but all the 'o's in Bogoroditse are still 'o's - Russian vowel decay does not apply.
It was some of the grammar that was changed several centuries ago, not the pronunciation. You do now hear Russian choirs and clergy use a pronunciation closer to modern Russian. This seems to be an innovation over the last 50 years.
Boldly Ruining Other People's Languages is a feature of church choirs.
The local rabbi was generous in their assessment of local efforts at Hebrew. Appropriate I'd say, when the efforts were devout and well intentioned.
I reckon several here will have had fun with Old Church Slavic in Bogoroditse Devo
(Rachmaninoff All Night Vigil) - perhaps a smaller pool of people to offend with that one!
Heron
I once heard an amateur contralto soloist render all the eszetts (ßs) in a piece of Bach as Bs.
Boldly Ruining Other People's Languages is a feature of church choirs.
The local rabbi was generous in their assessment of local efforts at Hebrew. Appropriate I'd say, when the efforts were devout and well intentioned.
I reckon several here will have had fun with Old Church Slavic in Bogoroditse Devo
(Rachmaninoff All Night Vigil) - perhaps a smaller pool of people to offend with that one!
Heron
I once heard an amateur contralto soloist render all the eszetts (ßs) in a piece of Bach as Bs.
Yesterday afternoon we had the recording of the Christmas Day broadcast service (followed by a dinner). A highlight was "O Holy Night" whereof many of us have had about as much as we need, but this version was great - much jazz and percussion, arranged by Mark Hayes. That's a name I shall be looking out for.
Boldly Ruining Other People's Languages is a feature of church choirs.
The local rabbi was generous in their assessment of local efforts at Hebrew. Appropriate I'd say, when the efforts were devout and well intentioned.
I reckon several here will have had fun with Old Church Slavic in Bogoroditse Devo
(Rachmaninoff All Night Vigil) - perhaps a smaller pool of people to offend with that one!
Heron
I once heard an amateur contralto soloist render all the eszetts (ßs) in a piece of Bach as Bs.
🤣
It’s not just we English speakers who do it, though. I once heard a recording of Messiah in which the first words heard from the tenor soloist (who was Swedish, I think) were “Comfort ye, my pee-oh-play.”
And being a recording, that means many people had the opportunity to catch it before it went public.
That reminds me of the reading of the Passion a good few Good Fridays ago. The part of the narrator was taken by a woman who had been into amateur dramatics and who spoke with a very posh accent. Each time that Pilate was mentioned she pronounced it Pilartay, and it was a lot of times.
The lady has been dead for many years, but that memory lives on in the parish.
I once heard an amateur contralto soloist render all the eszetts (ßs) in a piece of Bach as Bs.
OMG. I overheard a young man mansplaining to his girlfriend that the German word for "street" was "Strabe." Rhymes with "babe." SMH. Quite a ridiculous Herrklärung.
I once heard an amateur contralto soloist render all the eszetts (ßs) in a piece of Bach as Bs.
OMG. I overheard a young man mansplaining to his girlfriend that the German word for "street" was "Strabe." Rhymes with "babe." SMH. Quite a ridiculous Herrklärung.
An American once told me that he and his girl friend had attended Mass in Lourdes in the basilica of St Piex (pronounce as 'picks' ).This was the underground basilica of St Pie X (French for St Pius the Tenth)
I suspect that the renditions we used to do of the Rachmaninoff would have had the great man turning in his grave, but we tried, and it's such a glorious piece ...
A vast number.
Its almost worth the journey to drive to Llanfihangel-yng-Ngwynfa with the car satnav turned on just to hear what the voice does with the name.
Perhaps we could not stray much longer from the subject of the thread - what we're singing - please. This thread naturally resets itself on a Sunday, but it's only Tuesday...
I swear I learned how to pronounce the Bogoroditse Devo from a monk at the back of the Aleksander Nevsky church in St Petersburg, or possibly walking along Nevsky Prospekt away from it. I do sometimes wonder whether that actually happened or it was just some kind of fever dream, but I swear it did. I was only 20 at the time.
This was after a concert in which the monastery choir had sung many such works, and possibly the thing itself.
I studied Russian and spent half my year abroad in St Petersburg
A vast number.
Its almost worth the journey to drive to Llanfihangel-yng-Ngwynfa with the car satnav turned on just to hear what the voice does with the name.
One of our local bus companies tried synthesised voice announcements for the stops. They just about managed the English names, the Welsh ones were unspeakable. Fortunately they disappeared after a few months. Recently they've started introducing new ones which are much better.
Our Place had a very good turn-out for the Carol Service on Sunday afternoon - 91 in church, when our Sunday average is only 25...
My Spy can't remember what they sang, though I think most of the congregational carols would have been 'traditional'. However, While shepherds watched was sung (as it was last year) to Cranbrook, aka Ilkley Moor - a Kentish tune by one Thomas Clark...and a great improvement on the usual offering.
I’ve sung ‘While shepherds watched’ to Ilkley Moor during carol singing at a Victorian Christmas re-enactment, the conductor (Dickens) thought we were having him on when it was suggested. I’m sure the audience thought we were doing one song to the tune of another rather than singing the proper tune.
For those of you who enjoy pairing words with the wrong tunes, I'd recommend a Farcebark page called In Quires and Places where they Meme; at this time of year they feature "Cursèd Carols" which will give you serious heebie-jeebies if you enjoy seasonal church music!
It's worth noting that you can sing Hark, the herald angels sing to "Aberystwyth" and Once in royal David's city to "Cwm Rhondda".
Whether you should is, perhaps, another matter ...
Mary, blessed teenage mother (possibly Black Madonna, but probably another tune of 87 87 77 metre) O come, O come, Emmanuel (Veni Emmanuel) The angel Gabriel from heaven came (Birjina Gaztettobat Zegoen) - this will be sung by cantor(s) during Communion Virgin-born, we bow before thee (Quem Pastores) Long ago, prophets knew (Personent Hodie)
I don't yet know what they have planned for next week's 'CHRISTmass' services, but I'm sure Baby Jesus will be pleased to have 'Happy Birthday' sung to him once again on his special day. The St Stephen's Day Mass will no doubt feature, as usual, Good King Wenceslas - a ditty which has nothing to do with the Incarnation, or with the Martyrdom of Deacon Stephen...
I'm guessing a lot of people are doing what we are doing. So, no morning services, but rather Carols by [electric] Candlelight this afternoon - A budget Service of 5 out of 9 Lessons and 2 thirds of the Carols.
O Come O Come Emmanuel (Veni Emmanuel)
O Little Town of Bethlehem (Forest Green)
Once in Royal David's City (Irby)
O Holy Night (Cantique De Noel)
King of Kings (Brooke Ligertwood)
Hark The Herald Angels (Mendelssohn)
All three services at Our Place today are carol services. In place of 9 o'clock communion we had traditional lessons (5) & carols (6) to organ accompaniment. We sang:
Joy to the World - ANTIOCH
O Little Town of Bethlehem - FOREST GREEN
What Child Is This - GREENSLEEVES
See Him Lying on a Bed of Straw - CALYPSO CAROL
O Come, All Ye Faithful - ADESTE FIDELES
Hark! The Herald Angels Sing - MENDELSSOHN
I expect that the worship band led a similar selection at the mid morning "carols for all ages", probably with more songs aimed at the children. This evening's service will be led by choir and small orchestra and is the one most likely to attract those locals who seldom set foot in church.
I'm guessing a lot of people are doing what we are doing. So, no morning services, but rather Carols by [electric] Candlelight this afternoon - A budget Service of 5 out of 9 Lessons and 2 thirds of the Carols.
Precisely (we have no choir) but we will have real candles!
In place of a sermon, we had the Sunday School's Nativity play this morning, which featured one of the more vocal children as the Grumpy Innkeeper, who kept trying to get to sleep and being woken up. It was all rather fun, and we were invited to join in with:
Ding! Dong! Merrily on high Away in a manger
The regular hymns were:
O come, O come, Emmanuel - Veni Emmanuel For I'm building a people of power Long ago, prophets knew - Personent Hodie Make me a channel of your peace Go, tell it on the mountain - traditional
There’s a children’s Christmas book from a few years ago based on the idea of the innkeeper getting woken up by all the visitors, so they probably got the idea of the play from that.
Compromise by having pauses, but using a plainsong style accompaniment. My outrage is triggered by accompaniments that have one chord per note of the tune.
I think the whole carol should be sung as a plainchan: flexibly, in whole phrases and without bar lines. But it never is.
You're probably right, though omitting a pause in the refrain is at least a step in the right direction.
I don't know how many turned up at Our Place this morning, but (as I posted yesterday) they had a good selection of suitable hymns. For some years now, our Carol Service has been held on Advent 3, which means that there is usually a breathing-space between it and the next 'CHRISTmass' services...
I like the idea of incorporating some sort of Nativity Play/Crib Service within the Advent 4 Eucharist, if resources don't permit of a Crib Service on Christmas Eve. Our Place's Crib Service has been very sparsely attended in recent years, possibly due to its late timing (5pm - other Places have theirs at around 3pm/330pm) or to a surfeit of school Nativity Plays etc. over the past few weeks!
On hymns today, Uppsala Cathedral had (inter alia) Alleluia, sing to Jesus (Hyfrydol) and Creator of the stars of night (Conditor Alme Siderum). They started with what is AIUI a very popular Marian hymn in Sweden - the first verse translates thus:
Hail, Mother of the Lord, O Mary!
Praised on Earth, O Mary!
Come forth, O Cherubim, and sing,
O Seraphim, sing with her the praises of the Lord!
Blessed, blessed, blessed, Mary!
The tune is similar to (but not quite the same as) that sung to Hail, holy Queen, enthroned above in more Catholic circles.
O come, O come Emmanuel (massacred by guitar and drums) One thing remains (Your love never fails, never gives up, never runs out on me) Light of the world (Here I am to worship) God so loved (a Matt Crocker/Marty Sampson Hillsong number that was new to me)
Off to the lessons and carols service at our local anglican place this evening.
O come, O come Emmanuel - with a pause in the middle of the refrain (doesn't everyone?)
We don’t. No barlines in our book either.
Today, we had:
“We Return” (as described on Nov. 30)
“Love Has Come”/BRING A TORCH
“Blest Be the God of Israel” (Song of Zechariah)/MERLE’S TUNE
“Awake! Awake, and Greet the New Morn”/REJOICE, REJOICE
“Watchman, Tell Us of the Night”/ABERYSTWYTH (sung antiphonally)
O come O come Emmanuel (without pause 🤣)
Magnificat
Her virgin eyes saw God incarnate born (Ellers)
The angel Gabriel
Thou didst leave thy throne (Margaret)
All went well, they seemed to enjoy the last one.
Mattins in a very conservative rural place who were observing
St Thomas the Apostle (amazingly but it is the old BCP date)
Who dreads yet undismayed (Monks Gate)
Come thou long expected Jesus (Cross of Jesus)
Blessed Thomas doubt no longer (Regent Square)
The last one was off The Sheet and came out of the NEH, it has excellent words.
Relieved to be spared carols ... I wonder if those who love to sing them for weeks before Christmas would be happy to sing Easter hymns in Passiontide 😏🤣
Festival carol service at Liverpool Metropolitan Cathedral.
Hodie - Britten
O come all ye faithful (no last verse. )
In Dulce Jubilo - Pearsall
In the bleak midwinter - Stopford
O little town
Sussex Carol - Ledger
Silent night
Candlelight Carol - Rutter
Gaudete, Gaudete - arr Fitzgerald
Once in royal
Lux Aurumque - Whitacre
Angels we have heard on high - Gevaert (in Latin)
Hark the herald.
Organ Toccata "Vom himmel hoch" - Edmundson.
Followed a few minutes later by all of La nativity du Seigneur - Messiaen.
With readings both scriptural and non-scriptural. On the level of performance the readers were variable and less polished than the musicians. Is this common?
The choirs are in much better fettle than last year. The Gaudete arrangement included a side drum which in the massive cathedral acoustic all but drowned out the choir and organ.
“Come and hear the joyful singing” – Nos Galan.
“Ding, dong, merrily on high” – usual tune but with swing rhythm.
“O come, o come Emmanuel” – Veni Emmanuel.
“The angel Gabriel” – Gabriel’s message.
“Once in royal David’s city” – Irby.
“While shepherds watched their flocks” – Winchester Old.
“All poor men and humble” – Olwen.
“It was on a starry night”.
“Alleluia, sing to Jesus, to the manger praises bring” - Calon Lân.
“Hark, the herald angels sing” – Mendelssohn.
Three Welsh carols (or at least tunes) – we are in Cardiff, after all!
...
O come, O come Emmanuel - with a pause in the middle of the refrain (doesn't everyone?)
Do you mean a pause after "Emmanuel" and before "shall come to thee"? I've never done it like that; to me it should be:
Rejoice! rejoice!
(pause for breath)
Emmanuel shall come to thee, (slight pause) O Israel
Yes, though it’s not so much a pause as note value. Some hymnals give the note for the “-el” of “Emmanuel” a note of the same metric value (typically a dotted quarter-note or dotted half-note) as the “-joice!” of “Rejoice!”
No services anywhere in the group this morning. Two carol services this evening, one at 5 elsewhere, one at 6 at my place.
80% of the congregation do not normally come to church.
Service of 9 lessons and 10 carols, or rather, 6 hymns and four choir carols.
Once in royal
Adam lay y bounden - Ord
It came upon the midnight clear.
Candlelight Carol - Rutter
Unto us a son is born
This is the truth sent from above - RVW
See amid the winter’s snow
What child is this ? - Thomas Hewitt-Jones
O come all ye faithful
Hard the herald
All hymns had descants.
Afterwards: We wish you a merry Christmas - Arthur Warrell
No more choir services until next year.
Christingle x 2 on Christmas Eve
Christmas HC 10am on 25th
HC at 10am on 28th.
We went to a very lovely Lessons and Carols service at our local Anglican Church this evening and we had:
Once in Royal David's City Choir - O Radiant Dawn, MacMillan Of the Father's heart begotten Choir - Come, ye gentles, hear the story, Bairstow The angel Gabriel from heaven came Choir - I saw a maiden, arr. Pettman O little town of Bethlehem Choir - O little one sweet, JS Bach O come all ye faithful Choir - Sir Christèmas - Mathias Hark the herald angels sing
Comments
It was some of the grammar that was changed several centuries ago, not the pronunciation. You do now hear Russian choirs and clergy use a pronunciation closer to modern Russian. This seems to be an innovation over the last 50 years.
I once heard an amateur contralto soloist render all the eszetts (ßs) in a piece of Bach as Bs.
*faints dead away*
It’s not just we English speakers who do it, though. I once heard a recording of Messiah in which the first words heard from the tenor soloist (who was Swedish, I think) were “Comfort ye, my pee-oh-play.”
And being a recording, that means many people had the opportunity to catch it before it went public.
The lady has been dead for many years, but that memory lives on in the parish.
OMG. I overheard a young man mansplaining to his girlfriend that the German word for "street" was "Strabe." Rhymes with "babe." SMH. Quite a ridiculous Herrklärung.
I wake up in a cold swear hearing what people do to Ystradfellte.
A vast number.
Its almost worth the journey to drive to Llanfihangel-yng-Ngwynfa with the car satnav turned on just to hear what the voice does with the name.
Nenya - Ecclesiantics Host
This was after a concert in which the monastery choir had sung many such works, and possibly the thing itself.
I studied Russian and spent half my year abroad in St Petersburg
One of our local bus companies tried synthesised voice announcements for the stops. They just about managed the English names, the Welsh ones were unspeakable. Fortunately they disappeared after a few months. Recently they've started introducing new ones which are much better.
My Spy can't remember what they sang, though I think most of the congregational carols would have been 'traditional'. However, While shepherds watched was sung (as it was last year) to Cranbrook, aka Ilkley Moor - a Kentish tune by one Thomas Clark...and a great improvement on the usual offering.
YMMV.
* of course, these things are relative - Kent is extremely far south from my perspective.
Just sayin' ...
It's worth noting that you can sing Hark, the herald angels sing to "Aberystwyth" and Once in royal David's city to "Cwm Rhondda".
Whether you should is, perhaps, another matter ...
Mary, blessed teenage mother (possibly Black Madonna, but probably another tune of 87 87 77 metre)
O come, O come, Emmanuel (Veni Emmanuel)
The angel Gabriel from heaven came (Birjina Gaztettobat Zegoen) - this will be sung by cantor(s) during Communion
Virgin-born, we bow before thee (Quem Pastores)
Long ago, prophets knew (Personent Hodie)
I don't yet know what they have planned for next week's 'CHRISTmass' services, but I'm sure Baby Jesus will be pleased to have 'Happy Birthday' sung to him once again on his special day. The St Stephen's Day Mass will no doubt feature, as usual, Good King Wenceslas - a ditty which has nothing to do with the Incarnation, or with the Martyrdom of Deacon Stephen...
I see that Mary, blessed teenage mother goes nicely to the tune Irby - Once in royal David's city.
I'm guessing a lot of people are doing what we are doing. So, no morning services, but rather Carols by [electric] Candlelight this afternoon - A budget Service of 5 out of 9 Lessons and 2 thirds of the Carols.
O Come O Come Emmanuel (Veni Emmanuel)
O Little Town of Bethlehem (Forest Green)
Once in Royal David's City (Irby)
O Holy Night (Cantique De Noel)
King of Kings (Brooke Ligertwood)
Hark The Herald Angels (Mendelssohn)
Joy to the World - ANTIOCH
O Little Town of Bethlehem - FOREST GREEN
What Child Is This - GREENSLEEVES
See Him Lying on a Bed of Straw - CALYPSO CAROL
O Come, All Ye Faithful - ADESTE FIDELES
Hark! The Herald Angels Sing - MENDELSSOHN
I expect that the worship band led a similar selection at the mid morning "carols for all ages", probably with more songs aimed at the children. This evening's service will be led by choir and small orchestra and is the one most likely to attract those locals who seldom set foot in church.
Ding! Dong! Merrily on high
Away in a manger
The regular hymns were:
O come, O come, Emmanuel - Veni Emmanuel
For I'm building a people of power
Long ago, prophets knew - Personent Hodie
Make me a channel of your peace
Go, tell it on the mountain - traditional
The angel Gabriel
Like a sea without a shore
O come, O come Emmanuel - with a pause in the middle of the refrain (doesn't everyone?)
You're probably right, though omitting a pause in the refrain is at least a step in the right direction.
I don't know how many turned up at Our Place this morning, but (as I posted yesterday) they had a good selection of suitable hymns. For some years now, our Carol Service has been held on Advent 3, which means that there is usually a breathing-space between it and the next 'CHRISTmass' services...
I like the idea of incorporating some sort of Nativity Play/Crib Service within the Advent 4 Eucharist, if resources don't permit of a Crib Service on Christmas Eve. Our Place's Crib Service has been very sparsely attended in recent years, possibly due to its late timing (5pm - other Places have theirs at around 3pm/330pm) or to a surfeit of school Nativity Plays etc. over the past few weeks!
On hymns today, Uppsala Cathedral had (inter alia) Alleluia, sing to Jesus (Hyfrydol) and Creator of the stars of night (Conditor Alme Siderum). They started with what is AIUI a very popular Marian hymn in Sweden - the first verse translates thus:
Hail, Mother of the Lord, O Mary!
Praised on Earth, O Mary!
Come forth, O Cherubim, and sing,
O Seraphim, sing with her the praises of the Lord!
Blessed, blessed, blessed, Mary!
The tune is similar to (but not quite the same as) that sung to Hail, holy Queen, enthroned above in more Catholic circles.
One thing remains (Your love never fails, never gives up, never runs out on me)
Light of the world (Here I am to worship)
God so loved (a Matt Crocker/Marty Sampson Hillsong number that was new to me)
Off to the lessons and carols service at our local anglican place this evening.
Today, we had:
“We Return” (as described on Nov. 30)
“Love Has Come”/BRING A TORCH
“Blest Be the God of Israel” (Song of Zechariah)/MERLE’S TUNE
“Awake! Awake, and Greet the New Morn”/REJOICE, REJOICE
“Watchman, Tell Us of the Night”/ABERYSTWYTH (sung antiphonally)
O come O come Emmanuel (without pause 🤣)
Magnificat
Her virgin eyes saw God incarnate born (Ellers)
The angel Gabriel
Thou didst leave thy throne (Margaret)
All went well, they seemed to enjoy the last one.
Mattins in a very conservative rural place who were observing
St Thomas the Apostle (amazingly but it is the old BCP date)
Who dreads yet undismayed (Monks Gate)
Come thou long expected Jesus (Cross of Jesus)
Blessed Thomas doubt no longer (Regent Square)
The last one was off The Sheet and came out of the NEH, it has excellent words.
Relieved to be spared carols ... I wonder if those who love to sing them for weeks before Christmas would be happy to sing Easter hymns in Passiontide 😏🤣
Hodie - Britten
O come all ye faithful (no last verse. )
In Dulce Jubilo - Pearsall
In the bleak midwinter - Stopford
O little town
Sussex Carol - Ledger
Silent night
Candlelight Carol - Rutter
Gaudete, Gaudete - arr Fitzgerald
Once in royal
Lux Aurumque - Whitacre
Angels we have heard on high - Gevaert (in Latin)
Hark the herald.
Organ Toccata "Vom himmel hoch" - Edmundson.
Followed a few minutes later by all of La nativity du Seigneur - Messiaen.
With readings both scriptural and non-scriptural. On the level of performance the readers were variable and less polished than the musicians. Is this common?
The choirs are in much better fettle than last year. The Gaudete arrangement included a side drum which in the massive cathedral acoustic all but drowned out the choir and organ.
It was one of David's seasonal party pieces. ❤️
Do you mean a pause after "Emmanuel" and before "shall come to thee"? I've never done it like that; to me it should be:
Rejoice! rejoice!
(pause for breath)
Emmanuel shall come to thee, (slight pause) O Israel
“Ding, dong, merrily on high” – usual tune but with swing rhythm.
“O come, o come Emmanuel” – Veni Emmanuel.
“The angel Gabriel” – Gabriel’s message.
“Once in royal David’s city” – Irby.
“While shepherds watched their flocks” – Winchester Old.
“All poor men and humble” – Olwen.
“It was on a starry night”.
“Alleluia, sing to Jesus, to the manger praises bring” - Calon Lân.
“Hark, the herald angels sing” – Mendelssohn.
Three Welsh carols (or at least tunes) – we are in Cardiff, after all!
80% of the congregation do not normally come to church.
Service of 9 lessons and 10 carols, or rather, 6 hymns and four choir carols.
Once in royal
Adam lay y bounden - Ord
It came upon the midnight clear.
Candlelight Carol - Rutter
Unto us a son is born
This is the truth sent from above - RVW
See amid the winter’s snow
What child is this ? - Thomas Hewitt-Jones
O come all ye faithful
Hard the herald
All hymns had descants.
Afterwards: We wish you a merry Christmas - Arthur Warrell
No more choir services until next year.
Christingle x 2 on Christmas Eve
Christmas HC 10am on 25th
HC at 10am on 28th.
Once in Royal David's City
Choir - O Radiant Dawn, MacMillan
Of the Father's heart begotten
Choir - Come, ye gentles, hear the story, Bairstow
The angel Gabriel from heaven came
Choir - I saw a maiden, arr. Pettman
O little town of Bethlehem
Choir - O little one sweet, JS Bach
O come all ye faithful
Choir - Sir Christèmas - Mathias
Hark the herald angels sing