Pomona wrote: »
    @Gamma Gamaliel I suspect that the more, ahem, moderate parts of Reform have sadly gone the way of Evangelical Anglicans doing communion with North end celebration.

    Was that ever not the case in Reform circles?

    Sorry, having trouble parsing this sentence - do you mean were Reform usually doing North end celebration? I think it's been rare for a long time even amongst con-evos.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    I imagine the new ABC will be relieved to know that she won't have to deal with these people (if she decides not to, that is!).

    She might not think, "Don't let the door smack you in the ass as you leave," but I do.
  • Bet she does, but being a nice English lady she’d be too polite to say so.

    Mind you the GAFCON mob don’t deserve a response, sanctimonious areseholes that they are.
  • peasepease Tech Admin
    Gafcon's announcement begins:
    To our dear Anglican brothers and sisters in Christ.

    Grace and peace to you in the name of our risen Lord Jesus Christ, on the Commemoration of the martyrdom of Hugh Latimer and Nicholas Ridley.
  • Yep, saw that.
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    And yes, @Gamma Gamaliel, there are definitely conservative Reformed churches that revel in being the “true Reformed” or “more Reformed than them.”
    True in some nonconformist circles too.

  • Such things are, sadly, endemic across the entire Christian spectrum. I can't speak for other traditions but within my own it can centre around highly peripheral and comparatively truvial issues such as the Calendar.

    Often these aren't the 'real' bone of contention of course but a smoke-screen, conscious or unconscious, for something else.

    As an aside, @Pomona mentioned John Stott. I met him once and was impressed. I felt I was in the presence of someone who was genuine, authentic, humble and holy.

    May his memory be eternal!
  • peasepease Tech Admin
    Sojourner wrote: »
    Yep, saw that.
    I presume Gafcon imagine themselves to be lighting a candle, or keeping the flame alive.

    However, on 16 October 1555, Nicholas Ridley (Bishop of London) and Hugh Latimer (chaplain to King Edward VI) were burnt at the stake while Thomas Cranmer (Archbishop of Canterbury) looked on, which seems darker.
  • Jane RJane R Shipmate
    Latimer and Ridley are referenced by self-styled Anglican martyrs of all theological persuasions. When the vote to ordain women passed Synod (lo these many years ago, last century in fact) our parish priest preached a sermon against it on the grounds that the Pope would not approve, and cited Latimer and Ridley in support of his argument. (!!!)

    In fairness to Cranmer, he did subsequently find the courage to defy Bloody Mary and was himself burned for heresy. I think his waverings, and ultimate decision to be true to his conscience, are very Anglican.
  • I was once told off online by Orthodox Christians, not RCs, for referring to 'Bloody Mary' rather than Mary Tudor.

    That doesn't mean she wasn't culpable.

    In pure mathematical equation terms, the balance of those executed on either side of the Reformation divide in England was pretty even and balanced.

    Even-stevens in terms of death toll. That doesn't make any of it alright.

    The hanging of the Jesuit priest David Lewis and other RC clergy and laity during the grotesque 'Popish Plot' paranoia of the 1670s is every bit as terrible as the fires of Smithfield during Mary's reign.

    Even Philip of Spain thought she was going too far.

    I've shared on another thread how an Orthodox priest I know when celebrating the Liturgy in a borrowed building 'apologised' to a Greek Catholic martyr whose icon was on display and who'd died at the hands of the Orthodox.

    An RC priest once told me of a commemorative ecumenical service in Oxford for the martyrs on both sides of the Reformation divide which spontaneously ground to a halt because people became so tearful.

    A senior RC cleric observed that he'd never seen anything like it in the 30 years he'd attended such gatherings and that he felt that genuine sorrow and remorse has been expressed for the first time.

    May the Lord melt all our hard hearts.
  • peasepease Tech Admin
    Jane R wrote: »
    ...In fairness to Cranmer, he did subsequently find the courage to defy Bloody Mary and was himself burned for heresy. I think his waverings, and ultimate decision to be true to his conscience, are very Anglican.
    Just to note that Cranmer was still under imprisonment at the time, and had been taken to a tower from where he would be able to see the fate of his colleagues. The delay in deciding his fate seems to be on account of waiting for a decision from Rome.

    And with reference to how these things are seen today, on the occasion of Justin Welby's ill-conceived farewell speech in the Lords, his reflection about Simon of Sudbury reminded me that bishops and archbishops in the CofE are well aware of the fate of their predecessors.
  • The self-righousness of GAFCON folk takes one's breath away. What Our Lord said to the Pharasees and Saduces springs to mind. Lord have mercy!
  • Sounds like the "Old Believers" schism in the Russian Orthodox Church. Unfortunately they didn't take any bishops with them, which meant they couldn't ordain priests. The dwindled into a folk-religion type movement.
  • Jengie JonJengie Jon Shipmate
    edited October 17
    OK, but still, why not call themselves the global Protestant communion or the global reformed communion or similar ?

    Because

    They are really tiny when looking globally. Reformed is not theirs to own; it is taken by a far bigger body than the Anglican Communion. "Protestant" would make them Lutheran.

    Time to become less Anglo-centric. Anglo=English

    Reformed is a much broader stream of Christianity than that which streams from Anglican-Puritanism
  • Pomona wrote: »
    Pomona wrote: »
    @Gamma Gamaliel I suspect that the more, ahem, moderate parts of Reform have sadly gone the way of Evangelical Anglicans doing communion with North end celebration.

    Was that ever not the case in Reform circles?

    Sorry, having trouble parsing this sentence - do you mean were Reform usually doing North end celebration? I think it's been rare for a long time even amongst con-evos.

    I mean that apart from a few Sydney Anglicans who made a virtue of north end celebrations, I've not known churches in Reform to pay any particular attention to that aspect of communion (though I've never seen or heard of them face east).
  • Jane RJane R Shipmate
    @Gamma Gamaliel I think referring to Mary I of England as Bloody Mary is justifiable, but trying to both-sides her behaviour on the grounds that Elizabeth's regime executed about the same number of people is not. Elizabeth was queen for far longer than Mary, and many of the people executed in her reign were actively involved in plots to assassinate her and/or put a Catholic on the throne instead, which is why they were executed as traitors rather than burned.

    Also the sixteenth century is full of royal women named Mary, including Mary I's aunt, also named Mary Tudor, and Mary of Guise, mother of Mary Queen of Scots. And the multiple burnings of heretics in 'Bloody' Mary's reign really were unprecedented in England, though small potatoes compared to the Spanish Inquisition.
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    I dunno I feel that being hung, drawn and quartered might still be somewhat unpleasant and that as my entrails were displayed before my eyes a degree of "both-sidesism" with regard to this issue would appear not unreasonable.
  • Jane RJane R Shipmate
    edited October 17
    Well yes. But given that the Pope had denounced Elizabeth as a heretic and offered a papal dispensation to anyone who assassinated her, one can understand her attitude too. It's not paranoia if the Pope really is out to get you.

    And this is a tangent so I'll stop talking now.
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    Ruth wrote: »
    She might not think, "Don't let the door smack you in the ass as you leave," but I do.
    You don't think they could do with being smacked in the ass? In Christian love.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited October 17
    Ruth wrote: »
    I imagine the new ABC will be relieved to know that she won't have to deal with these people (if she decides not to, that is!).
    She might not think, "Don't let the door smack you in the ass as you leave," but I do.
    Sojourner wrote: »
    Bet she does, but being a nice English lady she’d be too polite to say so.
    If she were an American Southerner, she could simply say “well bless their hearts.” :wink:


  • @Jane R - yes, I know most of those Elizabeth I executed were actively engaged in plots against her.

    If I'd lived in Tudor England I'd have sailed against the Spanish Armada rather than welcomed it with open arms 😉.

    But I'm Orthodox so it's a case of 'neither-side'-ism rather than both/sides-ism.

    Elizabeth I did have plots against her. The Popish Plot was illusory and born out of paranoia.

    That doesn't exonerate what the RCs were doing elsewhere in Europe and in the Americas at that time.

    Heck, the Greeks and Russians can still be jumpy and see 'Jesuit plots' everywhere.

    But I'll shut up too.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    From my leftist perspective, good riddance to bad rubbish.
  • Caissa wrote: »
    From my leftist perspective, good riddance to bad rubbish.

    Well, they haven't quite gone anywhere - yet - but I'm afraid I'm inclined to agree.

    What term could be used, other than 'Anglican', to identify those churches which are no longer in communion with Canterbury?
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    They can define themselves as "Anglican" I think the Communion might want to coin their own term for them.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Caissa wrote: »
    They can define themselves as "Anglican" I think the Communion might want to coin their own term for them.

    Schismatics? :naughty:
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