Why, may I ask? Sounds thoroughly biblical to me (Hebrews 1:4).
The Mother of Jesus cannot be "most" gracious. Only God can be "most" gracious. The words "most gracious" should be replaced by "blest mother."
Ah, we're not looking at the same verse. My v.2 is the one "O higher than the cherubim".
That is my stanza 2. It calls on the mother of Jesus to praise God.
The phrase "higher than the cherubim, more glorious than the seraphim" used to offend me since it seemed to contradict the statement in Psalm 8 that mankind is "a little lower than the gods" (which would include the angels). But I now understand that the mother of Jesus can have a place of honor above the angels.
Ah, I didn't take "the bearer of the Holy Word" to mean Mary. I actually thought that was a reference to Jesus himself.
Interesting perspective. I’ll see if I can formulate a serviceable OP.
If people want to continue the discussion on militarism I can split the thread and start a new one. Can someone suggest a good title? My creativity seems to be taking a holiday.
I don't particularly want to. On the other hand we are coming towards That Time Of Year when the links between Christianity, civic religion and the military tend to come into focus.
Interesting perspective. I’ll see if I can formulate a serviceable OP.
If people want to continue the discussion on militarism I can split the thread and start a new one. Can someone suggest a good title? My creativity seems to be taking a holiday.
Thanks, but I don’t know that we need to. As has been noted before, the beauty of this thread is that it allows for some meandering during the week depending on what someone sang on a particularly Sunday, but then resets itself the next Sunday.
On the other hand we are coming towards That Time Of Year when the links between Christianity, civic religion and the military tend to come into focus.
In the UK.
My suspicion is that a thread on that will turn into yet another rehash of the problems with “I Vow the Thee, My Country.”
God is here, as we his people (Blaenwern)
At the name of Jesus (Camberwell)
Take my life ( Nottingham)
There is a redeemer
All hail the power of Jesus’ name ( Diadem)
Hymns are currently being chosen by our pianist, as we are in musical interregnum. No sung mass settings or anthem.
Yesterday, Scottish Voices sang Choral Evensong at Greyfriars Kirk in Edinburgh:
Introit: For the beauty of the earth - Rutter
Preces & Responses - Clucas
Psalm 67 - chant by Garrett
Mag & Nunc: Sumsion in A
Anthem: The heavens are telling - Haydn
Hymns: For the fruits of all creation - East Acklam All creatures of our God and King - Lasst uns Erfreuen
At St Pete's today, we had Harvest Thanksgiving, and the church was packed, which was nice. Our offerings were:
Praise God for the harvest - Stowey For the beauty of the earth - Dix Praise and thanksgiving - Bunessan The King of love my shepherd is - Dominus Regit Me We plough the fields and scatter - Wir pflügen
Christ triumphant (Guiting Power) May the mind of Christ my Saviour (St Leonards) Meekness and majesty (Kendrick) Father, hear the prayer we offer (probably RVW's *Sussex*, but possibly Martin Shaw's *Marching*)
Quite what the sparse congregation (including 9 Indian students, however) made of the Kendrick ditty, I couldn't say...
We plough the fields is a grand hymn in some ways.
No doubt it was fairly accurate when it was written (though there have always been famines at times), but since then our wanton destruction of the climate and the environment make it sound a bit hollow nowadays...
I Need Thee Every Hour (Need)
God Has Spoken By His Prophets (Not sure what the tune was)
My Hope Is Built On Nothing Less (Solid Rock)
Jesus, The Name High Over All (Miles Lane)
I Need Thee Every Hour (Need)
God Has Spoken By His Prophets (Not sure what the tune was)
My Hope Is Built On Nothing Less (Solid Rock)
Jesus, The Name High Over All (Miles Lane)
A nicely traditional selection - I know them all!
God has spoken can be sung to several different tunes (not all at the same time, of course) - Hyfrydol, Ebenezer, and Ode to Joy are well-known.
Come ye thankful people come
Fair waved the golden corn (Holyrood)
To thee O Lord our hearts we raise (Golden Sheaves)
God whose farm is all creation
We plough the fields and scatter
As an aside, I wonder how many of these traditional Harvest hymns are still well-known?
Certainly, my generation will probably be familiar with them (I'm 72), but they were not at all familiar to the Scouts and Cubs who used to attend our Harvest Festival Mass (post-Covid, they only come to church once a year, for a Christingle service ).
Michaelmas/St Michael and All Angels/Patronal Feast/Induction of New Rector (Friday)
Christ, the fair glory of the holy angels (Caelites plaudant)
As Jacob with travel was weary one day (Jacob's Ladder)
Strengthen for service, Lord (Malabar)
Lord, you give the great commission (Garamond Chapel)
Ye watchers and ye holy ones (Lasst uns erfreuen)
Choral:
Gounod: Quatrième messe solennelle: Messe chorale sur l'intonation de la liturgie catholique
Jozef Swider: Laudate Dominum de caelis (2006)
Byrd: Ave verum corpus
Kathryn Rose: Angelis suis (2018)
As it's the first Sunday of the month, we had Evensong at St Pete's, at which our offerings were:
Come, ye thankful people, come - St George's, Windsor God whose farm is all creation - Gott Will's Machen For the healing of the nations - Alleluia Dulce Carmen Be still, for the presence of the Lord - Be Still
Psalm 65 - chant by Elvey
and our usual chants for the Mag & Nunc; the Nunc one is by Farrant, but I can't remember who wrote the Mag one.
Just out of interest @Piglet, where do the hymns occur in your local Evensong?
The Tin Tabernacle of My Youth usually had five - a processional/entrance hymn, one after the Third Collect, one after the prayers before the sermon, one after the sermon (during which the collection was taken), and one after the blessing, to allow the choir to escape in a dignified manner (!).
Evensong was, I should add, the only adult service of the day, the morning service being *Children's Church*.
Give Thanks to the Lord Our God and King (His love endures for ever) We Plough the Fields King of Kings (Majesty, God of Heaven living in me) I Stand Amazed (How marvellous) I Will Offer Up My Life in Spirit and Truth
"At the Name of Jesus" / KING'S WESTON
Psalm 78:1-4, 23-16, chanted
"Sing ye faithful, sing with gladness" / FINNIAN
"Deck thyself my soul with gladness" / SCHMUECKE DICH
"All hail the power of Jesus' name" / CORONATION
Choral: "In paths of beauty let us walk" by Gordon Young
That was a very sedate rendition! We used to sing it rather rumbustiously and when it came to 'Tramp Tramp Tramp' we would all stamp our feet loudly. Then the 'Hark Hark Hark' bit often sounded like 'Car Car Car'!
What has happened to the great traditional hymns I grew up singing in church and which I enjoyed hearing on the Songs of Praise tv programme? Most churches seem to settle for 'songs' with rather trite words and what I would call pop music. Is that what people really want? I certainly don't want to go to church to be 'entertained' by guitars, drums and a wannabe teenage band. Nothing against teenagers, but my tastes as an adult have changed from those days and I feel the need for more adult worship. There, I feel better having got that off my chest. Probably nobody agrees with my rant.
What has happened to the great traditional hymns I grew up singing in church and which I enjoyed hearing on the Songs of Praise tv programme? Most churches seem to settle for 'songs' with rather trite words and what I would call pop music. Is that what people really want? I certainly don't want to go to church to be 'entertained' by guitars, drums and a wannabe teenage band. Nothing against teenagers, but my tastes as an adult have changed from those days and I feel the need for more adult worship. There, I feel better having got that off my chest. Probably nobody agrees with my rant.
Did you have particular examples of old hymns you miss? I think if you look back in this thread you'll see a healthy selection of hymns long out of copyright, and (in my case particularly) a good smattering of metrical psalms of even greater vintage.
We sing both, mostly leaning towards the "hymns" side.
If you want to see some good hymn singing (and live in the UK with access to BBC iPlayer"), look up the Welsh-language programme "Dechrau Canu Dechrau Canmol". There's often some inspiring stuff there.
What has happened to the great traditional hymns I grew up singing in church and which I enjoyed hearing on the Songs of Praise tv programme? Most churches seem to settle for 'songs' with rather trite words and what I would call pop music. Is that what people really want? I certainly don't want to go to church to be 'entertained' by guitars, drums and a wannabe teenage band. Nothing against teenagers, but my tastes as an adult have changed from those days and I feel the need for more adult worship. There, I feel better having got that off my chest. Probably nobody agrees with my rant.
Hardly. You're in an unfortunate place if where you are "most" churches have gone the "worship band" route. I associate this with evangelical churches and generally find that music elsewhere is more traditional, if equally varying in quality.
Because it was Harvest (apparently) we sang "The Heavens are Telling" from Haydn's Creation in place of the final voluntary yesterday. Interesting challenge doing that after one pre-service rehearsal. Our director of music is - not inclined to be limited by worries about what the choir can manage.
I won’t try to list what we sang in church yesterday. We’ve had an artist in residence from South Africa for a few weeks, and what we sang were mostly original songs. I can report that it was wonderful, though.
And I can report that went to my aunt’s funeral on Saturday. It was held in a large room of the retirement community where she lived for many years, so hymns were accompanied by recordings. (More on that bellow.)
We sang:
“God of Grace and God of Glory”/CWM RHONDDA
“How Great Thou Art”
“Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee”/HYMN TO JOY
“Lift High the Cross”/CRUCIFER
On the subject of recorded music, my aunt had been a church organist (and a very good one) for much of her life. When going through some of her things in the days after she died, my cousins found a flash drive with recordings of her playing. They used those recordings for the pre-service music. So my aunt played for her own funeral—an outcome I think she would have wholly approved of.
Sorry, I thought it would belong in Ecclesiantics. Maybe it could be moved if wished.
A "Hymns I Miss" thread absolutely would belong in Ecclesiantics, but the discussion needs to be on a new separate thread and not on this one which is about What We Sing At Church.
If it's something you would all like to discuss I can use the first bit of @rhubarb 's post to make the new thread. Let me know if you'd like me to do this. The rest of the post is a rant about other songs/forms of worship and rants belong in Hell.
It's worth noting what @Arethosemyfeet says - if you look back on this thread there are a number of older hymns mentioned.
Just out of interest @Piglet, where do the hymns occur in your local Evensong?
One after the opening sentences and before the bidding prayer and General Confession; one after the second set of Responses; one after the Intercessions; and one after the blessing (if there's a priest there) or the Grace (if there isn't).
To be honest, I'd prefer if there weren't so many: the one after the Intercessions (listed on the order of service as the Offertory Hymn) really isn't necessary. I suppose because the congregation is mostly made up of what we loosely call the choir*, the idea is that we want to have a decent sing! We use the same chants every time for the canticles, with different ones for the Psalms, and there's no anthem. I'd love it if we could be a bit more ambitious, but we really don't have the resources.
* we don't sit as a choir, we just plant ourselves where we like.
ISTM that the first hymn should come after the V & R *O Lord, open thou our lips. And our mouth shall show forth thy praise etc.*, IYSWIM.
At Our Place's said Evensong (monthly), we began the service with *O Lord open etc.*, then sang the Office Hymn, and after that sat down for the Psalm.
I recall the Office Hymn being sung before the Magnificat in my younger days but usually it comes before the Psalms now. Does anyone remember the 'vesper' hymn sung kneeling after the blessing at Evensong? Often one of the more sentimental type of evening hymn 😏
The hymn comes after the opening "O Lord open our lips" in Vat2 Evening Prayer. It was moved to there from before the Magnificat to bring into focus the saint or feast of the day right at the start. The same with those religious orders that have their own versions of the Liturgy of the Hours. Incense, where used is prepared during the Magnificat antiphon and for RCs always was.
I was told that the use of incense during or just before the Magnificat was to prepare the sanctuary for the offering of prayer which (in the RC service) follows immediately (have I got that right?).
In Anglican Evensong, the Magnificat is followed by the second Lesson etc. etc., so the point of the incense is lost.
I was told that the use of incense during or just before the Magnificat was to prepare the sanctuary for the offering of prayer which (in the RC service) follows immediately (have I got that right?).
In Anglican Evensong, the Magnificat is followed by the second Lesson etc. etc., so the point of the incense is lost.
I have no idea. I thought incense was used at Vespers to echo the psalm verse about prayer rising like an evening sacrifice. So it isn't used during Matins.
I was told that the use of incense during or just before the Magnificat was to prepare the sanctuary for the offering of prayer which (in the RC service) follows immediately (have I got that right?).
In Anglican Evensong, the Magnificat is followed by the second Lesson etc. etc., so the point of the incense is lost.
I have no idea. I thought incense was used at Vespers to echo the psalm verse about prayer rising like an evening sacrifice. So it isn't used during Matins.
Choral Matins is a rare beast these days, but when I’ve attended on whe incense was used, it was during the Te Deum
There's a weekly service at St Mary-le-Tower in Ipswich, the "civic church" of the town. Unless it's moved up the candle since I was there, incense may not be in evidence.
St Mary-at-the-Elms (a much smaller and higher church) has Sung Mass each Sunday but I don't know if that's choral - possibly not.
Mattins (anglican) at a western English cathedral was at one time sung solemnly on the odd occasion. Incense was used at the Benedictus although I remember it being swung about during the Te Deum after Evensong on major feasts.
I'm just back from a jaunt to Paisley Abbey to sing Evensong celebrating Dr George McPhee's 60th anniversary(!) as their organist and choirmaster. The music was:
Introit: O for a closer walk with God - Stanford
Preces & Responses: George McPhee
Psalm 138 - Cutler
Magnificat & Nunc Dimittis - Dyson in D
Anthems: A Hymn of God's Love - Peter Nardone A Celtic Prayer - George McPhee
Hymns: O Worship the King - Hanover Jesus lives! thy terrors now - tune by George McPhee Ye holy angels bright - Darwall's 148th
It was rather fun, and though I say it what shouldn't, we sang rather nicely.
October 8th, Pentecost 19 Hymns
Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness, / Was lebet
Alleluia, alleluia, give thanks to the to the risen Lord, / Alleluia, alleluia
God has spoken by his prophets, / Ode to Joy
Great is your (Thy) faithfulness, / Faithfulness Choir
God, creator and lawgiver, / Palmer, Green
Teach me thy way, O Lord, / Arthur Crook, H. A. Chambers
Comments
Ah, I didn't take "the bearer of the Holy Word" to mean Mary. I actually thought that was a reference to Jesus himself.
In the UK.
My suspicion is that a thread on that will turn into yet another rehash of the problems with “I Vow the Thee, My Country.”
The idea of having a thread devoted to what we sang as children, on the other hand, could be fun.
God is here, as we his people (Blaenwern)
At the name of Jesus (Camberwell)
Take my life ( Nottingham)
There is a redeemer
All hail the power of Jesus’ name ( Diadem)
Hymns are currently being chosen by our pianist, as we are in musical interregnum. No sung mass settings or anthem.
Introit: For the beauty of the earth - Rutter
Preces & Responses - Clucas
Psalm 67 - chant by Garrett
Mag & Nunc: Sumsion in A
Anthem: The heavens are telling - Haydn
Hymns:
For the fruits of all creation - East Acklam
All creatures of our God and King - Lasst uns Erfreuen
At St Pete's today, we had Harvest Thanksgiving, and the church was packed, which was nice. Our offerings were:
Praise God for the harvest - Stowey
For the beauty of the earth - Dix
Praise and thanksgiving - Bunessan
The King of love my shepherd is - Dominus Regit Me
We plough the fields and scatter - Wir pflügen
Christ triumphant (Guiting Power)
May the mind of Christ my Saviour (St Leonards)
Meekness and majesty (Kendrick)
Father, hear the prayer we offer (probably RVW's *Sussex*, but possibly Martin Shaw's *Marching*)
Quite what the sparse congregation (including 9 Indian students, however) made of the Kendrick ditty, I couldn't say...
“Sing to the Lord of harvest” - Ellacombe.
“God of science” - Rend Collective.
“Praise and thanksgiving” - Bunessan.
“O Lord of heaven and earth and sea” - Almsgiving.
“I hear creation groaning” - Salley Gardens.
We plough the fields” - Wir pflugen.
To God be the glory
At the name of Jesus
I have a dream a man once said
Teach us, O loving heart of Christ
Forth in the peace of Christ we go
No doubt it was fairly accurate when it was written (though there have always been famines at times), but since then our wanton destruction of the climate and the environment make it sound a bit hollow nowadays...
I Need Thee Every Hour (Need)
God Has Spoken By His Prophets (Not sure what the tune was)
My Hope Is Built On Nothing Less (Solid Rock)
Jesus, The Name High Over All (Miles Lane)
A nicely traditional selection - I know them all!
God has spoken can be sung to several different tunes (not all at the same time, of course) - Hyfrydol, Ebenezer, and Ode to Joy are well-known.
Come ye thankful people come
Fair waved the golden corn (Holyrood)
To thee O Lord our hearts we raise (Golden Sheaves)
God whose farm is all creation
We plough the fields and scatter
Certainly, my generation will probably be familiar with them (I'm 72), but they were not at all familiar to the Scouts and Cubs who used to attend our Harvest Festival Mass (post-Covid, they only come to church once a year, for a Christingle service
Christ, the fair glory of the holy angels (Caelites plaudant)
As Jacob with travel was weary one day (Jacob's Ladder)
Strengthen for service, Lord (Malabar)
Lord, you give the great commission (Garamond Chapel)
Ye watchers and ye holy ones (Lasst uns erfreuen)
Choral:
Gounod: Quatrième messe solennelle: Messe chorale sur l'intonation de la liturgie catholique
Jozef Swider: Laudate Dominum de caelis (2006)
Byrd: Ave verum corpus
Kathryn Rose: Angelis suis (2018)
Come, ye thankful people, come - St George's, Windsor
God whose farm is all creation - Gott Will's Machen
For the healing of the nations - Alleluia Dulce Carmen
Be still, for the presence of the Lord - Be Still
Psalm 65 - chant by Elvey
and our usual chants for the Mag & Nunc; the Nunc one is by Farrant, but I can't remember who wrote the Mag one.
The Tin Tabernacle of My Youth usually had five - a processional/entrance hymn, one after the Third Collect, one after the prayers before the sermon, one after the sermon (during which the collection was taken), and one after the blessing, to allow the choir to escape in a dignified manner (!).
Evensong was, I should add, the only adult service of the day, the morning service being *Children's Church*.
Give Thanks to the Lord Our God and King (His love endures for ever)
We Plough the Fields
King of Kings (Majesty, God of Heaven living in me)
I Stand Amazed (How marvellous)
I Will Offer Up My Life in Spirit and Truth
"At the Name of Jesus" / KING'S WESTON
Psalm 78:1-4, 23-16, chanted
"Sing ye faithful, sing with gladness" / FINNIAN
"Deck thyself my soul with gladness" / SCHMUECKE DICH
"All hail the power of Jesus' name" / CORONATION
Choral: "In paths of beauty let us walk" by Gordon Young
Choir sang Go Down Moses arranged by Mark Hayes.
I stepped out during the Hymn of the Day, just can't remember it.
Last hymn was We are Marching in the Light of God.
People came out of the service singing that song.
That was a very sedate rendition! We used to sing it rather rumbustiously and when it came to 'Tramp Tramp Tramp' we would all stamp our feet loudly. Then the 'Hark Hark Hark' bit often sounded like 'Car Car Car'!
Did you have particular examples of old hymns you miss? I think if you look back in this thread you'll see a healthy selection of hymns long out of copyright, and (in my case particularly) a good smattering of metrical psalms of even greater vintage.
If you want to see some good hymn singing (and live in the UK with access to BBC iPlayer"), look up the Welsh-language programme "Dechrau Canu Dechrau Canmol". There's often some inspiring stuff there.
Hardly. You're in an unfortunate place if where you are "most" churches have gone the "worship band" route. I associate this with evangelical churches and generally find that music elsewhere is more traditional, if equally varying in quality.
Because it was Harvest (apparently) we sang "The Heavens are Telling" from Haydn's Creation in place of the final voluntary yesterday. Interesting challenge doing that after one pre-service rehearsal. Our director of music is - not inclined to be limited by worries about what the choir can manage.
"Hymns I Miss" is a subject for another thread, please. Rants about songs and/or worship styles belong in Hell.
Nenya - Ecclesiantics Host
[Doffs Hostly Mitre]
O I dunno - your post could well form the OP of a new Hymns I Miss thread, if you felt like starting it.
And I can report that went to my aunt’s funeral on Saturday. It was held in a large room of the retirement community where she lived for many years, so hymns were accompanied by recordings. (More on that bellow.)
We sang:
“God of Grace and God of Glory”/CWM RHONDDA
“How Great Thou Art”
“Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee”/HYMN TO JOY
“Lift High the Cross”/CRUCIFER
On the subject of recorded music, my aunt had been a church organist (and a very good one) for much of her life. When going through some of her things in the days after she died, my cousins found a flash drive with recordings of her playing. They used those recordings for the pre-service music. So my aunt played for her own funeral—an outcome I think she would have wholly approved of.
If it's something you would all like to discuss I can use the first bit of @rhubarb 's post to make the new thread. Let me know if you'd like me to do this. The rest of the post is a rant about other songs/forms of worship and rants belong in Hell.
It's worth noting what @Arethosemyfeet says - if you look back on this thread there are a number of older hymns mentioned.
Nenya - Ecclesiantics Host
One after the opening sentences and before the bidding prayer and General Confession; one after the second set of Responses; one after the Intercessions; and one after the blessing (if there's a priest there) or the Grace (if there isn't).
To be honest, I'd prefer if there weren't so many: the one after the Intercessions (listed on the order of service as the Offertory Hymn) really isn't necessary. I suppose because the congregation is mostly made up of what we loosely call the choir*, the idea is that we want to have a decent sing! We use the same chants every time for the canticles, with different ones for the Psalms, and there's no anthem. I'd love it if we could be a bit more ambitious, but we really don't have the resources.
* we don't sit as a choir, we just plant ourselves where we like.
ISTM that the first hymn should come after the V & R *O Lord, open thou our lips. And our mouth shall show forth thy praise etc.*, IYSWIM.
At Our Place's said Evensong (monthly), we began the service with *O Lord open etc.*, then sang the Office Hymn, and after that sat down for the Psalm.
In Anglican Evensong, the Magnificat is followed by the second Lesson etc. etc., so the point of the incense is lost.
I have no idea. I thought incense was used at Vespers to echo the psalm verse about prayer rising like an evening sacrifice. So it isn't used during Matins.
Choral Matins is a rare beast these days, but when I’ve attended on whe incense was used, it was during the Te Deum
St Mary-at-the-Elms (a much smaller and higher church) has Sung Mass each Sunday but I don't know if that's choral - possibly not.
Introit: O for a closer walk with God - Stanford
Preces & Responses: George McPhee
Psalm 138 - Cutler
Magnificat & Nunc Dimittis - Dyson in D
Anthems:
A Hymn of God's Love - Peter Nardone
A Celtic Prayer - George McPhee
Hymns:
O Worship the King - Hanover
Jesus lives! thy terrors now - tune by George McPhee
Ye holy angels bright - Darwall's 148th
It was rather fun, and though I say it what shouldn't, we sang rather nicely.
Hymns
Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness, / Was lebet
Alleluia, alleluia, give thanks to the to the risen Lord, / Alleluia, alleluia
God has spoken by his prophets, / Ode to Joy
Great is your (Thy) faithfulness, / Faithfulness
Choir
God, creator and lawgiver, / Palmer, Green
Teach me thy way, O Lord, / Arthur Crook, H. A. Chambers