Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread.

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  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host
    I did notice today that Trump did not participate in the hymns or in saying the Apostles' Creed. Hmmm.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    You know, I caught a few minutes of the Bush obsequies over lunch. Bush 41 was far from my favorite president (43 is even further down my list), but at least he signed the ADA into law. That said, I think I want to start laying plans now to do whatever it's going to takes to prevent 44.1 from ever getting a funeral like that. If the Saudis or Russians or Chinese or whoever want to give him an elaborate state funeral (at their expense and on their soil, please) in recognition of his services to their assorted causes, fine; let them. But not here, not us, no way.
  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host
    Ohher wrote: »
    I think I want to start laying plans now to do whatever it's going to takes to prevent 44.1 from ever getting a funeral like that.

    Oh, I hope you mean 45.1! 44 deserves all kinds of honors, IMHO.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    jedijudy wrote: »
    Ohher wrote: »
    I think I want to start laying plans now to do whatever it's going to takes to prevent 44.1 from ever getting a funeral like that.

    Oh, I hope you mean 45.1! 44 deserves all kinds of honors, IMHO.

    Oops -- yes. It's 45.1 I had in mind. 44 is tops on my list of faves.
  • Hmmm. I doubt T knows the Apostles' Creed. Lots of people don't, and many churches don't use it. (John 3:16 is as close to a creed as many churches get.)

    From watching him the last few years, I think he often has problems memorizing/reciting; and religion makes little, if any, sense to him.

    FWIW.

    PS I'm surprised he was even at the service. The news said that the Bush family & co. had been very clear that he wouldn't be the center of things, or something to that effect.
  • GwaiGwai Purgatory Host
    From the picture I saw, they were all (but Trump?) holding a copy of a paper with the creed on it. All were reading from it except Trump and Obama. Obama was reciting from memory.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited December 2018
    Gwai wrote: »
    From the picture I saw, they were all (but Trump?) holding a copy of a paper with the creed on it. All were reading from it except Trump and Obama. Obama was reciting from memory.

    Truth be known, I don't think I can find many Lutherans who could cite the Mass--I mean, liturgy--from memory. I do, unless I am the worship leader, then I will use a printed text.

    Face it, while 45 claims to be baptized in the Presbyterian tradition, he knows so little about worship.

    I am listening to Omarosa's book Unhinged. Trump wanted to speak at a black worship service, so she set him up with one. He had thought the service would be a quick in and out deal, but he found out he would have to stay through the whole service--over two hours. Her description of Trump's reactions during the service were hilarious.
  • T recently did something similar. He was at an international gathering--probably the conference in Argentina. He went onstage, shook someone's hand--and then rapidly scooted offstage, with some sort of aide, handler, or minion in hot pursuit. T reportedly then said "Get me out of here!"
  • Gwai wrote: »
    From the picture I saw, they were all (but Trump?) holding a copy of a paper with the creed on it. All were reading from it except Trump and Obama. Obama was reciting from memory.

    But he's a Muslim...
  • Oh, this is good!

    Colbert just shared a story about how Giuliani (T's current lawyer) tweeted complaints about what was said about T. Some brilliant person took part of that, abbreviated it, and bought a Web domain in that name.

    And *then* they put up this page...

    ROTFL!!!
  • Gwai wrote: »
    From the picture I saw, they were all (but Trump?) holding a copy of a paper with the creed on it. All were reading from it except Trump and Obama. Obama was reciting from memory.

    But he's a Muslim...

    LOL.

    *Gwai*, I just saw a clip, and Obama did like most people: looked down at the text of the prayer, then looked up and spoke what he read, over and over. Maybe he does know it, though. He's an adult convert to Christianity. At Trinity United Church of Christ, the church of the rather...blunt...Rev. Wright, IIRC. I don't know if the UCC uses creeds.

    However, Colbert (who's Catholic) made a point of showing how T wasn't participating.
  • jedijudy wrote: »
    I did notice today that Trump did not participate in the hymns or in saying the Apostles' Creed. Hmmm.

    Trump doesn't think it's necessary to believe in God but he does think it necessary for God to believe in him.
  • sionisais wrote: »
    jedijudy wrote: »
    I did notice today that Trump did not participate in the hymns or in saying the Apostles' Creed. Hmmm.

    Trump doesn't think it's necessary to believe in God but he does think it necessary for God to believe in him.

    That's it in a nutshell.
  • sionisais wrote: »
    Trump doesn't think it's necessary to believe in God but he does think it necessary for God to believe in him.
    Which just started an earworm from "Hair":
    And I'm a genius genius.
    I believe in God,
    And I believe that God
    Believes in Claude
    That's me, that's me.

    Change "Claude" to "Don" -- who also considers himself a "genius genius"!

  • Ohher wrote: »
    You know, I caught a few minutes of the Bush obsequies over lunch. Bush 41 was far from my favorite president (43 is even further down my list), but at least he signed the ADA into law.

    I often despair of the low standards for what a Republican has to do to be considered "good" these days. The Americans With Disabilities Act of 1990 [PDF] passed the House by a vote of 377-28 and the Senate 91-6. For those unfamiliar with the American system of government those are sufficient vote totals to override a presidential veto and indicate a bill only slightly more controversial than your typical post office renaming bill. Yet George Herbert Walker Bush (anagram: huge berserk rebel warthog) gets considered to be some exemplary profile in courage for signing the ADA instead of being a jerk and futilely sending it back to Congress to have his veto overridden. I guess it's considered impolite to mention his disastrous non-response to the peak of the HIV epidemic in America or that his administration was the one to decide that Republicans were going to fight tooth and nail against doing anything about climate change.
  • Piglet wrote: »
    We were watching the funeral on CNN, and D. noticed that when one of the speakers (I think it was Mr. Mulroney) mentioned Russia (in the course of an anecdote), the camera panned on to Trump, having avoided him for a good bit of the rest of the time. :innocent:

    I like those little cinematographic winks. I remember during the 1992 Republican convention, when one of the speakers mentioned the party's support for Israel, the cameras cut to James Baker sitting in the audience.

  • GwaiGwai Purgatory Host
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Gwai wrote: »
    From the picture I saw, they were all (but Trump?) holding a copy of a paper with the creed on it. All were reading from it except Trump and Obama. Obama was reciting from memory.

    But he's a Muslim...

    LOL.

    *Gwai*, I just saw a clip, and Obama did like most people: looked down at the text of the prayer, then looked up and spoke what he read, over and over. Maybe he does know it, though. He's an adult convert to Christianity. At Trinity United Church of Christ, the church of the rather...blunt...Rev. Wright, IIRC. I don't know if the UCC uses creeds.

    However, Colbert (who's Catholic) made a point of showing how T wasn't participating.
    Point then. I am probably too gullible about anything I see positive about Obama.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    During a Facebook conversation on the subject of how uncomfortable Trump looked at the funeral, I said I reckoned it was because he wasn't the centre of attention. Someone replied that he'd be happy to attend a funeral at which T. was the centre of attention. :naughty:

  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Crœsos wrote: »
    Ohher wrote: »
    You know, I caught a few minutes of the Bush obsequies over lunch. Bush 41 was far from my favorite president (43 is even further down my list), but at least he signed the ADA into law.

    I often despair of the low standards for what a Republican has to do to be considered "good" these days.

    Did I say he was good? I did not. Kindly do not claim that I did.
  • Piglet wrote: »
    During a Facebook conversation on the subject of how uncomfortable Trump looked at the funeral, I said I reckoned it was because he wasn't the centre of attention. Someone replied that he'd be happy to attend a funeral at which T. was the centre of attention. :naughty:

    :lol:
  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host
    Golden Key wrote: »
    I don't know if the UCC uses creeds.

    I was raised in the UCC. I don't know if our church was typical of UCCs around the country, but part of our catechism was to learn the Apostles' Creed. The same was true of all my friends who belonged to that denomination.


  • Gwai--
    Gwai wrote: »
    Point then. I am probably too gullible about anything I see positive about Obama.

    I wasn't trying to score points, and I'm sorry if it came across that way. And, as I said, it's possible that he did know the creed, but wanted a reminder, or simply followed everyone else. Probably hard to remember anything under those circumstances.
  • jedijudy--

    Thanks for the info. :)
  • I decided to skip footage of the funeral. I didn't think much of the bloke. I think he had bladder issues when he was VP. He always seemed to be in the bathroom when the Iran Contra matters were aired.

    He might have been better than Trump, I don't know. At least with Trump it is obvious that he is an evil prick. The manners of the aristocracy can sometimes obscure that.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    I decided to skip footage of the funeral. I didn't think much of the bloke. I think he had bladder issues when he was VP. He always seemed to be in the bathroom when the Iran Contra matters were aired.

    He might have been better than Trump, I don't know. At least with Trump it is obvious that he is an evil prick. The manners of the aristocracy can sometimes obscure that.

    "And I Want To Be The Anti-Flag-Burning President!"

  • GwaiGwai Purgatory Host
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Gwai--
    Gwai wrote: »
    Point then. I am probably too gullible about anything I see positive about Obama.

    I wasn't trying to score points, and I'm sorry if it came across that way. And, as I said, it's possible that he did know the creed, but wanted a reminder, or simply followed everyone else. Probably hard to remember anything under those circumstances.

    I just meant you had a [good] point. No worries.
  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host
    Golden Key wrote: »
    jedijudy--

    Thanks for the info. :)

    You're very welcome! Even though we recited the creed every week, and sang the Gloria Patri, we were at the bottom of the candle. In fact, we were under the table that the candle sits on!

    I should do some research on the church that the Obamas attended way back when. I remember reading that the pastor of that church was a bit wack-a-doodle.
  • GwaiGwai Purgatory Host
    jedijudy wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    jedijudy--

    Thanks for the info. :)

    I should do some research on the church that the Obamas attended way back when. I remember reading that the pastor of that church was a bit wack-a-doodle.

    It's complicated. He wouldn't suit me but a lot of the attacks on him were Republican slander arranged by taking his words mightily out of context.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    jedijudy wrote: »
    Even though we recited the creed every week, and sang the Gloria Patri, we were at the bottom of the candle. In fact, we were under the table that the candle sits on!

    You would be if "every week" includes Advent and Lent. Miss Amanda would need more than smelling salts to revive her under those circumstances.
  • So apparently prosecutors are seeking a "substantial prison term" for Michael Cohen in his sentencing document. In this case "substantial" means between 43 and 63 months.
  • john holdingjohn holding Ecclesiantics Host, Dead Horses Host, Mystery Worshipper Host
    jedijudy wrote: »
    Even though we recited the creed every week, and sang the Gloria Patri, we were at the bottom of the candle. In fact, we were under the table that the candle sits on!

    You would be if "every week" includes Advent and Lent. Miss Amanda would need more than smelling salts to revive her under those circumstances.

    Nothing against saying/singing Gloria Patri in those seasons...if you're using a psalm which appropriately ends with it. Now, if you're talking about Gloria In Excelsis Deo, that might be a bit problematic -- though not if you're thinking of Anglican use before liturgical reform when it was actually required in those seasons (as through the year). And, of course, non-Anglicans (which is what we're talking about) have never had to follow anglican practice. If I were you, I'd save my smelling salts for a better use.
  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host
    You would be if "every week" includes Advent and Lent. Miss Amanda would need more than smelling salts to revive her under those circumstances.

    We didn't do either Advent or Lent. I didn't know about those seasons of the church, and really only learned about them when I became a Methodist as a young adult.

    Sorry for the tangent, dear Purg Hosts!!
  • Re Rev. Wright (Obama's former pastor):

    IIRC, the big brouhaha was about him saying "God DAMN the United States" with much angry fervor.

    I know it surprised/shocked me. I know of people saying the US may/will be damned, but not actually asking God to do it.

    Anyway, O had to publicly distance himself from RW. (I think O was running for prez at the time.)
  • I was going to wistfully reminisce about scandals like these, but then I realised that this sort of stuff is just about the only sort of scandal the Republicans ever come up with.
  • In other news, Michael Cohen, while praised by the Special Investigator for cooperating with that office, is having the prosecution office from the Southern District of NY recommending a severe sentence for not cooperating with that office. The court papers show that Cohen and Individual 1--who ran a successful campaign for the US presidency--did conspire with Russia into 2016. The reason why the Southern District is not happy with him is because Cohen is not forthcoming in other criminal activities>

    BTW, look for Kelly to be out as chief of staff any day now. It is said he and Trump are not even speaking.

    Flynn looks like he is skating.

    And Tillerson has now broken his silence about Trump, reporting Trump would tell Tillerson about something Trump wanted to do and how to do it, but Tillerson would have to tell the Orange guy what he wanted to do was against the law.

    All the Democrats now have to do is convince 20 Republicans in the Senate it would be in their best interest to find for the House if the house votes for impeachment.

    And the beat goes on.
  • Maybe the Dems need to convince Republican senators, but that would require a huge and unexpected finding from Mueller, and probably put Trump in the position of being a sainted martyr to his lunatic followers. I say beat him fair and square in 2020.
  • I would have thought that the effort required for the Democrats to get an impeachment and the bitterness that that would result in would not help them at all in the longer term. I don't know how long an impeachment takes to secure but would it just be better for them to wait it out until 2020? A political party would prefer to play the long game even if individuals within the party only look as far as the next election.

    Also, would Trump be easier to beat than someone else? Or did they think that last time around?
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    I see that Joe Biden has hinted at announcing. He would be a shoo-in, I should think.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    In other news, Michael Cohen, while praised by the Special Investigator for cooperating with that office, is having the prosecution office from the Southern District of NY recommending a severe sentence for not cooperating with that office.

    <snip>

    Flynn looks like he is skating.

    From the SDNY's sentencing memorandum [PDF].
    To be clear: Cohen does not have a cooperation agreement and is not receiving a Section 5K1.1 letter either from this Office or the SCO, and therefore is not properly described as a “cooperating witness,” as that term is commonly used in this District.

    In other words, the reason Flynn skated and Cohen doesn't is similar to the reason G. Gordon Liddy did more time for the Watergate burglary than anyone higher up the chain.
    The Rogue wrote: »
    I would have thought that the effort required for the Democrats to get an impeachment and the bitterness that that would result in would not help them at all in the longer term.

    I think the long term consequences of this kind of thinking are what led to current Republican lawlessness. Nixon skated on Watergate, so Reagan and his cronies felt confident to subvert the Constitution in Iran-Contra. Not just Reagan but all of his lieutenants skated on Iran-Contra, which is why George W. Bush felt he'd never be held accountable for stealing an election and lying the nation into a pointless and counterproductive war. No one was even charged for either of those things. I'd make the counter argument: that turning a blind eye to presidents who commit felonies will, in the long run, just lead to more presidents who commit felonies.
    I see that Joe Biden has hinted at announcing. He would be a shoo-in, I should think.

    Joe Biden has already had two bites at the presidential apple, both of which were spectacular failures garnering a combined total of zero delegates. I'm not convinced that 2020 Biden is going to be a better campaigner than 1988 Biden or 2008 primary Biden. There's also the age factor. Ronald Reagan was the oldest president in American history. (If Trump wins a second term he'll beat Reagan's record on August 15, 2024.) On Inauguration Day 2021 Joe Biden will be older than Ronald Reagan was when he left office. That seems like a huge liability in a candidate.

    Then there's the problem that the most memorable moment of Biden's Senate career was his handling of the Clarence Thomas hearings. I'm not sure how that will play in a MeToo, post-Kavanaugh hearings electorate. So while I personally like Amtrak Joe, I don't think he'd be "a shoo-in", either in the primary or the general election.
  • I do think that American democracy needs the 'purifying' or Trump facing justice for his numerous crimes.

    Convential wisdom has always said that impeachment really hurts the party involved - i.e. it would be bad for the GOP if Trump was impeached. I don't think anyone really knows if that's true or not but I do think as it becomes increasing clear that DJT is guilty of various things, he needs to be held to account - for the sake of the Republic.

    AFZ
  • True, maybe we should just wait it out until 2020 and vote the crime syndicate boss out, but these are very serious claims that have an impact on our current policies. The man is unhinged. The nuclear football follows him where ever he goes. Even his own hacks have told him the things he wants to do and the way he wants to do them are illegal.

    Someone pointed out that if the offenses are serious enough even Republican Senators who are bound to defend the constitution from all enemies within or without will have to stand up against the boss. After all, even their necks are on the line, with 21 Republican Senators being up for election in 2020--and that's not to mention those who may be replaced because of resignations, or death, etc. But, now I am venturing into the other thread I just started.

    These next two years will be very interesting.
  • PigwidgeonPigwidgeon Shipmate
    edited December 2018
    It was three Republicans -- one Senator (from what is now my state of Arizona) and two Representatives (one from Arizona) -- who convinced Nixon that impeachment was a certain thing and that he needed to resign.


  • Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    It was three Republicans -- one Senator (from what is now my state of Arizona) and two Representatives (one from Arizona) -- who convinced Nixon that impeachment was a certain thing and that he needed to resign.

    Back when Republicans -- or at least some of them -- had both a spine and a conscience.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    It was three Republicans -- one Senator (from what is now my state of Arizona) and two Representatives (one from Arizona) -- who convinced Nixon that impeachment was a certain thing and that he needed to resign.

    Back when Republicans -- or at least some of them -- had both a spine and a conscience.

    That's the way the story is often pitched, but closer examination shows they were mostly pleading with Nixon because they didn't want to have to cast those votes. Remember that up until the day he resigned Nixon still had the support of a majority of Republicans, both in Congress and in the general population.
  • This, from the Daily Beast makes interesting reading:
    In the face of what Mueller has revealed, there is little question where this is going. Mueller may still be only showing us part of his hand, but it’s a damn good hand. He has signalled to us he’s found collusion. He has shown us that the president is compromised.

    I am conscious of my own cognitive bias here but this feels like good analysis to me. Moreover as many have pointed out; there has been a ramping-up of Tweets by Trump in recent days, that fixation does suggest genuine fear on the part of the President which may well reflect guilt.

    Interesting times, indeed.

    AFZ
  • Chief of Staff Kelly is out by the end of the year, the WaPo and other news outlets say.
  • Is impeachment the only tool for Trump facing justice? One of my fantasies involves him getting something like 30% of the vote in 2020, and then being convicted along with the Kushners and his two sons and their wives for a cornucopia of offenses committed before, during and after his 2016 campaign. Tiffany, the only blood Trump left to run the empire, manages to steal everything for herself. She becomes a hippy, setting herself up with her same-sex partner in a shack somewhere in Washington state and donates the proceeds of the ill-gotten pile to PETA.

    Meanwhile, Trump becomes the gimp of a Latino strongman whose parents were deported and learns to obey every instruction without question. He eventually dies slowly and painfully from injuries sustained pleasing his master. The nation is so appalled by the man that his death only becomes known via an obscure site on the dark web. There is no funeral. His flaccid body is burned, and his ashes dumped by one of the prison workers in a forgettable corner of the yard. Word gets around, and for a few years the spot becomes the preferred spot for prisoners to urinate. Eventually, people forget why.

    Melania returns to Slovenia with Barron and her parents, and ends up marrying a guy who sells suits and dabbles in property development. The marriage is a happy one. Barron loves his step-father, and eventually takes on his surname. None of them set foot inside the United States again.
  • There was also something about a woman who used to be a host on Fox News possibly being nominated as UN ambassador. AIUI, she was on T's favorite Fox show.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    There was also something about a woman who used to be a host on Fox News possibly being nominated as UN ambassador. AIUI, she was on T's favorite Fox show.

    Yes. She has been quoted as saying that D-Day was a good example of our cooperating with the German government. Seriously.
  • Good grief. I hope she doesn't think we're going to cooperate with Mexico that way...
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