Purgatory: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread.

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  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    I suggest renaming COVID-19 "Trump Fever". He loves slapping his name on everything. Tell him it's advertising.
  • "Trump Fever" is the bigliest fever ever! It's a perfect fever, just like that phone call was perfect!
  • We haven't gotten around to evangelical TV people calling this virus judgement on ther Chinese for being atheist

    The thought did occur to me that it's judgment on the USA not only for electing you-know-who but for failing to impeach him when we had the chance. Also judgment on the world for kissing his fat bottom instead of denouncing him for the fraud that he is.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    The thought did occur to me that it's judgment on the USA not only for electing you-know-who but for failing to impeach him when we had the chance. Also judgment on the world for kissing his fat bottom instead of denouncing him for the fraud that he is.
    Problem with that theory is that Iran has definitely NOT kissed his fat bottom.

  • German = white people

    Racist much?

    German doesn't equal "white".
    German is a nationality

    Yeah. So it doesn't equal "white".
    Chinese, and other Asian is defined as race.

    No, it's a nationality. You can be white Chinese, you can be mixed race Chinese.



  • amyboamybo Shipmate
    Germany is mostly white, and in the USA (where the Resident is), is seen as a white country. China is mostly Chinese (although not all Han ethnicity), and even views Chinese-Americans who visit to be Chinese nationals. Talking about race is not racist.

    Calling this the Chinese flu, as Resident Trumpf did, is a dogwhistle to racists. I'm really happy that people on this forum do not recognize that dogwhistle. However, I assure you that the MAGA crowd knows exactly what it means, and they will hide behind your "but it's not racist" excuse as fast as they can. That's what a dogwhistle is for.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    amybo wrote: »
    Calling this the Chinese flu, as Resident Trumpf did, is a dogwhistle to racists. I'm really happy that people on this forum do not recognize that dogwhistle. However, I assure you that the MAGA crowd knows exactly what it means, and they will hide behind your "but it's not racist" excuse as fast as they can. That's what a dogwhistle is for.

    The modern Republican party mostly functions by demonization. It's hard to demonize an invisible enemy like a virus, but it's very easy to dust off all the old Yellow Peril tropes.
  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    Of course calling it "Chinese Virus" is racist. How can anyone think otherwise?
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    Should anyone be surprised that's what Trump calls it?
  • HedgehogHedgehog Shipmate
    I blame myself entirely. Back on March 12, over on the coronavirus thread, I semi-predicted:
    Hedgehog wrote: »
    Trump refers to COVID-19 as a 'foreign virus'. I'm surprised he doesn't accuse it of being brown, or Muslim, or both...
    Just be glad that (so far) he has refrained from calling it "the Mexican Beer Virus"...
    Clearly, I should have paused to think it through a little more. Of COURSE he would call it the Chinese virus.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    {Tangent re Germany.}

    As I understand it, Germany is (traditionally) not just a nationality. There are two German races: Nordic (blond hair, blue eyes) and Aryan (brown hair, brown eyes, and related to the top caste of India).

    (How the angry guy with the weird mustache got away with calling a Nordic "ideal" appearance "Aryan"...)

    And modern Germany seems to be really uncomfortable with people of other backgrounds becoming citizens or permanent residents. AIUI, that's been an issue with guest workers, too.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2020
    amybo wrote: »
    Germany is mostly white, and in the USA (where the Resident is), is seen as a white country.

    And they are wrong about it being a "white country".

    So you get morons, just as many Dems as right wingers, from the States who insist that they are "German" because their great-great-grandfather was German. They don't speak a word, never been there either. But when a delegation from Germany comes over, including an 2nd generation German [ Nationality ] who happens to be Asian, they refuse to believe that she can be German and want to know what she is really. Honestly, every other (real) German aka the delegation thinks the "Germans" are douchebags.

    German isn't a race it's a nationality.
    Spanish isn't a race it's a nationality.
    Irish isn't a race it's a nationality.
    "Scotch" isn't a race it's a nationality egg or a drink.
    Chinese isn't a race it's a nationality.
  • NicoleMR wrote: »
    Of course calling it "Chinese Virus" is racist. How can anyone think otherwise?

    Chinese isn't a race it's a nationality.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    {Tangent re Germany.}

    As I understand it, Germany is (traditionally) not just a nationality. There are two German races: Nordic (blond hair, blue eyes) and Aryan (brown hair, brown eyes, and related to the top caste of India).

    (How the angry guy with the weird mustache got away with calling a Nordic "ideal" appearance "Aryan"...)

    And modern Germany seems to be really uncomfortable with people of other backgrounds becoming citizens or permanent residents. AIUI, that's been an issue with guest workers, too.

    I'm going to guess that you aren't German and don't know any either?
  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    [Deleted User], that it's a nationality not a race is not the point. It's being used in a racist way, therefore it is racist.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Like the comment about Scotch.
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    @Golden Key said -
    And modern Germany seems to be really uncomfortable with people of other backgrounds becoming citizens or permanent residents. AIUI, that's been an issue with guest workers, too.

    Utter nonsense. Where did you get that information?

    My son is a German citizen, his partner is too (from Georgia). They started as guest workers then got residency, then citizenship.
    Their close friends are originally French, Portuguese, Kenyan, Australian, Canadian and Indian. All are now German citizens, some are married to Germans and some are married to each other. All have bilingual and trilingual children. My granddaughter will be trilingual (English, Georgian and German). They are absolutely welcomed and part of their community. And so am I when I visit - which is very often. I just got back home to England on Monday and my husband flew out to Germany the day after.

    We love it there and every effort we make at speaking German, with people we don’t know, is accepted with grace and friendliness. Even more so with our (many) German friends.
  • Boogie wrote: »
    We love it there and every effort we make at speaking German, with people we don’t know, is accepted with grace and friendliness. Even more so with our (many) German friends.

    The few times I've been to Germany I have amused the locals with what I remember from my high school German, but my efforts have always seemed to be appreciated. My interactions prove that Germans do indeed have a sense of humor. :smile:

  • Barnabas62 wrote: »
    Why doesn't Trump use the normal description like everyone else?

    Because he's as far from normal as the devil is from the heavenly banquet.

    Ahhh, but the Devil fell from Grace. Trump just tried to grab her thingy.

    One sad thing about my visit to Israel is that it is difficult to tell whether the people in Jerusalem's market are Arabs or Jews. They are only distinguishable when they wear traditional garb.

    One great thing about our most recent trip to America was that every face we saw could be an Australian face. Its only in the last 15 years that could be said, as more people from Africa have immigrated here and become citizens. Here is my favorite song celebrating our diversity. I apply it to the planet, not just Australia. I am, you are we are all human.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Various:

    --Where did I get the idea about (traditionally) two German races? Possibly from one of my long-ago German teachers who was from Germany. Possibly from text books. Possibly from mainstream news stories or travel shows. Nothing I came up with my own. But it was more than one thing.

    I remember being surprised when I heard that real Aryans, as I described, are related to the top caste in India. Given the hellish regime of that angry guy, it was surprising that a) Germans either didn't know that or somehow suppressed it; b) knowingly or not, accepted a group of Germans with that heritage; and c) applied the name of the Aryan-rooted group to the other group--and got away with it.

    --No, I'm not German. I don't currently know anyone from Germany in the offline world. I don't know whether I know anyone online, given the nature of the Interwebs.

    --This isn't about one racial group (of *any* kind, *anywhere*) being better than anyone else. All races/ethnicities are *absolutely* equal, and all people (of whatever race/ethnicity or other differences) are *absolutely* equal.

    --As to modern Germany not being comfortable with long-term immigrants: many news stories over many, many years, specifically saying that. In very mainstream news. Including in the last 20-30 years or so. Guest workers of other ethnicities being frustrated, because it was extremely difficult to get citizenship. Resentment towards large groups of refugees, some years back when European countries were expected to take in refugees. IIRC and AIUI, Angela Merkel spoke very much in favor of welcoming refugees and started doing it--but ran into trouble, because there was a lot of anti-immigrant feeling. IIRC, she had to modify her plans, or back off a little in her statements.

    This is why I've periodically said--in other discussions--that if Germany (and other countries) are really that uncomfortable with having foreigners of other ethnicities come in, and pass on that discomfort to the foreigners of other ethnicities, then maybe it would be better for *everyone*--especially the foreign workers--if they just didn't let them in.

    And I'm very much aware that my country, the US, tends to be just as bad. ISTM the US is more culpable than Germany, because the US is and always has been a nation of immigrants.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    I was listening to the briefing this morning when they asked him why he insists on calling it the Ch
    Virus. Of course, he said it came from there. And then he said, "They tried to blame it on American soldiers. You just don't do that."

    Good God! This is like a five-year-old claiming someone else did it first.

    My five-year-old grandson is more mature than you know who.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Various:

    --Where did I get the idea about (traditionally) two German races? Possibly from one of my long-ago German teachers who was from Germany. Possibly from text books. Possibly from mainstream news stories or travel shows. Nothing I came up with my own. But it was more than one thing.

    I remember being surprised when I heard that real Aryans, as I described, are related to the top caste in India.

    Ding-ding-ding-ding . . . this rings faint bells from my undergrad days (more than 50 years ago now) when I took 4 years of German instruction from a weird and terrifying native-born German named Budde (don't recall his first name). He must then have been around 50 -- of an age to have lived through WWII, though I don't know where he spent that time. I do recall he only took attendance on Jewish High Holy Days. I got As, apparently on the blondeness of my hair and the blueness of my eyes, because the amount of German fluency I now retain wouldn't propel a miniature dirt-bike once around the inside of a donut.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Ohher--

    Yikes! My teacher wasn't like that, though. A nice, good person. And had gone through WWII.

    I'm sorry you went through that.
  • I can learn a language to get good marks on the exam, but once that is over, it flies out of my head.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Clarification:

    Whatever it was I came across that explained about two German races, it didn't say one was better than the other.
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    @Golden Key your vague memories of school lessons and things you have vaguely seen on the news don’t wash.

    I have lived experience.

    ‘Oh I don’t know you, you’re only on the Interweb.’ is an insult to this wonderful community called the Ship. I’ve shared my photos on here for goodness sake, do you still think me - and my experiences - are not real?
    No, I'm not German. I don't currently know anyone from Germany in the offline world. I don't know whether I know anyone online, given the nature of the Interwebs.

    So you believe your own prejudice and vague ideas above my experience for the last ten years?

    I don’t know what to say :angry:
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Boogie--

    --I didn't deny anyone's experience. Show me where I said that, please.

    --As to prejudice: most people have some. I try to be aware of mine, and work on the ones I'm aware of.

    --If you're specifically referring to the traditional idea of two German races, that was never about prejudice--mine or anyone else's. There was nothing in my mind, my posts, or in what I heard that said one was better than the other.

    --This all started because I'd heard something that didn't make sense to me: people in the world *other than T* saying "Chinese virus", and others *automatically* assuming (and that is what I posted) that was a racist remark. I *asked* why, on this thread, because I knew of other diseases that were named for places. I also said that prejudice *could* be involved with "Spanish flu" and "German measles", but I didn't know of that.

    --I was not remotely defending T. Much of what he says/does is very racist.

    --I was simply trying to figure out something I didn't understand, so I *asked*.

    --If you're referring to what I said about Germans (in general) having a dislike of foreign workers and refugees
    who want to stay, that is (as I said) because of many, many mainstream news stories about that.

    An example from the German news service Deutsche Welle (DW):

    'Turks in Germany still lack a sense of belonging': It's been 55 years since Germany's recruitment agreement with Turkey. But many Turks still don't feel well integrated, says Gökay Sofuoglu, chairman of the Turkish Community in Germany (TGD)."

    The whole thing is pertinent. In the Q & A, there's this, between the interviewer and Mr. Sofuoglu:
    After all these years, many Turks in Germany still don't feel accepted. What is the cause of this?

    It's because of this lack of sense of belonging. To think that after 55 years here, some still don't have certain voting rights, that there are still latent forms of everyday racism, that people with Turkish-sounding names have difficulty finding a job or a place to live. In school, too, there are problems if you are from Turkey.

    This is mainstream enough that, remembering stories about Turkish guest workers, I searched on "Turkish guest workers Germany", and got many hits with Duck Duck Go. The first page of results starts right away with stories about difficulties, and ill feelings towards the Turks. There are other stories I could quote, but I'd wind up going over the link limit.

    --From the Guardian, in 2018:

    Angela Merkel stands firm as Germany's refugee row intensifies:
    Dispute could bring down coalition government, while leaders of France and Italy debate EU immigration policy

    The reference was to the refugee crisis in the summer of 2015, when Merkel’s open-border policy allowed almost a million refugees to enter Germany – a decision widely blamed for helping the rightwing, populist and anti-immigrant Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) into the Bundestag in elections last year.

    This is part of the mainstream news about that fraught refugee situation. I searched Duck Duck Go on "Merkel refugee crisis". Lots of pertinent hits on the first page.

    --I made a point of saying that my country, the US, *does the same sort of thing*, and *is more culpable* because of being a nation of immigrants.

    --Boogie, if you've had a better experience, if you have other knowledge, that's great! I was going by what I'd heard in the mainstream news, repeatedly, over decades. I think Shipmates discussed some of this at the time of the 2015 refugee crisis.

    --If I somehow insulted you, I'm sorry.
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    edited March 2020
    Thank you for your apology.

    But I still think to say ‘Germans in general’ and give a sweeping generalisation about how they feel about/treat foreign works and refugees is prejudiced.

    My son’s town had a huge US military base which house 6000 personnel. It closed down, so they gave over the whole base to caring for refugees.

    My son, all his friends of many and various nationalities and me, over the ten years he has lived there have had a much much better experience than you describe.

    I find the U.K. (government) very unfriendly to refugees and workers from abroad (See Brexshit) and plenty of English people agree with them - they recently voted for them in large numbers. :cry:

    Germany is streets ahead of us. The whole of the population of the former west Germany still pay a ‘solidarity tax’ to the former East Germany to help them catch up economically, nearly 30 years later.

  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    I remember, some years ago when we did Bed and Breakfast inour house, a young German lad stayed with us. He was really uncomfortable and embarrassed to see a black newscaster on the BBC.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    @ Administrators Has this thread, which is dedicated to the Trump administration, been hijacked? Seems like it has become a discussion about Germany.
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    Sorry 🤐
  • So Pelosi and Schumer are against universal cash payments. Trump will send out the cheques and look like a hero, or he'll run on how the Democrats didn't allow him to respond to the crisis.
  • You would think they'd be in favor of doubling the amount the fartletter-in-chief suggested, wouldn't you?
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    You would think they'd be in favor of doubling the amount the fartletter-in-chief suggested, wouldn't you?

    That's pretty much Schumer's position. (Haven't found a source for @chrisstiles' claim about Pelosi, but my guess is it's a similar mischaracterization.)
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    I've heard questions have been raised about whether people on disability, on full disability because they can't work, should get the payout. I can see both sides of that one.
  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    Should there be some sort of needs test before you get it? Like me. I'm on full paid leave, not losing anything so far, in fact I'm saving money by staying home. Should I get a cash payment? I'd sure like one... I'd use it to pay down some credit card debt. But is it fair and just?
  • Crœsos wrote: »
    You would think they'd be in favor of doubling the amount the fartletter-in-chief suggested, wouldn't you?

    That's pretty much Schumer's position. (Haven't found a source for @chrisstiles' claim about Pelosi, but my guess is it's a similar mischaracterization.)

    Both of them (see the tail of that article) want to use a means tested system instead (anyone who has been means tested should be able to give an insight as to how much more complex that makes claiming something when you need it)
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    NicoleMR wrote: »
    Should there be some sort of needs test before you get it?
    I think that redistribution should happen at the tax and revenue end rather than at the spending end. Needs tests should be cut to a minimum.
    Chrisstiles has already referred to the bureaucratic hassle needs tests impose upon claimants. (They also have a bureaucratic cost for administrators.)
    Also, means tested benefits are invidious. There will be people who don't quite meet the tests who are tempted to look with resentment upon those who do. (Also people tend to overestimate the size of benefits they don't receive.)
    Public benefits such as libraries or health services or pensions that are used by the better off tend to be better defended.
    People who do receive benefits may feel stigmatised or failures for having to receive them.
    There is also a perverse incentive trap as those who just meet the benefit criteria stand to become worse off when their circumstances improve if they lose the benefits. Trying to mitigate that effect makes the benefits more complicated to administer.
    The effects reinforce each other. For example, the invidious nature prompts politicians to impose more stringent or complex tests which are harder for the people who need the benefits to apply for and negotiate.

    Benefits should be as universal as feasible. They're due to all citizens as citizens, not as charity cases. The wealthy who don't need them should contribute more rather than receiving less.

  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    @Dafyd Good points.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    A few things caught my attention at the daily news conference.

    1) There were fewer people on the podium, but they were still packed together.

    2) The reporters were all spaced out, which meant there were fewer reporters--Trump seemed pleased. As the questions began, he said he wished he could spread the reporters out even more, even exclude some and he pointed to two reporters in the front rows and said he would kick them out first. Maybe he was joking, but it sure did not sound like it.

    3) There was an obvious plant that was there to throw him a softball question about we he still continues to call the virus after a certain country, but he was not pressed.

    4. But the most important answer he gave was about bailing out companies. He first said he would not want to see those companies using bailout monies to buy back their stock. A little later, he said he thought if the federal government bails out companies it should have some equity in the company

    Sounds like socialism to me.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Maybe he thinks *he* will somehow get some of the equity?
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    If Trump refuses to bailout companies without the g'mnt gaining shares, and pays a non-means tested amount to Americans, that would be a good thing I reckon. The downside is that the gmnt has no money because of his tax cuts and spending. OTOH how many times has he floated balloons and then popped them after talking to someone like Lindsay Graham?
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Crœsos wrote: »
    You would think they'd be in favor of doubling the amount the fartletter-in-chief suggested, wouldn't you?

    That's pretty much Schumer's position. (Haven't found a source for @chrisstiles' claim about Pelosi, but my guess is it's a similar mischaracterization.)

    Both of them (see the tail of that article) want to use a means tested system instead (anyone who has been means tested should be able to give an insight as to how much more complex that makes claiming something when you need it)

    I'm generally against most means testing for benefits for most of the reasons already cited. However, in this case there are some important mitigating circumstances. First, the U.S. unemployment compensation system already exists, so it's a good way to get money to people who've lost their jobs recently. No need to re-invent the wheel. Second, the number of people in the U.S. who will file a first claim for unemployment this week is going to be about eight times what it was the previous week and about triple the previous record. This seems like an urgent reason to pump some cash into this program specifically. Schumer is right that cutting someone a check for $1,000 isn't going to be sufficient.

    Of course the Trump approach to all this seems to be to "keep the numbers up", similar to his reluctance to fully report the extent of COVID-19.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    My problem with the current unemployment system is that when I file a claim I am only allowed 13 weeks in a year. I filed in May 2019. I will not be eligible to file again until the middle of May. That is six weeks away. So, the two cash payments will help me get to that time.

    The Democrats, though, are pushing to expand the unemployment program. Hoping the Republicans will listen.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    My problem with the current unemployment system is that when I file a claim I am only allowed 13 weeks in a year. I filed in May 2019. I will not be eligible to file again until the middle of May. That is six weeks away. So, the two cash payments will help me get to that time.

    The Democrats, though, are pushing to expand the unemployment program. Hoping the Republicans will listen.

    Democrats were able to force through an extension of unemployment benefits during the last financial crisis. Of course they had the benefit of controlling the presidency and both Houses of Congress in 2009-2011. On the other hand Congressional Republicans are probably more willing to support such an extension when one of their own is in the White House instead of President Kenyan Muslim Usurper.
  • There are at least 3 German races according to my German course many years ago in univ. Scene of crowded restaurant "may I sit at your table, I can see that you are not Bavarian".

    Back to trump, the twitter had a picture of his notes. He crossed out COVID and put in Chinese. He's dog whistle racism knows no bounds. https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1240721547133927426?s=20
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Back to trump, the twitter had a picture of his notes. He crossed out COVID and put in Chinese. He's dog whistle racism knows no bounds. https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1240721547133927426?s=20

    There's that, plus the fact that he'd rather everyone discuss his racism rather than his incompetent response to COVID-19.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    His State Secretary is now using the term :(
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    His State Secretary is now using the term :(

    But is apparently too busy to worry about Americans abroad being exposed to SARS-CoV-2.
    If you choose to travel internationally, your travel plans may be severely disrupted, and you may be forced to remain outside of the United States for an indefinite timeframe.

    <snip>

    Have a travel plan that does not rely on the U.S. Government for assistance.

    I believe that's bureaucratic-speak for "so long suckers, you're on your own!"
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    Wow, just wow - https://tinyurl.com/rshh2u5

    :cry: :confounded: :astonished:
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