Purgatory: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread.

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  • edited January 2021
    Pendragon wrote: »
    Apparently the furry "shaman" has been refusing to eat the food in the jail where he is currently detained as it wasn't organic!

    Connie Marble's unforgettable line from the John Waters cult classic film "Pink Flamingos" springs to mind:
    You can eat shit for all I care, or eat anything you want, or do anything you want. Just don't assume that I want to know your troubles.

    And where's disgraced Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio with his famous green baloney sandwiches when we need him so badly?
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    @TurquoiseTastic I wouldn't claim any special insight into Belichick's soul, but he has nothing to gain or lose from Trump's rise or fall. He supported Trump in 2016, and after the events of last Wednesday, doesn't - or, at least, doesn't politically. Unlike the cabinet rats deserting the sinking ship, Belichik's fortune's have only the most tenuous connection to Trump. He has long had a reputation as someone who does not follow the crowd, and who takes his patriotism seriously and puts it into action. I'm not asking you to love him (I would have preferred that he said nothing in 2016), but I wonder why you're taking a shot at him.
    I didn't particularly mean to take a shot; I was just a bit wary of portraying his action as heroic as the article's headline seemed to do (the article itself was rather more nuanced).
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Purgatory Host, Circus Host
    The guy wearing the eagle mask at least had the good sense not to be obviously identifiable on photographic evidence of him committing a crime. The Guardian had an interview last week with Saul Loeb, one of the press pack who took many of the images that have been widely published since and notably the one of the guy with his feet up on Nancy Pelosi's desk, He was astonished by how easily many of the insurrectionists allowed themselves to be photographed.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    The horned guy reportedly called the FBI and said yes, that's me in the pics.

    Some guest on a radio broadcast suggested it really would have been a good time to wear a mask--like, say, a covid mask. They hide faces pretty well.

    I'm a little...anxious (?)...about the folks on social media who are crowd-sourcing identification of rioters from videos and pics. They can be very, very wrong. After the Boston Marathon bombing, years back, social media-ites were sure they'd tracked down one of the bombers in New York City. I think it even went as far as his getting threats. But they had the wrong guy. He had nothing to do with it. They could've gotten him killed.
  • yep - vigilante justice is for the Trumpers.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    The horned guy reportedly called the FBI and said yes, that's me in the pics.

    Some guest on a radio broadcast suggested it really would have been a good time to wear a mask--like, say, a covid mask. They hide faces pretty well.

    I'm a little...anxious (?)...about the folks on social media who are crowd-sourcing identification of rioters from videos and pics. They can be very, very wrong. After the Boston Marathon bombing, years back, social media-ites were sure they'd tracked down one of the bombers in New York City. I think it even went as far as his getting threats. But they had the wrong guy. He had nothing to do with it. They could've gotten him killed.

    Generally white people are (a) more likely to be correctly identified by other white people than are people of colour and (b) less likely to be subject to people assuming their guilt.
  • I thought the bombers were Georgian or Azerbaijani. Are they PoC these days?
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    I thought the bombers were Georgian or Azerbaijani. Are they PoC these days?

    Wikipedia says Chechen-Kyrgyzstani. They don't read as "white" in photographs to me but it's not something I'm going to argue over.
  • These people thought they were heroic patriots. Of course they wanted to be photographed.They didn't contemplate any possibility of a consequence.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    It really would have been a good time to wear a mask--like, say, a covid mask. They hide faces pretty well.

    So far no one I've encountered who knows me has failed to recognize me in a mask.
  • edited January 2021
    If you're a white supremacist, it's mommy advocating for organic food for you.
    If your a brown person, it's separate you from your mommy and no soap or toothpaste for you.
    One of them actually committed a crime
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    It really would have been a good time to wear a mask--like, say, a covid mask. They hide faces pretty well.

    So far no one I've encountered who knows me has failed to recognize me in a mask.

    I have SO failed to recognise people who I have met a handful of times when they are masked up. It is very embarrassing. I think I might recognise people by focusing on their nose/mouth/chin region. Obligatory Monty Python reference.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    It really would have been a good time to wear a mask--like, say, a covid mask. They hide faces pretty well.

    So far no one I've encountered who knows me has failed to recognize me in a mask.

    I have SO failed to recognise people who I have met a handful of times when they are masked up. It is very embarrassing. I think I might recognise people by focusing on their nose/mouth/chin region. Obligatory Monty Python reference.

    Faceblind as I am, I take a sinful pleasure in watching other people struggle right now.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    A technical question please. The headlines here are that Trump has been impeached for the second time. Is that correct, or do we have to wait until he has been convicted by the Senate to say that he's impeached?
  • Yes. The Donald will indeed go down in history as the first (hopefully the only) president to be impeached twice. Not sure if there's a paywall here but certainly Kim Darroch must surely be experiencing a degree of schadenfreude.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    So it's the finding that he should be tried by the Senate that is the impeachment.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    It really would have been a good time to wear a mask--like, say, a covid mask. They hide faces pretty well.

    So far no one I've encountered who knows me has failed to recognize me in a mask.

    I have SO failed to recognise people who I have met a handful of times when they are masked up. It is very embarrassing. I think I might recognise people by focusing on their nose/mouth/chin region. Obligatory Monty Python reference.

    Faceblind as I am, I take a sinful pleasure in watching other people struggle right now.

    Say three Hail Marys and call me in the morning.
  • Heh.

    "Impeached" means "formally accused by the House of a crime which, if he is found guilty, will get him removed."

    He has been so accused.

    And regardless of whether he is ever convicted, that impeachment will be a blot on his name. It's not something that is ever done lightly.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Thanks for that detail LC.
  • I am wondering if this will prevent him from giving him a self pardon for what happened.
  • I gather there are lawyers looking at the problem of a president giving himself a blanket pardon, also whether or not they can issue a blanket pardon to all family members.
  • Trump has just released a video urging restraint and claiming he has always supported the rule of law 🤣

    No mention of his impeachment.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    The problem with pardoning, though, is that it necessarily involves an implied admission of guilt. You can't be "pardoned" for a crime you claim never to have committed.
  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    Sure you can. Michael Flynn and Roger Stone claim to be innocent, and they’re both happy with their pardons.
  • mousethiefmousethief Deckhand, Styx
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    I am wondering if this will prevent him from giving him a self pardon for what happened.

    This is a good point because if I remember the right to pardon excludes matters of impeachment.
  • It doesn’t get you out of the impeachment, or prevent a conviction in the Senate. That’s specifically ruled out. But Trump can and probably will attempt a self pardon because it just might help him in the federal court cases that are doubtless being readied as we speak.
    Impeachment is primarily a political remedy for being a bad office holder—it is a chance to fire your ass. Any federal crimes you may have committed along the way are still tryable in the federal courts and are thus susceptible to a pardon—if you can come by one legitimately. Which a self pardon arguably is not. And neither is a pre-pardon, which I expect will trip up some of these creatures when they get back to their criming ways, forgetting (as they will) that pardons affect only the past.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Kind of like some people used to wait to be baptized until late in life, so all their sins would get a blanket pardon/forgiveness.

    Of course, if they happened to live much longer...
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    I wonder if the furry shaman's outfit was influenced by Maurice Sendak's Wild Things? After all he was part of a wild rumpus.

    I do hope not because I love that story.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    I gather from Twitter that the bison headdress is appropriated from Native American culture, whilst the tattoos are Viking influenced.

    He was thrown out of the navy in 2007 because he refused to have an anthrax vaccine.

    “A public defender who was representing Chansley said that his client was on an extremely restrictive diet, possibly for religious reasons.

    He explained that he had not had anything to eat since he was taken into custody.

    Upon hearing the news, the judge said that it was 'deeply concerning' and ordered Chansley's public defender to work with U.S. Marshals on his dietary concerns”

    (From the Daily Mail)

    Whilst I am able to believe there are a lot of perfectly compos mentis domestic extremists willing to storm the US Capitol - I do wonder if this particular individual is mentally unwell.

    Going on hunger strike due to a lack of organic food is hardly characteristic of far right thought.
  • Going on hunger strike due to a lack of organic food is hardly characteristic of far right thought.

    People don't always live up to the "characteristic" view of their ideological grouping.

    I know a guy in Canada who has what could be called near-far-right political views, and believes that any true Christian(like himself) has to accept only the most literal reading of Genesis.

    He is also a pretty militant vegetarian, who can parse the nutritional difference between various items at the local organic health-food grocery, and used to lecture me incessantly on my unhealthy diet, more vehemently than any Gaia-worshipping eco-hipster of my acquaintance.

  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    LC--

    Faceblind as I am, I take a sinful pleasure in watching other people struggle right now.

    You wicked thing, you!
    ;)
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    Does he believe what comes out of his mouth? Psychologically I suppose so. Say it enough and it's true. He was pro-abortion and now he's not because he's talked himself in to it? But he must have been talked in to it too, and presumably not just out of cynical politics? Although initially I imagine it was, 'Don, you gotta be pro-life for the Evo support', 'Sure.' He's talked up normal, trivial election fraud leveraged by his fear of postal voting catalysed by Covid, which he knew favours Democrats. So, what doesn't he believe that comes out of his mouth? Has he ever lied? He incited insurrection witlessly I conclude. Which is no excuse. And in the vein of say it and it's true, all representatives must take an oath accepting the judicially free and fair election results or be deselected.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    I think the only thing he really believes in is himself.

    Trump is essentially a man who hates governance but loves power. He's got no idea what he's going to use that power for other than self-glorification, but stand in the way of that and he'll unleash upon you.
  • I’m (aha, found the apostrophe on this tablet thing!) not sure that the ego leaves room for ideas like ‘believe’, or even ‘truth’, in the minds of people like Trump. To be able to reflect on whether you believe what you say conjures the possibility that it matters because of Truth, and that if the answer were ‘no’ then some other corrective action might be necessary. The people I know well who are like this know how to look a bit human - ‘hmmm, well, yes, I see where you might be coming from’ (kind of high pitched speculative tone) - but one always knows the tone is about to descend dramatically to a didactic ‘ BUT I have to say I’m right all along and up really is down, when you really think about it’. I reckon their inner conversation, such as it exists, is much the same.
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    Thanks guys. I've said your opening line @orfeo. We intuit the same thing I believe. Evolution eh!
  • Huia wrote: »
    I wonder if the furry shaman's outfit was influenced by Maurice Sendak's Wild Things? After all he was part of a wild rumpus.

    I do hope not because I love that story.

    At least two political cartoonists have used the theme - one pre-riot and one post. Sendak would, as a gay Jewish man, be rotating in his grave at recent events.
  • orfeo wrote: »
    I think the only thing he really believes in is himself.

    Trump is essentially a man who hates governance but loves power. He's got no idea what he's going to use that power for other than self-glorification, but stand in the way of that and he'll unleash upon you.

    Or as Anthony Trollope put it in 'The Way We Live'


    "There was one man who thoroughly believed that the thing at the present moment most essentially necessary to England’s glory was the return of Mr. Melmotte for Westminster. This man was undoubtedly a very ignorant man. He knew nothing of any one political question which had vexed England for the last half century,—nothing whatever of the political history which had made England what it was at the beginning of that half century … He had probably never read a book in his life. He knew nothing of the working of parliament, nothing of nationality,—had no preference whatever for one form of government over another, never having given his mind a moment’s trouble on the subject. He had not even reflected how a despotic monarch or a federal republic might affect himself, and possibly did not comprehend the meaning of those terms. But yet he was fully confident that England did demand and ought to demand that Mr. Melmotte should be returned for Westminster. This man was Mr. Melmotte himself."

    If Trollope had had Donald Trump before his eyes as he wrote this book he couldn't have painted a more accurate picture of the rise and fall of a self-aggrandising swindler who is raised to untenable heights by a foolish support base.
  • AnteaterAnteater Deckhand, Styx
    Can anyone explain what impeachment can achieve? I'm not against it and certainly not defending Trump. I'm just unclear. My assumptions are:

    1. He will not be convicted. I believe fewer Republicans than expected supported impeachment. So the likelihood of a 2/3 majority is zilch.
    2. Therefore he will not be excluded from a run in 2024. However, that seemed unlikely anyhow.

    Will it allow more examination of his finances? Since no form of fraud or tax evasion forms part of the charge, I'm not clear this can be leveraged to get at his tax details.

    I think the only people who will be influenced by impeachment, given what we already know, are Trump waverers who could be forced back to him out of resentment for what may seem a vindictive waste of time.

    I hope I am right in believing that acting as a deterrent to future Presidents is not required.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    T says whatever he feels he needs to say in the moment to get through it.
  • TrudyTrudy Heaven Host
    Faceblind as I am, I take a sinful pleasure in watching other people struggle right now.

    Isn't it great?? They're all on our level now!!
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    I’m not - I recognise people just as well in a mask as not, I must concentrate on the eyes. 😇
  • Anselmina wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    I think the only thing he really believes in is himself.

    Trump is essentially a man who hates governance but loves power. He's got no idea what he's going to use that power for other than self-glorification, but stand in the way of that and he'll unleash upon you.

    Or as Anthony Trollope put it in 'The Way We Live'


    "There was one man who thoroughly believed that the thing at the present moment most essentially necessary to England’s glory was the return of Mr. Melmotte for Westminster. This man was undoubtedly a very ignorant man. He knew nothing of any one political question which had vexed England for the last half century,—nothing whatever of the political history which had made England what it was at the beginning of that half century … He had probably never read a book in his life. He knew nothing of the working of parliament, nothing of nationality,—had no preference whatever for one form of government over another, never having given his mind a moment’s trouble on the subject. He had not even reflected how a despotic monarch or a federal republic might affect himself, and possibly did not comprehend the meaning of those terms. But yet he was fully confident that England did demand and ought to demand that Mr. Melmotte should be returned for Westminster. This man was Mr. Melmotte himself."

    If Trollope had had Donald Trump before his eyes as he wrote this book he couldn't have painted a more accurate picture of the rise and fall of a self-aggrandising swindler who is raised to untenable heights by a foolish support base.

    That sounds fantastic - and worth reading, if only to stand a chance of sounding as erudite as you just have!
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited January 2021
    Anteater wrote: »
    I think the only people who will be influenced by impeachment, given what we already know, are Trump waverers who could be forced back to him out of resentment for what may seem a vindictive waste of time.

    This is my biggest concern as well. Among the pragmatic Never-Trump "Biden Republicans" of 2020, there will be a certain number who will just want to "put this all behind us", and will be alienated by the Democrats seemingly dragging it on. But if the Democrats were to forego impeachment, they wouldn't lose many votes among their traditional supporters.

    And yes, I realize that "Put it all behind us" is just a loftier way of saying "Can we please forget that my favorite political party ransacked the Capitol and killed a cop?" But the fact of the matter is, those people still vote, and as long as Republican treason and fratricide remain in the public eye(*), there's no need for the Democrats to get down into the fray.

    (*) Which they will, because there is going to be a constsnt surfacing of footage in the short-term, plus the criminal cases will go on for months if not years. And, twitter or no twitter, Trump and his crew are going to be doing battle with the GOP establishment until at least the midterm elections.


  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Purgatory Host, Circus Host
    Disbarring Trump from ever running for office again requires only a simple majority in the Senate, so looks quite obtainable to me. Lisa Murkowski seems to be leaning towards voting against him this time, and I can't imagine Mitt Romney's opinion of the president has improved since the previous impeachment vote.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited January 2021
    CBS News is reporting that even though the impeachment trial will be after Biden is elected, it is still important to complete because it can still deny the man's customary emoluments: Secret Service Protection for life, Travel allowance for life, $200,000 retirement pay, and eligibility for federal office.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    CBS News is reporting that even though the impeachment trial will be after Biden is elected, it is still important to complete because it can still deny the man's customary emoluments: Secret Service Protection for life, Travel allowance for life, $200,000 retirement pay, and eligibility for federal office.

    That's some pretty major stuff to be depriving an ex-POTUS of. Electorally speaking, I think the Democrats might be overplaying their hand on this.

    If Trump is left alone, but keeps on with his rantings, he comes off as a nutter. But if he's impeached, and keeps on with his rantings, the narrative becomes "Well, of course he's mad, those mean old Democrats won't just let him get on with his life. This is a time for the nation to come together and heal."

    And yeah, that's mostly bullshit, but there's a good chunk of the electorate who love a redemption story, especially if the hero is a man they now regret having supported, but wish they could start feeling good about again.
  • BoogieBoogie Heaven Host
    edited January 2021
    It shouldn’t be about his ‘base’ or his supporters. It should be about doing what’s right, holding him to account and making sure his never able to hold office again.

    He’s come over as a nutter for years now - that doesn’t seem to deter his crazy ‘base’ one iota.
  • Maybe martyrdom is a risk, but how can you overlook somebody trying to overthrow the government? As people are saying about the National Guard, camped in the Capitol, they're there to protect us from the commander in chief.
  • Boogie wrote: »
    It shouldn’t be about his ‘base’ or his supporters. It should be about doing what’s right...

    This.

    The man has to be impeached, because there simply MUST be consequences for the outrageous event he engineered last week, and those consequences must fall on the "onlie begetter" of the whole damn thing. Even if we accomplish no more than the bare fact of impeachment, and he goes on to be acquitted of everything, still there is this. He's the first and only president ever to have been impeached twice. That fact will be at the head of any future description of him and his time, along with an explanation of why. It will be the first thing kids learn about him in school. He will become a crossword clue under that datum. Trivia nights will reference him that way. And I daresay, even the Republican Party, as low as it's sunk, will hesitate to run a twice-impeached man for office in 2024. They have other options (really sucky ones, but still). He's radioactive now.

    Yes, you're never going to convince the cultists.
    But you don't have to.
    The non-cultists in the United States spoke at the election, and they are a majority. And they will never vote for a twice-impeached, insurrectionist asshole.

    One impeachment can be put down to political animus combined with missteps not amounting to major crimes, etc. etc. etc. Two in a single term (especially with members of your own party involved) says "WTF is wrong with you?"

    And it says to any future assholes considering taking him for an example that even the most supine Congress will eventually bite back.



  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Boogie is right. Impeachment was the right thing to do, and his base is dissociated from reality anyway.

    We have 30,000 troops in DC because Trump won't stand down. Every state capitol is braced for armed conflict. Members of Congress and the VP were nearly killed last week. This is not a peaceful transfer of power. This is a turning point in history. If it goes wrong, our democracy is doomed. The Democrats are not overplaying their hand. Trump and his hardcore followers need to be stamped down hard in every legal way so that we don't have to do it with the military.
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