Fucking Guns

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  • Twilight wrote: »
    IQ scores and locker numbers being sequenced quite differently. Quite a few students must have been sharing the same locker.

    I think you missed the sense of Ohher's story. The teacher had inherited a list of student locker numbers, but had interpreted it as a list of IQ scores.

    You still need a certain amount of luck for this story to work - many of the school's locker numbers wouldn't have been viable IQ scores - but it's not impossible.

    Snopes called it false, albeit an extrapolation from research that found bias in teachers assessments of students work based on proported IQ scores. Just didn't have the same "gotcha" finale

  • Twilight wrote: »

    Why do the same liberals who decry the rash actions of the police in Sacramento, have so much sympathy for the policeman in Florida. What happened to, "You don't know what you might do in that situation?" I think the big difference is that Trump called the Florida policeman a coward so he immediately became a darling of the liberals. Do you always check the party line before making your daily decisions? I think you do.

    The consistent thread between the two is police training/expectations in dangerous situations

    The fact of the matter is, there are no clear protocols for responding to an active shooter in a large public area like a school, much less one with an assault weapon. (Yes I know gun nuts will say AR15s aren't assault weapons. Riiiight). The fact that some police officers in Parkland were disciplined for going in without waiting for back up even as Peterson was shamed into quitting for taking the reverse action is clear evidence there is no protocol. Perhaps because there isn't one to adopt-- there's simply not a good way for a lone "good guy with a gun" to take down a determined killer with an AR15

    And the shootings of unarmed citizens-- white, black, and particularly of the mentally ill-- are almost always related to a similar lack of effective training and protocols. The difference is in this care there are protocols that could be taught and instituted

  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    Well there's been another shooting of an unarmed black man, this time in New York City. https://huffingtonpost.com/entry/new-york-police-fatally-shoot-black-man_us_5ac55c2ee4b09ef3b2434e86


    And just to add fodder to your discussions here, it seems he was mentally ill as well.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    So what's to be done with crazy people who go about pointing gun-shaped objects at cops?
  • Curiosity killedCuriosity killed Shipmate
    edited April 2018
    Mental health issues are challenging to deal with - so say the (unarmed) police and paramedics in the UK I've been discussing this with recently. One police officer commented that the people with mental health issues are unpredictable and difficult to read.
  • So what's to be done with crazy people who go about pointing gun-shaped objects at cops?

    They manage to bring them in alive time after time, if they're white
  • TwilightTwilight Shipmate
    edited April 2018
    So what's to be done with crazy people who go about pointing gun-shaped objects at cops?

    We need to make it easier for mentally ill people to get treatment, in some cases, even long term involuntary commitment to psychiatric hospitals, rather than let them deteriorate on the street to the point where police encounter them in the midst of psychotic episodes.

    Even though the mentally ill are 16 times more likely to be shot by police than other people, I don't blame the police, because, in that moment, as Curiosity Killed just said, they are encountering unpredictable, possibly violent, people.

    People with brain diseases need hospital care until stabilized, just like people with heart or lung diseases. We have failed them.
    Treatment Advocacy





  • Amen to that.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    So what's to be done with crazy people who go about pointing gun-shaped objects at cops?

    They manage to bring them in alive time after time, if they're white
    what do you do if the mentally ill person is brown? Shoot the nearest black man
  • So what's to be done with crazy people who go about pointing gun-shaped objects at cops?

    And with kids who do it? And adults who give them toy guns?
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Hell Host
    So you're allowed real guns, but can't be trusted with toy ones...
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    I had a toy gun as a kid. Not sure if I'm an exception but that pistol never made me want a real one. Don't even want to touch one.

    Has there been research into toy gun ownership and actions with real weapons in later life?
  • I played with squirt guns, as a kid. Given that cops and others can think they're the real deal, I would only let a kid play with one of the ones that's a different shape--spouting whale, etc. But I'd think twice. Cops still might interpret the size and motions as a real gun.
    (eek)
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    Oh, sorry; I misunderstood completely. That is a valid point.

    Rather frightening that toys look so realistic / can be mistaken, but best be safe.

    Thanks.
  • Climacus--

    That's ok. I don't know the answer to your correlation question, but would be interesting to find out. TV probably has a huge effect, too.

    --Periodically, there are news stories about cops killing kids who turned out to only have toy weapons. 1 or 2 in the last couple of years. I think one was a toy assault weapon. IIRC, someone had tipped off the police about a kid with a gun. I think, on that occasion, the cops didn't take/get time to talk to the kid.

    --And I'm one of those horrid people who thinks that *sometimes* violent video games can have negative, long-term effects on *some* people.

    I suspect amount of time played is a strong factor. Back in the day, when dinosaurs hung out in smokey back-alley arcades, players played until they'd run out of quarters, tokens, or credits--then left. With video games for home use, a lone player can hide in a dark closet and play 24/7.

    For some people, that's not healthy. The type of game probably makes a difference: Pac-Man probably has an effect very different from Grand Theft Auto,

    I played arcade games, back in the day, and they had various degrees of violence. But I haven't played violent games in decades. I have various puzzle and brain-stretching games on my computer, and sometimes play similar ones online.
  • There have been stories in the press here (UK) over the last few days linking the increasing gang violence to social media. There is a concern about increased violence with 50 killed in London so far this year (which I know doesn't compare to the States). Most of that list were stabbed, but 7 of the 50 were shot.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Given that cops and others can think they're the real deal, I would only let a kid play with one of the ones that's a different shape--spouting whale, etc. But I'd think twice. Cops still might interpret the size and motions as a real gun.
    Yeah. Gun manufacturers are so clever nowadays at disguising them as cell phones or lengths of pipe.
  • TwilightTwilight Shipmate
    It was reported as a gun, he was running through the streets pointing it at people and they all cowered in fear, thinking it was a gun, but I guess we expect the police to do the "wait until bullets go through someone test," just to make sure. https://blacknewszone.com/2018/04/04/nypd-officers-kill-mentally-ill-man-holding-pipe-they-thought-was-gun/
  • Our police live in a state of constant fear of black men. They are allowed to kill if they fear for their lives.
    .
    Those are the premises. Conclusion is left for the reader. Something needs to change.
  • Whilst walking through lounging area at a friend’s home, I noticed him, out of the corner of my eye, sitting in a chair even though I knew him to be in the back garden.
    It was a small pillow of a similar hue to the shirt he was wearing.
    We do not just see what is there, we see what we expect.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    And sadly, given the sheer number of guns readily accessible in the US landscape, cops AND civilians can reasonably -- very reasonably -- expect to see a gun.
  • Ohher wrote: »
    And sadly, given the sheer number of guns readily accessible in the US landscape, cops AND civilians can reasonably -- very reasonably -- expect to see a gun.
    Most black Americans probably are packing. To protect the drugs they all sell and to shoot each other, because that is what they all do.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    This is not the fuck racism thread; this is the fuck guns thread. Regardless of how hopeless we might feel about the struggle with institutional racism, only the most shitty of us would disagree with the notion that removing the high potential for firearms would help cut down the police's fear in many situations. That reduction in fear would benefit everyone, but especially those who are most vulnerable to what disproportionate fears they have.

    So, while we might quibble about the mechanisms of institutional racism, we're all really strenuously agreeing with each other about the value of effective gun control.
  • I get that. But they are not completely separate issues. Fear of others is part of the reason many American gun owners want their guns. Others being, sometimes, a code for colour.
  • Of course fear is a factor in why many people choose to buy a gun. And, like most fears is largely irrational, as is the response to that fear.

    The vast majority of gun owners are never going to face a situation where their life, the life of someone else, or their property are at risk. And, in virtually no case would having access to a gun reduce the danger or consequences.

    If you are afraid the best response is to reduce the number of weapons in the vicinity, starting with your own.
  • An idle question: Is feeling like you are in control of your environment also a factor? i.e. I have a gun handy, so no bastard is ever going to be able to control me. I'm in charge.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    Follow-up idle question: Would it therefore work to give the people seeking this kind of sensation of control placebo guns? Honestly, placebo guns would probably be statistically about as effective as real guns at making a person able to "stop a bad guy with a gun". Obvious side-effects include being mistaken as a bad guy with a gun by the police.
  • The side-effect RooK mentions is obviously less important if you're white. Shooting at cops isn't necessarily lethal if you're white. Having a placebo gun shaped like a cell phone can be, if you're black.
  • so, Mousethief I always thought your name was about stealing stuff from mice. With your new avatar, I now see that it is about stealing the mice themselves. My question is this: Who owns the mice?

    Yeah actual placebo guns are dangerous things. I think a pill might be a better idea.
  • RooK wrote: »
    Follow-up idle question: Would it therefore work to give the people seeking this kind of sensation of control placebo guns? Honestly, placebo guns would probably be statistically about as effective as real guns at making a person able to "stop a bad guy with a gun". Obvious side-effects include being mistaken as a bad guy with a gun by the police.

    The danger would be the would-be vigilante confronting an armed intruder with the placebo, and being shot or killed by the intruder. Without the placebo the homeowner would most likely flee or hide.

    Simon Toad's suggestion of a pill-- or a bit of weed to mellow these angry b******** down might do the trick.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Simon Toad's suggestion of a pill-- or a bit of weed to mellow these angry b******** down might do the trick.
    Arsenic trioxide would do the trick. I can see a Heaven thread spawned to suggest a cute commercial name for the substance. How about Sickox for starts?
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    Given that cops and others can think they're the real deal, I would only let a kid play with one of the ones that's a different shape--spouting whale, etc. But I'd think twice. Cops still might interpret the size and motions as a real gun.
    Yeah. Gun manufacturers are so clever nowadays at disguising them as cell phones or lengths of pipe.

    I suspect they process gun-handling-like movements subconsciously. E.g., a shift of the wrist, a moving thumb, something in the hand could indicate a real gun, a squirt gun, a cell phone, a snack. They want to be safe, and subconsciously interpret the movement as the most dangerous possibility.

    Not excusing the behavior. But there's an assessment that cops sometimes get into a mode that they can't get out of, per various news stories over the years. E.g., maybe 25 years ago or so, some law enforcement officers (LEOs) of some kind gave chase to a van of (suspected?) illegal immigrants. They stopped the van, and IIRC got people out and on the ground, and they still beat them up. There was a discussion about the "can't stop" (my term) phenomenon. Similar with high-speed chases. IIRC, the theory is something like their adrenaline gets going, and they really can't stop. I guess that other things feed into that: group dynamics, maybe some LEO mythology, personal chemistry/wiring, etc.

    I don't mean this as an insult; but it sounds like when a dog gets extremely focused on something, and just can't pull out of it.

    If there's a way to interrupt that, maybe we can make some progress.
  • If you can't stop when your adrenaline gets going, you are unsuited to the job of police officer. Get a job where your adrenaline stays low, and let somebody with self-control do the job that requires it.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    edited April 2018
    Golden Key said -


    out and on the ground, and they still beat them up. There was a discussion about the "can't stop" (my term) phenomenon. Similar with high-speed chases. IIRC, the theory is something like their adrenaline gets going, and they really can't stop. I guess that other things feed into that: group dynamics, maybe some LEO mythology, personal chemistry/wiring, etc.

    I don't mean this as an insult; but it sounds like when a dog gets extremely focused on something, and just can't pull out of it.


    I don’t know about US police, but I do know about dogs.

    The key is training. Yes, an untrained dog would get fixed into a chase behaviour, unable to snap out of it, once triggered. But a well trained dog will snap out of it on cue, whatever the circumstances.

    I doubt if many US cops are as well trained as my dogs ‘tho. :unamused:
  • Boogie--

    Need a job? ;)
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Boogie--

    Need a job? ;)

    :tongue:

    (Where is the laughing emoji when it’s needed?)

  • From some things I've heard, US cops are less well trained (in handling firearms) than kids who go paint-balling every weekend, or gun fetishests who hang out on a firing range for an hour a day. I've no idea whether those communities of people are more, or less, likely to be an active shooter ... but, you wonder how cops feel facing an active shooter who may have far more experience using their gun than the cops who need to go in and confront him.
  • Hmmm...off the top of my head, the active shooters I can think of who hung out at gun club ranges are the Newtown shooter* and the YouTube shooter.**

    *His mom thought it would be good for him, good time together with him.

    **She went to a practice range that morning. Don't know if she regularly went to a range.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Police training will depend on the jurisdiction. My state's police training academy certainly does SOME training; periodically, we hear the shots going off in volleys at their indoor firing range. On the other hand, my state has among the least restrictive gun laws in the US. Basically, anyone with the funds can buy a firearm. No license, no permit, no training required. You may by law haul this weapon around with you, either openly or concealed, pretty much wherever you go (except in courthouses), including in the legislative chambers of the state. However, statistically speaking, my state is one with very low rates of crime, including those involving firearms, in the US. Defenders of our (IMO) recklessly lax gun laws are forever pointing this out.

    In this state of affairs, we're sending police out to investigate vandalism, break-ins, and domestic violence calls where they can have NO IDEA (unless a gun has been reported -- accurately or not) whether those involved are actually carrying firepower. I suspect this uncertainty about the likelihood of facing shooters adds significantly to the odds of police unloosing fire at suspects. It's a sort of "better safe than sorry" scenario, to assume that a gun WILL be present in the situation.

    Does a suspect's skin color play into this at all? In a state where the vast majority (96%) of the population is white, almost certainly. I've had cops-in-training in my classes; some have had their very first encounters with people of color in my classroom (and who know no other terminology for same other than the n-word). But even before that comes into play must be the knowledge that every call you go on as a cop contains the not-unreasonable possibility that you'll be shot at.
  • TwilightTwilight Shipmate
    Ohher wrote: »
    Does a suspect's skin color play into this at all? In a state where the vast majority (96%) of the population is white, almost certainly. I've had cops-in-training in my classes; some have had their very first encounters with people of color in my classroom (and who know no other terminology for same other than the n-word).

    What state is this, exactly? Even in West Virginia in the 1950's we had TV, radio and newspapers, and the word used in all three was "colored," until "African American," or black took over.

    I looked back at your four paragraph story about the teacher you encountered who confused locker numbers with IQ's, and even after a couple of us have cast some major doubt on that old chestnut being true, now here are these young college students who have never heard any terminology except the n-word. I'm beginning to think you use alternative facts for dramatic effect.

  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    I had been assuming that travel via the back of a wardrobe had been required for firsthand verification of Ohher's stories. Perhaps I am naïve.
  • RuthRuth Admin Emeritus
    Only if you need a wardrobe to travel to Maine, which is something like 95-96% white. I'd guess Vermont and New Hampshire are close to that, too.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    edited April 2018
    But do they also only refer to black people as niggers there? In my painfully limited experience, the epithet is only common in places where black people are a significant proportion of the population.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    An idle question: Is feeling like you are in control of your environment also a factor? i.e. I have a gun handy, so no bastard is ever going to be able to control me. I'm in charge.

    Yes, I think that's the bulk of it. There are facets, and layers, and roots, and octopus arms, but that's basically it.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited April 2018
    Why don't they just get a dog or two? No self-respecting random home-invader is going to choose the home with two crazily barking dogs slavering all over the window, when they can choose the nice quiet house next door.

    Plus, I thought I got my balls busted by people last year for suggesting something like that cops in the US would be apprehensive approaching a car because of the possibility that the driver would have a gun. Maybe I was wrong, and people were upset about something else, or I used words or a tone that people didn't like. Who knows, but I'm slightly pissed off about it. Pissed off enough to mention it despite the blow-back I anticipate...
  • Though this thread (and it'd predecessor) has been mostly fueled by examples of mass shootings, that doesn't exhaust the problems created by the prevalence of guns. We have also in the past ranted about how guns make suicide so much easier.

    But, the prevalence of gun also creates a dynamic that can only make policing much harder. When even minor incidents - traffic infringements or vandalism, for example - could easily result in police approaching someone who is armed that must, surely, create additional tension in such instances. And, that tension could, I would say almost certainly does, result in reactions that leaves someone dead or injured.
  • Simon Toad--

    --Well, they might not like dogs, not want to live with them, or not want to deal with noise themselves. They might be allergic to dogs. They might live in a rental that doesn't allow pets. Neighbors might not like the noise. And a gun is probably easier to carry around for safety than a couple of dogs.

    --I don't remember anything like what you describe, FWIW.
  • I'd find the post GK, but I'm not sure its worth it. Then again, I'm bending over anyway....
  • I took the children to the science museum in London last week. Down in the basement is one of the older exhibits untouched by the modernisation over the last 20 years (still has all those things to turn and push to see how things work, which the children loved but have gone from the refurbished halls which just have objects to look at and read about ... which is a separate rant) within which was a "home security" room complete with a machine to automatically call the police (with the message played recorded on a vinyl disc, I said it was an old exhibit) and an alarm in the form of ceramic dogs that barked.

    It doesn't need to be a real dog.
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