September Book Club - Persuasion by Jane Austen
This month we're discussing Persuasion by Jane Austen. Her last novel its the story of Anne Elliot who seven years previously rejected a proposal from Frederick Wentworth, an impecunious naval officer. He then returns to her orbit a wealthy man and ready to marry. I thoroughly enjoyed my re-read of it recently and look forward to discussing it on the 20th.
If you don't have time to read the book I thought this adaptation was true to the book and a good film in its own right.
If you don't have time to read the book I thought this adaptation was true to the book and a good film in its own right.
Comments
Yes, it's a very good adaptation you've pointed us to; though one might say Amanda Root rather overplays the submissive demeanor and unfortunately comes over as a bit wet!
I think I’ve read Persuasion at least twice but both times were a while back. Will try to take another look sometime this month.
@nenya, if there are any second hand bookshops near you see if they have a copy. We usually had one in the Oxfam shop I volunteered in.
I'm in. I haven't read it for several years, but there's a copy around here somewhere.
I can't imagine a more strange combination than Elmer and Persuasion
*I'd actually bought an Elmer for my oldest brother who loved both bright colours and elephants, but he died of Parkinson's before his birthday.
All of which is to say I will join the discussion.
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My husband and and I spent our honeymoon at Lyme Regis 50 years ago and have returned there regularly and I've often re-read Persuasion whilst there as I have it on my Kindle.
It's such a beautifully observed narrative 😍
My book is in! I'll be collecting it later this week.
I love Persuasion; my second favourite Austen novel.
1. If you've read other Austen novels, where would you place this one. If this is your first Austen, what did you think?
2. Is this the most romantic of Austen's novels. What do you think of Anne and Wentworth's relationship? Will be stronger from the seven years or so delay?
3. Did you have a favourite character or one you loved to hate? Do you think Austen was unfair to Mrs Clay and too kind to Mrs Smith for instance?
4. If you've seen any adaptations of the book, what did you think of them?
5. One of the things I like about the book is that I know The Cobb in Lyme Regis, and I can really picture the scene when Louisa jumps from it. Do you think knowing the settings of scenes makes a difference to your enjoyment of them?
6. Any other questions?
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As characters I like Admiral and Mrs Croft. A marriage of equals between two sensible people.
One does wonder about Captain Frederick Wentworth's family. We know there are two brothers and a sister with the sister apparently the oldest (38 and married for 15 years with Edward Wentworth who is in holy orders probably about 32 or 33 [he had to be 24 or older in 1805 when he started as curate at Monkford some 8 years before], Frederick Wentworth being 31 or so). No mention of parents or other siblings or of someone in the family being landed gentry. However they must have some resources in order to send one son to university and place another as a midshipman (and Frederick Wentworth almost certainly became a midshipman before his sister's marriage). Contrast the Elliots who are from an established family (though their ancestor becoming a baronet in the first years of Charles 2 meant he likely paid cash for the honor).
I know and love Lyme Regis and for me the sense of place really adds to my enjoyment of reading a book.
I'll often look for books set in places I can picture and the scene on the Cobb is really vivid for me.
That said, the characterisation in Persuasion is also truly wonderful!
Anne Elliot is the most mature of Jane’s central female characters and the book certainly shows some of Jane’s development as a novelist.
I think it is the most romantic of her novels but by a whisker!
My favourite dramatic representation is the BBC 1995 production starring Amanda Root and Ciaran Hinds. Stunning performances by both. And Corbin Redgrave did a very good job of portraying the totally obnoxious Sir Walter Elliot. It’s not easy to get hold of but if you enjoy the book it’s well worth watching.
It's definitely the most romantic of Austen's novels - in more than one sense. It's one of the novels where the protagonist is wiser and more understanding than the people around her, and also the one with the most romantic melancholy.
Anne and Wentworth are I think Austen's best couple. They're more equal than Elisabeth and Darcy.
Anne thinks that were she to advise her younger self she would have advised her to marry straight away. So she doesn't think the relationship will be stronger for it.
1. This is equal first with Pride and Prejudice in my own personal ranking of Austen's novels. Possibly stronger than P&P in some areas: all the characters are so well developed.
2. I don't know about it being the most romantic of her novels. I would describe it as the one where she examines a number of different issues relating to courtship and marriage in depth. The plot seems more complicated than her earlier works, too. It's difficult to say whether Anne and Wentworth's relationship is stronger for the eight-year separation. Maybe it is: but it must have been strong anyway, to survive with no encouragement for so long. And if he had swallowed his pride and asked her again, a year later when he'd made his fortune, they could have avoided six years of separation.
3. I liked Admiral and Mrs Croft too. I would never want to meet him, but I do think Sir Walter is a marvellous comic creation. 'Few women could think more of their personal appearance than he did...' there's the Jane we know and love. I am not sure whether Austen is unfair to Mrs Smith or not: given the information she had until Anne explained the situation to her, she had no reason not to believe that Anne had fallen for Mr Elliott, and in such a situation, telling her about his true character would probably not have discouraged her from marrying him but would certainly have offended her so much that she would have broken off her friendship with Mrs Smith. In those circumstances, and bearing in mind that Anne was almost the only former friend willing to visit her, would you have said anything, if you were Mrs Smith? I'm not sure I would.
4. I think I saw a TV adaptation once, but it was so long ago that I can't remember anything about it.
5. I do not know Lyme, but I was interested to read her (lyrical) descriptions of it with absolutely no mention of dinosaurs. Of course that's what Lyme is famous for now, but the book was published before the advent of dinosaur fever.
6. Was Mrs Smith's 'West Indian property' a sugar plantation? - almost certainly, and there are no hints here that anyone involved with it is an abolitionist. Mrs Croft is quite happy to travel about the world in her husband's ship: presumably she sits in her cabin with her earplugs in when the crew are being flogged, although she wouldn't have the same aversion to corporal punishment as a lily-livered 21st century woman, such as myself.
Finally, I note that Frederick Wentworth (like many men) may admire strong-minded women in theory, but in practice he only approves of them when they are doing what he wants. A fact which he acknowledges at the end of the book, which makes him very unusual indeed.
Mrs Smith's West Indian property was likely a sugar plantation or a share of one though items like allspice (aka pimento) and coffee were also cash crops though on a much smaller scale.
Or maybe because it was a distraction from the story.
Thanks Sarasa.
1. If you've read other Austen novels, where would you place this one. If this is your first Austen, what did you think?
I have read all Austen's novels and this one is my personal favourite. The main characters mad a great couple and the twists and turns and side romances made the story enjoyable.
2. Is this the most romantic of Austen's novels. What do you think of Anne and Wentworth's relationship? Will be stronger from the seven years or so delay?
I don't know if it is the most romantic of Austen's novels. It is different in that both main characters love each other in the beginning, even if Wentworth is in denial, and had been in a relationship with each other previously. They already knew each other well in the past, but don't know if their character's have changed in the intervening years. Hopefully their relationship will be stronger with the seven year delay, but it does seem sad they broke up in the first place.
3. Did you have a favourite character or one you loved to hate? Do you think Austen was unfair to Mrs Clay and too kind to Mrs Smith for instance?
Mary was certainly a character to love to hate. She seemed to have a chip on her shoulder about everything and enjoyed finding things to be upset over. On this reading I did think Austen was a bit unfair to Mrs. Clay. It was okay for Wentworth to pursue an Elliot, but wrong for Mrs. Clay. Perhaps her motives were entirely selfish and just seeking money and power, but she was pursuing widowers, not trying to steal a married man or desert a deserving man for a wealthier one. It was hinted Mrs. Smith had made some mistakes in life and lived only for enjoyment, but it seemed she had mostly reformed. I think she should have warned Anne about Mr. Elliot however.
4. If you've seen any adaptations of the book, what did you think of them?
I have liked all the adaptions I have seen, but my favourite would be the 2007 adaption. Though the men were the best looking in the 2022 adaption in my opinion - shallow, but nice viewing for a romance - but I felt Anne was not quite right in that one. A bit too dramatic perhaps.
5. One of the things I like about the book is that I know The Cobb in Lyme Regis, and I can really picture the scene when Louisa jumps from it. Do you think knowing the settings of scenes makes a difference to your enjoyment of them?
I don't know if it makes a difference. I have been to England, but not specifically to the settings of Austen's books. I do regret not visiting Bath during my time there. I nearly did just before returning to Australia, but last minute train tickets were expensive. Now I think it would have been worth the cost.
My favourite Austen-related place is Winchester Cathedral, where she's buried. It has a fascinating history.
She does tell her father off with the "there are other poor widows" passage, which she never says out loud in the novel (I like the 2005 adaption very much; among Austen adaptations, its look and feel is probably closest to the actual time period--except for the significant error of characters wearing uniforms when off-duty).
Per the questions:
Persuasion is tied with Mansfield Park as my favorites.
Mrs. Smith not revealing Mr. Elliot's character is indeed problematic, with all the adaptations having to do rewrites (with the 2007 adaptation even having her stagger outside with Nurse Rooke to warn Anne). Mrs. Clay's obvious dissembling IMO puts her firmly as a negative character.
I have a soft spot for Lady Russell, who truly wants the best for Anne.
(Also per Mrs. Clay, one possible indication that Austen wasn't done fine-tuning Persuasion is that no mention whatsoever is made of her children after her introduction.
I think it still would have been better had Wentworth had contacted Anne when he first got a captaincy.
Tangent: Years ago, my local JASNA chapter did a skit doing various versions of the initial scene between Anne and Mary in different genres (Spanish Novella, Noo Yawk, etc.); some audience members were nor amused.
Re-reading Pesuasion was interesting as I loved it when I first read it, couldn't get into it the second time and enjoyed it again this time. Not sure what made the second reading so tricky. I'm not quite sure where I'd place it. I have a soft spot for Mansfield Park, as I like the glimpse of a very ordinary household you get in that, though you do see a bit of that in this when they visit Harville and Bentick in Lyme. I used to live somewhere where you could catch a bus to Mansfield Park. It turned out to be a housing estate.
2. Is this the most romantic of Austen's novels. What do you think of Anne and Wentworth's relationship? Will be stronger from the seven years or so delay?
It seemed like a very credible love story unlike Darcy and Elizabeth and one that was far more equal than most in the Austen canon.
3. Did you have a favourite character or one you loved to hate? Do you think Austen was unfair to Mrs Clay and too kind to Mrs Smith for instance?
I thought the comedy Austen got out of Sir Walter and Mary was well done. Anne comes across as one of those sensible people you'd like to know. I thought Austen was a little unfair to Mrs Clay. Like Clare inWives and Daughters she's trying to make the best of the hand she's been dealt, but unlike Gaskell's portrait which retains some sympathy for someone who seems far less likeable than Mrs Clay, Austen doesn't seem to have any sympathy for her at all. I find Mrs Smith a little puzzling. I read one review that suggested Austen died before she could properly edit the book. Mrs Smith seems to be parachuted in so that Anne can find out the truth about Mr Eliott rather than a character properly knitted into the plot. Also Mrs Clay's children are mentioned once and then never again, what happened to them?
4. If you've seen any adaptations of the book, what did you think of them?
I've only seen the film with Ciaran Hinds as Wentworth, which I thought was rather good. I liked the portrayal of Mr Bentick mourning for his lost fiancé by reading romantic poetry but easily cheered up when Louisa comes on the scene.
5. One of the things I like about the book is that I know The Cobb in Lyme Regis, and I can really picture the scene when Louisa jumps from it. Do you think knowing the settings of scenes makes a difference to your enjoyment of them?
I know Lyme quite well, though I haven't been there for a few years. I remember going on about the Louisa falling off the Cobb scene when I first went there, much to the puzzlement of my husband who hasn't read the book. I don't know Bath very well at all, but I can see how someone like Austen would find all the socialising and showing off tiresome.
I also wondered what happened to Mrs Clay's children, although if she was seriously trying to get Sir Walter to marry her, farming them out to someone else (presumably a relative) would have been her first move, both to make sure they didn't do anything to annoy Sir Walter and to avoid reminding him that she came with encumbrances. Maybe Austen originally had a different idea in mind for the character that required her to have children, and then changed her mind and forgot to remove all the references to them, as Belisarus suggests.