I'm not sure anyone has mentioned how Trump's been claiming that King Charles indicated privately that he'd have supported US action against Iran if he'd have had his way.
Do we give Trump any credence for that claim?
Is that the sort of thing the King would say, even in private, and even if he believed it?
Or is it more Trumpine bloviating? ...
Sorry if US shipmates find this upsetting and disrespectful to your head of state, but I work on the assumption that nothing he says is likely to be true. That to my eyes and ears seems so far to have worked in evaluating anything he has alleged about the negotiations between any of the various parties to the interrelated wars in the Middle East.
I'm not sure anyone has mentioned how Trump's been claiming that King Charles indicated privately that he'd have supported US action against Iran if he'd have had his way.
Do we give Trump any credence for that claim?
Is that the sort of thing the King would say, even in private, and even if he believed it?
Or is it more Trumpine bloviating? ...
Sorry if US shipmates find this upsetting and disrespectful to your head of state, but I work on the assumption that nothing he says is likely to be true.
I don't think there are too many American shipmates who think along the lines of "We shouldn't question the honesty of Donald J. Trump, because he IS the president, after all."
I'm not sure anyone has mentioned how Trump's been claiming that King Charles indicated privately that he'd have supported US action against Iran if he'd have had his way.
Do we give Trump any credence for that claim?
Is that the sort of thing the King would say, even in private, and even if he believed it?
Or is it more Trumpine bloviating? ...
Sorry if US shipmates find this upsetting and disrespectful to your head of state, but I work on the assumption that nothing he says is likely to be true.
I think many if not most Americans work on that same assumption.
Gamma Gammiel. Prior to 1917 one of the largest newspapers in the US was called Amerika, a German paper. It was out of Wisconsin, but it had distribution throughout the US because of the railroads. German was the lingua franca of many states. But WWI changed that. The enemy spoke German. It was an almost overnight generational shift. Young people did not want to speak the language of the enemy. Federal and State laws were passed discouraging the use of German. Schools could no longer teach using German. Even Lutheran churches were banned from German services. After the war the older generation was dying out and younger generations just kept speaking English. Amerika ceased publication altogether in 1921.
Gamma Gammiel. Prior to 1917 one of the largest newspapers in the US was called Amerika, a German paper. It was out of Wisconsin, but it had distribution throughout the US because of the railroads. German was the lingua franca of many states. But WWI changed that. The enemy spoke German. It was an almost overnight generational shift. Young people did not want to speak the language of the enemy. Federal and State laws were passed discouraging the use of German. Schools could no longer teach using German. Even Lutheran churches were banned from German services. After the war the older generation was dying out and younger generations just kept speaking English. Amerika ceased publication altogether in 1921.
Gamma Gammiel. Prior to 1917 one of the largest newspapers in the US was called Amerika, a German paper. It was out of Wisconsin, but it had distribution throughout the US because of the railroads. German was the lingua franca of many states. But WWI changed that. The enemy spoke German. It was an almost overnight generational shift. Young people did not want to speak the language of the enemy. Federal and State laws were passed discouraging the use of German. Schools could no longer teach using German. Even Lutheran churches were banned from German services. After the war the older generation was dying out and younger generations just kept speaking English. Amerika ceased publication altogether in 1921.
I'm sure this is all true. But it does put me in mind of the factoid which holds that German came within one vote(in whatever assembly) of being the official language of America, which is apparently not true, but gets hauled out for rhetorical purposes by civic-minded pro-turnout types during elections.
One thing I do have on more credible authority(well, HL Mencken, who was virulently anglophobic and reporting second-hand) is that following the entry of the USA into WW 1, there was a concerted attempt to push sales of the 1912 Encyclopedia Britannica, which had been specially crafted to include more British contributors(the company having been American-owned since the 19th Century). Apparently, critics who wrote negative reviews of the set were suspected of pro-German leanings, and in at least one case subjected to rather ham-fisted surveillance.
@ChastMastr There is still a war on language in the US today, only it is Spanish. However, many immigrants will tell you of times they were speaking their mother tongue in a store or on the street and someone will yell, This is America! Speak English! Even Native Americans will have people yelling at them to go back where they came from.
@ChastMastr There is still a war on language in the US today, only it is Spanish. However, many immigrants will tell you of times they were speaking their mother tongue in a store or on the street and someone will yell, This is America! Speak English! Even Native Americans will have people yelling at them to go back where they came from.
Oh, I know, and it's ghastly. But the idea of laws against people speaking non-English in public or on the telephone or in their own churches or... it's boggling to me. That you could be more than picked on by other citizens, but charged with a crime... just for speaking your own language in public or on the phone... I just didn't know about this.
@Gramps49, whilst it's certainly the case that there was a backlash against all things German in the US during WW1 and that any measures against language and culture are deplorable it is simply not the case that German ever came close to becoming the official language of the USA.
There is an urban myth often known as the 'Muhlenberg Legend' that there was a vote on this in the 1790s, something that never actually took place.
That German was widely spoken in certain US states is very definitely the case and there was a decline in German speaking as a result of WW1.
It might have helped if you'd explained what you meant when you mentioned WW1 upthread. If you had done so, then I wouldn't have made the not unreasonable assumption that you believed US intervention in 1917 preserved the USA from German invasion or Britain and France becoming annexed by the Kaiser.
@ChastMastr There is still a war on language in the US today, only it is Spanish. However, many immigrants will tell you of times they were speaking their mother tongue in a store or on the street and someone will yell, This is America! Speak English! Even Native Americans will have people yelling at them to go back where they came from.
Oh, I know, and it's ghastly. But the idea of laws against people speaking non-English in public or on the telephone or in their own churches or... it's boggling to me. That you could be more than picked on by other citizens, but charged with a crime... just for speaking your own language in public or on the phone... I just didn't know about this.
Well, for the record, the most authoritarian measures listed by @Gramps49 are...
Federal and State laws were passed discouraging the use of German. Schools could no longer teach German.
Which doesn't explicitly say that there were laws precisely banning any and all speaking of German in public. Though such laws could certainly be a subcategory of what Gramps describes.
There's an episode of The Waltons that's set in what I assume is the build-up to WW 2, where the town goes into an anti-German frenzy and rounds up all the German books in order to burn them, but then John Boy runs up to the bonfire and pulls the top book from the pile, and gets his German friend to translate the opening words to the mob: "In the beginning..."
Little House On The Prairie also had a storyline about mean old Mrs. Olsen calling some local Germans "illiterate" because they couldn't read English, and the resolution also involved a German-language Bible(Mr. Ingils gave it to her to read aloud in church, and then asked her rhetorically if her inability to do so meant she was illiterate). But I don't think that connected to geopolitical issues, just a plausible language for immigrants in Walnut Grove to be speaking.
@Gramps49, whilst it's certainly the case that there was a backlash against all things German in the US during WW1 and that any measures against language and culture are deplorable it is simply not the case that German ever came close to becoming the official language of the USA.
There is an urban myth often known as the 'Muhlenberg Legend' that there was a vote on this in the 1790s, something that never actually took place.
That German was widely spoken in certain US states is very definitely the case and there was a decline in German speaking as a result of WW1.
It might have helped if you'd explained what you meant when you mentioned WW1 upthread. If you had done so, then I wouldn't have made the not unreasonable assumption that you believed US intervention in 1917 preserved the USA from German invasion or Britain and France becoming annexed by the Kaiser.
For the record, I don't think @Gramps49 said that German came close or even remotely close to being the official language of the USA, but rather I was the one who brought up that myth.
Gramps did say that "German was the lingua franca of many states". Personally, I'd find it a little more plausible that German was the lingua franca of certain regions of some states, eg. the Pennsylvania Dutch areas of Pennsylvania, but I really don't know.
Gramps did say that "German was the lingua franca of many states". Personally, I'd find it a little more plausible that German was the lingua franca of certain regions of some states, eg. the Pennsylvania Dutch areas of Pennsylvania, but I really don't know.
You’d be correct. There were regions/populations where German, was spoken for quite some time, and Dutch too, but it was never the predominant language of any state as far as I’m aware. Wisconsin once had a large German-speaking population, but English still predominated.
And I’ll admit I’ve never heard the story about German falling one vote short of being the official language of the US—something we never had until one of Trump’s 2025 Executive Orders.
No, I never said German came close to being an official language of the United States. The one thing I am proud of is there has never been an official language in the United States. Goes to the freedom on speech in the first amendment. That was the reason why SCOTUS ruled the anti German laws of WWI unconstitutional after the war
One has to remember about 35% of the American population before WWI came from Germany. The Midwest was known as the "German Belt. That included Wisconsin (35%); North Dakota (33%) South Dakota (32%) Nebraska (30%) Minnesota (29%) Missouri (25%) Illinois (20%) Indiana 19% Ohio (22%) and Kansas (23%), There were entire counties in Texas where 90% of the residents spoke German. You will find towns throughout Texas with German names. The mountain west: Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Idaho had upwards of 22% speaking German. Oregon and Washington each had 15%. There were small but active German enclaves in Providence and Boston. Arkansas, Tennessee, North and South Carolina had about 9% each. Louisiana had about 7% but it did have what was known as the German coast
German would likely have remained a major public language in the United States—possibly the second national language today if it were not for WWI. Not replacing English, but standing beside it in a way that would feel normal and visible today. Much like French and English are in Canada though not legally mandated.
On an earlier point about the King’s personal involvement in writing the speech. I’m sure the substance came out of the UK Foreign Office and Number 10, but the humorous flourishes sounded like pure Charles.
He’s learned a lot since the very damaging Diana debacle and tragedy. Even privileged people can do that.
I had never heard of International Mother Language Day before. From the Wikipedia entry on the subject and a quick check via google, I made the surprising discovery that Cardiff has an International Mother Language Day Monument, but that it was erected by campaigners from the local Bangladeshi community, has nothing to do with Welsh and does not seem to be interested in what by any other standards is the main language issue in Wales.
The one thing I am proud of is there has never been an official language in the United States. Goes to the freedom on speech in the first amendment.
The United States has never had an official language established by statute. As I noted earlier, Executive Order 14224 (2025) declares English to be the official language of the US. So far as I know, no court has struck EO 14224 down.
Meanwhile, 32 states and five territories have, by constitutional provision or statute, declared English their official language, or one of two or more official languages.
The First Amendment really doesn’t enter into the “official language” equation. Making a language an “official language” is primarily about things like the language(s) in which government business is conducted or instruction in public schools is given, and/or about encouraging immigrants to learn English. I’m not aware of any state law where having an official language prohibits people from speaking other languages, whether at home or elsewhere. Discrimination on the basis of language would be unconstitutional.
To be clear, I’m not a fan of the push in states and the federal government to make English the official language/an official language. I’d put it somewhere between unnecessary and xenophobic. But where it has happened, we shouldn’t think it means more than it does. It’s mostly a symbolic act.
Charles' speech before Congress is not like his speech before the British Parliament where the government writes the speech. That said, I am sure there were a number of layers in the making of the speech. Personal speech writers, checking with the foreign office, probably the American State Department (only for review) and final edits by the King himself--especially when he spoke about environmental issues and maybe the quip about him not coming to take back the colonies.
You mean Mamdani is the pot, Charles is the kettle, and Mamdani is black because of the USA's own history of imperialism?
Yes.
Which doesn't excuse ours or lets us off the hook.
When Trump lauds the incomparable legacy that Britain bequeathed the US it included the propensity to act imperially.
Good things as well, of course.
But Mamdani wasn't born in the US, he is Palestinian iirc. His family are victims of US imperialism, not perpetuators of it.
Actually, his paternal family are Ugandans of Indian diaspora descent, who seem to have spent most of their time in Africa. His maternal family are Indians who moved straight to the US, and he himself was born in Uganda.
So, more directly victims of British imperialism than American. My main observation about his comments would not be the hypocrisy(*), but just that it's one of those postures where a) the posturer has very little power to actually do anything about it, and, b) is pretty much insulated from any blowback.
(*) If it was the POTUS saying "You British imperialists better send those diamonds back!!", there'd be stronger case for it being hypocritical. Not sure about the mayor of NYC, since municipal governments don't make decisions about colonizing other places.
Comments
You mean Mamdani is the pot, Charles is the kettle, and Mamdani is black because of the USA's own history of imperialism?
I don't think there are too many American shipmates who think along the lines of "We shouldn't question the honesty of Donald J. Trump, because he IS the president, after all."
Yes.
Which doesn't excuse ours or lets us off the hook.
When Trump lauds the incomparable legacy that Britain bequeathed the US it included the propensity to act imperially.
Good things as well, of course.
That's certainly my impression.
Of course, this was all reinforced 25 years later in WWII.
Here is a short article on the War against the language.
Oh my God. I had no idea of any of this. This was horrible.
I'm grateful for things like this:
https://www.un.org/en/observances/mother-language-day
History of International Mother Language Day:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Mother_Language_Day
I'm sure this is all true. But it does put me in mind of the factoid which holds that German came within one vote(in whatever assembly) of being the official language of America, which is apparently not true, but gets hauled out for rhetorical purposes by civic-minded pro-turnout types during elections.
One thing I do have on more credible authority(well, HL Mencken, who was virulently anglophobic and reporting second-hand) is that following the entry of the USA into WW 1, there was a concerted attempt to push sales of the 1912 Encyclopedia Britannica, which had been specially crafted to include more British contributors(the company having been American-owned since the 19th Century). Apparently, critics who wrote negative reviews of the set were suspected of pro-German leanings, and in at least one case subjected to rather ham-fisted surveillance.
Oh, I know, and it's ghastly. But the idea of laws against people speaking non-English in public or on the telephone or in their own churches or... it's boggling to me. That you could be more than picked on by other citizens, but charged with a crime... just for speaking your own language in public or on the phone...
There is an urban myth often known as the 'Muhlenberg Legend' that there was a vote on this in the 1790s, something that never actually took place.
That German was widely spoken in certain US states is very definitely the case and there was a decline in German speaking as a result of WW1.
It might have helped if you'd explained what you meant when you mentioned WW1 upthread. If you had done so, then I wouldn't have made the not unreasonable assumption that you believed US intervention in 1917 preserved the USA from German invasion or Britain and France becoming annexed by the Kaiser.
Well, for the record, the most authoritarian measures listed by @Gramps49 are...
Which doesn't explicitly say that there were laws precisely banning any and all speaking of German in public. Though such laws could certainly be a subcategory of what Gramps describes.
There's an episode of The Waltons that's set in what I assume is the build-up to WW 2, where the town goes into an anti-German frenzy and rounds up all the German books in order to burn them, but then John Boy runs up to the bonfire and pulls the top book from the pile, and gets his German friend to translate the opening words to the mob: "In the beginning..."
Little House On The Prairie also had a storyline about mean old Mrs. Olsen calling some local Germans "illiterate" because they couldn't read English, and the resolution also involved a German-language Bible(Mr. Ingils gave it to her to read aloud in church, and then asked her rhetorically if her inability to do so meant she was illiterate). But I don't think that connected to geopolitical issues, just a plausible language for immigrants in Walnut Grove to be speaking.
For the record, I don't think @Gramps49 said that German came close or even remotely close to being the official language of the USA, but rather I was the one who brought up that myth.
Gramps did say that "German was the lingua franca of many states". Personally, I'd find it a little more plausible that German was the lingua franca of certain regions of some states, eg. the Pennsylvania Dutch areas of Pennsylvania, but I really don't know.
And I’ll admit I’ve never heard the story about German falling one vote short of being the official language of the US—something we never had until one of Trump’s 2025 Executive Orders.
One has to remember about 35% of the American population before WWI came from Germany. The Midwest was known as the "German Belt. That included Wisconsin (35%); North Dakota (33%) South Dakota (32%) Nebraska (30%) Minnesota (29%) Missouri (25%) Illinois (20%) Indiana 19% Ohio (22%) and Kansas (23%), There were entire counties in Texas where 90% of the residents spoke German. You will find towns throughout Texas with German names. The mountain west: Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Idaho had upwards of 22% speaking German. Oregon and Washington each had 15%. There were small but active German enclaves in Providence and Boston. Arkansas, Tennessee, North and South Carolina had about 9% each. Louisiana had about 7% but it did have what was known as the German coast
A good source for these data points is https://www.nhgis.org/
Forgot to mention Pennsylvania 25%
Next to the British Iles, Germany was the largest source of immigrants up until 1917. Since then, other nationalities have taken Germany's place.
Here is a map showing the nationalities of immigration into each state in 1900 https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/dFJrWNSQKHLIOQiAla6B3_mPJ2s=/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/4103370/Screen_Shot_2015-09-28_at_11.01.33_AM.0.png
German would likely have remained a major public language in the United States—possibly the second national language today if it were not for WWI. Not replacing English, but standing beside it in a way that would feel normal and visible today. Much like French and English are in Canada though not legally mandated.
He’s learned a lot since the very damaging Diana debacle and tragedy. Even privileged people can do that.
Meanwhile, 32 states and five territories have, by constitutional provision or statute, declared English their official language, or one of two or more official languages.
The First Amendment really doesn’t enter into the “official language” equation. Making a language an “official language” is primarily about things like the language(s) in which government business is conducted or instruction in public schools is given, and/or about encouraging immigrants to learn English. I’m not aware of any state law where having an official language prohibits people from speaking other languages, whether at home or elsewhere. Discrimination on the basis of language would be unconstitutional.
To be clear, I’m not a fan of the push in states and the federal government to make English the official language/an official language. I’d put it somewhere between unnecessary and xenophobic. But where it has happened, we shouldn’t think it means more than it does. It’s mostly a symbolic act.
But Mamdani wasn't born in the US, he is Palestinian iirc. His family are victims of US imperialism, not perpetuators of it.
Actually, his paternal family are Ugandans of Indian diaspora descent, who seem to have spent most of their time in Africa. His maternal family are Indians who moved straight to the US, and he himself was born in Uganda.
So, more directly victims of British imperialism than American. My main observation about his comments would not be the hypocrisy(*), but just that it's one of those postures where a) the posturer has very little power to actually do anything about it, and, b) is pretty much insulated from any blowback.
(*) If it was the POTUS saying "You British imperialists better send those diamonds back!!", there'd be stronger case for it being hypocritical. Not sure about the mayor of NYC, since municipal governments don't make decisions about colonizing other places.
And Australia , New Zealand and a host of other countries. Many of us in Aust would prefer that he was not, but sadly probably not a majority.