@NOprophet_NØprofit I think virtually everybody in the UK pronounces 'sowth' like a pig with a 'th'. How else can one pronounce it?
Sarf? As in Sarf Lunnon?
In Ireland, the further south, the more it's 'sou'dt' (the opposite of 'nor'dth').
Sowth with a drawn out 'ow' sound is distinctive. For me and many here the 'ow' is a short 'u'.
Torque and talk are completely different here. There's no R sound in talk.
I see people periodically representing a 'th' with an 'f'. Never hear that here. If a French accent (Canadian French) perhaps closer to a 'd'. Heard also by me travelling in some parts of Newfoundland.
@NOprophet_NØprofit I think virtually everybody in the UK pronounces 'sowth' like a pig with a 'th'. How else can one pronounce it?
Sarf? As in Sarf Lunnon?
In Ireland, the further south, the more it's 'sou'dt' (the opposite of 'nor'dth').
Sowth with a drawn out 'ow' sound is distinctive. For me and many here the 'ow' is a short 'u'.
Torque and talk are completely different here. There's no R sound in talk.
I see people periodically representing a 'th' with an 'f'. Never hear that here. If a French accent (Canadian French) perhaps closer to a 'd'. Heard also by me travelling in some parts of Newfoundland.
It's quite common here, especially in the SE. It proved fatal for Hanratty.
There is an English thing of putting an 'r' in weird places. I used to think one guy I knew (Herefordshire) was pulling my leg every time he talked about Bark, when he meant Bach. But I've heard quite a few English people refer to Bach as Bark. In my accent it would be 'Bah-ch'.
I've also noticed in a lot of TV dramas where the actors have been coached to countrify their accents by putting weird rs in. 'Just mowin' the lorn, my lady' - instead of lawn. 'Ar'ternoon, gentlemen' instead of 'afternoon'.
The reason this gets buggered up in English is because "you" is used as both subject and object. After the word "you", it can be hard to process whether to follow it with "I" or "me".
The same problem doesn't tend to arise with other persons. We instinctively know the difference between "he" and "him", or "she" and "her". But we've pressed the word "you" into so many kinds of service that it causes confusion.
The reason this gets buggered up in English is because "you" is used as both subject and object. After the word "you", it can be hard to process whether to follow it with "I" or "me".
The same problem doesn't tend to arise with other persons. We instinctively know the difference between "he" and "him", or "she" and "her". But we've pressed the word "you" into so many kinds of service that it causes confusion.
I think it's fair to say that a representative model of English usage would suggest that the subject/object model for me/I selection is inadequate. And it goes beyond the first person. Around here, at any rate, "Me and him went to the park today" would be a perfectly naturally produced form, at least in more informal registers.
There is an English thing of putting an 'r' in weird places. I used to think one guy I knew (Herefordshire) was pulling my leg every time he talked about Bark, when he meant Bach. But I've heard quite a few English people refer to Bach as Bark. In my accent it would be 'Bah-ch'.
I've also noticed in a lot of TV dramas where the actors have been coached to countrify their accents by putting weird rs in. 'Just mowin' the lorn, my lady' - instead of lawn. 'Ar'ternoon, gentlemen' instead of 'afternoon'.
Intrusive R occurs because r after a vowel isn't pronounced in most UK accents, so Lorne and Lawn sound the same.
The reason this gets buggered up in English is because "you" is used as both subject and object. After the word "you", it can be hard to process whether to follow it with "I" or "me".
The same problem doesn't tend to arise with other persons. We instinctively know the difference between "he" and "him", or "she" and "her". But we've pressed the word "you" into so many kinds of service that it causes confusion.
I think it's fair to say that a representative model of English usage would suggest that the subject/object model for me/I selection is inadequate. And it goes beyond the first person. Around here, at any rate, "Me and him went to the park today" would be a perfectly naturally produced form, at least in more informal registers.
Well I'm sure all sorts of things go on in informal registers in different parts of the world (I don't think that would tend to happen here). But I would still argue that "I/me" confusion is a lot more common.
Including hyper-correction, where people use "I" because they think it sounds more proper or formal in contexts where, grammatically, "me" would actually be correct. Such as saying "between you and I".
The reason this gets buggered up in English is because "you" is used as both subject and object. After the word "you", it can be hard to process whether to follow it with "I" or "me".
The same problem doesn't tend to arise with other persons. We instinctively know the difference between "he" and "him", or "she" and "her". But we've pressed the word "you" into so many kinds of service that it causes confusion.
I think it's fair to say that a representative model of English usage would suggest that the subject/object model for me/I selection is inadequate. And it goes beyond the first person. Around here, at any rate, "Me and him went to the park today" would be a perfectly naturally produced form, at least in more informal registers.
Well I'm sure all sorts of things go on in informal registers in different parts of the world (I don't think that would tend to happen here). But I would still argue that "I/me" confusion is a lot more common.
Including hyper-correction, where people use "I" because they think it sounds more proper or formal in contexts where, grammatically, "me" would actually be correct. Such as saying "between you and I".
Yes, because the subject/object selection criterion is artificial for most speakers.
I've also noticed that some people (apparently trying to sound more "proper" and failing) use "myself" instead of "I" or "me" -- or perhaps they do it when they don't know which is correct.
A woman on my NextDoor group is asking people to sign her petition to be a candidate for the School Board. Ms. Education posted:
Myself and other Pro Public School Candidates have a table set up for you to come and sign.
The "I and X" construction is problematic in English. People want to avoid "me and Jim", and "I and Jim", subject position. One compromise is "Jim and I". I say "me and Jim", but this is in speech. Myself sounds Irish to me.
The confusion between "f" and "th" (and, probably, "v" and the other sort of "th") is very old. There is a village between Deal and Dover called Finglesham. It was written down, by Norman scribes, with an initial "f", as that was what they heard the locals say. However, earlier documents, written down by English scribes, who knew what the name meant, had an initial "th", because it meant "thengel's ham" or the home of a nobleman. Presumably the ceorls around his hall had a different form of English from his. (He had some lovely grave goods.)
I can normally tell by context which one people mean, as they tend to give examples where you can work it out.
The problem, of course, is that this depends on us all pronouncing the examples the same way. Ha. Haha. Hahaha.
Heh, that can be an issue, but the differences between the two versions of a long vowel tend to be such that it's usually clear - to me, at least. When someone talks about a long a, as in hate, I don't think they might possibly be pronouncing it with an ah sound. (Which in RP would be heart. A big difference between 'I hate you' and 'I heart you'!) Or if someone talks about the long i in fight, I don't wonder if they might be pronouncing it 'feet'. There are enough similarities in the various versions of English that variatioms don't tend to stretch this far. From what I've observed so far, the issue is more simply when people want to say 'Oh, but that's not a long i - you've got it all wrong!' rather than genuine misunderstanding.
I can normally tell by context which one people mean, as they tend to give examples where you can work it out.
The problem, of course, is that this depends on us all pronouncing the examples the same way. Ha. Haha. Hahaha.
Heh, that can be an issue, but the differences between the two versions of a long vowel tend to be such that it's usually clear - to me, at least. When someone talks about a long a, as in hate, I don't think they might possibly be pronouncing it with an ah sound. (Which in RP would be heart. A big difference between 'I hate you' and 'I heart you'!) Or if someone talks about the long i in fight, I don't wonder if they might be pronouncing it 'feet'. There are enough similarities in the various versions of English that variatioms don't tend to stretch this far. From what I've observed so far, the issue is more simply when people want to say 'Oh, but that's not a long i - you've got it all wrong!' rather than genuine misunderstanding.
You pick easy ones. What if someone says "a like in class"? Even in North America Canadians tend to have more ash sounds than USians -- I know of one native Torontan who says Nazi with an ash, whereas in these parts we say it with an ah. Similar for the car make Mazda. I say ah, he says æ.
Dog bites man. Man bites dog. English often can't be arsed with markers of subjects and objects.
Quite. The case system with pronouns started breaking down in OE times and it seems that case and form selection are no longer directly correlated.
Which is why we rely on word order and particles. "Give me the ball" is 100% clear. "Give the ball to me" is so clear one goes, "Um, no. I'm not giving you to the ball."
The confusion between "f" and "th" (and, probably, "v" and the other sort of "th") is very old. There is a village between Deal and Dover called Finglesham. It was written down, by Norman scribes, with an initial "f", as that was what they heard the locals say. However, earlier documents, written down by English scribes, who knew what the name meant, had an initial "th", because it meant "thengel's ham" or the home of a nobleman. Presumably the ceorls around his hall had a different form of English from his. (He had some lovely grave goods.)
The f/v/th/dh conflation made its way into Russian, since Russian has no sound corresponding to our th/dh sounds. Things with a theta in Greek get translated with an F. So you get Fyodor for Theodore, Feofan for Theophan, Foma for Thomas, Timofei for Timothy.
The "I and X" construction is problematic in English. People want to avoid "me and Jim", and "I and Jim", subject position. One compromise is "Jim and I". I say "me and Jim", but this is in speech. Myself sounds Irish to me.
I don't see the problem. "Jim and I" where you'd use "I" (subject); "Jim and me" where you'd use "me" (object). Easy rule to remember. Never understood why this is so hard.
Dog bites man. Man bites dog. English often can't be arsed with markers of subjects and objects.
Quite. The case system with pronouns started breaking down in OE times and it seems that case and form selection are no longer directly correlated.
Which is why we rely on word order and particles. "Give me the ball" is 100% clear. "Give the ball to me" is so clear one goes, "Um, no. I'm not giving you to the ball."
The confusion between "f" and "th" (and, probably, "v" and the other sort of "th") is very old. There is a village between Deal and Dover called Finglesham. It was written down, by Norman scribes, with an initial "f", as that was what they heard the locals say. However, earlier documents, written down by English scribes, who knew what the name meant, had an initial "th", because it meant "thengel's ham" or the home of a nobleman. Presumably the ceorls around his hall had a different form of English from his. (He had some lovely grave goods.)
The f/v/th/dh conflation made its way into Russian, since Russian has no sound corresponding to our th/dh sounds. Things with a theta in Greek get translated with an F. So you get Fyodor for Theodore, Feofan for Theophan, Foma for Thomas, Timofei for Timothy.
The "I and X" construction is problematic in English. People want to avoid "me and Jim", and "I and Jim", subject position. One compromise is "Jim and I". I say "me and Jim", but this is in speech. Myself sounds Irish to me.
I don't see the problem. "Jim and I" where you'd use "I" (subject); "Jim and me" where you'd use "me" (object). Easy rule to remember. Never understood why this is so hard.
Because it's not natural for many English speakers. They have to make a conscious effort to use a construction that feels unnatural as opposed to the one that feels natural.
Speaking your own native language shouldn't feel like trying to remember the formal grammar of one you've learnt. You're asking people to stop mid flow, re-cast the sentence in their mind to take Jim out, and then put the sentence back together. This isn't how language works.
I can normally tell by context which one people mean, as they tend to give examples where you can work it out.
The problem, of course, is that this depends on us all pronouncing the examples the same way. Ha. Haha. Hahaha.
Heh, that can be an issue, but the differences between the two versions of a long vowel tend to be such that it's usually clear - to me, at least. When someone talks about a long a, as in hate, I don't think they might possibly be pronouncing it with an ah sound. (Which in RP would be heart. A big difference between 'I hate you' and 'I heart you'!) Or if someone talks about the long i in fight, I don't wonder if they might be pronouncing it 'feet'. There are enough similarities in the various versions of English that variatioms don't tend to stretch this far. From what I've observed so far, the issue is more simply when people want to say 'Oh, but that's not a long i - you've got it all wrong!' rather than genuine misunderstanding.
You pick easy ones. What if someone says "a like in class"? Even in North America Canadians tend to have more ash sounds than USians -- I know of one native Torontan who says Nazi with an ash, whereas in these parts we say it with an ah. Similar for the car make Mazda. I say ah, he says æ.
I was specifically talking about long vowels - if you read the context of my whole post and the previous posts I was addressing, it was expressed that it might be confusing talking about long vowels, as the term has two different meanings. I was saying I personally can usually tell from context, plus the fact that most use the lay meaning. If someone said 'A long a as in class,' it would probably be KarlLB, as he is the one using the phonetic meaning. I am not aware of any accent which pronounces class to rhyme with grace, so I think it would be fair to assume the lay meaning of 'long a' was not being used!
What to do, then? Well, we could do IPA. Or we could give examples each time. Or we could just carry on ignoring one another and driving each other nuts, which is most probable.
Carry on.
Or we could just drink IPA and forget the whole thing.
I will take an Imperial Stout, thank you. IPAs are not real beers in my mind. Want to know why new brewers come out with IPA's first? They are still learning how to make beer.
Dog bites man. Man bites dog. English often can't be arsed with markers of subjects and objects.
Quite. The case system with pronouns started breaking down in OE times and it seems that case and form selection are no longer directly correlated.
Which is why we rely on word order and particles. "Give me the ball" is 100% clear. "Give the ball to me" is so clear one goes, "Um, no. I'm not giving you to the ball."
The confusion between "f" and "th" (and, probably, "v" and the other sort of "th") is very old. There is a village between Deal and Dover called Finglesham. It was written down, by Norman scribes, with an initial "f", as that was what they heard the locals say. However, earlier documents, written down by English scribes, who knew what the name meant, had an initial "th", because it meant "thengel's ham" or the home of a nobleman. Presumably the ceorls around his hall had a different form of English from his. (He had some lovely grave goods.)
The f/v/th/dh conflation made its way into Russian, since Russian has no sound corresponding to our th/dh sounds. Things with a theta in Greek get translated with an F. So you get Fyodor for Theodore, Feofan for Theophan, Foma for Thomas, Timofei for Timothy.
The "I and X" construction is problematic in English. People want to avoid "me and Jim", and "I and Jim", subject position. One compromise is "Jim and I". I say "me and Jim", but this is in speech. Myself sounds Irish to me.
I don't see the problem. "Jim and I" where you'd use "I" (subject); "Jim and me" where you'd use "me" (object). Easy rule to remember. Never understood why this is so hard.
Because it's not natural for many English speakers. They have to make a conscious effort to use a construction that feels unnatural as opposed to the one that feels natural.
Speaking your own native language shouldn't feel like trying to remember the formal grammar of one you've learnt. You're asking people to stop mid flow, re-cast the sentence in their mind to take Jim out, and then put the sentence back together. This isn't how language works.
'Jim and I' also sounds quite formal for many dialects and social groups in the UK. I wouldn't say it in casual, fun chat - the more usual dialect, with a sense of light-hearted casualness about it, is 'Me and Jim...' Similar to 'I was sat on the bus' rather than 'I was sitting.' It's a bit of a class thing - it's more lower classes who say these, and upper classes sometimes sneer, but they have their own dialectical oddities too, as do Americans, that aren't officially 'correct,' but are dialect, part of the group language and identity.
I can normally tell by context which one people mean, as they tend to give examples where you can work it out.
The problem, of course, is that this depends on us all pronouncing the examples the same way. Ha. Haha. Hahaha.
Heh, that can be an issue, but the differences between the two versions of a long vowel tend to be such that it's usually clear - to me, at least. When someone talks about a long a, as in hate, I don't think they might possibly be pronouncing it with an ah sound. (Which in RP would be heart. A big difference between 'I hate you' and 'I heart you'!) Or if someone talks about the long i in fight, I don't wonder if they might be pronouncing it 'feet'. There are enough similarities in the various versions of English that variatioms don't tend to stretch this far. From what I've observed so far, the issue is more simply when people want to say 'Oh, but that's not a long i - you've got it all wrong!' rather than genuine misunderstanding.
You pick easy ones. What if someone says "a like in class"? Even in North America Canadians tend to have more ash sounds than USians -- I know of one native Torontan who says Nazi with an ash, whereas in these parts we say it with an ah. Similar for the car make Mazda. I say ah, he says æ.
I was specifically talking about long vowels - if you read the context of my whole post and the previous posts I was addressing, it was expressed that it might be confusing talking about long vowels, as the term has two different meanings. I was saying I personally can usually tell from context, plus the fact that most use the lay meaning. If someone said 'A long a as in class,' it would probably be KarlLB, as he is the one using the phonetic meaning. I am not aware of any accent which pronounces class to rhyme with grace, so I think it would be fair to assume the lay meaning of 'long a' was not being used!
I pronounce class with a short vowel though, like in cat.
I can normally tell by context which one people mean, as they tend to give examples where you can work it out.
The problem, of course, is that this depends on us all pronouncing the examples the same way. Ha. Haha. Hahaha.
Heh, that can be an issue, but the differences between the two versions of a long vowel tend to be such that it's usually clear - to me, at least. When someone talks about a long a, as in hate, I don't think they might possibly be pronouncing it with an ah sound. (Which in RP would be heart. A big difference between 'I hate you' and 'I heart you'!) Or if someone talks about the long i in fight, I don't wonder if they might be pronouncing it 'feet'. There are enough similarities in the various versions of English that variatioms don't tend to stretch this far. From what I've observed so far, the issue is more simply when people want to say 'Oh, but that's not a long i - you've got it all wrong!' rather than genuine misunderstanding.
You pick easy ones. What if someone says "a like in class"? Even in North America Canadians tend to have more ash sounds than USians -- I know of one native Torontan who says Nazi with an ash, whereas in these parts we say it with an ah. Similar for the car make Mazda. I say ah, he says æ.
I was specifically talking about long vowels - if you read the context of my whole post and the previous posts I was addressing, it was expressed that it might be confusing talking about long vowels, as the term has two different meanings. I was saying I personally can usually tell from context, plus the fact that most use the lay meaning. If someone said 'A long a as in class,' it would probably be KarlLB, as he is the one using the phonetic meaning. I am not aware of any accent which pronounces class to rhyme with grace, so I think it would be fair to assume the lay meaning of 'long a' was not being used!
I pronounce class with a short vowel though, like in cat.
Ha, good point, so it's unlikely that anyone would talk about 'a long a as in class'!
To return to the point though, if someone talked about a long i as in feet, I would assume they were using the phonetic meaning (most probably KarlLB, as he's the only one using that meaning here, unless he has a different way of pronouncing feet). I would assume no one says feet as fight, and so the lay meaning isn't being used! Perhaps 'long a as in lager' would work for you, Karl?
The "I and X" construction is problematic in English. People want to avoid "me and Jim", and "I and Jim", subject position. One compromise is "Jim and I". I say "me and Jim", but this is in speech. Myself sounds Irish to me.
I don't see the problem. "Jim and I" where you'd use "I" (subject); "Jim and me" where you'd use "me" (object). Easy rule to remember. Never understood why this is so hard.
I suspect what's really going on for a lot of people is some trauma from being harshly corrected in grade school, and a resulting fear of getting it wrong--which leads them to over-correct, under-correct, and WTF-correct. Leave children alone and they echo their family and friends, which is usually right and when wrong, at least understandable.
What to do, then? Well, we could do IPA. Or we could give examples each time. Or we could just carry on ignoring one another and driving each other nuts, which is most probable.
Carry on.
Or we could just drink IPA and forget the whole thing.
I will take an Imperial Stout, thank you. IPAs are not real beers in my mind. Want to know why new brewers come out with IPA's first? They are still learning how to make beer.
There is an important distinction to be made here. North American IPA is a disgusting concoction that aspires to be fermented grapefruit juice and has no conceivable connection with beer as known to older civilizations. In fact, the curse of cheap citra hops is a greatly underestimated threat to North America, rather like donald trump was four years ago. A good traditional IPA is still a good beer.
Speaking your own native language shouldn't feel like trying to remember the formal grammar of one you've learnt. You're asking people to stop mid flow, re-cast the sentence in their mind to take Jim out, and then put the sentence back together. This isn't how language works.
I would never ask anybody to do any such thing. People can say whatever the hell they want. And others can think about their level of education and/or ignorance what they want. Free world.
I actually prefer a good English ale (preferably Hobgoblin, but it's gotten almost impossible to find around here) to an IPA. But I'd rather drink an IPA than fuss about the International Phonetic Alphabet.
I actually prefer a good English ale (preferably Hobgoblin, but it's gotten almost impossible to find around here) to an IPA. But I'd rather drink an IPA than fuss about the International Phonetic Alphabet.
Yes, I don't use them here, also because not everyone knows them, so it's kind of like using another language, not accessible to all. Though the OED uses it in its phonetic transcriptions, and Wikipedia has loads of info on it, with a separate page for each sound, if people are curious. It's easy to learn about, and useful if you are learning another language, or teaching English as another langauge.
Schwa makes me think of "b'schwa", which means whatever the person said is being summarily dismissed and disregarded. I have no idea of derivation. Is this used anywhere else?
Schwa makes me think of "b'schwa", which means whatever the person said is being summarily dismissed and disregarded. I have no idea of derivation. Is this used anywhere else?
Hm... I just googled b'schwa and can't find anything. Is it actually spelt like that? Or do you mean the dismissive vocal noise that has traditionally been represented in fiction as 'pshaw'? I remember that being used a lot in What Katy Did, which I loved reading as a kid.
Hm... I just googled b'schwa and can't find anything. Is it actually spelt like that? Or do you mean the dismissive vocal noise that has traditionally been represented in fiction as 'pshaw'? I remember that being used a lot in What Katy Did, which I loved reading as a kid.
It reminds me of "bushwah", which means nonsense, more or less.
Schwa makes me think of "b'schwa", which means whatever the person said is being summarily dismissed and disregarded. I have no idea of derivation. Is this used anywhere else?
Hm... I just googled b'schwa and can't find anything. Is it actually spelt like that? Or do you mean the dismissive vocal noise that has traditionally been represented in fiction as 'pshaw'? I remember that being used a lot in What Katy Did, which I loved reading as a kid.
Dog bites man. Man bites dog. English often can't be arsed with markers of subjects and objects.
Quite. The case system with pronouns started breaking down in OE times and it seems that case and form selection are no longer directly correlated.
Which is why we rely on word order and particles. "Give me the ball" is 100% clear. "Give the ball to me" is so clear one goes, "Um, no. I'm not giving you to the ball."
The confusion between "f" and "th" (and, probably, "v" and the other sort of "th") is very old. There is a village between Deal and Dover called Finglesham. It was written down, by Norman scribes, with an initial "f", as that was what they heard the locals say. However, earlier documents, written down by English scribes, who knew what the name meant, had an initial "th", because it meant "thengel's ham" or the home of a nobleman. Presumably the ceorls around his hall had a different form of English from his. (He had some lovely grave goods.)
The f/v/th/dh conflation made its way into Russian, since Russian has no sound corresponding to our th/dh sounds. Things with a theta in Greek get translated with an F. So you get Fyodor for Theodore, Feofan for Theophan, Foma for Thomas, Timofei for Timothy.
The "I and X" construction is problematic in English. People want to avoid "me and Jim", and "I and Jim", subject position. One compromise is "Jim and I". I say "me and Jim", but this is in speech. Myself sounds Irish to me.
I don't see the problem. "Jim and I" where you'd use "I" (subject); "Jim and me" where you'd use "me" (object). Easy rule to remember. Never understood why this is so hard.
Because it's not natural for many English speakers. They have to make a conscious effort to use a construction that feels unnatural as opposed to the one that feels natural.
Speaking your own native language shouldn't feel like trying to remember the formal grammar of one you've learnt. You're asking people to stop mid flow, re-cast the sentence in their mind to take Jim out, and then put the sentence back together. This isn't how language works.
'Jim and I' also sounds quite formal for many dialects and social groups in the UK. I wouldn't say it in casual, fun chat - the more usual dialect, with a sense of light-hearted casualness about it, is 'Me and Jim...' Similar to 'I was sat on the bus' rather than 'I was sitting.' It's a bit of a class thing - it's more lower classes who say these, and upper classes sometimes sneer, but they have their own dialectical oddities too, as do Americans, that aren't officially 'correct,' but are dialect, part of the group language and identity.
The funny thing is, all these issues with when to use "I" and "me" are pretty similar to what happened with the word "you", which became the default word in the 2nd person no matter what the situation - plural, singular, subject, object, polite, informal.
People dispensed with "thou" and started using "you" all the time. No more rules to remember about which was appropriate. Maybe we'll end up, after another century or two, with a similar situation where either "me" or "I' takes over.
Singular "they" might also get into a stronger position one day. People use it all the time in speech but then resist it in writing.
The one that really annoys me is the incorrect use of "myself" - some time ago I was in the bank talking to a member of staff and at the end of the conversation she said "any problems, just give myself a call".
Comments
Sowth with a drawn out 'ow' sound is distinctive. For me and many here the 'ow' is a short 'u'.
Torque and talk are completely different here. There's no R sound in talk.
I see people periodically representing a 'th' with an 'f'. Never hear that here. If a French accent (Canadian French) perhaps closer to a 'd'. Heard also by me travelling in some parts of Newfoundland.
Ideally IPA would (a) be easy to type and (b) be more widely understood.
It's quite common here, especially in the SE. It proved fatal for Hanratty.
a plan ? or a plahn ? or a plarn ?
I've also noticed in a lot of TV dramas where the actors have been coached to countrify their accents by putting weird rs in. 'Just mowin' the lorn, my lady' - instead of lawn. 'Ar'ternoon, gentlemen' instead of 'afternoon'.
The reason this gets buggered up in English is because "you" is used as both subject and object. After the word "you", it can be hard to process whether to follow it with "I" or "me".
The same problem doesn't tend to arise with other persons. We instinctively know the difference between "he" and "him", or "she" and "her". But we've pressed the word "you" into so many kinds of service that it causes confusion.
I think it's fair to say that a representative model of English usage would suggest that the subject/object model for me/I selection is inadequate. And it goes beyond the first person. Around here, at any rate, "Me and him went to the park today" would be a perfectly naturally produced form, at least in more informal registers.
Intrusive R occurs because r after a vowel isn't pronounced in most UK accents, so Lorne and Lawn sound the same.
Well I'm sure all sorts of things go on in informal registers in different parts of the world (I don't think that would tend to happen here). But I would still argue that "I/me" confusion is a lot more common.
Including hyper-correction, where people use "I" because they think it sounds more proper or formal in contexts where, grammatically, "me" would actually be correct. Such as saying "between you and I".
Yes, because the subject/object selection criterion is artificial for most speakers.
Quite. The case system with pronouns started breaking down in OE times and it seems that case and form selection are no longer directly correlated.
A woman on my NextDoor group is asking people to sign her petition to be a candidate for the School Board. Ms. Education posted: Aack!
Heh, that can be an issue, but the differences between the two versions of a long vowel tend to be such that it's usually clear - to me, at least. When someone talks about a long a, as in hate, I don't think they might possibly be pronouncing it with an ah sound. (Which in RP would be heart. A big difference between 'I hate you' and 'I heart you'!) Or if someone talks about the long i in fight, I don't wonder if they might be pronouncing it 'feet'. There are enough similarities in the various versions of English that variatioms don't tend to stretch this far. From what I've observed so far, the issue is more simply when people want to say 'Oh, but that's not a long i - you've got it all wrong!' rather than genuine misunderstanding.
A plæn
You pick easy ones. What if someone says "a like in class"? Even in North America Canadians tend to have more ash sounds than USians -- I know of one native Torontan who says Nazi with an ash, whereas in these parts we say it with an ah. Similar for the car make Mazda. I say ah, he says æ.
Which is why we rely on word order and particles. "Give me the ball" is 100% clear. "Give the ball to me" is so clear one goes, "Um, no. I'm not giving you to the ball."
The f/v/th/dh conflation made its way into Russian, since Russian has no sound corresponding to our th/dh sounds. Things with a theta in Greek get translated with an F. So you get Fyodor for Theodore, Feofan for Theophan, Foma for Thomas, Timofei for Timothy.
I don't see the problem. "Jim and I" where you'd use "I" (subject); "Jim and me" where you'd use "me" (object). Easy rule to remember. Never understood why this is so hard.
Because it's not natural for many English speakers. They have to make a conscious effort to use a construction that feels unnatural as opposed to the one that feels natural.
Speaking your own native language shouldn't feel like trying to remember the formal grammar of one you've learnt. You're asking people to stop mid flow, re-cast the sentence in their mind to take Jim out, and then put the sentence back together. This isn't how language works.
I was specifically talking about long vowels - if you read the context of my whole post and the previous posts I was addressing, it was expressed that it might be confusing talking about long vowels, as the term has two different meanings. I was saying I personally can usually tell from context, plus the fact that most use the lay meaning. If someone said 'A long a as in class,' it would probably be KarlLB, as he is the one using the phonetic meaning. I am not aware of any accent which pronounces class to rhyme with grace, so I think it would be fair to assume the lay meaning of 'long a' was not being used!
I will take an Imperial Stout, thank you. IPAs are not real beers in my mind. Want to know why new brewers come out with IPA's first? They are still learning how to make beer.
'Jim and I' also sounds quite formal for many dialects and social groups in the UK. I wouldn't say it in casual, fun chat - the more usual dialect, with a sense of light-hearted casualness about it, is 'Me and Jim...' Similar to 'I was sat on the bus' rather than 'I was sitting.' It's a bit of a class thing - it's more lower classes who say these, and upper classes sometimes sneer, but they have their own dialectical oddities too, as do Americans, that aren't officially 'correct,' but are dialect, part of the group language and identity.
I pronounce class with a short vowel though, like in cat.
Ha, good point, so it's unlikely that anyone would talk about 'a long a as in class'!
I suspect what's really going on for a lot of people is some trauma from being harshly corrected in grade school, and a resulting fear of getting it wrong--which leads them to over-correct, under-correct, and WTF-correct. Leave children alone and they echo their family and friends, which is usually right and when wrong, at least understandable.
There is an important distinction to be made here. North American IPA is a disgusting concoction that aspires to be fermented grapefruit juice and has no conceivable connection with beer as known to older civilizations. In fact, the curse of cheap citra hops is a greatly underestimated threat to North America, rather like donald trump was four years ago. A good traditional IPA is still a good beer.
I would never ask anybody to do any such thing. People can say whatever the hell they want. And others can think about their level of education and/or ignorance what they want. Free world.
Oh, is that what we were talking about?
Because putting yourself first is rude. Or so my mother told me.
Hm... I just googled b'schwa and can't find anything. Is it actually spelt like that? Or do you mean the dismissive vocal noise that has traditionally been represented in fiction as 'pshaw'? I remember that being used a lot in What Katy Did, which I loved reading as a kid.
It reminds me of "bushwah", which means nonsense, more or less.
Perhaps that's what NP means.
I guess someone who lives in a big white house in DC never learned that.
Sorry, I could not resist. I'll get me coat, now. (A Britishism if I ever heard one.)
I've no idea but it isn't a p. It's a b.
OK. "Jim and me went to the pub"
What? A real, live, open pub? Where? Lead me to it.
The funny thing is, all these issues with when to use "I" and "me" are pretty similar to what happened with the word "you", which became the default word in the 2nd person no matter what the situation - plural, singular, subject, object, polite, informal.
People dispensed with "thou" and started using "you" all the time. No more rules to remember about which was appropriate. Maybe we'll end up, after another century or two, with a similar situation where either "me" or "I' takes over.
Singular "they" might also get into a stronger position one day. People use it all the time in speech but then resist it in writing.