@Leorning Cniht I'm interested to know how you feel wrt caffeinated energy drinks vs coffee or tea. Is an energy drink less coded to you as being for socialising than coffee or tea? In a perfect world nobody would have any trouble staying awake during a lecture or indeed a sermon, but it's not a perfect world and human levels of sleepiness in exist in 9am lectures and 10am services.
My instinctive response to "energy drinks" is to put them in the same class as soda, and I think I would class them the same as tea or coffee. Pro Plus and a swig of water to choke them down would read like medication, though.
I'm surprised that you feel that bringing in coffee as a lecturer would be disrespectful to students, since teachers have been drinking coffee in the classroom for decades
I'm trying to remember if that has ever happened to me, and I don't think it has. In my 6th form days, nobody brought tea in to the classroom - students or teachers. (Mind you, half my A-level classes were in science labs where drinking would be forbidden on safety grounds anyway.) Teachers would retreat to the staffroom in morning break to drink tea or coffee; students were more likely to acquire a can of fizzy drink. As an undergraduate or graduate student, I don't ever remember a lecturer appearing with tea or coffee, and it's not something I have ever done when I have lectured. (Heading to the canteen for a cup of tea afterwards was common enough, though.)
As a rule, lecture theatres were posted "no food or drink".
On a personal front, if I did show up to give a lecture with a cup of tea, I would be almost guaranteed to get involved with the lecture, forget about the tea, and then find a sad-looking cold thing on the desk an hour later.
I see more relaxed church services with coffee and refreshments before/during the service as similarly being about breaking down clergy vs congregation barriers.
While I have no argument with a worshipping community deciding what is and isn’t appropriate when it meets to worship and what kind of atmosphere it wants to foster, I’m afraid I don’t see how refreshments during the service breaks down any clergy/congregation barriers.
I see more relaxed church services with coffee and refreshments before/during the service as similarly being about breaking down clergy vs congregation barriers.
While I have no argument with a worshipping community deciding what is and isn’t appropriate when it meets to worship and what kind of atmosphere it wants to foster, I’m afraid I don’t see how refreshments during the service breaks down any clergy/congregation barriers.
Oh I didn't mean that they necessarily did so successfully - just that I think that's part of the goal.
@Leorning Cniht do you remember any teachers at school drinking coffee? I remember teachers having a mug of coffee on their desk from primary school (mid-90s) onwards, so it's always been present.
I have to say that I strongly associate coffee/hot drinks in general with study rather than socialising - to me it's simply part of being in a classroom/lecture theatre as an adult. So for me in a church service it would speak to attention rather than distraction or socialising.
Speaking more generally, I think for both college/uni and churches have moved towards coffee shops being part of their campuses - to the extent that Evangelical churches running coffee shops is a bit of a cliche. I don't think that associating coffee with study + church is an unflattering association for it.
Aside from anything else, comparing worship to chores seems like a poor comparison that both compares worship to something unpleasant to be endured (as I think most people would consider chores to be) and also suggests that a failure to worship "properly" has some kind of material outcome comparable to eg not doing laundry when it demonstrably does not. People should do their laundry so that they have clean clothes to wear - that's the point of doing it.
Liturgy literally means "the work of the people" or, if you prefer, "public works." The idea of gathering people and working together - in this case, to praise God - was the source of the analogy.
Are household chores something unpleasant to be endured?
There isn't a comparable outcome for joining in with worship; someone there to merely observe isn't actually harming anyone. Why do you think that the presence of an observer is so harmful?
I do not think that, nor have I said so, so I would appreciate you not ascribing to me an idea I do not hold and did not communicate. The idea of harm is interesting. Again, I did not introduce it and am curious why you did? I do not think observation of worship is harmful. It is how observers move from being observers to participants.
For some of us with religious trauma, a church service is something to endure. I think most churches would prefer that we attend rather than not attend. What your comment says to me is "if you can't join in enthusiastically you shouldn't bother attending", which does not exactly make me want to try more.
I am sorry to hear you identify as having religious trauma. How that shapes your experience and being in worship is probably better discussed in Epiphanies.
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A university lecture IS there to educate you. That is its function. However, let's face it - a 9am Monday morning lecture is also something to endure. For some of us with religious trauma, a church service is something to endure. I think most churches would prefer that we attend rather than not attend.
Thanks for this (and other posts).
There are other reasons why a church service might be something to be endured - out of a sense of duty, for example. And, as far as I'm concerned, any sermon over 15 minutes long is pretty much the same thing as a lecture.
The coffee thing mostly comes from the intentional relaxing of 'church' as a more formal or structured experience. Cruciform cathedrals are now theater/auditoriums. Chancels are now stages. Choirs are now 'praise teams' (read: pop-rock bands). Books are now screens. Semi-formal attire is now jeans, t-shirts and Crocs.
All in the name of 'relevancy' and coherence with 'the culture.'
This is culture war bullshit. Lots of people drink coffee in churches that are more formal, and less formal church styles aren't somehow lesser forms of church. And as someone who wears Crocs for disability reasons, fuck off with your judgementalism over what other people wear.
And yet I never passed judgment. I just made an observation. If you think it's inaccurate, that's fine, but my sense is that most of society has gone through a casualization over the past handful of decades. Maybe go look at some old pictures.
So what about churches like ours that only have one building so that post-service coffee etc has to happen at the back of the building, We have a deacon who takes the Blessed Sacrament out of the church into the sacristy and returns it when people have gone home, and a priest who is mindful that Jesus ate and drank in company so he leaves it in place in church.
I bring a coffee into everyone of my lectures I give to my first year course. At 0830 this is a necessity.
I had an 8:00 a.m. class every weekday of my freshman year of college, and no one—faculty or student—ever brought coffee or any other drink into class. I wonder what has changed over the decades that something unnecessary then is a necessity now.
I think people are just less willing to suffer pointlessly - sure I can manage without a morning coffee, but first I would want to be provided with a good reason to do so.
There is evidence for resilience being built from some measure of discomfort or hardship - but life usually takes care of that on its own without having to manufacture it.
@Leorning Cniht do you remember any teachers at school drinking coffee? I remember teachers having a mug of coffee on their desk from primary school (mid-90s) onwards, so it's always been present.
I have to say that I strongly associate coffee/hot drinks in general with study rather than socialising - to me it's simply part of being in a classroom/lecture theatre as an adult. So for me in a church service it would speak to attention rather than distraction or socialising.
Speaking more generally, I think for both college/uni and churches have moved towards coffee shops being part of their campuses - to the extent that Evangelical churches running coffee shops is a bit of a cliche. I don't think that associating coffee with study + church is an unflattering association for it.
Interesting. I'm beginning to see where many people on this thread are coming from, and it's from an association of church worship with study/learning. Those of us from more sacramental traditions might find that odd: not that 'learning' or at least formation isn't an essential part of worship (certainly the Bible is crucial), but that the worship experience is more akin to watching a drama or visiting an art gallery, than to sitting in a classroom.
I think people are just less willing to suffer pointlessly - sure I can manage without a morning coffee, but first I would want to be provided with a good reason to do so.
Maybe, but I’m not sure. My recollection is that no one was having to manage without their morning caffeination, at least not as a general rule. We drank our coffee or other caffeinated beverages before class.
I think people are just less willing to suffer pointlessly - sure I can manage without a morning coffee, but first I would want to be provided with a good reason to do so.
There is evidence for resilience being built from some measure of discomfort or hardship - but life usually takes care of that on its own without having to manufacture it.
I think this has elements of technologies of convenience - both the increased availability of easily-transported hot drinks, and campaigns by vendors that have normalised expectations of being able to take a portable hot drink to any destination a consumer cares to visit.
I also think that as a society, in the UK anyway, we are starting to increasingly read formality as the performance of deference and resent that. A parallel trend being to value prominent people who present themselves as ordinary.
So instead of thinking it’s a mark of respect for, for example, the prime minister to wear a suit to meet you - we instead value when he doesn’t.
Nick Tamen wrote: I had an 8:00 a.m. class every weekday of my freshman year of college, and no one—faculty or student—ever brought coffee or any other drink into class. I wonder what has changed over the decades that something unnecessary then is a necessity now.
Caissa replies probably attitudinal changes. When I started in 1981, at least 2 of my professors smoked in class. I also routinely have students in my classes who require access to food and/or drink for health reasons. My drinking coffee normalizes it for all students. When I did my Masters, I had a prof who brought an unlit pipe to class. Often, when reflected on an answer, he would take a drag on the unlit pipe. It bought him reflection time. My large, strong coffee also affords me thinking time.
@Leorning Cniht do you remember any teachers at school drinking coffee? I remember teachers having a mug of coffee on their desk from primary school (mid-90s) onwards, so it's always been present.
I have to say that I strongly associate coffee/hot drinks in general with study rather than socialising - to me it's simply part of being in a classroom/lecture theatre as an adult. So for me in a church service it would speak to attention rather than distraction or socialising.
Speaking more generally, I think for both college/uni and churches have moved towards coffee shops being part of their campuses - to the extent that Evangelical churches running coffee shops is a bit of a cliche. I don't think that associating coffee with study + church is an unflattering association for it.
Interesting. I'm beginning to see where many people on this thread are coming from, and it's from an association of church worship with study/learning. Those of us from more sacramental traditions might find that odd: not that 'learning' or at least formation isn't an essential part of worship (certainly the Bible is crucial), but that the worship experience is more akin to watching a drama or visiting an art gallery, than to sitting in a classroom.
To me, the comparisons to watching a drama or visiting an art gallery are perhaps as odd as the comparison to sitting in a classroom. They may be valid comparisons up to a point, but all three comparisons lack the component of active participation.
I think people are just less willing to suffer pointlessly - sure I can manage without a morning coffee, but first I would want to be provided with a good reason to do so.
There is evidence for resilience being built from some measure of discomfort or hardship - but life usually takes care of that on its own without having to manufacture it.
I think this has elements of technologies of convenience - both the increased availability of easily-transported hot drinks, and campaigns by vendors that have normalised expectations of being able to take a portable hot drink to any destination a consumer cares to visit.
I think this is closer to what’s happened. I tend to think it’s not so much about being less willing to suffer pointlessly, as it is about changes in culture. I was in college years before the appearance of what I’ll call the Starbucks-and-travel-mug culture.
There is evidence for resilience being built from some measure of discomfort or hardship - but life usually takes care of that on its own without having to manufacture it.
I think this has elements of technologies of convenience - both the increased availability of easily-transported hot drinks, and campaigns by vendors that have normalised expectations of being able to take a portable hot drink to any destination a consumer cares to visit.
[/quote] I'd go with that. When I was a student coffee either came from a few coin-in-the-slot machines (disgusting instant coffee in a flimsy hot cup with no lid which one would never think of carrying) or the refectory (glass or ceramic mugs).
@Leorning Cniht do you remember any teachers at school drinking coffee? I remember teachers having a mug of coffee on their desk from primary school (mid-90s) onwards, so it's always been present.
Catching a glimpse of a teacher drinking tea or coffee through the closing door of the staffroom as I walked past? Sure. Supervising the queue for the cafeteria with a mug in their hand? Sure. Drinking tea in a social context (invited speaker with tea and biscuits afterwards)? Sure.
Showing up to teach a class with a cup of tea or coffee? No - I have never seen that happen.
When I did my Masters, I had a prof who brought an unlit pipe to class. Often, when reflected on an answer, he would take a drag on the unlit pipe. It bought him reflection time. My large, strong coffee also affords me thinking time.
I don't ever remember anyone giving a lecture whilst smoking, but I had a tutor who smoked a pipe and had a similar mannerism. You would ask him a question, and he'd sit back, suck on his pipe, and then sit up and answer it. A particularly challenging question would send him back to the pipe a second time before he answered. There was a standing challenge amongst the students for anyone to come up with a question that would be a "three-piper". Nobody ever collected.
To me, the comparisons to watching a drama or visiting an art gallery are perhaps as odd as the comparison to sitting in a classroom. They may be valid comparisons up to a point, but all three comparisons lack the component of active participation.
True. I found it hard to think of an analogy that included the latter. Perhaps an indication that worship (of whatever style) is sui generis. Different enough anyway from most human gatherings for customs about food and drink etc not to be directly transferable.
We've come a long way though from discreetly sipping water bottles by those that may need to do so for health reasons or to enable them to sing. That is an entirely different thing.
I think I may have taught class with a large mug of tea on occasion. I probably never touched it, but it was there.
Really, having been stuck with 8 a.m. students many a time, I would much rather have them show up with caffeine in hand than sit there staring sightlessly at me and occasionally yawning outright. I suspect there are preachers who would say the same.
To me, the comparisons to watching a drama or visiting an art gallery are perhaps as odd as the comparison to sitting in a classroom. They may be valid comparisons up to a point, but all three comparisons lack the component of active participation.
True. I found it hard to think of an analogy that included the latter. Perhaps an indication that worship (of whatever style) is sui generis. Different enough anyway from most human gatherings for customs about food and drink etc not to be directly transferable.
With a nod (or apologies) to Søren Kierkegaard, the thought that came to my mind was the flip of your “watching a drama” comparison—the worship experience is more akin to participating in the cast or ensemble of a performance.
We've come a long way though from discreetly sipping water bottles by those that may need to do so for health reasons or to enable them to sing. That is an entirely different thing.
We've come a long way though from discreetly sipping water bottles by those that may need to do so for health reasons or to enable them to sing. That is an entirely different thing.
I'm inclined to say "yes and no". It is different, but the distinction doesn't always get made.
If I see someone drinking something, somewhere that seems inappropriate, I might ask myself the question "does this person have different needs from me?", but I'm not convinced it would be my first thought. I think the societal norms with which I grew up are quite privileged, in that they don't take much account of the diversity of societal needs.
If I see someone drinking something, somewhere that seems inappropriate, I might ask myself the question "does this person have different needs from me?", but I'm not convinced it would be my first thought. I think the societal norms with which I grew up are quite privileged, in that they don't take much account of the diversity of societal needs.
If you see someone wearing a jacket and tie with sweatpants somewhere, my first assumption would be that they have a leg in plaster and normal pants won't fit over the cast, or some similar medical need to not wear a proper pair of pants. They're doing the best they can to dress smartly consistent with whatever else they've got going on.
If they're wearing sweatpants with a t-shirt, my first response is to assume they think that t-shirt and sweatpants is appropriate clothing for whatever this occasion is.
Comments
My instinctive response to "energy drinks" is to put them in the same class as soda, and I think I would class them the same as tea or coffee. Pro Plus and a swig of water to choke them down would read like medication, though.
I'm trying to remember if that has ever happened to me, and I don't think it has. In my 6th form days, nobody brought tea in to the classroom - students or teachers. (Mind you, half my A-level classes were in science labs where drinking would be forbidden on safety grounds anyway.) Teachers would retreat to the staffroom in morning break to drink tea or coffee; students were more likely to acquire a can of fizzy drink. As an undergraduate or graduate student, I don't ever remember a lecturer appearing with tea or coffee, and it's not something I have ever done when I have lectured. (Heading to the canteen for a cup of tea afterwards was common enough, though.)
As a rule, lecture theatres were posted "no food or drink".
On a personal front, if I did show up to give a lecture with a cup of tea, I would be almost guaranteed to get involved with the lecture, forget about the tea, and then find a sad-looking cold thing on the desk an hour later.
Oh I didn't mean that they necessarily did so successfully - just that I think that's part of the goal.
I have to say that I strongly associate coffee/hot drinks in general with study rather than socialising - to me it's simply part of being in a classroom/lecture theatre as an adult. So for me in a church service it would speak to attention rather than distraction or socialising.
Speaking more generally, I think for both college/uni and churches have moved towards coffee shops being part of their campuses - to the extent that Evangelical churches running coffee shops is a bit of a cliche. I don't think that associating coffee with study + church is an unflattering association for it.
Liturgy literally means "the work of the people" or, if you prefer, "public works." The idea of gathering people and working together - in this case, to praise God - was the source of the analogy.
Are household chores something unpleasant to be endured?
I do not think that, nor have I said so, so I would appreciate you not ascribing to me an idea I do not hold and did not communicate. The idea of harm is interesting. Again, I did not introduce it and am curious why you did? I do not think observation of worship is harmful. It is how observers move from being observers to participants.
I am sorry to hear you identify as having religious trauma. How that shapes your experience and being in worship is probably better discussed in Epiphanies.
There are other reasons why a church service might be something to be endured - out of a sense of duty, for example. And, as far as I'm concerned, any sermon over 15 minutes long is pretty much the same thing as a lecture.
And yet I never passed judgment. I just made an observation. If you think it's inaccurate, that's fine, but my sense is that most of society has gone through a casualization over the past handful of decades. Maybe go look at some old pictures.
There is evidence for resilience being built from some measure of discomfort or hardship - but life usually takes care of that on its own without having to manufacture it.
Interesting. I'm beginning to see where many people on this thread are coming from, and it's from an association of church worship with study/learning. Those of us from more sacramental traditions might find that odd: not that 'learning' or at least formation isn't an essential part of worship (certainly the Bible is crucial), but that the worship experience is more akin to watching a drama or visiting an art gallery, than to sitting in a classroom.
So instead of thinking it’s a mark of respect for, for example, the prime minister to wear a suit to meet you - we instead value when he doesn’t.
Caissa replies probably attitudinal changes. When I started in 1981, at least 2 of my professors smoked in class. I also routinely have students in my classes who require access to food and/or drink for health reasons. My drinking coffee normalizes it for all students. When I did my Masters, I had a prof who brought an unlit pipe to class. Often, when reflected on an answer, he would take a drag on the unlit pipe. It bought him reflection time. My large, strong coffee also affords me thinking time.
I think this is closer to what’s happened. I tend to think it’s not so much about being less willing to suffer pointlessly, as it is about changes in culture. I was in college years before the appearance of what I’ll call the Starbucks-and-travel-mug culture.
[/quote] I'd go with that. When I was a student coffee either came from a few coin-in-the-slot machines (disgusting instant coffee in a flimsy hot cup with no lid which one would never think of carrying) or the refectory (glass or ceramic mugs).
Catching a glimpse of a teacher drinking tea or coffee through the closing door of the staffroom as I walked past? Sure. Supervising the queue for the cafeteria with a mug in their hand? Sure. Drinking tea in a social context (invited speaker with tea and biscuits afterwards)? Sure.
Showing up to teach a class with a cup of tea or coffee? No - I have never seen that happen.
I don't ever remember anyone giving a lecture whilst smoking, but I had a tutor who smoked a pipe and had a similar mannerism. You would ask him a question, and he'd sit back, suck on his pipe, and then sit up and answer it. A particularly challenging question would send him back to the pipe a second time before he answered. There was a standing challenge amongst the students for anyone to come up with a question that would be a "three-piper". Nobody ever collected.
True. I found it hard to think of an analogy that included the latter. Perhaps an indication that worship (of whatever style) is sui generis. Different enough anyway from most human gatherings for customs about food and drink etc not to be directly transferable.
We've come a long way though from discreetly sipping water bottles by those that may need to do so for health reasons or to enable them to sing. That is an entirely different thing.
Really, having been stuck with 8 a.m. students many a time, I would much rather have them show up with caffeine in hand than sit there staring sightlessly at me and occasionally yawning outright. I suspect there are preachers who would say the same.
Still a comparison with limits, though.
Indeed it is an entirely different thing.
If I see someone drinking something, somewhere that seems inappropriate, I might ask myself the question "does this person have different needs from me?", but I'm not convinced it would be my first thought. I think the societal norms with which I grew up are quite privileged, in that they don't take much account of the diversity of societal needs.
If you see someone wearing a jacket and tie with sweatpants somewhere, my first assumption would be that they have a leg in plaster and normal pants won't fit over the cast, or some similar medical need to not wear a proper pair of pants. They're doing the best they can to dress smartly consistent with whatever else they've got going on.
If they're wearing sweatpants with a t-shirt, my first response is to assume they think that t-shirt and sweatpants is appropriate clothing for whatever this occasion is.