The one that really annoys me is the incorrect use of "myself" - some time ago I was in the bank talking to a member of staff and at the end of the conversation she said "any problems, just give myself a call".
But that's Irish English. It doesn't mean the person was Irish, but these things spread. Therefore "correct" in some dialects.
The one that really annoys me is the incorrect use of "myself" - some time ago I was in the bank talking to a member of staff and at the end of the conversation she said "any problems, just give myself a call".
I agree. (See my post on the previous page -- I'm having difficulty quoting it here for some reason.)
Yes, lots of things that are spoken sound weird to me, but that is not an indicator of anything really, except they are different from my dialect. "Everybody should sound like me" is not particularly insightful.
No ... the odd use of "myself" in UK English seems to have only become prevalent in the last few years. Probably because some popular TV series had characters that spoke that way .. I don't know.
I think the point that it's something recognisable from Irish dialects is instructive. The more I try learning other languages, the more I realise how forms of grammar bleed from one language into another. Irish English includes ways of speaking that reflect the way Gaelic grammar works.
This isn't novel. For example, there are a number of features of what we now think of as standard English that came from Norse, and others that came from French, that good old traditional Anglo-Saxons would have thought were weird. The Norse influences took hold in the North, and those ones that eventually caught on further South we now think of as normal rather than dialect.
Mind, I'm not convinced the British English use of reflexives in place of simple pronouns derives from Irish English. I hear it most often when people are trying to be formal. Dating right back to the Normal Conquest English has an undercurrent of feeling that Germanic OE words have somehow lesser status than those derived from French or Latin, especially when those OE words are monosyllabic. Unfortunately, that category includes all the regular pronouns - unmarked (me, you, him, her, us, them) and marked (I, he, she, we, they). The sense I get is that this usage derives from a feeling that these monosyllabic pronouns don't sound formal enough. I think they found themselves hauled in as would-be formal/polite alternatives modelled in part on the use of reflexives as intensifiers - "I washed the car myself" - where the reflexive pronoun actually already carries no reflexive meaning - compare with "I washed myself".
Interesting points, Karl. It brings to mind the use of "me" at the end of a clause, to give emphasis, "I'm going to the pub, me." This used to be common in Lancs, not sure now. The use of reflexives is something of a mystery, Irish is a guess.
The suffix '..self' isn't only a reflexive. As @KarlLB says, it's also used as an intensifier, to emphasise. "I washed the car myself" means 'I did it personally. I didn't just arrange for someone to do it or drive it through a carwash'.
It's therefore used colloquially, if erroneously, both to vaunt oneself and as an attempt to express respect.
Shall we say "non standardly" rather than "erroneously"? It's been around quite a while now and I've heard it from what sociolinguists might call "educated speakers".
Yes, this use of words like "erroneously" and "incorrect" baffles me. Presumably, people mean "not found in my dialect, therefore wrong". Or is there a big grammar book somewhere which lists all these incorrect usages? /sarcasm.
Reminded of the famous Irish usage, after knocking on the front door, "is himself in?" I think this is often tongue in cheek, incidentally, I think you do get "It's herself", so not just geezers (not Irish).
I struggle with the excessive use of the word bunch to describe a group of objects. I always thought bunches referred to carrots and flowers, but now I hear bunches of whales; ideas; politicians; meat; politicians; opportunities. etc etc. I have strange visions of whales grouped together and tied with a large pink ribbon. The odd use of bunch seems to be a recent happening where I live and I can't understand what has occurred.
I thought it was a pond thing. When I was in Canada, 'bunch' was used far more broadly than it's used in the UK, to refer to a group (or a lot) of anything - a bunch of friends, a bunch of books, a bunch of cookies, bunch of idiots. A variation was 'a whole bunch', which seemed to indicate quantity, that there was a lot of something. It seems to be an imfor,al usage - different from the specific usage of 'bunch of flowers.'
It always seemed to me quite similar (though not exactly the same) to how in the UK, it's common to say, informally, 'loads of.' I might say 'I've got loads of books/pens/sweets/etc.' Or in response to 'Do you have many ___?' I might say 'I've got loads.' I observed people didn't use that expression when I was in Canada - 'load' was used only in it's more specific meaning.
I think it is, and I think I recall that it’s been discussed somewhere previously in this thread. Interesting that some topics have come up repeatedly, but not surprising, I suppose, in a thread that’s been going on as long as this one has.
I've been using bunch for years to mean a lot. Presumably, I was influenced in some way, which illustrates how languages change, covertly. In fact, my impression is that in London, it's dying out.
'A bunch of five', in my youth, meant a fist - coming your way. 'You'll get a bunch of five if you don't shut up'. I had toexplain this to our Vicar, who proposed toset up pastoral groups of five people under that name.
I struggle with the excessive use of the word bunch to describe a group of objects. I always thought bunches referred to carrots and flowers, but now I hear bunches of whales; ideas; politicians; meat; politicians; opportunities. etc etc. I have strange visions of whales grouped together and tied with a large pink ribbon. The odd use of bunch seems to be a recent happening where I live and I can't understand what has occurred.
I can't get used to "a lot" meaning "a large number of objects." To me, it means a collection of things being auctioned off as a unit.
I struggle with the excessive use of the word bunch to describe a group of objects. I always thought bunches referred to carrots and flowers, but now I hear bunches of whales; ideas; politicians; meat; politicians; opportunities. etc etc. I have strange visions of whales grouped together and tied with a large pink ribbon. The odd use of bunch seems to be a recent happening where I live and I can't understand what has occurred.
Yes that has always grated with me too and I can date exactly when I first heard it: during the Falklands war, President Reagan in a speech referring to the islands as "that ice cold bunch of land down there" which I thought was very odd.
I always thought that the use of 'bunch' as described above was an Americanism,although I first heard it in Canada - a bunch of people would be something strange for me,but one begins to hear it now in UK.
I struggle with the excessive use of the word bunch to describe a group of objects. I always thought bunches referred to carrots and flowers, but now I hear bunches of whales; ideas; politicians; meat; politicians; opportunities. etc etc. I have strange visions of whales grouped together and tied with a large pink ribbon. The odd use of bunch seems to be a recent happening where I live and I can't understand what has occurred.
You do bring up a good point. Below are names for groups of animals. I find some names very odd, though:
Apes: a shrewdness
Baboons: a congress
Badgers: a cete
Bats: a colony, cloud or camp
Bears: a sloth or sleuth
Bees: a swarm
Buffalo: a gang or obstinacy
Camels: a caravan
Cats: a clowder or glaring; Kittens: a litter or kindle; Wild cats: a destruction
Cobras: a quiver
Crocodiles: a bask
Crows: a murder
Dogs: a pack; Puppies: a litter
Donkeys: a drove
Eagles: a convocation
Elephants: a parade
Elk: a gang or a herd
Falcons: a cast
Ferrets: a business
Fish: a school
Flamingos: a stand
Foxes: a skulk or leash
Frogs: an army
Geese: a gaggle
Giraffes: a tower
Gorillas: a band
Hippopotami: a bloat
Hyenas: a cackle
Jaguars: a shadow
Jellyfish: a smack
Kangaroos: a troop or mob
Lemurs: a conspiracy
Leopards: a leap
Lions: a pride
Moles: a labor
Monkeys: a barrel or troop
Mules: a pack
Otters: a family
Oxen: a team or yoke
Owls: a parliament
Parrots: a pandemonium
Pigs: a drift or drove (younger pigs), or a sounder or team (older pigs)
Porcupines: a prickle
Rabbits: a herd
Rats: a colony
Ravens: an unkindness
Rhinoceroses: a crash
Shark: a shiver
Skunk: a stench
Snakes: a nest
Squirrels: a dray or scurry
Stingrays: a fever
Swans: a bevy or game (if in flight: a wedge)
Tigers: an ambush or streak
Toads: a knot
Turkeys: a gang or rafter
Turtles: a bale or nest
Weasels: a colony, gang or pack
Whales: a pod, school, or gam
Wolves: a pack
Zebras: a zeal
Now there are several names for a group of politicians. Here are a few I found:
An ambition of politicians.
A team of politicians.
An equivocation of politicians.
An odium of politicians
A lie of politicians.
Bunch is used here pretty much as Fineline describes, not just for flowers, vegetables and fruit. "A prize bunch" of any particular group of people is not complimentary.
Those collective names seem more the domain of quizzes - we learnt them in primary school, but in reality, I find they are not used much in general conversation. I frequently see deer when I'm in the woods, and sometimes I pass other people who've seen them, and we have a brief conversation about them. We don't refer to them as 'a herd of deer,' though in theory we know that's the term. We say, 'I've seen some deer through there' or 'There's loads of deer up there!' or 'There's a lot of deer over that way - about a hundred of them.' (Pretty sure that man was exaggerating for effect, as I've never seen more than ten!)
That's because herd suggests a big group of deer or cows or whatever, as in counted in tens, and if I've just seen three or four deer, as is usually the case, I wouldn't think of them as being a herd.
Really obscure inquiry here. What does "Nemesis" mean in the States?
Back in the 60s there was a comic character, Nemesis Lad, who joined the Legion of Superheroes in order to betray them. One discussion page I follow regularly has comments saying, "They were stupid to accept him as his name tells you he's a villain," which makes no sense to me. (By enquiring about a term from the 60s I am showing how hip and with it I am!)
Off the top of my head I'd say your nemesis is your worst enemy, the person or thing that haunts you, that you spend your life trying to rid yourself of, or vice versa. Something along those lines.
Really obscure inquiry here. What does "Nemesis" mean in the States?
Nemesis was certainly the goddess of divine retribution - the downfall of those who fall victim to hubris. But that's a little specialized for everyday use.
In general use, I agree with @mousethief - it is used to mean something more like arch-enemy, definitely with the sense that the enmity is personal, long-standing, and relentless.
It has this sense in the Star Trek film of that name.
Really obscure inquiry here. What does "Nemesis" mean in the States?
Nemesis was certainly the goddess of divine retribution - the downfall of those who fall victim to hubris. But that's a little specialized for everyday use.
That's exactly what I was taught in school and what I have always understood it to mean. The teacher was always right back then.
That's because herd suggests a big group of deer or cows or whatever, as in counted in tens, and if I've just seen three or four deer, as is usually the case, I wouldn't think of them as being a herd.
Except that, as I pointed out, others seem to think there are many more. Which it can look like when they're all running together. And still no one says 'herd.' Same for other groups of animals, in my experience.
I've always said "a herd of deer", or else "a deer herd". Not sure what else you would call it...
If you see a farmer moving a large number of cows from one field to a different field, you might say "oh look - a herd of cows". If you see three cows standing under a tree, you are unlikely to call them "a herd of cows".
Comments
But that's Irish English. It doesn't mean the person was Irish, but these things spread. Therefore "correct" in some dialects.
I agree. (See my post on the previous page -- I'm having difficulty quoting it here for some reason.)
From which we conclude your dialect doesn't use the form for this function.
This isn't novel. For example, there are a number of features of what we now think of as standard English that came from Norse, and others that came from French, that good old traditional Anglo-Saxons would have thought were weird. The Norse influences took hold in the North, and those ones that eventually caught on further South we now think of as normal rather than dialect.
It's therefore used colloquially, if erroneously, both to vaunt oneself and as an attempt to express respect.
Yes, I was going to mention Scottish use of reflexives, then started reading some stuff about Gaelic, then lost heart.
And yes, I think your point is well taken.
Bloody autocorrect...
Like you, to me a bunch is radishes or flowers.
It always seemed to me quite similar (though not exactly the same) to how in the UK, it's common to say, informally, 'loads of.' I might say 'I've got loads of books/pens/sweets/etc.' Or in response to 'Do you have many ___?' I might say 'I've got loads.' I observed people didn't use that expression when I was in Canada - 'load' was used only in it's more specific meaning.
"You can't get anything for myself. Only I can get things for myself. You can, however, get things for me."
I can't get used to "a lot" meaning "a large number of objects." To me, it means a collection of things being auctioned off as a unit.
Or not.
Yes that has always grated with me too and I can date exactly when I first heard it: during the Falklands war, President Reagan in a speech referring to the islands as "that ice cold bunch of land down there" which I thought was very odd.
You do bring up a good point. Below are names for groups of animals. I find some names very odd, though:
Apes: a shrewdness
Baboons: a congress
Badgers: a cete
Bats: a colony, cloud or camp
Bears: a sloth or sleuth
Bees: a swarm
Buffalo: a gang or obstinacy
Camels: a caravan
Cats: a clowder or glaring; Kittens: a litter or kindle; Wild cats: a destruction
Cobras: a quiver
Crocodiles: a bask
Crows: a murder
Dogs: a pack; Puppies: a litter
Donkeys: a drove
Eagles: a convocation
Elephants: a parade
Elk: a gang or a herd
Falcons: a cast
Ferrets: a business
Fish: a school
Flamingos: a stand
Foxes: a skulk or leash
Frogs: an army
Geese: a gaggle
Giraffes: a tower
Gorillas: a band
Hippopotami: a bloat
Hyenas: a cackle
Jaguars: a shadow
Jellyfish: a smack
Kangaroos: a troop or mob
Lemurs: a conspiracy
Leopards: a leap
Lions: a pride
Moles: a labor
Monkeys: a barrel or troop
Mules: a pack
Otters: a family
Oxen: a team or yoke
Owls: a parliament
Parrots: a pandemonium
Pigs: a drift or drove (younger pigs), or a sounder or team (older pigs)
Porcupines: a prickle
Rabbits: a herd
Rats: a colony
Ravens: an unkindness
Rhinoceroses: a crash
Shark: a shiver
Skunk: a stench
Snakes: a nest
Squirrels: a dray or scurry
Stingrays: a fever
Swans: a bevy or game (if in flight: a wedge)
Tigers: an ambush or streak
Toads: a knot
Turkeys: a gang or rafter
Turtles: a bale or nest
Weasels: a colony, gang or pack
Whales: a pod, school, or gam
Wolves: a pack
Zebras: a zeal
Now there are several names for a group of politicians. Here are a few I found:
An ambition of politicians.
A team of politicians.
An equivocation of politicians.
An odium of politicians
A lie of politicians.
Back in the 60s there was a comic character, Nemesis Lad, who joined the Legion of Superheroes in order to betray them. One discussion page I follow regularly has comments saying, "They were stupid to accept him as his name tells you he's a villain," which makes no sense to me. (By enquiring about a term from the 60s I am showing how hip and with it I am!)
Nemesis was certainly the goddess of divine retribution - the downfall of those who fall victim to hubris. But that's a little specialized for everyday use.
In general use, I agree with @mousethief - it is used to mean something more like arch-enemy, definitely with the sense that the enmity is personal, long-standing, and relentless.
It has this sense in the Star Trek film of that name.
Except that, as I pointed out, others seem to think there are many more. Which it can look like when they're all running together. And still no one says 'herd.' Same for other groups of animals, in my experience.
If you see a farmer moving a large number of cows from one field to a different field, you might say "oh look - a herd of cows". If you see three cows standing under a tree, you are unlikely to call them "a herd of cows".