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Eccles: Escaped Hymns
On one of the other threads "There is a green hill" was considered as one where 'every church' sings it. It was pointed out that the Orthodox (even in America don't know it), and alleged that the Catholic's don't (Which is almost certainly true globally, but I'd bet against nationally).
So this is for (particularly post 1800*) hymns that you feel you'd expect most 'English' Churches to know regardless of denomination. And to then comment on whether they are indeed widespread. Or alternatively ones that are international but perhaps denominationally tied. Or perhaps ones that have escaped into a local community with affection.
So from the Anglicans, "Amazing Grace", one or 2 Kendrick ones, a few Dudley Smith
From the Weslyans "And can it be" and others by Charles
From the Catholics "At the name of Jesus", Taize O Lord Hear my prayer, "Make me a channel"
*As then they've actively crossed a boundary. I mean you can mention you sing Psalm 23 too, but at that point try to make it interesting.
So this is for (particularly post 1800*) hymns that you feel you'd expect most 'English' Churches to know regardless of denomination. And to then comment on whether they are indeed widespread. Or alternatively ones that are international but perhaps denominationally tied. Or perhaps ones that have escaped into a local community with affection.
So from the Anglicans, "Amazing Grace", one or 2 Kendrick ones, a few Dudley Smith
From the Weslyans "And can it be" and others by Charles
From the Catholics "At the name of Jesus", Taize O Lord Hear my prayer, "Make me a channel"
*As then they've actively crossed a boundary. I mean you can mention you sing Psalm 23 too, but at that point try to make it interesting.
Comments
To take another recent example, I teased my students about the poor quality of hymn singing in our school chapel. Several of them responded by saying that they liked to sing "good Jesus songs" and then named examples which were totally unfamiliar to me.
Of the hymns mentioned in the OP, I know only Amazing Grace by heard. I've sung "And Can it Be" reasonably often, and I would recognize "Make me a Chanel of your Peace."
Most widely known hymn in the US: Amazing Grace, Christmas carols.
Widely known hymns amongst non-churchgoing Britains: Christmas carols, "Guide me, O thou Great Jehovah/Redeemer;" maybe "Morning has Broken," "All Things Bright and Beautiful," and "I vow to thee my country."
For Britons who actually attend church, I'd also expect them to know "Thine be the glory" and perhaps a few others.
IJ
A lot of them aren't ones I would have chosen but there are only three I don't know + one which I think must be one the BBC would like us all to sing. Although I know it from hearing it on the programme, I've never heard it sung anywhere else. All four are 50+ in the list.
Incidentally, going back to the OP, I don't think At the Name of Jesus is originally Catholic, and anything Taize is ecumenical Protestant. O come all ye faithful, though is Catholic. It comes from the Catholic chapel to the Portuguese Embassy in London. So is Praise to the Holiest in the Height as Newman wrote it after he crossed the Tiber. People have plundered each other's hymns and have been doing so for years.
Another surprising thing is that different denominations and different countries turn out to have completely different ideas as to what tune goes with which hymn.
At a (Southern Baptist) funeral yesterday, I heard another that gets mention on the Ship periodically: “In Christ Alone.” The tune sounded vaguely familiar, so I guess maybe I’ve heard it somewhere before (or maybe it’s just one of those tunes), but this was the first time I’d heard and been aware of what I was hearing.
And @jay_emm, with regard to “There is a Green Hill,” it was also pointed out by a few of us in that other thread that it’s not sung by American Presbyterians. You seemed surprised at the suggestion that American Catholics wouldn’t know it. I’d be very surprised if any did, unless they’d grown up singing it in a different denomination.
@Bishops Finger, my take on Crimond is that it can be quite nice when played and sung properly, which—here at least—happens all too rarely.
Most of the other singers are regular church-goers and are heavily involved with the musical life of their respective Catholic parishes. So it came as a shock to me when most of them complained about the unfamiliar final hymn that they had been sight-reading during the service, suggesting that something better known ought to have been chosen.
They were referring to Lo, He comes with clouds descending.
I heard an Episcopal choirmaster/organist go on a little rant recently about The Hymnal 1982 not using the Ebenezer line, which he considered an example of dumbing down. (We do use the Ebenezer line.)
Churches of all denominations in Australia sing each other's songs now, because they're projected onto a screen, or printed (with a melody line) on a service sheet. This makes for eclectic and ecumenical repertoires.
The last verse of "There is a green hill borders on Pelagian - "And try his works to do".
It's worse now. It's still fairly common, but undertakers/crems no longer want to pay for an organist, so a choral version is played over the speakers for the congregation to "sing along to".
This is, of course, impossible, because the key chosen for choral recordings is never one that is good for a congregation to sing.
I grew up on the NEH, and never encountered it until I got to theological college when I was 23. I still don't like it, because people sing different parts and I never know which bits I'm supposed to sing.
"And try his works to do" isn't Pelagian unless you take it out of context. The previous line is "and trust in his redeeming blood,".
The version of Psalm 23 that goes to Crimond comes from the Scottish psalter. As it is in Common Metre, it can be sung to a number of other tunes. I've heard that in Scotland it is sometimes sung to Martyrs an attractive modal tune that changes its timing part way through the last line. That itself is not the same tune as Martyrdom the tune linked in England to Psalm 42 As pants the hart.
There is always scope for creativity between organist, choirmaster, poor sap who has to choose the hymns, or whoever. A session led by John Bell (he of Iona fame) made just this point at a Diocesan Conference I attended some aeons ago...
IJ
Interesting that "O God our help in ages past" is not on that list. IIRC some survey within my lifetime had it as Britains favourite hymn.
The test for Presbyterians or is it just Scots that would have this version of Psalm 24.
If you want the English Congregational equivalent Watts' version of PSalm 122 but few remember that.
The URC equivalent is Watts' "When I survey the wondrous cross"
Jengie
But yes, BT's list would probably be suitable for churches around here, though interdenominational Good Friday services tend to be dominated by the local char-evo church and its praise band...
IJ
That's a very common one over here, but I think the Episcopalians are the only ones who sing it to Rockingham. The rest of us sing it to Hamburg. (Rockingham is given as an alternate tune in our hymnal, but I’ve never heard a Presbyterian congregation use it.)
Just in case. (This is a concert arrangement, but a nice one.)
Except for Christmas hymns. On St Nicholas' day# (Dec 6 I think) a few old favourites would be belted out by the choir and congregation at my parish in Sydney town. Silent Night and O Come All Ye Faithful I seem to recall, plus some others.
So it appears Father was fine with Christmas songs in Advent.
# or was it the Sunday before Nativity/Christmas? I truly cannot recall.
I've not heard Hamburg used for When I survey. It's not a tune I'm familiar with. Traditionally, here, it has always been sung to Rockingham, but in the last 10 years or so, it has begun also to be sung to the folk tune Waly Waly which it fits rather well. Og is that the setting you're referring to when you talk about the praise band treatment.
Rockingham is also the usual tune for My God and is thy table spread?.
And up to the early 20th Century it was sung to that splendid tune Belmont. The story goes that the Glasgow Orpheus Choir of immortal renown were making a recording of hymns, and The Lord's My Shepherd was on the list, but as they'd already used Belmont for one of the other hymns they cast around for a different CM tune and came up with Crimond; and the rest is history.
Brother James' Air is nice as well.
Jengie
Hymnal 1982 uses Rockingham for both “Survey” and “My God Thy Table Now is Spread,” as you note, but we discovered last week when singing the latter that the harmonizations are different. Our organist wasn’t aware, and just started playing the one from “Cross” at rehearsal, which threw the rest of us, who were singing the notes on the page for “Table,” for a loop. (There are other examples in 1982 where one tune will be in different keys on two separate hymns. This led to a few sopranos really straining when we tried using a descendant written for a tune, but the version a few keys lower.)
Nobody's projector has enough resolution to project a satisfactory SATB score.
An RC friend staying at the moment says he has never used of heard sung At the name of Jesus in an RC church. His first choice for RC "in common" hymns would be Sweet Sacrament divine and Faith of our Fathers.
Yes, we have And I'm as surprised when I hear people say this as I would be were they to say something like "we don't tell people the budget because they're all innumerate" or something. When I went to school (in the UK) everyone learned recorder, and so everyone learned to read music at at least a rudimentary fashion. My church in the UK had some copies of the hynmal with an SATB score and some with just the melody, and you could choose which you wanted. Don't remember which hymnal, though - it was green, but that hardly helps. None of this seemed terribly unusual, but I suppose the things you grow up with don't.
When I think RC, I think “Holy God, We Praise Your Name.”
I'm quite surprised - I thought there would be more, especially as several of our regular hymns aren't on that list; "Thou art before me, Lord" for example.
I've certainly found that moving from a middle of the road English Anglican milieu to that of Scottish Presbyterianism that there are a few hymns and particularly metrical psalms with which I'm unfamiliar. I also get repeatedly tripped up by different tunes for O for a thousand tongues, Just as I am, and others. That said, I think I've probably come across more that I know that are unfamiliar here than vice-versa. Some of them for obvious reasons, like And now, O Father, mindful of the love and others that are in the hymnbooks but simply not used, like Come Holy Ghost our souls inspire.
I've sung it in church on a number of occasions, although its first verse is often seen as somewhat problematic these days, so I think it's going to fall further out of favour. As I read down the list, my first unfamiliar hymn is "Will Your Anchor Hold In The Storms Of Life" which I have never come across at all.
Like Jengie, I'm surprised that "O God our help in ages past" didn't rate a mention - I'd certainly regard it as one of the standard hymns that comes around regularly in the rotation.
I'd also think that schoolboy favourite "He who would valiant be" would rank higher based on people's memories of their schooldays, but perhaps we're a generation late for that to register much.
"Will your anchor hold" is the Boys Brigade hymn here, so we sing it annually at least.
There are Faith of our Fathers Taught of Old and also Faith of our Fathers, Living Still.
That's the last time I post from my phone.
Additionally 'O come to my heart Lord Jesus' and 'What a friend we have in Jesus' go down well at Benediction.
Why should the evangelicals have all the best tune?
According to Wikipedia the 7th day Adventists really like it.
Taken on its own (and not as a coded call for sedition against church and state ) it seems perfectly acceptable.
He who would true valour see
When I survey the wondrous cross
Yep, two Puritan hymns out of four.
Jengie
In all there were 10 That I had never heard of..