The Orthodox don't tend to go in for embalming either.
I'm obviously in favour of burials rather than cremation but it's not a simple or problem-free option as @Lamb Chopped has indicated.
Not heard of concrete vaults but imagine there must be a geological reason for that, shifting sand or soil or something along those lines.
Space is clearly an issue and there are problems with that in Greece.
Whether or not true, I don't know, but I understood the reason for mandating concrete vaults in some jurisdictions was the undertakers' lobby ensuring a lucrative market for themselves in completely unnecessary goods and services.
@pease many churches seek "eco church" certification, and there has in general been a huge increase in acknowledgement of the climate emergency in many UK churches. Certainly, a lot of the more conservative Evangelical suspicion towards anthropogenic climate change seems to have faded away or disappeared entirely in recent years. I think perhaps the lack of conversation around the environment and death is more to do with not wanting to discuss death at all.
I'd agree that's true to an extent. However, I think there's also something of a conflict of interest for churches - it seems unlikely that many would relish revising doctrines (or dogma) about death in the light of climate change. And gaining eco church certification does not require them to.
How many churches or ministers have changed their policies to proscribe or discommend cremation on environmental grounds?
@pease I don't think any revision of doctrine would be necessary - I can't think of any church that requires cremation. Bringing environmental considerations into the conversation from a church perspective is not at all the same as proscribing any particular behaviour. I'm not sure why there's the leap to proscribing things rather than encouraging congregations to at least have more open discussions about deliberately choosing more environmentally-friendly burial options, and encouraging their use from a Christian perspective. It's not like churches began to embrace Fairtrade based on a belief that non-Fairtrade products should be proscribed. I'm talking about the same kind of encouragement of a beneficial option rather than rejecting the existing options wholesale.
@Baptist Trainfan, our Shipmate @Lamb Chopped lives in the US. She can answer the questions about the particular conditions governing burials in her State.
I understand that some US States stipulate that embalming must take place if the corpse is to be displayed in an open coffin.
As a caveat to my comments upthread, the Orthodox avoid embalming if possible but will alow it if there is a long gap before the burial or climate conditions make it unfeasible or if relatives request it.
I don't think we'd over-rule relatives wishes.
I would certainly favour wicker or cardboard or other 'eco' coffins or simply a shroud rather than hefty wooden ones with lots of brass fittings but I'm not sure whether that's a more general preference in Orthodox circles.
I would certainly favour wicker or cardboard or other 'eco' coffins or simply a shroud rather than hefty wooden ones with lots of brass fittings...
I doubt I'm alone in being surprised at the cost of the cheapest MFI foil-wrapped wood-effect chipboard wardrobe my Mum was cremated in a couple of years back. I was glad the pall-bearers didn't attempt to lift it by the 'brass' (plastic) handles. It'd be nice to avoid all that and go in the oven in a sack, but I guess if my kids have other ideas, that'll be up to them. Maybe I could make one myself if I looked up the regs (old pallets are free...), but then I'd have to keep it somewhere.
The bigger issue with cremation is the air pollution caused by burning - even if the fuel is renewable, it doesn't solve the problem of air pollution. Think of wood-burning stoves, great from a renewable energy perspective (and also very efficient) but they still cause serious harm via the particulate in the smoke. Smoke is carcinogenic regardless of what is being burned, which is why smoking things that aren't tobacco still hugely increases the risk of cancer. There's also no way of burning a body that doesn't cause harmful smoke.
It's possible things are not quite so bleak as we might fear. It's a shame the former shipmate (I hope I have the right one!) I mentioned upthread is no longer around - he was the Chief Engineer in a waste-burning power station in the UK. I enjoyed a long conversation one time he was visiting the North about flue-gas scrubbing, filtration etc etc (I was a bit sceptical about CHP from waste) and he mentioned that the industry his was most closely allied to, was that of firms building crematoria.
(Incidentally a friend works for a former farmer who bought two environment-agency approved pet cremation systems (I expect there's a word for that...I imply the size of domestic pets, not horses) at £70k each, and makes considerable money dealing with deceased pets around Manchester and Cheshire. 70 grand implies quite a lot of clean-up tech built-in. I don't know what the consumables, fuel and servicing costs set him back, but I am told a dog costs about £300. We enquired whether the deal ran to music during the 'service', and were told most owners liked a bit of Bach.)
What @Lamb Chopped describes is typical of the US in my experience. Where I am, vaults are not legally required, but many of not most cemeteries require them, ostensibly to prevent ground sinking and to make groundskeeping easier. That said, I would not discount the motivation @Stercus Tauri suggests.
Is wildlife also a concern? I know that the US generally has more wildlife that could create a problem with coffin-less burials - I can't think of any animal in the UK that would cause serious problems in that area.
@mark_in_manchester I would certainly welcome cremation becoming greener or at least less polluting (and also the same for wood-burning stoves...). I know that cremation is popular with pet owners as it reduces the risk of wildlife digging up buried remains, and it's also a lot easier to take cremains with you if you move house. I'm not at all opposed to cremation from a moral or theological angle, I just dislike the environmental effects.
I would certainly favour wicker or cardboard or other 'eco' coffins or simply a shroud rather than hefty wooden ones with lots of brass fittings...
I doubt I'm alone in being surprised at the cost of the cheapest MFI foil-wrapped wood-effect chipboard wardrobe my Mum was cremated in a couple of years back. I was glad the pall-bearers didn't attempt to lift it by the 'brass' (plastic) handles. It'd be nice to avoid all that and go in the oven in a sack, but I guess if my kids have other ideas, that'll be up to them. Maybe I could make one myself if I looked up the regs (old pallets are free...), but then I'd have to keep it somewhere.
I once took a funeral for someone who had made their own coffin and used it as a coffee table….
I over-ruled my mother's wish to be cremated on both theological and environmental grounds.
She believed cremation was environmentally the best option but I felt a 'natural burial' would be more in keeping with her environmental interests and with my own theological convictions.
My brother, who isn't Orthodox, came to the same conclusion and booked himself a 'natural burial' on the same site for when the time comes.
Ok, we were fortunate in having such a site in my home town. Where I live now the town is rapidly running out of burial space for those that want it.
My sister-in-law decided to bury her mother after she had seen us bury rather than cremate her sister, my late wife.
I was pleased she did.
That doesn't mean I'm 'evangelical' about burial and aim to convert everyone else away from cremation. But I'd be lying if said I wouldn't be pleased to hear of people opting from burial rather than cremation where possible.
That doesn't mean I don't respect other people's wishes and views and I know many of the comments here about being shoved in sacks and 'put in the oven' and so on are tongue-in-cheek and meant to be taken in jest.
I don't believe that people are cruel or heartless if they cremate their loved ones rather than lowering them gently into the ground. Mind you, my late wife's coffin went down with an alarming bump which sent my daughters and myself clinging to one another for support.
If nothing else it was a visceral reminder of the reality and finality of the situation.
I've shovelled soil onto a coffin at a Jewish wedding and that felt very visceral indeed. Which was rather the point.
I can certainly see the value in people keeping urns with cremated remains or scattering them in a favourite spot. That's visceral and cathartic too.
But some of the 'You can do what you like with my carcass, I won't be here,' comments do make me think that we Orthodox have a point. Matter matters. The body is important. 'Shove me in a sack, I don't care,' type comments rather suggest the opposite.
I am not laying this charge to those who are making considered and dignified cremation plans nor those who have described very movingly how they treasure or commemorate their departed loved ones through their cremated remains.
Far from it.
Nor am I underestimating the barriers to burial where space, state legislation and concrete vaults are the norm.
But some of the comments here have suggested, to me at least, a somewhat flippant and cavalier attitude to human bodies that are 'fearfully and wonderfully made.'
I may well get roasted for suggesting that and suffer premature cremation or burial in Hell and yes, I may be over-reacting to gallows-humour. In which case I apologise.
But some of the 'You can do what you like with my carcass, I won't be here,' comments do make me think that we Orthodox have a point. Matter matters. The body is important. 'Shove me in a sack, I don't care,' type comments rather suggest the opposite.
For some of us, flippant humour is just part of the way we deal with the world. For Dad, we had a natural wicker coffin, which very much fitted with the way he lived, and the things he enjoyed and prioritized. I am also completely certain that he would have referred to it as a laundry basket.
The body is important, but "shove me in a hole in a sack" can still be done with appropriate respect for the shell that used to contain a person we love. There is no need for a respectful funeral to need to be expensive.
I kind of like the fact that here everyone gets the same type of coffin (ok, I think there might be a choice of 2) because that's all the Co-op keep on hand. And, yes, the manager of Co-op Food also runs Co-op Funeral Services.
@Gamma Gamaliel I think I agree with all of that. I'm prone to gallows humour myself, but for me personally that's different to seeing the body as unimportant. Part of the point of "memento mori" iconography is a reminder to take joy in your materiality while you still have it.
But some of the 'You can do what you like with my carcass, I won't be here,' comments do make me think that we Orthodox have a point. Matter matters. The body is important. 'Shove me in a sack, I don't care,' type comments rather suggest the opposite.
Oh; I mentioned getting the sack ( ) so I'd better respond. I liked @Leorning Cniht 's 'Laundry Basket' comment - my Mum would have really liked that - but you're right, I do have a bit of a casual attitude to 'the remains'. I was glad I was with my Mum just before and after she died, and I went to see her body with Dad (who couldn't be there) which felt like the right thing to do (and was handled...what's a worthwhile descriptor...gracefully? enough by the hospital). She'd been clear with me right from my earliest memories of being frightened of death - 'what happens, Mum?' - that the body is a vessel you don't need any more by the time you are done with it. I've felt that that's true both times I've viewed a corpse, though who knows, Mum may have absorbed some Mediaeval, scholastic, dualistic heresy there!
(On 'matter matters' I often feel I am way too far down that road, as the 'tidy house' thread might let on - I enjoy being alive in the world and interacting with lumps and lumps of 'stuff' which I probably give too much priority to. Now and again a more ascetic approach would probably do me good. And my wife could find space in the airing cupboard).
I would certainly favour wicker or cardboard or other 'eco' coffins or simply a shroud rather than hefty wooden ones with lots of brass fittings...
I doubt I'm alone in being surprised at the cost of the cheapest MFI foil-wrapped wood-effect chipboard wardrobe my Mum was cremated in a couple of years back. I was glad the pall-bearers didn't attempt to lift it by the 'brass' (plastic) handles. It'd be nice to avoid all that and go in the oven in a sack, but I guess if my kids have other ideas, that'll be up to them. Maybe I could make one myself if I looked up the regs (old pallets are free...), but then I'd have to keep it somewhere.
I once took a funeral for someone who had made their own coffin and used it as a coffee table….
I looked it up last night - lots of local authorities give really decent design guidance on what to do if you want to DIY (3/4" ply base and sides, 1/4" ply top for a high-end piece, chipboard and poster paint for economy). I'm going to see Dad, the master of economy, next week; we'll discuss it
I kind of like the fact that here everyone gets the same type of coffin (ok, I think there might be a choice of 2) because that's all the Co-op keep on hand. And, yes, the manager of Co-op Food also runs Co-op Funeral Services.
Am I the only person reading this to immediately think of Soylent Green?
But some of the 'You can do what you like with my carcass, I won't be here,' comments do make me think that we Orthodox have a point. Matter matters. The body is important. 'Shove me in a sack, I don't care,' type comments rather suggest the opposite.
Oh; I mentioned getting the sack ( ) so I'd better respond. I liked @Leorning Cniht 's 'Laundry Basket' comment - my Mum would have really liked that - but you're right, I do have a bit of a casual attitude to 'the remains'. I was glad I was with my Mum just before and after she died, and I went to see her body with Dad (who couldn't be there) which felt like the right thing to do (and was handled...what's a worthwhile descriptor...gracefully? enough by the hospital). She'd been clear with me right from my earliest memories of being frightened of death - 'what happens, Mum?' - that the body is a vessel you don't need any more by the time you are done with it. I've felt that that's true both times I've viewed a corpse, though who knows, Mum may have absorbed some Mediaeval, scholastic, dualistic heresy there!
(On 'matter matters' I often feel I am way too far down that road, as the 'tidy house' thread might let on - I enjoy being alive in the world and interacting with lumps and lumps of 'stuff' which I probably give too much priority to. Now and again a more ascetic approach would probably do me good. And my wife could find space in the airing cupboard).
Sure, and I'm partial to gallows-humour myself @Pomona - and am also very partial to hoarding stuff which evokes memories or carries some 'freight'. I also have a very developed 'sense of place' - genius locii and all that.
I suppose it's the way I'm wired and may be one of the reasons why I was drawn to religious traditions which emphasise history, the physical dimension and so on.
I'm not saying that other Christian traditions don't do that, but we do it in a particular way that may be more in the 'foreground' perhaps.
It can certainly be over-realised and sometimes get out of hand.
I know there are stories in Greece about a particular Saint whose body is supposed to rise out its reliquary and wander around the town. They cite the story of those holy people who Matthew's Gospel tells us rose out of their tombs at the Resurrection - Matthew 27:52-53.
I even saw one chap post apparent photos of this Saint wandering around on a WhatsApp group. It just looked like a priest walking past the building to me, not a particularly unusual sight in Greece I wouldn't have thought.
I have no idea how any of this 'works'. On the island of Tortello in the Venetian lagoon there is a wonderful medieval fresco in the Basillica. One section shows the dead rising at the Last Judgement. As well as people rising in their shrouds there are wild beasts vomiting forth people they'd consumed. Lions and wolves, but also elephants and camels. Who knew the latter were carnivorous?
Whatever the case, I certainly don't have an issue with someone who might refer to a wicker-casket as their 'laundry basket' and so on.
The 'natural burial' we arranged for 'our Mam' worked out more expensive than a cremation but I felt it was well worth it but wish these things were more affordable than they are now. They are beyond the reach of many people.
@pease I don't think any revision of doctrine would be necessary - I can't think of any church that requires cremation. Bringing environmental considerations into the conversation from a church perspective is not at all the same as proscribing any particular behaviour. I'm not sure why there's the leap to proscribing things rather than encouraging congregations to at least have more open discussions about deliberately choosing more environmentally-friendly burial options, and encouraging their use from a Christian perspective. It's not like churches began to embrace Fairtrade based on a belief that non-Fairtrade products should be proscribed. I'm talking about the same kind of encouragement of a beneficial option rather than rejecting the existing options wholesale.
Thanks, Pomona.
I'm still thinking about your original point about it being odd that churches that promote environmental stewardship in other areas don't do so in relation to death, and why I don't think it's odd. And also exploring the issue about people not wanting to discuss death at all, and the factors that might feed into that.
A Rocha's approach to Eco Church gives it a theological framing (which they don't discuss very much). One part of that framing is the stewardship of the earth, the other is that human beings are an integral part of creation and that we do not stand apart from it or above it. I don't know if these are considered doctrines as such, but they are established subjects of Christian theological scrutiny.
More pertinently, the issues of bodily death and resurrection, conquering death, and eternal life, are pretty central to Christianity and Christian doctrine. The observation that Christians appear just as unwilling or unable to participate in conversation about death, let alone dead bodies and the environment, suggests to me that something has gone badly wrong.
I don't find this odd, in the sense that it's long been clear to me that many westerners and western Christians don't like talking about death. So I don't find it at all strange that for Christians, the environment is not part of whatever little conversation there is about end of life decisions.
I don't know who would take the lead on this in various church or denominational contexts, but I'm not the least bit surprised that A Rocha hasn't made it part of the Eco Church programme.
I kind of like the fact that here everyone gets the same type of coffin (ok, I think there might be a choice of 2) because that's all the Co-op keep on hand. And, yes, the manager of Co-op Food also runs Co-op Funeral Services.
Am I the only person reading this to immediately think of Soylent Green?
No .... I certainly did .....
An 'interesting' film!
…
That doesn't mean I don't respect other people's wishes and views and I know many of the comments here about being shoved in sacks and 'put in the oven' and so on are tongue-in-cheek and meant to be taken in jest.
…
But some of the 'You can do what you like with my carcass, I won't be here,' comments do make me think that we Orthodox have a point. Matter matters. The body is important. 'Shove me in a sack, I don't care,' type comments rather suggest the opposite.
I am not laying this charge to those who are making considered and dignified cremation plans nor those who have described very movingly how they treasure or commemorate their departed loved ones through their cremated remains.
Far from it.
…
But some of the comments here have suggested, to me at least, a somewhat flippant and cavalier attitude to human bodies that are 'fearfully and wonderfully made.'
I may well get roasted for suggesting that and suffer premature cremation or burial in Hell and yes, I may be over-reacting to gallows-humour. In which case I apologise.
But you can see my point I hope.
How I wish I couldn't.
It is quite possible to believe that our bodies are fearfully and wonderfully made, and at the same believe that death ends our attachment to them, and that the only remaining question is how to dispose of them. These beliefs are neither flippant, nor tongue-in-cheek, nor made in jest, nor gallows humour. They just happen not to be your beliefs.
I kind of like the fact that here everyone gets the same type of coffin (ok, I think there might be a choice of 2) because that's all the Co-op keep on hand. And, yes, the manager of Co-op Food also runs Co-op Funeral Services.
Am I the only person reading this to immediately think of Soylent Green?
Well, seeing as you've started down this track, there is a Monty Python sketch for most occasions: https://youtu.be/EF6IShnqPY0
More pertinently, the issues of bodily death and resurrection, conquering death, and eternal life, are pretty central to Christianity and Christian doctrine. The observation that Christians appear just as unwilling or unable to participate in conversation about death, let alone dead bodies and the environment, suggests to me that something has gone badly wrong.
I don't find this odd, in the sense that it's long been clear to me that many westerners and western Christians don't like talking about death. So I don't find it at all strange that for Christians, the environment is not part of whatever little conversation there is about end of life decisions.
I don't know who would take the lead on this in various church or denominational contexts, but I'm not the least bit surprised that A Rocha hasn't made it part of the Eco Church programme.
This thread would suggest to me that many Christians are quite relaxed to talk about death, given the opportunity. And this is my own experience of wider population too; I regularly have conversations about death with people once they find out I lecture in the subject. And when I used to do re-enactment as a WW1 nurse, members of the public would come up and ask me how I coped with all those young men dying. What is needed is the knowledge that such a discussion is welcome.
The death cafe movement (wider society so not necessarily Christian) has been popular for a number of years and I went to a death cafe hosted by the Methodist church at Greenbelt in 2018, alongside other talks about death. The Anglican church also has a programme for discussing death with members of the congregation https://www.churchofengland.org/life-events/funerals/after-funeral/what-gravetalk
I would certainly like to see more discussions about death and the environment, though. The course I teach on death, dying and bereavement recently added discussion of existential grief in relation to climate change.
In other news, this evening I will be giving a 2 hour undergraduate lecture on what makes a good death. I talk about death every week
My mother couldn't have been more relaxed about the whole thing. When my young sister and I once sat down with her to talk about what she wanted, her reply was something like, "My dears, I'll leave it to you!" and nothing more was ever said about it. (She was cremated and scattered in a river as we had done for my father - my favoured way to do it).
Would it be out of order to quote a paragraph here from an essay that appeared in an Iona Community book?
L ---- remarked that we were fluttering about the landscape like birds in search of a nesting place. We found it, though. It's a quiet place where the young River Clyde still runs fast, frolicking under an old bridge, with a good place for us to get down by the water. It wasn't very solemn or ceremonious: I simply emptied the urn into the river, watching the dust spread over the water, making patterns, disappearing into it, disappearing from us. Dust that had been an old man's body, discarded when he no longer needed it, became forever part of a young river, something that will endlessly renew itself for as long as there are rivers.
@Heavenlyannie I'm really interested to know if your work on death and dying ever comes up as a topic of conversation at your church, and if you've been able to eg do any talks on the subject there. I would be interested to know if the Reformed aspect of newfrontiers affects how they (or at least the preaching staff) approach death from a theological perspective as opposed to other charismatic churches. I also suspect that churches that attract more young families would be less likely to discuss death and dying.
I do think that British people at least are much better than they were, but I think perhaps the shyness around the subject is more to do with how intimate and personal it is rather than a fear of death itself - rather like the general British reluctance to talk about faith.
The actor Andrew Garfield went on Sesame Street to talk very movingly with Elmo about grief after Garfield's mother's death, which prompted a lot of discussion of the subject with younger people as has Garfield talking about his grief more widely - link to the Sesame Street clip here.
Both my parents’ ashes were scattered in the river at Bedford, a place of fond memories for all the family. I will probably have an eco burial at the local woodland burial ground.
No .... I certainly did .....
An 'interesting' film!
Yes, and the most poignant thing for me about it is that when Edward G Robinson filmed the final scene, the last day's acting he would ever do, in which his character dies, he knew that he had terminal cancer, but no one else did. Two months later he died.
My mother couldn't have been more relaxed about the whole thing. When my young sister and I once sat down with her to talk about what she wanted, her reply was something like, "My dears, I'll leave it to you!" and nothing more was ever said about it. (She was cremated and scattered in a river as we had done for my father - my favoured way to do it).
Would it be out of order to quote a paragraph here from an essay that appeared in an Iona Community book?
L ---- remarked that we were fluttering about the landscape like birds in search of a nesting place. We found it, though. It's a quiet place where the young River Clyde still runs fast, frolicking under an old bridge, with a good place for us to get down by the water. It wasn't very solemn or ceremonious: I simply emptied the urn into the river, watching the dust spread over the water, making patterns, disappearing into it, disappearing from us. Dust that had been an old man's body, discarded when he no longer needed it, became forever part of a young river, something that will endlessly renew itself for as long as there are rivers.
That's nice, S_T. We buried my Mum's ashes on the beach where we used to camp as a young family; but for me, a river might be more handy (well, handy for my kids). Except if I stay here it would be the Irwell (/Ship Canal!), or Medlock, or Irk, or Mersey... hmm
I suppose I might be more comfortable talking about death than most of my friends and family, and thinking about it. I remember when I first experienced what bereavement felt like, and working out what I needed to do to work through it. Regarding more recent experiences, thanks for putting a name to existential grief arising from climate change. It can be profound.
As an illustration of what happens when a group of people informed by Christianity have conversations about death, this thread has been intriguing.
It's good to hear that churches are taking a positive approach to death cafés. I remember having a conversation with churchgoing friends about death cafés a few years ago, and suggesting that churches ought to be well-placed to do this. As the CofE's GraveTalk page puts it, "The Church of England has been helping people think about these questions for centuries".
Does anyone know what's actually on the GraveTalk pack of cards? The CofE page says there are 52 of them, which immediately side-tracked me into Deck of Cards (the song), but Church House Publishing (and other suppliers) suggests its actually 50 cards, in 5 areas (so 10 cards each, I would guess). You pays your money…
Regarding death and the environment, I still think that, for Christians and churches, it can be hard to avoid the theology.
In the UK, in light of Desmond Tutu's instructions that his body should undergo alkaline hydrolysis, the CofE's General Synod was asked to consider eco-friendly forms of disposal, including the theological implications of alkaline hydrolysis and human composting.
In the US, it appears that individual states have been introducing bills to legalise human composting, typically provoking push-back from theologically conservative churches and movements. TFP (a Catholic outfit) calls human composting "the ultimate denial of the soul".
Human composting is not just a practical alternative to burial. It is an eco-religious act. Its advocates openly promote it as an expression of social justice and ecological fervor. It fits into a pantheistic worldview where everything is reduced to matter in constant transformation.
They assert that
One is not free to dispose of the body as if it were trash or fertilizer. The body that is buried belongs to the person who will one day be resurrected and will once again enjoy possession of it.
Returning to John Donne
One humour of our dead body produces worms, and those worms suck and exhaust all other humour, and then all dies, and all dries, and moulders into dust, and that dust is blown into the river, and that puddled water tumbled into the sea, and that ebbs and flows in infinite revolutions, and still, still God knows in what cabinet every seed-pearl lies, in what part of the world every grain of every man's dust lies
…
he beckons for the bodies of his saints, and in the twinkling of an eye, that body that was scattered over all the elements, is sat down at the right hand of God, in a glorious resurrection.
There's a question that Donne does not address. What happens to these dispersed grains of dust? The short answer is that they get recycled. Some of them find their way back into the food that we eat. Each one of us is fearfully and wonderfully assembled from particles from the past. Across the billions of people now alive, it seems more than likely that a few of these particles were once incorporated into the bodies of others when they died, and that some will still be incorporated in our bodies when, in turn, we die. Come the bodily resurrection, to whose body will those traces that have been shared between more than one body, down the dusty river of time, belong?
Mr P is buried in a woodland burial ground, his grave marked by a tree and a small slate plaque. In summer it can be quite hard to locate if the grasses have not been mown for a while. I chose a wooden coffin, permitted if no glue used and no metal handles etc. no more expensive than wicker. Mr P loved wood and collected many wooden items. At one time he made some furniture, bookcases, boxes etc. Sad to say I had to get rid of these but they went to good homes.
I visit the grave infrequently but more often than if it were in a cemetery, as the woodland area makes a pleasant place to walk, even alone. I don’t talk to him there or weep. I don’t think of him being there, as such. His body was just a carrier, but sometimes it is good to focus.
I am not sure I believe in the literal resurrection of the body. One Easter film I saw a while back showed the risen Christ appearing in different forms ( played by various actors) to various disciples. I found this helpful.
I went once to a bereavement group about two months after my husband died. I did not find it helpful. I did not want to hear other people’s stories eg of their son who died ten years ago. It was held in a church but apart from an invitation to light a candle there was no religious element.
What I had found useful a few years previously was a course run by another church on topics relevant to older people. It covered finance, pensions, benefits, social care, exercise, social life and activities, bereavement, wills, funerals etc with input from various specialists. The meeting included some discussion, and a short passage from the Bible was used for a reflection.
Last year I was invited to another similar series but with more Christian input, but I did not go to this. I am not sure why. Maybe I was afraid of seeming uncaring.
Also helpful was a short series of counselling, about a year after he died. It helped me know that my head was in the right place. That it is ok not to be heart broken, ok to keep up with and add to my list of activities, ok to build a life for myself, not one built around the restrictions his health imposed, that there are not necessarily five stages of grief, that emotions can occur in any order, or some not at all, all whilst cherishing his memory and appreciating the value he brought to my life and to the lives of others. It helps that my family are close by, and because Mr P was not their father, are in a different place.
Behind all this is the sure and certain hope that he is raised with Christ.
@Puzzler no need to apologise for length, I also found it very enjoyable. I think it all sounds very healthy.
I personally believe in a corporeal/physical Resurrection but I don't think what state the body is in affects that. Resurrection from the dead is miraculous even if it happens with a perfectly intact body - the leap from no resurrection to resurrection happening at all is more miraculous than the leap from resurrection from a body to resurrection from cremains, if that makes sense.
I personally believe in a corporeal/physical Resurrection but I don't think what state the body is in affects that. Resurrection from the dead is miraculous even if it happens with a perfectly intact body - the leap from no resurrection to resurrection happening at all is more miraculous than the leap from resurrection from a body to resurrection from cremains, if that makes sense.
Absolutely. Imagine the state Jesus' human body must have been in after his passion and crucifixion, but before his glorious resurrection.
I have a copy of the Grave Talk cards somewhere, I will dig them out at some point and have a look (I’m a bit busy with work at the moment, November is full on marking and I’m currently working through a mountain of essays).
Pomona, one of the church elders approached me about how we discuss death in the church a few years ago as they felt our, comparatively young, congregation were getting older and the church needed to provide more support for those in the later stages of life. I bought them the Grave Talk resources and discussed death cafes. Perhaps I need to revisit this subject with them.
The 5 stages of grief theory has little evidence behind it, Kubler-Ross wrote her original work on dying, not grief, and even she said some stages might overlap or be omitted. I find her original work quite dismissive of spirituality, too.
There are multiple models of grief, Freud even wrote one in 1917, and my favourite is Continuing Bonds, which is built on the concept that our relationship does not end when someone dies, it changes, and that maintaining a connection with them is normal and healthy; we don’t need to ‘get over’ our loss and move on.
Yes, Heavenlyannie one of Freuds gems is that guilt is a way of maintaining contact, but sometimes excessive. Agree we don't need to get over it, in the sense of cutting off.
It's good to hear that churches are taking a positive approach to death cafés.
I don’t know if death cafés haven’t jumped The Pond yet or haven’t made it to my part of the States or if they’re happening all around me and I’m just oblivious, but “death cafés” is a new term to me. Can someone describe what a death cafés is? I suspect it’s not what my imagination is conjuring up.
My friend's wife died seven years ago (today is the anniversary) and he found that bereavement counselling and support groups made everything worse. After two years he met a lovely, lively lady and it was then that he was able to move ahead. They are both now in their 80s.
@Heavenlyannie best of luck with marking season - also, given that Death Studies as an academic field is quite a small one, I wonder if you know any of the people in the department at the University of Winchester? They do a Death, Culture & Religion MA. I am more familiar with the hagiography and depictions of the Black Death end of Death Studies via medievalist friends, but I wish humanities subjects provided more space to talk about death as a subject before the graduate degree level.
I think in general it's good to remember that it's not only older people who experience bereavement - there's often not that much aimed at teenagers and young adults, as the relatively few resources for children seem to be more aimed at younger children losing eg a grandparent. Younger people also generally die more sudden/unexpected deaths, which can add another type of difficulty to the bereavement - not that bereavement after a long illness is less painful, but not being able to prepare puts you on the back foot from the start (this can also be especially painful if you hadn't been able to right any wrongs between you before the person died). I think talking about death and bereavement in an open way is really important in church in general, but that means not forgetting to talk about it with young people specifically as well as the wider adult congregation.
I am curious to know how joined-up bereavement discussion is with pregnancy loss/infant loss discussion, especially in a church context - I haven't been part of a congregation where there was pregnancy or infant loss that was made publicly known while I was there, so I don't have any experience of my own.
Comments
Whether or not true, I don't know, but I understood the reason for mandating concrete vaults in some jurisdictions was the undertakers' lobby ensuring a lucrative market for themselves in completely unnecessary goods and services.
How many churches or ministers have changed their policies to proscribe or discommend cremation on environmental grounds?
I understand that some US States stipulate that embalming must take place if the corpse is to be displayed in an open coffin.
As a caveat to my comments upthread, the Orthodox avoid embalming if possible but will alow it if there is a long gap before the burial or climate conditions make it unfeasible or if relatives request it.
I don't think we'd over-rule relatives wishes.
I would certainly favour wicker or cardboard or other 'eco' coffins or simply a shroud rather than hefty wooden ones with lots of brass fittings but I'm not sure whether that's a more general preference in Orthodox circles.
I doubt I'm alone in being surprised at the cost of the cheapest MFI foil-wrapped wood-effect chipboard wardrobe my Mum was cremated in a couple of years back. I was glad the pall-bearers didn't attempt to lift it by the 'brass' (plastic) handles. It'd be nice to avoid all that and go in the oven in a sack, but I guess if my kids have other ideas, that'll be up to them. Maybe I could make one myself if I looked up the regs (old pallets are free...), but then I'd have to keep it somewhere.
It's possible things are not quite so bleak as we might fear. It's a shame the former shipmate (I hope I have the right one!) I mentioned upthread is no longer around - he was the Chief Engineer in a waste-burning power station in the UK. I enjoyed a long conversation one time he was visiting the North about flue-gas scrubbing, filtration etc etc (I was a bit sceptical about CHP from waste) and he mentioned that the industry his was most closely allied to, was that of firms building crematoria.
(Incidentally a friend works for a former farmer who bought two environment-agency approved pet cremation systems (I expect there's a word for that...I imply the size of domestic pets, not horses) at £70k each, and makes considerable money dealing with deceased pets around Manchester and Cheshire. 70 grand implies quite a lot of clean-up tech built-in. I don't know what the consumables, fuel and servicing costs set him back, but I am told a dog costs about £300. We enquired whether the deal ran to music during the 'service', and were told most owners liked a bit of Bach.)
@mark_in_manchester I would certainly welcome cremation becoming greener or at least less polluting (and also the same for wood-burning stoves...). I know that cremation is popular with pet owners as it reduces the risk of wildlife digging up buried remains, and it's also a lot easier to take cremains with you if you move house. I'm not at all opposed to cremation from a moral or theological angle, I just dislike the environmental effects.
I once took a funeral for someone who had made their own coffin and used it as a coffee table….
She believed cremation was environmentally the best option but I felt a 'natural burial' would be more in keeping with her environmental interests and with my own theological convictions.
My brother, who isn't Orthodox, came to the same conclusion and booked himself a 'natural burial' on the same site for when the time comes.
Ok, we were fortunate in having such a site in my home town. Where I live now the town is rapidly running out of burial space for those that want it.
My sister-in-law decided to bury her mother after she had seen us bury rather than cremate her sister, my late wife.
I was pleased she did.
That doesn't mean I'm 'evangelical' about burial and aim to convert everyone else away from cremation. But I'd be lying if said I wouldn't be pleased to hear of people opting from burial rather than cremation where possible.
That doesn't mean I don't respect other people's wishes and views and I know many of the comments here about being shoved in sacks and 'put in the oven' and so on are tongue-in-cheek and meant to be taken in jest.
I don't believe that people are cruel or heartless if they cremate their loved ones rather than lowering them gently into the ground. Mind you, my late wife's coffin went down with an alarming bump which sent my daughters and myself clinging to one another for support.
If nothing else it was a visceral reminder of the reality and finality of the situation.
I've shovelled soil onto a coffin at a Jewish wedding and that felt very visceral indeed. Which was rather the point.
I can certainly see the value in people keeping urns with cremated remains or scattering them in a favourite spot. That's visceral and cathartic too.
But some of the 'You can do what you like with my carcass, I won't be here,' comments do make me think that we Orthodox have a point. Matter matters. The body is important. 'Shove me in a sack, I don't care,' type comments rather suggest the opposite.
I am not laying this charge to those who are making considered and dignified cremation plans nor those who have described very movingly how they treasure or commemorate their departed loved ones through their cremated remains.
Far from it.
Nor am I underestimating the barriers to burial where space, state legislation and concrete vaults are the norm.
But some of the comments here have suggested, to me at least, a somewhat flippant and cavalier attitude to human bodies that are 'fearfully and wonderfully made.'
I may well get roasted for suggesting that and suffer premature cremation or burial in Hell and yes, I may be over-reacting to gallows-humour. In which case I apologise.
But you can see my point I hope.
Put it in the living room and call it a conversation piece?
For some of us, flippant humour is just part of the way we deal with the world. For Dad, we had a natural wicker coffin, which very much fitted with the way he lived, and the things he enjoyed and prioritized. I am also completely certain that he would have referred to it as a laundry basket.
The body is important, but "shove me in a hole in a sack" can still be done with appropriate respect for the shell that used to contain a person we love. There is no need for a respectful funeral to need to be expensive.
Oh; I mentioned getting the sack (
(On 'matter matters' I often feel I am way too far down that road, as the 'tidy house' thread might let on - I enjoy being alive in the world and interacting with lumps and lumps of 'stuff' which I probably give too much priority to. Now and again a more ascetic approach would probably do me good. And my wife could find space in the airing cupboard).
I looked it up last night - lots of local authorities give really decent design guidance on what to do if you want to DIY (3/4" ply base and sides, 1/4" ply top for a high-end piece, chipboard and poster paint for economy). I'm going to see Dad, the master of economy, next week; we'll discuss it
Yikes! Note to self, edit before posting!
Sorry folks. It was a funeral of course.
Am I the only person reading this to immediately think of Soylent Green?
Sure, and I'm partial to gallows-humour myself @Pomona - and am also very partial to hoarding stuff which evokes memories or carries some 'freight'. I also have a very developed 'sense of place' - genius locii and all that.
I suppose it's the way I'm wired and may be one of the reasons why I was drawn to religious traditions which emphasise history, the physical dimension and so on.
I'm not saying that other Christian traditions don't do that, but we do it in a particular way that may be more in the 'foreground' perhaps.
It can certainly be over-realised and sometimes get out of hand.
I know there are stories in Greece about a particular Saint whose body is supposed to rise out its reliquary and wander around the town. They cite the story of those holy people who Matthew's Gospel tells us rose out of their tombs at the Resurrection - Matthew 27:52-53.
I even saw one chap post apparent photos of this Saint wandering around on a WhatsApp group. It just looked like a priest walking past the building to me, not a particularly unusual sight in Greece I wouldn't have thought.
I have no idea how any of this 'works'. On the island of Tortello in the Venetian lagoon there is a wonderful medieval fresco in the Basillica. One section shows the dead rising at the Last Judgement. As well as people rising in their shrouds there are wild beasts vomiting forth people they'd consumed. Lions and wolves, but also elephants and camels. Who knew the latter were carnivorous?
Whatever the case, I certainly don't have an issue with someone who might refer to a wicker-casket as their 'laundry basket' and so on.
The 'natural burial' we arranged for 'our Mam' worked out more expensive than a cremation but I felt it was well worth it but wish these things were more affordable than they are now. They are beyond the reach of many people.
I'm still thinking about your original point about it being odd that churches that promote environmental stewardship in other areas don't do so in relation to death, and why I don't think it's odd. And also exploring the issue about people not wanting to discuss death at all, and the factors that might feed into that.
A Rocha's approach to Eco Church gives it a theological framing (which they don't discuss very much). One part of that framing is the stewardship of the earth, the other is that human beings are an integral part of creation and that we do not stand apart from it or above it. I don't know if these are considered doctrines as such, but they are established subjects of Christian theological scrutiny.
More pertinently, the issues of bodily death and resurrection, conquering death, and eternal life, are pretty central to Christianity and Christian doctrine. The observation that Christians appear just as unwilling or unable to participate in conversation about death, let alone dead bodies and the environment, suggests to me that something has gone badly wrong.
I don't find this odd, in the sense that it's long been clear to me that many westerners and western Christians don't like talking about death. So I don't find it at all strange that for Christians, the environment is not part of whatever little conversation there is about end of life decisions.
I don't know who would take the lead on this in various church or denominational contexts, but I'm not the least bit surprised that A Rocha hasn't made it part of the Eco Church programme.
No .... I certainly did .....
An 'interesting' film!
It is quite possible to believe that our bodies are fearfully and wonderfully made, and at the same believe that death ends our attachment to them, and that the only remaining question is how to dispose of them. These beliefs are neither flippant, nor tongue-in-cheek, nor made in jest, nor gallows humour. They just happen not to be your beliefs.
I've been thinking about it since BroJames posted John Donne's well-crafted sermon.
My inner goth teenager found the image rather beautiful!
I would certainly echo your thoughts about making more eco-friendly burial options more accessible and affordable.
Well, seeing as you've started down this track, there is a Monty Python sketch for most occasions:
https://youtu.be/EF6IShnqPY0
This thread would suggest to me that many Christians are quite relaxed to talk about death, given the opportunity. And this is my own experience of wider population too; I regularly have conversations about death with people once they find out I lecture in the subject. And when I used to do re-enactment as a WW1 nurse, members of the public would come up and ask me how I coped with all those young men dying. What is needed is the knowledge that such a discussion is welcome.
The death cafe movement (wider society so not necessarily Christian) has been popular for a number of years and I went to a death cafe hosted by the Methodist church at Greenbelt in 2018, alongside other talks about death. The Anglican church also has a programme for discussing death with members of the congregation https://www.churchofengland.org/life-events/funerals/after-funeral/what-gravetalk
I would certainly like to see more discussions about death and the environment, though. The course I teach on death, dying and bereavement recently added discussion of existential grief in relation to climate change.
In other news, this evening I will be giving a 2 hour undergraduate lecture on what makes a good death. I talk about death every week
It's good that people like you are teaching about and discussing these things @Heavenlyannie.
That all sounds very healthy to me.
Would it be out of order to quote a paragraph here from an essay that appeared in an Iona Community book?
L ---- remarked that we were fluttering about the landscape like birds in search of a nesting place. We found it, though. It's a quiet place where the young River Clyde still runs fast, frolicking under an old bridge, with a good place for us to get down by the water. It wasn't very solemn or ceremonious: I simply emptied the urn into the river, watching the dust spread over the water, making patterns, disappearing into it, disappearing from us. Dust that had been an old man's body, discarded when he no longer needed it, became forever part of a young river, something that will endlessly renew itself for as long as there are rivers.
I do think that British people at least are much better than they were, but I think perhaps the shyness around the subject is more to do with how intimate and personal it is rather than a fear of death itself - rather like the general British reluctance to talk about faith.
The actor Andrew Garfield went on Sesame Street to talk very movingly with Elmo about grief after Garfield's mother's death, which prompted a lot of discussion of the subject with younger people as has Garfield talking about his grief more widely - link to the Sesame Street clip here.
No!
Yes, and the most poignant thing for me about it is that when Edward G Robinson filmed the final scene, the last day's acting he would ever do, in which his character dies, he knew that he had terminal cancer, but no one else did. Two months later he died.
That's nice, S_T. We buried my Mum's ashes on the beach where we used to camp as a young family; but for me, a river might be more handy (well, handy for my kids). Except if I stay here it would be the Irwell (/Ship Canal!), or Medlock, or Irk, or Mersey... hmm
I suppose I might be more comfortable talking about death than most of my friends and family, and thinking about it. I remember when I first experienced what bereavement felt like, and working out what I needed to do to work through it. Regarding more recent experiences, thanks for putting a name to existential grief arising from climate change. It can be profound.
As an illustration of what happens when a group of people informed by Christianity have conversations about death, this thread has been intriguing.
It's good to hear that churches are taking a positive approach to death cafés. I remember having a conversation with churchgoing friends about death cafés a few years ago, and suggesting that churches ought to be well-placed to do this. As the CofE's GraveTalk page puts it, "The Church of England has been helping people think about these questions for centuries".
Does anyone know what's actually on the GraveTalk pack of cards? The CofE page says there are 52 of them, which immediately side-tracked me into Deck of Cards (the song), but Church House Publishing (and other suppliers) suggests its actually 50 cards, in 5 areas (so 10 cards each, I would guess). You pays your money…
In the UK, in light of Desmond Tutu's instructions that his body should undergo alkaline hydrolysis, the CofE's General Synod was asked to consider eco-friendly forms of disposal, including the theological implications of alkaline hydrolysis and human composting.
In the US, it appears that individual states have been introducing bills to legalise human composting, typically provoking push-back from theologically conservative churches and movements. TFP (a Catholic outfit) calls human composting "the ultimate denial of the soul". They assert that
Returning to John Donne There's a question that Donne does not address. What happens to these dispersed grains of dust? The short answer is that they get recycled. Some of them find their way back into the food that we eat. Each one of us is fearfully and wonderfully assembled from particles from the past. Across the billions of people now alive, it seems more than likely that a few of these particles were once incorporated into the bodies of others when they died, and that some will still be incorporated in our bodies when, in turn, we die. Come the bodily resurrection, to whose body will those traces that have been shared between more than one body, down the dusty river of time, belong?
Mr P is buried in a woodland burial ground, his grave marked by a tree and a small slate plaque. In summer it can be quite hard to locate if the grasses have not been mown for a while. I chose a wooden coffin, permitted if no glue used and no metal handles etc. no more expensive than wicker. Mr P loved wood and collected many wooden items. At one time he made some furniture, bookcases, boxes etc. Sad to say I had to get rid of these but they went to good homes.
I visit the grave infrequently but more often than if it were in a cemetery, as the woodland area makes a pleasant place to walk, even alone. I don’t talk to him there or weep. I don’t think of him being there, as such. His body was just a carrier, but sometimes it is good to focus.
I am not sure I believe in the literal resurrection of the body. One Easter film I saw a while back showed the risen Christ appearing in different forms ( played by various actors) to various disciples. I found this helpful.
I went once to a bereavement group about two months after my husband died. I did not find it helpful. I did not want to hear other people’s stories eg of their son who died ten years ago. It was held in a church but apart from an invitation to light a candle there was no religious element.
What I had found useful a few years previously was a course run by another church on topics relevant to older people. It covered finance, pensions, benefits, social care, exercise, social life and activities, bereavement, wills, funerals etc with input from various specialists. The meeting included some discussion, and a short passage from the Bible was used for a reflection.
Last year I was invited to another similar series but with more Christian input, but I did not go to this. I am not sure why. Maybe I was afraid of seeming uncaring.
Also helpful was a short series of counselling, about a year after he died. It helped me know that my head was in the right place. That it is ok not to be heart broken, ok to keep up with and add to my list of activities, ok to build a life for myself, not one built around the restrictions his health imposed, that there are not necessarily five stages of grief, that emotions can occur in any order, or some not at all, all whilst cherishing his memory and appreciating the value he brought to my life and to the lives of others. It helps that my family are close by, and because Mr P was not their father, are in a different place.
Behind all this is the sure and certain hope that he is raised with Christ.
Apologies for the long post.
Amen to that!
I personally believe in a corporeal/physical Resurrection but I don't think what state the body is in affects that. Resurrection from the dead is miraculous even if it happens with a perfectly intact body - the leap from no resurrection to resurrection happening at all is more miraculous than the leap from resurrection from a body to resurrection from cremains, if that makes sense.
Absolutely. Imagine the state Jesus' human body must have been in after his passion and crucifixion, but before his glorious resurrection.
Pomona, one of the church elders approached me about how we discuss death in the church a few years ago as they felt our, comparatively young, congregation were getting older and the church needed to provide more support for those in the later stages of life. I bought them the Grave Talk resources and discussed death cafes. Perhaps I need to revisit this subject with them.
There are multiple models of grief, Freud even wrote one in 1917, and my favourite is Continuing Bonds, which is built on the concept that our relationship does not end when someone dies, it changes, and that maintaining a connection with them is normal and healthy; we don’t need to ‘get over’ our loss and move on.
And ditto to @Puzzler ; enjoyed yours and all the posts here.
They are sometimes called 'Bereavement Cafes'. One of the local churches here has held them from time to time.
I've not been to any of the sessions although I was tempted to when feeling the loss of my wife very keenly.
I think in general it's good to remember that it's not only older people who experience bereavement - there's often not that much aimed at teenagers and young adults, as the relatively few resources for children seem to be more aimed at younger children losing eg a grandparent. Younger people also generally die more sudden/unexpected deaths, which can add another type of difficulty to the bereavement - not that bereavement after a long illness is less painful, but not being able to prepare puts you on the back foot from the start (this can also be especially painful if you hadn't been able to right any wrongs between you before the person died). I think talking about death and bereavement in an open way is really important in church in general, but that means not forgetting to talk about it with young people specifically as well as the wider adult congregation.
I am curious to know how joined-up bereavement discussion is with pregnancy loss/infant loss discussion, especially in a church context - I haven't been part of a congregation where there was pregnancy or infant loss that was made publicly known while I was there, so I don't have any experience of my own.