There has been a successful appeal to baser instinBut they are also victims of fraud, perpetrated by the most successful fraudster of our time.
A topic that has interested me for a while now is how much moral culpability we can place upon the gullible. Something I've heard at least one disappointed Trump voter say...
Well, his policies just seem to be making everything worse for me, but I still gotta trust him, 'cuz he's a businessman so he must know what he's doing.
Is it wrong to laugh at this guy for continually getting duped by Trump? After all, he probably does sincerely believe that Trump is a brilliant businessman who will soon be leading everyone to the land of milk and honey.
The brilliant businessman myth flies in the face of his many business failures. For which there is substantial evidence. A continuing believer must also accept the “fake news” assertion. The real question to the continuing deluded is “why don’t you check things out”.
I think it's more a straw to grasp at. People don't like to admit, even to themselves, that they've been wrong. Or, even worse, that their hated adversaries have been right all along. So they need to find reasons not to abandon Trump and one of these is the "businessman" line.
That said, not being very bright is not a moral failure any more than being of short stature. Even more so perhaps if your education system has failed in not giving you the tools to critically appraise information.
I have some relatives who are drinking all the Trump Kool-Aid. It's so hard to come to the understanding that they aren't very bright, or else they are choosing to be ignorant.
My favorite cousin has been trying to help our younger cousin understand how many things she is so totally wrong about. Younger cousin is absolutely adamant about how wrong we are and we just aren't looking at what she calls 'facts'.
It's not just the uneducated or uninformed for whom trump is a role model. A friend's son is well educated and extremely bright; bright enough to have founded a software company that he sold for over a billion US$. He is a serious trump supporter, to the despair of his father.
We’ll see. I certainly hope the GOP gets a thumping in the midterms. Trump has two years to go. It would be much better if Congress is able to exercise more control over his impulsive, erratic, actions.
They are currently able to exercise more control but choose not to. Shame on them.
It's not just the uneducated or uninformed for whom trump is a role model. A friend's son is well educated and extremely bright; bright enough to have founded a software company that he sold for over a billion US$. He is a serious trump supporter, to the despair of his father.
Absolutely - I don't think it is about intellect. Rather it is about buying into a political identity. Whether you are smart or not, you may choose to see Trump as a bully or as "strong". You may choose to see his policies as "horrific" or "necessary". Shifting your ground means shifting your identity and changing your relationship with your former fellow-travellers. The push to change has to be quite strong and it is (I think) for most people less likely to come from reason and more likely to come from emotional reactions, personal circumstances and the beliefs of others one trusts. Once you have chosen your side, arguments in your own support will occur to you.
It's not just the uneducated or uninformed for whom trump is a role model. A friend's son is well educated and extremely bright; bright enough to have founded a software company that he sold for over a billion US$. He is a serious trump supporter, to the despair of his father.
If the man sold a software company for over 1bil, something tells me he is in a class that has benefitted the most from Trump.
It's not just the uneducated or uninformed for whom trump is a role model. A friend's son is well educated and extremely bright; bright enough to have founded a software company that he sold for over a billion US$. He is a serious trump supporter, to the despair of his father.
If the man sold a software company for over 1bil, something tells me he is in a class that has benefitted the most from Trump.
It's not just the uneducated or uninformed for whom trump is a role model. A friend's son is well educated and extremely bright; bright enough to have founded a software company that he sold for over a billion US$. He is a serious trump supporter, to the despair of his father.
If the man sold a software company for over 1bil, something tells me he is in a class that has benefitted the most from Trump.
Yeah, I was wondering if this tech tycoon was more into Trump qua Trump, aka MAGA, ie. people who might have expected Trump to do stuff that benefits the working class; OR if he was more just into Trump as a typical Republican who does favours for the rich and has been able to deliver at least a coupla congressional majorities for that same agenda.
It's not just the uneducated or uninformed for whom trump is a role model. A friend's son is well educated and extremely bright; bright enough to have founded a software company that he sold for over a billion US$. He is a serious trump supporter, to the despair of his father.
If the man sold a software company for over 1bil, something tells me he is in a class that has benefitted the most from Trump.
I'm not going to 'out' him, but I can say that his software products do considerable good at all levels of public safety. His personal ethics and philanthropic activity put him a universe away from trump, hence my bewilderment. (When I said 'supporter' in the earlier post, I did not mean financial - I have no knowledge of that aspect, if it exists at all).
The Guardian had an interesting piece on the Trump women who have either been fired or stepped down. I hate to say it, but the one common feature of those women was that they were "pretty faces." There was certainly a lack of substance.
It's not just the uneducated or uninformed for whom trump is a role model. A friend's son is well educated and extremely bright; bright enough to have founded a software company that he sold for over a billion US$. He is a serious trump supporter, to the despair of his father.
If the man sold a software company for over 1bil, something tells me he is in a class that has benefitted the most from Trump.
I'm not going to 'out' him, but I can say that his software products do considerable good at all levels of public safety. His personal ethics and philanthropic activity put him a universe away from trump, hence my bewilderment. (When I said 'supporter' in the earlier post, I did not mean financial - I have no knowledge of that aspect, if it exists at all).
The Guardian had an interesting piece on the Trump women who have either been fired or stepped down. I hate to say it, but the one common feature of those women was that they were "pretty faces." There was certainly a lack of substance.
Blonde bimbos is the term, isn't it?
It's also a deeply misogynistic term. Misogyny isn't OK just because the targets might not be very nice.
Speaking of slur words, Trump a coupla days ago repeated his 2025 use of "shylock" to mean a greedy businessman. The ADL then issued a statement condemning the word, without mentioning who said it, or any other indication as to what had prompted their statement.
Speaking of slur words, Trump a coupla days ago repeated his 2025 use of "shylock" to mean a greedy businessman. The ADL then issued a statement condemning the word, without mentioning who said it, or any other indication as to what had prompted their statement.
The ADL also didn't think that Musk's Nazi salute was antisemitic or worthy of condemnation.
Speaking of slur words, Trump a coupla days ago repeated his 2025 use of "shylock" to mean a greedy businessman. The ADL then issued a statement condemning the word, without mentioning who said it, or any other indication as to what had prompted their statement.
The ADL also didn't think that Musk's Nazi salute was antisemitic or worthy of condemnation.
Speaking of slur words, Trump a coupla days ago repeated his 2025 use of "shylock" to mean a greedy businessman. The ADL then issued a statement condemning the word, without mentioning who said it, or any other indication as to what had prompted their statement.
The ADL also didn't think that Musk's Nazi salute was antisemitic or worthy of condemnation.
@stetson , that's pretty fucking anti Semitic right there. Surely you aren't saying antisemitism does not exist, or that Jews have no right to defend against it?
Unfortunately the majority of my family (parents, aunts/uncles) are still hardcore Trumpers.
On top of the normal stress of enduring his endlessly corrupt, hateful, and ignorant presidency. I've also lost close ties with the majority of my family over this
Unfortunately the majority of my family (parents, aunts/uncles) are still hardcore Trumpers.
On top of the normal stress of enduring his endlessly corrupt, hateful, and ignorant presidency. I've also lost close ties with the majority of my family over this
I believe this is part of a very modern ill, namely the demise of empathy. Your presidents have often polarised opinion, but has any ever been quite so divisive?
@stetson , that's pretty fucking anti Semitic right there. Surely you aren't saying antisemitism does not exist, or that Jews have no right to defend against it?
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that the ADL these days seems less concerned with defending Jews against antisemitism, and more concerned with defending the interests of an expansionist, ethnonationalist state.
Trump isn't comparable to any other President we've ever had.
It's beyond a difference of opinion with him. It's support for blatant, outright corruption, white nationalism, and Christian Nationalism on a scale we've never seen before.
The only comparable figure I can think of is George Wallace, the segregationist Governor of Alabama in the 60s
Unfortunately the majority of my family (parents, aunts/uncles) are still hardcore Trumpers.
On top of the normal stress of enduring his endlessly corrupt, hateful, and ignorant presidency. I've also lost close ties with the majority of my family over this
That really sucks. I'm sorry you're in this position.
I was recently gladdened by something in my neighborhood. Immediately after Charlie Kirk was killed, two houses up the street put up the same sign that said "In God We Trust. Pray for America." Recently one was removed. It was still in good shape, and the family didn't move out, so I'm hoping they decided Christian nationalism isn't something they want to advertise to everyone who walks by.
Unfortunately the majority of my family (parents, aunts/uncles) are still hardcore Trumpers.
On top of the normal stress of enduring his endlessly corrupt, hateful, and ignorant presidency. I've also lost close ties with the majority of my family over this
That really sucks. I'm sorry you're in this position.
Amen to that. One of the most distressing aspects of Trump and his enablers is that they have caused these painful divisions. And that's speaking as an overseas observer. It must be a hundred times worse as a citizen.
I was recently gladdened by something in my neighborhood. Immediately after Charlie Kirk was killed, two houses up the street put up the same sign that said "In God We Trust. Pray for America." Recently one was removed. It was still in good shape, and the family didn't move out, so I'm hoping they decided Christian nationalism isn't something they want to advertise to everyone who walks by.
I do think the challenge for 2028 for the Democratic party will be to find a healer. But I will not hijack this thread. Maybe in a few days we can begin talking about that.
I do think the challenge for 2028 for the Democratic party will be to find a healer. But I will not hijack this thread. Maybe in a few days we can begin talking about that.
Please, no! I know the presidential race pretty much starts the day after the midterms are over, but let’s take some time to process and recover from the midterms before diving into 2028.
I do think the challenge for 2028 for the Democratic party will be to find a healer. But I will not hijack this thread. Maybe in a few days we can begin talking about that.
Please, no! I know the presidential race pretty much starts the day after the midterms are over, but let’s take some time to process and recover from the midterms before diving into 2028.
You are right. We do need time to digest the midterms. Maybe a month
Meanwhile:
Pete Hegseth reportedly in therapy due to Trump.
Depression.
"He never says anything about MY ass!
And I do pushups!"
I do think the challenge for 2028 for the Democratic party will be to find a healer. But I will not hijack this thread. Maybe in a few days we can begin talking about that.
Please, no! I know the presidential race pretty much starts the day after the midterms are over, but let’s take some time to process and recover from the midterms before diving into 2028.
You are right. We do need time to digest the midterms. Maybe a month.
I do think the challenge for 2028 for the Democratic party will be to find a healer. But I will not hijack this thread. Maybe in a few days we can begin talking about that.
Trump isn't comparable to any other President we've ever had.
It's beyond a difference of opinion with him. It's support for blatant, outright corruption, white nationalism, and Christian Nationalism on a scale we've never seen before.
The only comparable figure I can think of is George Wallace, the segregationist Governor of Alabama in the 60s
Very sorry to read that. I think his repeated assertions of fake news, different “facts”, plus cheating, must have made it impossible to break through in family discussions. Dialogue becomes impossible if you are seen as having been deceived. A knife that cuts both ways.
Unlike say religious cult following, the cult of Trump seems impervious to any suggestion that a change of mind might be helpful. Deprogramming Trump cultists looks like a long job. Even after he’s gone.
Trump isn't comparable to any other President we've ever had.
It's beyond a difference of opinion with him. It's support for blatant, outright corruption, white nationalism, and Christian Nationalism on a scale we've never seen before.
The only comparable figure I can think of is George Wallace, the segregationist Governor of Alabama in the 60s
Very sorry to read that. I think his repeated assertions of fake news, different “facts”, plus cheating, must have made it impossible to break through in family discussions. Dialogue becomes impossible if you are seen as having been deceived. A knife that cuts both ways.
Unlike say religious cult following, the cult of Trump seems impervious to any suggestion that a change of mind might be helpful. Deprogramming Trump cultists looks like a long job. Even after he’s gone.
He won't go. He'll linger loathesomely in the hearts and minds of his followers for years to come.
Trump isn't comparable to any other President we've ever had.
It's beyond a difference of opinion with him. It's support for blatant, outright corruption, white nationalism, and Christian Nationalism on a scale we've never seen before.
The only comparable figure I can think of is George Wallace, the segregationist Governor of Alabama in the 60s
Very sorry to read that. I think his repeated assertions of fake news, different “facts”, plus cheating, must have made it impossible to break through in family discussions. Dialogue becomes impossible if you are seen as having been deceived. A knife that cuts both ways.
Unlike say religious cult following, the cult of Trump seems impervious to any suggestion that a change of mind might be helpful. Deprogramming Trump cultists looks like a long job. Even after he’s gone.
He won't go. He'll linger loathesomely in the hearts and minds of his followers for years to come.
And yet he has actually pissed off quite a segment of his once-ardent followers because they see his tariff wars and war in Iran as directly counter to America First ideology and to his “no unending wars” promises.
I'm sure that's true, but the hardcore followers still remain, or so we hear on this side of the Pond.
Most of the hardcore followers do indeed remain. But given that it was long assumed that he had a firm hold on all of his hardcore followers and that they’d all stand by him no matter what, that he’s now losing many of those who a year or two ago were hardcore followers is significant.
Plus he can't live forever. If he dies in office, I really want him to stroke out overnight or go some other sudden way so he doesn't have a chance to issue all the pardons he's talked about.
I turn on the news every morning hoping to hear "Breaking News" of exactly what you said. But as for the pardons, I fear his sidekick would issue them anyway. Our only hope is for the House to flip Democrat, for Hakeem Jeffries to be appointed Speaker, and then for you-know-who and his sidekick to both stroke out or exit otherwise. Then Jeffries would be President.
I'm sure that's true, but the hardcore followers still remain, or so we hear on this side of the Pond.
The ones for whom it's a part of their identity, sure. The cult members. But he's lost a lot of people.
I remember how popular Reagan was in office, way more popular than Trump has ever been. But once he was gone, so was the mystique, and it was definitely NOT a foregone conclusion that GHW Bush would ride the Gipper's coattails to the White House, and by '92 his impact was obviously even more truncated.
A good test would be: if ex-potus Trump endorses a particular candidate for a future Republican primary, how many of the voters otherwise disinclined to support that candudate would change their mind?
A lot of the UK YouTube serious news commentators are picking up that he seems disinhibited about fetishing men’s bodies in his recent rallies. Leading on into the series of questions, is he bi and been hiding it, if so wtf given how damaging his policies have been for the lgbtq+ community, and will this put off his evangelical base ?
Comments
A topic that has interested me for a while now is how much moral culpability we can place upon the gullible. Something I've heard at least one disappointed Trump voter say...
Well, his policies just seem to be making everything worse for me, but I still gotta trust him, 'cuz he's a businessman so he must know what he's doing.
Is it wrong to laugh at this guy for continually getting duped by Trump? After all, he probably does sincerely believe that Trump is a brilliant businessman who will soon be leading everyone to the land of milk and honey.
What is honey without toast?
As to toast, let them eat cake...
Spot on. My only cavil is that the state of wilful ignorance may well be a moral failure.
My favorite cousin has been trying to help our younger cousin understand how many things she is so totally wrong about. Younger cousin is absolutely adamant about how wrong we are and we just aren't looking at what she calls 'facts'.
It's so frustrating.
They are currently able to exercise more control but choose not to. Shame on them.
Absolutely - I don't think it is about intellect. Rather it is about buying into a political identity. Whether you are smart or not, you may choose to see Trump as a bully or as "strong". You may choose to see his policies as "horrific" or "necessary". Shifting your ground means shifting your identity and changing your relationship with your former fellow-travellers. The push to change has to be quite strong and it is (I think) for most people less likely to come from reason and more likely to come from emotional reactions, personal circumstances and the beliefs of others one trusts. Once you have chosen your side, arguments in your own support will occur to you.
If the man sold a software company for over 1bil, something tells me he is in a class that has benefitted the most from Trump.
That's what I was thinking.
Yeah, I was wondering if this tech tycoon was more into Trump qua Trump, aka MAGA, ie. people who might have expected Trump to do stuff that benefits the working class; OR if he was more just into Trump as a typical Republican who does favours for the rich and has been able to deliver at least a coupla congressional majorities for that same agenda.
I'm not going to 'out' him, but I can say that his software products do considerable good at all levels of public safety. His personal ethics and philanthropic activity put him a universe away from trump, hence my bewilderment. (When I said 'supporter' in the earlier post, I did not mean financial - I have no knowledge of that aspect, if it exists at all).
That's good to know. PTL.
It's also a deeply misogynistic term. Misogyny isn't OK just because the targets might not be very nice.
The ADL also didn't think that Musk's Nazi salute was antisemitic or worthy of condemnation.
ADL: Americans Defending Lebensraum.
Plenty of room in Greenland of course.
On top of the normal stress of enduring his endlessly corrupt, hateful, and ignorant presidency. I've also lost close ties with the majority of my family over this
I believe this is part of a very modern ill, namely the demise of empathy. Your presidents have often polarised opinion, but has any ever been quite so divisive?
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that the ADL these days seems less concerned with defending Jews against antisemitism, and more concerned with defending the interests of an expansionist, ethnonationalist state.
It's beyond a difference of opinion with him. It's support for blatant, outright corruption, white nationalism, and Christian Nationalism on a scale we've never seen before.
The only comparable figure I can think of is George Wallace, the segregationist Governor of Alabama in the 60s
That really sucks. I'm sorry you're in this position.
I was recently gladdened by something in my neighborhood. Immediately after Charlie Kirk was killed, two houses up the street put up the same sign that said "In God We Trust. Pray for America." Recently one was removed. It was still in good shape, and the family didn't move out, so I'm hoping they decided Christian nationalism isn't something they want to advertise to everyone who walks by.
I hope so too!
You are right. We do need time to digest the midterms. Maybe a month
Meanwhile:
Depression.
"He never says anything about MY ass!
And I do pushups!"
A surgeon, perhaps, rather than a healer.
Very sorry to read that. I think his repeated assertions of fake news, different “facts”, plus cheating, must have made it impossible to break through in family discussions. Dialogue becomes impossible if you are seen as having been deceived. A knife that cuts both ways.
Unlike say religious cult following, the cult of Trump seems impervious to any suggestion that a change of mind might be helpful. Deprogramming Trump cultists looks like a long job. Even after he’s gone.
And ended up carrying the Black vote by a large margin during his final(and succesful) run for governor in 1982.
He won't go. He'll linger loathesomely in the hearts and minds of his followers for years to come.
The ones for whom it's a part of their identity, sure. The cult members. But he's lost a lot of people.
The sidekick is too young. But he's also charisma-free. I doubt very much he could hold together the motley crew that is the current GOP.
I remember how popular Reagan was in office, way more popular than Trump has ever been. But once he was gone, so was the mystique, and it was definitely NOT a foregone conclusion that GHW Bush would ride the Gipper's coattails to the White House, and by '92 his impact was obviously even more truncated.
A good test would be: if ex-potus Trump endorses a particular candidate for a future Republican primary, how many of the voters otherwise disinclined to support that candudate would change their mind?