Purgatory: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread.

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  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    You just fell for the trick. It was intentionally camp. Like magician acts, its a misdirection.
    Maybe. But wasn't zip-tie guy one of the ones you thought was part of the good plan? I just don't think having his face all over the internet is indicative of good planning.
  • edited January 2021
    I said his plan fell apart on Capitol staffers and congressional cellphones

    It was noted that much of the joint session had representatives and senators on the public galleries and not on the floor, which was a last minute change of plan.
  • Dave W wrote: »
    You just fell for the trick. It was intentionally camp. Like magician acts, its a misdirection.
    Maybe. But wasn't zip-tie guy one of the ones you thought was part of the good plan? I just don't think having his face all over the internet is indicative of good planning.

    Those guys seem to be proud of what they do ...
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    I said his plan fell apart on Capitol staffers and congressional cellphones

    It was noted that much of the joint session had representatives and senators on the public galleries and not on the floor, which was a last minute change of plan.
    But he was talking to random people who were recording him in a hotel lobby before the riot! If that was part of a plan, it was a pretty fucking stupid plan.
  • You just fell for the trick. It was intentionally camp. Like magician acts, its a misdirection.

    This reminds me of the theory that explains every act of stupidity by Trump as playing five-dimensional chess or some such.

    A better explanation I've heard before is that Trump is in the habit of metaphorically pulling a pin on a grenade and throwing it into a room he is just leaving.

    I think Trump definitely intended to cause chaos at the Capitol, and I think he leaned on DoD officials to delay deployment of the National Guard, but I don't think he or anyone else had much of a worked out Plan™ beyond that. His aim was to create chaos in the hope that he might somehow be able to benefit from the result (which he has often successfully done) whatever it turned out to be. I don't think there's a more sophisticated plan than that.
  • You just fell for the trick. It was intentionally camp. Like magician acts, its a misdirection.

    So, you're arguing that the furry viking dude was a decoy to take everyone's eyes off the real soldiers?

    Maybe, but it's also possible he's just one of those guys you see at many demos, who like to have all the cameras focused on them, but don't actually do any of the work.
  • Eutychus wrote: »
    You just fell for the trick. It was intentionally camp. Like magician acts, its a misdirection.

    This reminds me of the theory that explains every act of stupidity by Trump as playing five-dimensional chess or some such.

    A better explanation I've heard before is that Trump is in the habit of metaphorically pulling a pin on a grenade and throwing it into a room he is just leaving.

    I think Trump definitely intended to cause chaos at the Capitol, and I think he leaned on DoD officials to delay deployment of the National Guard, but I don't think he or anyone else had much of a worked out Plan™ beyond that. His aim was to create chaos in the hope that he might somehow be able to benefit from the result (which he has often successfully done) whatever it turned out to be. I don't think there's a more sophisticated plan than that.

    I think he was hoping everybody would be so shook up by whatever took place that they'd think "Hmm, the people really do seem riled up about this, maybe we should reconsider confirming the vote."
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    edited January 2021
    stetson wrote: »
    Ohher wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Maybe many of them think of social media and everything connected to it as something in their heads? And/or some kind of alt/mixed reality? So actual, real-world consequences do not, in their minds, apply.

    Thoughts?

    Nail, head, direct hit. I can imagine these guys go on in this fashion among workmates and buddies, many of whom will agree and approve (after all, don't most of us select our friends on the basis of similar believes and values?), so there's widespread support and agreement and zero negative consequences while in conversation over a beer after work. There's no taking on board the fact that the Internet is an entirely different environment, where one leaves tracks and boatloads of near-permanent evidence behind.

    It's a notable aspect of contemporary riots that many participants are willing to commit crimes right in front of strangers taking photos with their cell phones. You can google "Vancouver hockey riots 2011" for some breathtaking Profiles In Stupidity.

    (Though I suspect in the Capitol riots, there was also the factor that some of the rioters assumed they would actually succeed in stopping the vote, and would wind up as big heroes once the rest of the nation realized they had been saved from tyranny.)

    Yes.

    They believed their own rhetoric and trump’s lies. They were going to ‘stop the steal’ and win the day. They were going to be the heroes, no need to hide their identity if they were about to be the heroes who saved their country from a fate worse than communism.

  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Some of them reportedly made money from live-streaming what they were doing.
  • orfeo wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Crœsos wrote: »
    I hear people saying, "At least it wasn't an armed militia".

    And bombs don't count because . . . ?

    Open question, did any of the mob have open carry weapons? I can't actually see that they did. And there were no bombs at the Capitol either.

    Wait, so bombs don't count when they're at different buildings?

    There were pipe bombs aimed at both the Democrat headquarters and the Republican headquarters. If that's not insurrection, I don't know what is.

    Because it's not. It's terrorism. There is no evidence of guns or bombs in the mob allowed to take over the Capitol.

    I find it deeply strange, bordering on disingenuous, that you would talk as if the mob taking over the Capitol and the person placing pipe bombs are 2 completely separate things with no connection to each other whatsoever.

    I find it deeply strange that you'd not be forensic about this, but there again you are being fallacious.
  • Martin54Martin54 Suspended
    edited January 2021
    Eutychus wrote: »
    You just fell for the trick. It was intentionally camp. Like magician acts, its a misdirection.

    This reminds me of the theory that explains every act of stupidity by Trump as playing five-dimensional chess or some such.

    A better explanation I've heard before is that Trump is in the habit of metaphorically pulling a pin on a grenade and throwing it into a room he is just leaving.

    I think Trump definitely intended to cause chaos at the Capitol, and I think he leaned on DoD officials to delay deployment of the National Guard, but I don't think he or anyone else had much of a worked out Plan™ beyond that. His aim was to create chaos in the hope that he might somehow be able to benefit from the result (which he has often successfully done) whatever it turned out to be. I don't think there's a more sophisticated plan than that.

    What has Trump got to do with National Guard deployment? Did he also make the USCP incompetent prior?
  • Regards, the individual with the bison horns: He calls himself Qshammon. He is from Arizona. I do not think there is any Viking connections.
  • Cosplay.
  • This is quite worth the watch. From "Death to 2020", a clip. https://twitter.com/anotherJon/status/1348404220534337537?s=20
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Regards, the individual with the bison horns: He calls himself Qshammon. He is from Arizona. I do not think there is any Viking connections.

    One of the Phoenix TV stations interviewed his mother. "It takes courage to be a patriot," she said. Delusional.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Regards, the individual with the bison horns: He calls himself Qshammon. He is from Arizona. I do not think there is any Viking connections.

    One of the Phoenix TV stations interviewed his mother. "It takes courage to be a patriot," she said. Delusional.

    It takes stupidity to be a traitor.
  • How would she know what it takes to be a patriot? Her son is not a patriot but a zealot, and one presumes she is too from that answer.
  • Persuant to the issue of how centralized the attack on the Capitol was, it would seem that these guys, at least, were uncertain about whether or not Trump supported their actions.

    (Honestly, they come off like a bunch of high-school kids who got drunk and broke into the principal's office one Saturday night. Not that that will likely have any effect on the legal consequences they face.)
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    Eutychus wrote: »
    You just fell for the trick. It was intentionally camp. Like magician acts, its a misdirection.

    This reminds me of the theory that explains every act of stupidity by Trump as playing five-dimensional chess or some such.

    A better explanation I've heard before is that Trump is in the habit of metaphorically pulling a pin on a grenade and throwing it into a room he is just leaving.

    I think Trump definitely intended to cause chaos at the Capitol, and I think he leaned on DoD officials to delay deployment of the National Guard, but I don't think he or anyone else had much of a worked out Plan™ beyond that. His aim was to create chaos in the hope that he might somehow be able to benefit from the result (which he has often successfully done) whatever it turned out to be. I don't think there's a more sophisticated plan than that.

    What has Trump got to do with National Guard deployment? Did he also make the USCP incompetent prior?

    I'm certainly no expert, but if national guard troops are deployed outwith their home state does that not require federal authorisation, usually from the president? Plus the president is head of the DC national guard.
  • edited January 2021
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Regards, the individual with the bison horns: He calls himself Qshammon. He is from Arizona. I do not think there is any Viking connections.

    One of the Phoenix TV stations interviewed his mother. "It takes courage to be a patriot," she said. Delusional.

    It takes stupidity to be a traitor.


    It takes considerable vanity to look this much of a prick.





  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Regards, the individual with the bison horns: He calls himself Qshammon. He is from Arizona. I do not think there is any Viking connections.

    One of the Phoenix TV stations interviewed his mother. "It takes courage to be a patriot," she said. Delusional.

    It takes stupidity to be a traitor.


    It takes considerable vanity to look this much of a prick.





    Looks like a reject from the Village People #ProudBoys #GetHer.
  • That one of the zip-tie guys was a retired Air Force Lieutenant Colonel put me in mind of Brigadier General Jack D. Ripper from Dr Strangelove.
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    Eutychus wrote: »
    You just fell for the trick. It was intentionally camp. Like magician acts, its a misdirection.

    This reminds me of the theory that explains every act of stupidity by Trump as playing five-dimensional chess or some such.

    A better explanation I've heard before is that Trump is in the habit of metaphorically pulling a pin on a grenade and throwing it into a room he is just leaving.

    I think Trump definitely intended to cause chaos at the Capitol, and I think he leaned on DoD officials to delay deployment of the National Guard, but I don't think he or anyone else had much of a worked out Plan™ beyond that. His aim was to create chaos in the hope that he might somehow be able to benefit from the result (which he has often successfully done) whatever it turned out to be. I don't think there's a more sophisticated plan than that.

    What has Trump got to do with National Guard deployment? Did he also make the USCP incompetent prior?

    I'm certainly no expert, but if national guard troops are deployed outwith their home state does that not require federal authorisation, usually from the president? Plus the president is head of the DC national guard.

    Now that is legally interesting. But the USCP is not under Trump's command surely? Who did Sund report to?

    'U.S. Representative Zoe Lofgren – who chairs a committee responsible for Capitol security – accused Sund of lying to her before the event, about the preparations he had made and the readiness of the National Guard.'

    So he lied to his boss. That needs substantiating.
  • orfeo wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    This could go on any thread, but since stupidity is most at home on this one, I'll put it here.

    In the WaPo article on the FBI investigating those who invaded the Capitol, and firms firing employees who are discovered to have been insurrectionists, there is the case of Paul Davis, a lawyer FFS for an insurance firm, who live streamed from outside, saying that he wanted to get into the Capitol. A lawyer. Live streaming. Expressing his desire to enter federal property unlawfully. Darwin in action.

    I wonder...

    So many people on social media post about themselves doing unwise, illegal, dangerous, and/or mind-bogglingly stupid things. Even half a thought should set off some kind of "hmmm...consequences?" alarm.


    Maybe many of them think of social media and everything connected to it as something in their heads? And/or some kind of alt/mixed reality? So actual, real-world consequences do not, in their minds, apply.

    Thoughts?

    They don't believe they're doing something unwise, illegal, dangerous or mind-bogglingly stupid. They believe they're upholding the true Constitution, defending the nation etc etc, because that what Trump has told them over and over again.

    The fact that they believe these things is itself dangerous and mind-bogglingly stupid.

    The fact that we know that we are like this and don't secure against it is even more mind-bogglingly stupid. Although it looks like Lund was the weakest link in the assumption of security. There must be the fullest possible inquiry and trial.
  • Alan29 wrote: »

    Did you see the video further down, of the rioter bawling his head off at the airport because he's now on a no-fly list?

  • You mean he will now have to pee sitting down like a girlie? Oh the shame!
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    RockyRoger wrote: »
    You mean he will now have to pee sitting down like a girlie? Oh the shame!

    Are you using ‘girlie’ as an insult?

    That’s what trump would do.

  • Not at all, it's meant as irony - it is indeed what Trump would do . No offence intended at all. I used the term to emphasise the 'joke'.
  • Trump is the Sorcerer's Apprentice - he can't stop what he's started, even if he wants to.
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    I see that Bill Belichik has turned down Trump's award of the Presidential Medal of Freedom. I'm not convinced this says all that much about Belichik apart from that he reckons the Trump ship is sinking. But I wonder might it sway base opinion?
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Would T give some of the DC rioters a medal? Even if not in person?

    Even "pardon and presidential medal, thanks for your service to me and our country".

    :confounded:
  • Is there an acceptance speech when you get a medal? I might go and say something like:
    "And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird." Rev. 18:2

    or failing that, fake biblical from "Pulp Fiction", said by Samuel L. Jackson in the movie.

    “The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother’s keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.”

    (The end is sort of Ezekiel 25:17)
  • MSNBC is now saying McConnell is ready to impeach T. McConnell wants him out of the party. Now, will McConnell be ready to call the Senate back into special session or not?

    Business reports are also saying the T brand is going down in flames.

    Too bad (NOT)
  • Amazing that one has to be a _losing_ prick, and not just a prick, to demolish one's corporate image.

    I picked up on McConnel too (sorry, in one of the other 3 threads we have going on this!). Impeaching him seems almost as effective a Republican strategy to me, as coming up with a narrative which sticks saying that an agent of BLM / Antifa shot him.

    But who's next to ride the MAGA base?
  • Apparently the furry "shaman" has been refusing to eat the food in the jail where he is currently detained as it wasn't organic! They have promised to source him some.

    In other news, Trump's finances are heading up the creak even quicker now as the banks are refusing to do business with him.
  • In Republicanland, once you piss off big business, you're toast.
  • Pendragon wrote: »
    Apparently the furry "shaman" has been refusing to eat the food in the jail where he is currently detained as it wasn't organic! They have promised to source him some.

    Peanut Butter and Bread is too good for him!
  • I read that his request for organic food is being challenged. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I feel for the kitchen staff, who have to deal with kosher, vegetarian, diabetic, diets and such while also trying to feed a great many inmates and staff 3 times a day.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    I saw that his mother said he gets sick without organic food. His public defender seemed not to understand what the rioter wanted/needed. So I don't know if the rioter himself asked for organic.

    I'm for organic food, BTW. I think that's what everyone should be eating. (I'm not saying no junk food, though there are some healthier versions that taste good.)

    There was also mention of Muslim prisoners in Florida, who were given the choice of pork, or damaged/out-of-date packaged Halal meals.
    :(

    Seems to me that if prisoners, detainees, etc. get decent food, they're more apt to behave decently, which would help keep the guards safe(r).
  • @Golden Key I get sick when I see fascists, but I've been fed a steady diet of that for a while. Q-Shaman can eat what is the special of the day until he supplies a doctor's note. Not from mummy, who also proclaims his rather suspect patriotism.

    @TurquoiseTastic I wouldn't claim any special insight into Belichick's soul, but he has nothing to gain or lose from Trump's rise or fall. He supported Trump in 2016, and after the events of last Wednesday, doesn't - or, at least, doesn't politically. Unlike the cabinet rats deserting the sinking ship, Belichik's fortune's have only the most tenuous connection to Trump. He has long had a reputation as someone who does not follow the crowd, and who takes his patriotism seriously and puts it into action. I'm not asking you to love him (I would have preferred that he said nothing in 2016), but I wonder why you're taking a shot at him.

  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    PG--

    Understood. I think maybe I didn't express myself very well. I'll try again.

    --His insistance (if it was his) on organic food in jail is at least naive, and possibly precious. (Precious as in "Ooo, I can't possibly eat what everyone else is eating".)

    --Organic food is good, and everyone should be eating it. Even junk food can be healthier, and made from organic ingredients.

    --Many people find their health improves when they eat organic.

    --Prison food is notoriously awful.

    --The Muslim prisoners I mentioned were purposely treated badly through food.

    --General comment: Given all that, improving prison food might well help the prisoners be healthier, which might mean more well-behaved, which would be safer for everyone--including the guards. (Good food for the guards might help, too.)
  • Define organic food.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    There are strict rules for farmers who want their produce to be labeled "organic". Basically, don't use products and techniques that can make people sick, give them cancer, etc. That's very much a postage-stamp, tl;dr answer. Lots of details and debate online, should you choose to follow up.

    What this man and/or his mother might specifically mean, I don't know. Sometimes, "organic" is used in a very casual, colloquial sense to mean eating food that's good for you, and not eating stuff that's bad for you.
  • Define organic food.

    Any food certified organic by Oregon Tilth.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    That one of the zip-tie guys was a retired Air Force Lieutenant Colonel put me in mind of Brigadier General Jack D. Ripper from Dr Strangelove.
    Golden Key wrote: »
    There are strict rules for farmers who want their produce to be labeled "organic". Basically, don't use products and techniques that can make people sick, give them cancer, etc. That's very much a postage-stamp, tl;dr answer. Lots of details and debate online, should you choose to follow up.

    What this man and/or his mother might specifically mean, I don't know. Sometimes, "organic" is used in a very casual, colloquial sense to mean eating food that's good for you, and not eating stuff that's bad for you.

    The difficulty is that US organic regulations are extremely lax and wouldn't pass muster in Europe.
  • The difficulty is that US organic regulations are extremely lax and wouldn't pass muster in Europe.

    Not really a difficulty in that Mr. Hornhead is in jail in the US.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    PG--

    Understood. I think maybe I didn't express myself very well. I'll try again.

    --His insistance (if it was his) on organic food in jail is at least naive, and possibly precious. (Precious as in "Ooo, I can't possibly eat what everyone else is eating".)

    --Organic food is good, and everyone should be eating it. Even junk food can be healthier, and made from organic ingredients.

    --Many people find their health improves when they eat organic.

    --Prison food is notoriously awful.

    --The Muslim prisoners I mentioned were purposely treated badly through food.

    --General comment: Given all that, improving prison food might well help the prisoners be healthier, which might mean more well-behaved, which would be safer for everyone--including the guards. (Good food for the guards might help, too.)

    Total agreement here
  • I'm not a nothing-but-bread-and-water guy (quite the opposite, in fact) but I find it bitterly ironic that these people want to overthrow the properly constituted government and then expect that government to make special provisions for them. They're lucky they weren't black - and shot. Like the protestor who weeps about being maced, because all she wanted to do was participate in the revolution. There are a lot of Bolsheviks in the celestial Politburo having a good belly laugh at that. It's all very snowflakey, and I have no patience for it.
  • edited January 2021
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Regards, the individual with the bison horns: He calls himself Qshammon. He is from Arizona. I do not think there is any Viking connections.

    One of the Phoenix TV stations interviewed his mother. "It takes courage to be a patriot," she said. Delusional.

    It takes stupidity to be a traitor.


    It takes considerable vanity to look this much of a prick.

    Vain prick on prison hunger strike - demands organic food.

    Not entirely in the tradition of Bobby Sands, whatever your politics.

    I have just looked at that picture again - I really like it, which is why I have just quoted myself (vain prick). I never noticed the guy behind him to our right, with an eagle rubber head on! How cool does that incognito freedom warrior feel now. How sad am I (muppets fan) that he forgot to paint the head blue.

    (Sorry, home school means I am on an old tablet. You will have to look up Sam the muppets eagle yourself).

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